Save the Spider or Save the Butterfly?

[Drizzten]

My favorite discussion scenes are from "Project Seeds"...

***SPOILERS!!!***










Don't look! :look:








Knives said that without the sacrifice of the butterfly, the spider dies. Vash wanted to save both, which Knives called a "contradiction." Knives paraphrased Joey by saying they must make the smallest possible sacrifice at the given time. Vash made his choice. Knives made his. Who was wrong?

[I'm not a doll]

Vash was wrong, using the good old simple logic, 0

Yet Knives was wrong because both a spider and a butterfly are so cute ^_^ \

I say knives won/was right...


Mmm it all makes sense in my head

[ussjburori]

i say knives was right. kill the killer, it will save more in the long run. i also agree with knives on the killing humans thing, if only there was more of him in the series. he is such a badass, he should've worn a black version of vash's coat. he would look just like the alternate vash bust, with different hair and no glasses of course but you get the idea.

[Trunten]

Originally posted by ussjburori
i say knives was right. kill the killer, it will save more in the long run. i also agree with knives on the killing humans thing, if only there was more of him in the series. he is such a badass,

True, true...

[RyuKenZ]

definitely, Knives was king bad-mofo, but we did not get enough of him. Anyway back on topic...I feel that Knives was right as well. I mean to always try to save the victim and keep both alive is illogical and in the end will probably get you and the one your trying to save killed...so simply kill the killer, saves the victim and makes it all just so much easier...http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/contrib/dvv/po.gif

[Drizzten]

http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/otn/evil/king.gif
*puts on his Devil's Advocate Hat*

What about the supporting organizms that live off the spider? Don't they crumble just as easily as the supporting organisms of the butterfly? Kill the spider, you also jepardize the lives of any of it's family, any organisms that lived off the spider's existence, and upset the balance of nature in the favor of the butterfly and every other organism the spider fed off of.

[ussjburori]

What about the supporting organizms that live off the spider

yeah what about them. what eats spiders? as for the spider's family, again who cares? it's a family of killers, get rid of them too. by simply getting involved at all we mess up the nature of things whether we help the butterfly or the spider. are you suggesting that we stay uninvolved all-together?

[Drizzten]

I'm saying that no matter whch side you intervene on, you hurt something. You reduce the livelihood of either organism, so you can't say one way or another which side it is better to intervene on. I think.

Vash wanted to save both. Knives killed one to save the other. Both situations are simply temporary "solutions."

[So Full of Mercy]

Taken literally I would probably kill the spider, yet killing every spider wouldn't be right...

Metaphorically, I don't think you just kill every "spider" in life, you should try to reform our spiders, sometimes killing them is the only way though... if we look at Wolfwood, he was a spider who became a butterfly, now Legato was a spider that was always going to be a spider. I say Vash was right.

[RyuKenZ]

*puts on his Devil's Advocate Hat*


you know Driz, both you and Ussj are completely right. You cannot interfere without hurting someone, so I got a real simple solution...-uck BOTH the spider and the butterfly and kill them all, I mean if you kill them all you will be hurtin everybody and therefore no one will feel left out...http://www.themelee.com/smilies/s/otn/violent/badass.gif



http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/contrib/dvv/asthanos.gif

[ussjburori]

...-uck BOTH the spider and the butterfly and kill them all, I mean if you kill them all you will be hurtin everybody and therefore no one will feel left

that's exactly what i've been saying for quite some time now. kill 'em all. but since the thread was about the lesser of 2 evils i stayed on topic.

[RyuKenZ]

yeah, I did too, but as the thought went through my mind, I began to see that the lesser of 2 evils was to really put them all out of their misery...that way they don't bother me no more:D



http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/contrib/dvv/asthanos.gif

[psycnarf]

Vash wanted to save the butterfly but Knives knows that even if Vash was able to free the butterfly it doesn't neccesarily mean that, that butterfly would never ever end up in that situation again. There was a possibility that, that stupid bug would end up on the dinner list of the spider w/c is why Knives killed the spider to ensure the safety of the butterfly. Then again If knives desperately wants to protect that butterfly he would have to kill alot of butterfly preying animals. :confused:

[RyuKenZ]

Kill em!!!!!!!!! Kill em all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D



http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/contrib/dvv/asthanos.gif

[Kawaii Miko]

Man is that all you guys ever think about: death and destruction???

I'm not going to take side in this matter, but I'll put my analysis to it.

