VS.

[ryezen]

ok if these char. fought seriously w/ each other, who do you think would win and why? (i wont give my opinion yet since i asked the question :lol: )

Saitoh vs. Aoshi

Soujiro vs. Usui

Shouzo vs. Sano

Hiko vs. Shishio

[Tamachan]

1. Saitoh. No question.

2. Soujiro. Because the only reason he didn't defeat Kenshin was that he got psyched out, otherwise his skills are probably on par if not better.

3. I can't remember who the first dude is ^^;

4. Hiko. Because he's the MAN :B:

I think the more interesting question is who would have won the fight between Saitoh and Kenshin, if it hadn't been stopped?

[ryezen]

Originally posted by Tamachan
I think the more interesting question is who would have won the fight between Saitoh and Kenshin, if it hadn't been stopped?

yes, that would be interesting... but that would need a separate thread

right now im trying to get a poll... i didnt put a Kenshin vs. Saitoh bec. like i said, it would need a separate thread - though as of now, i think Kenshin would... (hey shut up)

oh, and Shouzo is one of Shougo's followers - supposed to be Magdaria's protector.

[Edited by ryezen on 20-08-2000 at 01:58 PM]

[Tamachan]

Oh, the bandanna dude? Sano would win, if his hand was healed.

[Draco]

1) Saitoh
2) Soujiro
3) Sano
3) Hiko

[ryezen]

reasons please! :D

i dont care if you have to repeat those said by the others, i still wanna know what u think! :D

[Yuusuke]

K. . .

Hm. . . .

Aoshi would win against Saitoh because. . . he has more moves then just Gatotsu ^_^;;

Soujiro would defeat Usui because he's already been stated as the strongest of the Ju Pon Gatana.

Sano against Shouzo, Sano would win (with his right hand healed or not). Why. . .because of the way the fight was going (to start with).

Hiko would defeat Shishio, because he can kill. Oh, and he's the MAN (As said by Tamachan) :)
__________________
"If you use all Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu's fighting techniques to attack all nine vital points, at the same moment, it will be impossible to defend against. . . That was Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu, Kuzu Ryu Sen! It's my best, and coolest move."
Hiko Seijuro

[Draco]

How about Kenshin VS Hiko?

[Draco]

and throw in shogo

[ryezen]

im trying not to put my opinion but i feel the urge to:

Kenshin vs. Hiko = kenshin already defeated Hiko. aside from the Souzo/Sano all the rest havnt fought each other yet(i think)

as for Shougo... Kenshin is the only one who can beat him (my opinion of course but lets see...)

[Yuusuke]

Hm. . .what about if Hiko were to use the Ama Kakeru Ryu no Hirameki as well? ^_^;;

Anyways, I believe that, if both Kenshin and Hiko were using the same technique, Hiko would win (as he said, his Kuzu Ryu Sen can defeat Kenshin's always, which would probably apply to most all other techniques as well).

As for Shougo versus Kenshin. . . I can't really say :(
I have the episodes for the Shougo story, but have only skimmed through them and not really watched each episode fully.
__________________
"The Mesopotamia loves Lorelei. It knows that we've come to take her away."
Luchs

[ryezen]

the succession technique is more of a defensive move. Kuzu Ryu Sen is the offensive. but since Kenshin is rather small, his Kuzu Ryu Sen isnt as powerful as Hiko's. so if kenshin were to do a Kuzu Ryu Sen on Hiko, Hiko could easily defeat Kenshin with the succession technique.

but then again... if both used the same technique... i still think kenshin would win - bec. his sword is the last (and perhaps) the best sword made by Shaku Arai! :D

[Yuusuke]

Hm. . .yeah, I guess that the sword used would make a big difference. (o.O)

Oh well. ^_^;;

So how about if we gave Hiko the sword that Shishio had. . . 'cept minus the human oil?
__________________
"Don't worry, we're not going to die for you." Bloodberry
"Please, Lorelei. Block off the ship's computer and make it hold off the attack!" Cherry
"Please! Just for a second!" Lime

[ryezen]

hmmm... both swords are made by the same master craftsman?!?!

then it would come down to who feels he has more reason to live - Kenshin again!

[Yuusuke]

Well, of course, Kenshin always wins the fights that count. . .just like Ranma ^_^;;
*cough*nomatterhowbetterRyougais,Ranmaalwayswins*cough*
Of course, most any of Kenshin's fights count since if he loses, he dies.
__________________
"Ok, let's go everyone! Let's go save Lorelei!"
Lime

[ryezen]

yes, i believe so... even the succession technique has its setbacks - for one, you walk a thin line between life and death and it cannot be performed with a negative mindset

[Tamachan]

Nah, I think Hiko would definitely win. His skill level is at the very least on par with Kenshin's, if not better...remember he pretty much trains constantly whereas Kenshin doesn't do much except fight when he has to. He consistently whupped Kenshin's butt while he was training him up for the Sucession technique. Add to that the fact that his sword strokes have much more power behind them...personally I don't think the sword makes THAT much of a difference, since a master will still be better with any old crap sword than a novice with a top notch sword.