Vash has his reasons to let the spider and the butterfly to live. And I'm not implicating that he is a nature lover of course. He wanted to save the spider's wretched soul and the butterfly's predicament, all in one. Pretty much a person who wants everything in harmony, all is peace in his world to him.

Though as Knives best put it, a contradiction for it all. The spider need to sustain food from any living insect. The butterfly is its intended prey, but an innocent being.

Vash hates to see suffering while Knives is an exact opposite.

Kawaii No Miko's judgement

I ain't no philosopher or whatsoever, but don't get me near any spiders...

Gets her giant fly swat to squish intended arachnids :naughty:

[Gundammi!]

Well when you compare the spider/butterfly situation to humans, it is alot more difficult. With the spider/butterfly, the spider has to eat the butterfly to live. Simple, I say, let nature take it's course. The spider was meant to eat butterflies. That's what it does, if it doesn't kill, it doesn't live. Should we deny one being the right to live to sustain a few more? No. If the killer must kill to live (ie.it's a predator) we should let it be. But, humans are different. In Legato's case, he kills innocent people just for the pleasure of killing. He wastes precious lives. He can die to save the others. He isn't meant to kill. He can live without killing. If we could take him into some HARDCORE therapy and reform him, he should not be killed.

Here's a better example...

You walk through the woods, you see a wolf and a deer. The wolf begins biting the deer, trying to kill it. You have a gun, you could kill the wolf and save the deer. You should let it be and let nature take it's course.

Next example...

You walk through a large city. There is a man with a high powered assault rifle killing people at random. He's doing it very quickly and killing lots of people. The police can't do anything to get near him and arrest him. You have a gun. He doesn't see you. You have a clear shot to kill him. You should take the shot and save more people from getting killed.


I'm sure it's a helluva lot more complicated than this... (holds head in pain)

[CrashXero]

In my opinion, neiter was right in doing what they did.

Knives killed the spider to save the butterfly - Vash wanted to save both.

In Knives killing the spider, other insects aside from the butterfly that may get caught in the spider's web live also - thus tilting the ecosystem slightly off balance. If this were done on a large scale, it would be catastrophic. Knives' logic - Kill the killer, save the victim. Why is this wrong? Its not wrong in human sence. Humans save each other so no one dies. We are supposed to be a superior race - invunerable to most things. In the spider/butterfly case, this is nature. The spider isn't a killer, but a predator. The butterfly is the prey.

In Vash's case, saving both can be done, but sooner or later (like posted above) The butterfly would either die from another spider, or natural causes. If you saved all the butterflies from all the spiders, then (if butterflies were the only food to a spider) the spiders would perish. In Vash's head though, saving both is what's right because that is what he was taught by Rem. If Rem hadn't been so idealistic toward Vash, me may have left the situation alone and done nothing.

~My thoughts...

It's Rem's fault that Vash can't understand that not everyone/everything can be saved. Knives was correct in the situation, however nature shouldn't be interfered with.

[RyuKenZ]

death and destruction are not all I think about, its just when you truly sit down and think about it, they are useful in so amny different ways...

anyway about this debate, well there is no side you can take without hurtin someone, there is no feasible way to save everyone, I mean the law of nature is for the survival of the fittest, take away a predators prey and they will starve, take away the predators and the prey will overpopulate and starve, so its overall a lose lose situation so either you have to kill them all, or let them sort it out as nature intended, hence the survival of the fittest


http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/contrib/dvv/asthanos.gif

[warlock]

Well, that is quite an intriguing thought??? Obviously most people would say...Save the Butterfly and kill the spider.

Well, If I was in Vash's shoes I would have done the same and free the butterfly, I don't really like stuff like that... prey and predator thingy.

Yet, as they say Survival of the fittest....the weak species would eventually end up in someone's menu. It has always been nature's law.

I myself is not very fond of spiders...I would probably end up screaming if it came in contact with me. But then again its not fitting to annihilate their species they're a part of the ecosystem and stuff like that.

As I said..hate the predator and prey stuff... but I myself can be considered a predator....for chickens, pig, cow and their edible kinds. If everybeing were just herbivorous....then again poor plant's :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D :D

[Drizzten]

There seems to be a general consensus that interfering isn't the best choice, at least in terms of animal life.

Obviously, Knives deviated from his early logic as he grew older. He began to view most life as below him, not worth saving or even helping. He became the spider. His desire overcame any reasons or doubts about the act.