Oh yeah, and also, he's THE MAN :B:

[ryezen]

but in the case of Kenshin, he aint a novice. and he's butt was constantly whupped bec. kenshin was afraid of killing his master, plus he didnt have any reason to fight seriously. however later on , he realizes that he has to live and thus finds the courage and strength to overcome his doubts and defeat Hiko.

[Boltarion]

I agree that Kenshin would win if it was an all out fight, especially since now Kenshin knows how to counter Hiko's best offensive move with the succession technique. And if Kenshin started going into hitokiri mode, I don't think that hiko would last too long.

[Yuusuke]

But would Hitokiri mode really help Kenshin? Didn't he say that he found a power greater then his. . . desperation (the greater power being the will to live) and that he couldn't use the Ama Kakeru Ryu no Hirameki without a clear mind (well, quoting ryezen, you can't use it 'with a negative mindset')
__________________
"Please, please forgive them! They are innocent! Please try to understand how they feel!"
Lorelei

[ryezen]

yes, the succession technique would be the ultimate technique. that is why Kenshin went to Hiko to learn it. however there is a chance that Kenshin could win against Hiko as a hitoriki. first he will not care if he kills Hiko, second he'll use the cutting edge of his sword. third, he is a master of hiten mitsurugi ryu and can anticipate the effect of any(?) move Hiko will come up with.

however, when it comes down to using the succession, Hiko will have an edge over Kenshin (assuming Kenshin were hitoriki at that moment)

[SamIam]

1. Saitoh would win over Aoshi, because he is craftier and his zero-point stance would catch Aoshi off guard (Aoshi would be relying on his shorter swords to make close in fighting his specialty and could be lulled. Into complacency.

2. Soujiro would win hands down... his "god speed" could have defeated Kenshin if he had gone all out in his first clash (first round of the second battle).

3. My best guess for this one is that it would be a draw in the sense that both would die... but Sano would live by a few seconds!

4. Shishio would win... he is ruthless, inhumanly strong and fast AND you did say serious. In which case, the fight would probably be much shorter (the only reason Kenshin won was because Shishio had self combusted). In an all out short fight, Shishio would have taken down Kenshin.

and as a side note, Hiko would win... he might be crippled, but if Kenshin used his sakabatou reverse sword, both blades would connect and Hiko's is ... errr sharp.

SamIam

[Draco]

Originally posted by ryezen
yes, the succession technique would be the ultimate technique. that is why Kenshin went to Hiko to learn it. however there is a chance that Kenshin could win against Hiko as a hitoriki. first he will not care if he kills Hiko, second he'll use the cutting edge of his sword. third, he is a master of hiten mitsurugi ryu and can anticipate the effect of any(?) move Hiko will come up with.

however, when it comes down to using the succession, Hiko will have an edge over Kenshin (assuming Kenshin were hitoriki at that moment)

i think is might be the other way around, Hiko did teach everything Kenshin knows so HE or both can probably anticipate the other's moves

[ryezen]

Originally posted by Draco
i think is might be the other way around, Hiko did teach everything Kenshin knows so HE or both can probably anticipate the other's moves



no not "everything" just the Mitsurugi ryu techniques - not how he thinks or fights. i say kenshin still has a great advantage over hiko

[Draco]

They both have there way of thinking and fighting (it would be great to know more about hiko) true, but they both follow the way of Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu, so their way of thinking and fighting, isn't that different,

I think Hiko does have a part of how Kenshin thinks, in the 1st ova **SPOILER**, We see a flashback of how Kenshin left Hiko, they argued and Hiko told Kenshin "The sword is a weapon! Kenjitsu is a killing technique" "You kill to protect. Kill so that other may live, that is Kenjtsu"

This little lession has a great impact on Kenshin and thats why he's in confict with himself for the first 2 eps, cause well, he kill whoever he is instructed to going against the way he was taught

[ryezen]

thought both share the same techniques it does not necessarily mean they have the same mind set - take Shougo for example.

as for kensin... well he is a different fighter now. he had gained tremendous experience as hitoriki and with the knowledge of the succession technique, he is practically the best. though his non-killing attitude may be his weakness, his strenth is his own will to live - and as proven countless times in the series, he does prevail over near impossible odds.

[SamIam]

... I like "tournament style" anime, and have watched a fair cross section of what is out there and have come up with a few conclusions of what governs a win or loss between two powerful contenders.

1. Fair or not, the Protagonist of any series will not loose a critical battle (which is unfortunate if you know how long a series will run).

2. The better the fighter, the "cooler" or closer to the human ideal.

3. The trend for the character's morals vs. the classification of hero/villian, determining the ultimate longevity (read lifespan) of the character. The moral here, if you are fundementally good, you will be given a chance for redemption.

4. The hero will often contend with a major character early in a series and get "serious lumps" ... but live to improve.
In fact, the hero or heroine will fight over the level of his/her abilities (and be rescued from almost certain death, to improve. (although I admit, Kenshin was pretty good not to do too much of this).

5. If two really good contenders fight AND BOTH ARE GOOD, then the protagonist will win or draw. Note that if the skills really close, there will the use of environmental factors which would interfere with the perfect fight mindset.

... so what this all comes down two is relative differences instead of absolute i.e. in the real world, there will be no practical instance of a truly immoveable object vs. an irristable force... (by practical, I mean should the above occur, the most likely outcome would be a catastrophic and absolute conversion of matter into energy ...zzzzt end of story)

So if you create a scenario between two such characters as Hiko ande Kenshi, it might help to create the scenario complete with known variables just prior to the actual fight. Some variables that come to mind...

Kenshin:

1. uses sakabatou or not
2. what stage of skill dev. i.e. episode
3. mind set ( calm, aggitated, distracted), (Rouroni vs. Hitokiri) (feeling for his master)
4. environment
5. health just prior to match.
6. "will factor"

Hiko:

1. is he drinking
2. skill dev.
3. mindset mind set ( calm, aggitated, distracted), (feeling for his pupil)
4. enviro
5. health
6. "will factor"

It would be interesting to plug this into a simulation with all available data to see what the hypothetical outcome would be...

SamIam

[Avetar]

I think Hiko would win, this is based on that kenshin is to dependent on reading his enemys moves.
Further more, kenshin might have gained a lot of experience when he was the Batosai but Hiko must also learnt alot when he was walking around Japan.
And somehow Hikos swordskill seems higher then kenshin... (this is just i feeling i get when i see him fight)

[tekblade]

i would love to see hiko go up against shishio, it would be a cool fight since i think hiko wont mind actually killin him like kenshin would, but thats just me

[Draco]

i think hiko would win with out braking a sweat... that how much i idolize this man

[tekblade]

i dunno shishio might actually put up a good fight since hes so buff and has those fire stuff.

[Avetar]

to bad we wont se it happen :(

[Draco]

I know... :bawling:

[tekblade]

well we can always beg the producers who made rk..

[Avetar]

Well all we can do is agree on the Seijuro is the greatest ;)

[Ura]

In my mindset I can really only comment on no.1 at the moment. I'd say Aoshi too, hes a good all rounder, with his kodachi for defense and kempo for offence he's pretty hard to beat.

[tekblade]

but then he has a really open area to get hit when hes on the offense though, if you remember the fight with him and kenshin for the 1st time he talked about it all and stuff.

[Ura]

But Kenshin only picked up on that with his superior perception skills. Also Kenshin barely survived it and could only slow it with his sheath

[tekblade]

heh you got me :D

[psycnarf]

Originally posted by ryezen
ok if these char. fought seriously w/ each other, who do you think would win and why? (i wont give my opinion yet since i asked the question :lol: )

Saitoh vs. Aoshi

Soujiro vs. Usui

Shouzo vs. Sano

Hiko vs. Shishio

Saitoh's moves are based more on power and force while Aoshi's moves are based more on speed and finece. Both seems to be good in hand to hand combatbut I think that saitoh would win coz he's sharper than Aoshi.

The reason why Soujiro is so dangerous is becoz nobody can read his mind coz he aint got no feelings. I believe that Usui would have an easier time following Soujiro's movements than Kenshin coz he doesnt rely on his eyes but Soujiro would win.

Sano did win over Shouzo (well sort off).

Hiko would win coz he's alot better than Kenshin.

for the added questions

Saitoh vs. Kenshin cont.

Hiko Vs. Kenshin

Saitoh would win coz Kenshin was already stabbed and even though Saito didnt hit any vital organs kenshin will pass out eventually from that wound. And also Saito is better in hand to hand combat than Kenshin even if kenshin uses his sheath.

a)Hiko vs. Battousai - Hiko would win coz Battousai cannot use the Amakekeru Ryu no Hirumeki coz the battosai mentality is incorrect as Kenshin said therefore Kenshin has no defense againts Hiko's Kuzo Ryuzen as well as the Amakekeru ryu no hirumeki. The only way battousai would win is if he was able to cut Hiko's sword in half but I dont think that would happen.

b)Hiko vs. Kenshin(Master version) - Hiko would still win becoz is better than kenshin in terms of speed, strength, and endurace. The reason why kenshin got his ass kicked when he was duelling hiko the 1st time was because hiko is better and not becoz he was afraid to hurt his master and that he wasnt taking the fight seriously. Kenshin was taking the fight seriously that he was so concentrated in his move that he forgot about his landing and all he could do is damage Hiko's arm protector. Another point is that Hiko was able to get up after kenshin hit him w/ te Amakekeru and Hiko did say that he was never in any mortal danger.