Obviously, Vash changed little as he grew older. He wanted only the best for everyone since he thought everyone was worth saving. He became the butterfly. You could say the butterfly's beauty mirrored Vash's idealism.

And who won in the end?

[Kawaii Miko]

Spoil the ending and die! :devil: :lol: J/k

[Drizzten]

I DID have a spoiler warning in the initial post...but I guess it should continue on from here as well.


***SPOILERS BELOW THIS POST***

There. :D

Another thing that occured to me. Vash refused to kill. He avoided it at all costs. Yet, surely he realizes that some people can't learn from the lessons he gives and continue to hurt others. At some point, Vash has to know that those people need to be stopped. The only options are prison and killing them. To save as many people is his purpose...yet he might have saved more lives if he had taken out the bad guys as quickly as his skills allowed.

[So Full of Mercy]

In the end, Vash does kill a spider, if there is absolutely no other way, you gotta kill the spider.

[Gouki Akuma]

I think the Spider represents something more then a being in the end, he didnt acually kill the spider, but he did kill him in this way, hear me out, He killed its will which represents the spider, saving the butterfly, Although I may be looking for a meaning more deep then Trigun but thats what I would like the meaning of show to be


These are tight!
:burnup:
:mad:

[Bishdariel]

but never forget one thing! even vash cant save people who will die a natural death and i think he learned a lot while he was wandering the planet! he came over the state to save everyone, at least he came up to it to a certain point! humans are reasonable and you can change their behavior, at least you can change the behavior of most people, for example not legatos! he realised that and i think he tried everything to change someone and most of the time it worked!
he couldnt have done it this way with the spider and the butterfly.

[Daedelus]

I see the basic point they tried to show by the insect thing but I think that is a poor analogy to what happens in the series. For one thing the spider was going to eat the butterfly for survival... this usually isnt true of humans. When Knives or anyone else was killing it was only to be killing and therefore I have no problem with them being removed from society. But in the case of the insects I feel non-interferance is the best option.

[Drizzten]

Says Daedelus:
I see the basic point they tried to show by the insect thing but I think that is a poor analogy to what happens in the series. For one thing the spider was going to eat the butterfly for survival... this usually isnt true of humans. When Knives or anyone else was killing it was only to be killing and therefore I have no problem with them being removed from society.
I disagree. I got the distinct feeling that Knives was out to "relieve" humanity from it's suffering, which he saw as being alive. Therefore, he was acting within the bounds of the butterfly vs spider lesson.

[Daedelus]

A spider though doesn't relieve it's victime of suffering it kills it to eat it. Even if Knives only wanted to help humanity out he still is not a food chain predator. He doesn't have to kill for his personal survival, a spider does.

[Fairybane]

What I find strange was that even after his long years of living, Vash was still able to see worth in the individual human life...but we can just leave that as a character flaw...

Knives had it right...well righter than Vash anyhow. Kill the evil to save the innocent. Yet even then, I'd have to go with kill both. Why? You kill only the evil, the innocent become weak...no adversity kills the will to survive and endure...
You kill the evil, they cannot go on to harm more people. You kill the innocents who were previously doomed, and it ensures that 'death' and 'danger' still mean something to the survivors. An ideal situation would be to have people imperiled, scared, but never in real danger...unbeknownst to them of course...
But you keep saving people, and they'll become fat, complacent, overconfident...bla bla bla.

Yeah, I know this post is garbage, but I haven't seen a philosophical anime thread in oh so long...!

[Drizzten]

Says Daedelus:
A spider though doesn't relieve it's victime of suffering it kills it to eat it. Even if Knives only wanted to help humanity out he still is not a food chain predator. He doesn't have to kill for his personal survival, a spider does.
Of course, but from Knive's viewpoint, the butterfly was about to suffer. So he decided to be proactive and deny that suffering to occur. I think that after the events during "Project Seeds" he came to think that either humanity in general was suffering NOW...or that they would end up suffering anyway. So, he took the next step and decided to end that suffering. Certainly not for altruistic reasons, but to please his own sense of morality. Of course, he doesn't give a thought to the suffering he inflicts on friends and family...to him, they're only a thought away from death.
Says Fairybane:
Yeah, I know this post is garbage, but I haven't seen a philosophical anime thread in oh so long...!
I was bothered that this topic hadn't been brought up and discussed fully...especially since this is a main theme in the freaking anime.

[Daedelus]

I see Knives more as loathing mankind and seeing them as a blight on existence. I never in the series saw him as much of a humanitarian.... he casually extinguished people without much thought.