My addition to the vs.

If Toki didnt interrupt Kenshin and Shigure's duel in the RK movie who would win?

[Ura]

And Saitohs swords had a tendancy to break, Saitohs good with his fists but nowhere near Aoshis Kempo mastery. Saitoh also relies too much on forward attacks, he never comes from the side, straight or up. Aoshi could evade the strikes and land a few kicks into Saitohs exposed back (Guess who my fav character is? :) Saitohs a close second)

[Darklightz]

1)Saitoh VS Aoshi

Saitoh is a good fighter but it seems all his techniques revolves around attacking while Aoshi has a defensive technique(the water flow movement) that would allow him to evade Saitoh's attacks.It would all revolve around Saitoh's first Gatotsu.

2)Soujiro VS Usui

So Usui can predict his opponent's move,it still doesn't help much if he's not fast enough to block it.As far as I know Soujiro if the strongest character in the Kenshin series

3)Shouzo VS Sano

Never seen Shouzo...

4)Hiko VS Shishio

Hiko of course!He is after all the master of the Hiten Mitsurugi,so I guess if his "insolent pupil" can beat Shishi,so can Hiko.

[ryezen]

"And Saitohs swords had a tendancy to break"

the first time his sword broke was bec. it was unable to handle the power of Saito's technique. the second time was when he went head to head with Kenshin (now we know kenshin has the habit of breaking others swords as well)...

now Saitoh's sword is "unnamed" yet has been guided by his hand ever since the end of the war. another mention of the swords ability comes from soujiro when he says "the sword becomes a legend itself depending on who wields it" (or something to that degree).

now during the first battle with Soujiro, they both do a bathow-jutsu. kenshin using a sword made by Shaku Arai, and Soujiro used Shishio's sword (i cant remember if it was also by Shaku Arai, but for the sake of argument lets assume it was).

remember, kenshins sword breaks...soujiro's does not (though it gets chipped off) meaning Soujiro's attack is stronger than kenshins.

anyway my point here is, although the sword does have an important role, its defeating an opponent ultimately falls on the fighter's skill.


"Saitohs good with his fists but nowhere near Aoshis Kempo mastery."

Saito is tough, and does not know how to quit. he will not find a way, he will make a way. Aoshi is overconfident of his skills, Saito uses his brain.


"Saitoh also relies too much on forward attacks, he never comes from the side, straight or up. Aoshi could evade the strikes and land a few kicks into Saitohs exposed back"

actually Saito is very quick, he may have a few stances, but he is quick enough to use those against his opponent. against shishio, who could break down a technique by witnessing it once, Saito may have a problem, but agianst Aoshi, thats another situation.

[tekblade]

well we hafta remember that each character was thought up to have their own strenght and weaknesses. yeah saitoh is good, but he only has that style where he charges at you. sure it may be not much, but it packs a punch and can be preformed at certain angles. for aoishi hes good with his short swords, but im not sure if he can fist fight well, but he did teach hanya so it shows. but im wondering if they did fight if saioths attack would hit aoishi during his waterflow attack he used on kenshin. i think itd be intresting to see it though. 2 really different techniques going at each other.

[psycnarf]

How come nobody's commenting on my question???

[Ura]

Originally posted by psycnarf
How come nobody's commenting on my question???

Because I haven't seen the movie lately :P I unfortunately don't own a copy

[tekblade]

what was the question? :heh:

[ryezen]

Originally posted by psycnarf

My addition to the vs.

If Toki didnt interrupt Kenshin and Shigure's duel in the RK movie who would win?



yes kenshin would have won.

now if you go back to the scene where kenshin jumps in the air Shigure says that he has already seen that move and jumps to meet kenshin in the air with two swords. Now kenshin uses another version of the technique and blocks Shigure's double sword attack, surprising Sano, who claims that he hasnt seen that kind of attack yet.

after Shigure's attack fails, he attempts to fight kenshin again, but this is where Toki comes in. now for the sake of argument, let us assume that Toki does not stop them and the battle continues.

now at this point, both Kenshin and Shigure are already exhausted so basically, the outcome of the battle would be dicided by the (supposedly) coming attack.

now as expected, Kenshin will use the succession technique. now whether Shigure has a special technique of his own, we do not know. all i can say is he is at a disadvantage since he has not seen the amakakeru ryu no hirameki hence will not know what to expect.

[psycnarf]

Shigure did say that he knows every tech Kenshin has used so there is a posibility that he knows the Amekekeru tech. However the whilrling sword tech Kenshin used againt Shigure came out only during the movie so it is safe to say that it is a new Tech. in the RK plot.