[Dryden-san]

Knives' problem isn't that he sees himself as part of the food chain. He believes himself to be above the natural order. As with the spider and butterfly on board the ship, he acted not as a part of the natural order, but as judge, who decides from on high who lives and who dies. In a way he elevated himself to the status of God, but there are no gods in the animal kingdom; only lifeforms that know nothing but the struggle to survive. Knives viewpoint is flawed. You can't impose morality on the natural world.

On the same note, people need to eat to survive. Is it right to kill people to save the livestock that would otherwise go in their burgers? The humans needed the plants to survive on the desert world. Of course, maybe it does seem like a good idea to kill the humans if you're one of the cattle destined for the meat grinder. Knives and Vash refer to the plants as siblings. Yet Knives hatred of humans has blinded him to the flaws in his logic. It was thanks to him that the humans crashed on the desert world, necessitating their use of the plants.

Remembe what Rem said: "We make the smallest possible sacrifice at the time." Instead of hunting the humans, Knives could have helped them learn to live without depending so much on the plants. He is supposed to be a genius after all. Vash's logic is flawed too, in a way, but he does have the right idea. You should avoid killing whenever possible, but as Legato proved, it isn't always possible. His mistake, like that of Knives, was in not remembering Rem's line about the smallest possible sacrifice. It is not until the end of the series that he accepts that, along with the possiblility of fixing one's mistakes. Only with that entire ideal in mind can you build a working philosophy.

[Ikari_Asuka_Langley]

SPOILERS!!!



Um aaanyway... Vash was a complete moron for conceding to those idealistic fantasies of Rem (sure he was well meaning but a moron none the less) He signed his death warrant by allowing Knives to survive and at that point because of his idiocy disserves to die... he is the weaker of the species.

Knives is a God among men so to speak it has been proven that he is above the laws of nature... of aging and decrepitating.... His people were being enslaved and used for the rights of something that was biologically inferior... he was justified in wanting to destroy all of humanity.

But if we're talking about spiders and butterflies still... don't intervene that would disrupt the natural order of things... just like the butterfly was destined to perish as prey so was Vash destined to be killed by a spider... Knives destroyed one spider (how he send Legato to weaken Vash's reserve and forcing him to 'degrade' himself to knives level) and extended his life longer (i.e. Legato) but in the end Vash was destined to be caught and devoured in the web of another.

[SamIam]

Originally posted by Drizzten
My favorite discussion scenes are from "Project Seeds"...

***SPOILERS!!!***


Knives said that without the sacrifice of the butterfly, the spider dies. Vash wanted to save both, which Knives called a "contradiction." Knives paraphrased Joey by saying they must make the smallest possible sacrifice at the given time. Vash made his choice. Knives made his. Who was wrong?

In the absolute causal sense, Knives is correct ... from a mechanistic process survival paradigm.

... but ...

On a higher level, Vashs intent is more in line with the capacity of a thinking organism as opposed to an amoral causal process.

Thus, Vash is is trying to transcend the cruel but efficient process of natural selection by using compassion, love and sacrifice... concpets usually at odds with plain survival.

Knives approach is the simpler and easier of the two, his is the path of expediency... Vash has taken the much harder road... of living and letting live.

In terms of the eco-system and food chain... this would entail a major shift in basic principle... one based upon symbiosis and cooperation ... a much harder road indeed, but a goal worthy of the likes of Vash, Kenshin and all such life affirming heros.

SamIam

[Drizzten]

Says the Ever-Red IAL:
Um aaanyway... Vash was a complete moron for conceding to those idealistic fantasies of Rem (sure he was well meaning but a moron none the less) He signed his death warrant by allowing Knives to survive and at that point because of his idiocy disserves to die... he is the weaker of the species.
Is it weaker to want to help out other living beings in times of danger? I would say, like SamIam said, that Vash's path was far more arduous and tiring than the path taken by Knives. And in the end, who survives? It's Vash's force of will, not Knives'.

[ussjburori]

It's Vash's force of will,

:eek: is this the same drizz i know and love speaking?!?!

vash was a broken man by the end of the series, the only thing that kept him going was his want to stop knives. and he wasn't even sure about that!!!!

knives would've kept on going along with his plan whether vash was there or not. vash was an obstacle, but only because knives allowed him to be. knives could've easily gotten rid of vash but he decides instead to try and turn him to the darkside.

[Drizzten]

Exclaims ussjburori:
:eek: is this the same drizz i know and love speaking?!?!
The same.

vash was a broken man by the end of the series, the only thing that kept him going was his want to stop knives. and he wasn't even sure about that!!!!
I understand that Vash had violated his most closely-held principles by the end of the series...yet he still stuck to his beliefs and did NOT kill Knives even though he had more than enough reasons to. It was Vash's desire to see things through, to see that his version of morality beat Knives', to be honest with himself by confronting Knives...it was Vash's willpower that won in the end. IMHO.

[Bishdariel]

Originally posted by Ikari_Asuka_Langley
Knives is a God among men so to speak it has been proven that he is above the laws of nature... of aging and decrepitating.... His people were being enslaved and used for the rights of something that was biologically inferior... he was justified in wanting to destroy all of humanity.
but knives would have also killed his brothers and sisters with the crash of the spaceships, he and vash would have been the only survivors! that wasnt very logical, what he did!
it would have been better if he killed all the people, when the ships landed safely!

and i have to agree with drizzten, with the last point. vashs will wasnt broken, maybe it was bended for a while, but definitely not broken! :)

[ussjburori]

not broken? vash was a shell of a man. he couldn't go 5 minutes without wanting to bawl like a baby.

knives did have the stronger of the 2 wills, but the series wold've sucked if the bad guy won so the writer had vash win even though he shouldn't have.

[Fairybane]

If Vash hadn't had Wolfwood's gun with him, he woulda got his ass kicked, right? So it was a fluke that he won...not at all based on his moral high-ground, but the fact that he had an extra gun...

[Dryden-san]

Originally posted by Fairybane
If Vash hadn't had Wolfwood's gun with him, he woulda got his ass kicked, right? So it was a fluke that he won...not at all based on his moral high-ground, but the fact that he had an extra gun...
True, but you forget that the only reason he had Wolfwood's gun with him was that Vash stuck to his principles throughout the series. If he hadn't stuck to his non-killing philosophy, he never would have turned Wolfwood, Milly and Meryl into friends. In a sense, he only had the gun because of his principles, which were proved correct in the end.

[Bishdariel]

Originally posted by Fairybane
If Vash hadn't had Wolfwood's gun with him, he woulda got his ass kicked, right? So it was a fluke that he won...not at all based on his moral high-ground, but the fact that he had an extra gun...
and dont forget that vash had only one real arm, and he had much more injuries than knives!

[Fairybane]

What if Wolfwood hadn't gotten killed? There's no telling what he would've done, but I doubt giving his cross to Vash and letting him go fight Knives alone is what he'd do...but since Wolfwood was Vash's friend, he went to fight Chapel the Green and was killed.
I suppose when you look at it that way, it was Vash's principles which ultimately sent Wolfwood to his death, but he at least wound up with an extra gun for the deal ^_^

But say after Vash killed Legato, he decided killing wasn't all that wrong? Do you think he might have had a better chance against Knives? What if Wolfwood's gun had been just a few more meters away from Vash during that critical scene?

His morality isn't what won that battle...and by keeping Knives alive, he may have just extended the war ^_^

[Dryden-san]

I never said it was his morality alone, but it helped. If nothing else, I don't think Knives would have ever thought of using the Angel Arms to cancel each other out. That's the kind of solution that only Vash could have come up with.

[Drizzten]

Says Fairybane:
If Vash hadn't had Wolfwood's gun with him, he woulda got his ass kicked, right? So it was a fluke that he won...not at all based on his moral high-ground, but the fact that he had an extra gun...
Well, you may be right there...but he had the presence of mind to bring it, which shows he was thinking clearly and with an eye to the future battle. I can't remember...didn't Milly offer it to him before he left and he accepted after a moment of thinking?

But say after Vash killed Legato, he decided killing wasn't all that wrong? Do you think he might have had a better chance against Knives? What if Wolfwood's gun had been just a few more meters away from Vash during that critical scene?
If he changed his mind after Legato, then I doubt Vash would have let Knives live. You take that first step, and it's all much easier afterwards if you justify it to yourself enough. While I wonder what Vash's strategy was going in...I doubt it was to kill Knives. So, given the assumption that he changes his mind after killing Legato, Vash's plan would have been different. And that difference probably would have tipped the fight in his direction.

[Gundammi!]

Vash definetly would have been lunch meat if not for the cross-punisher. If I remember correctly, Vash is pinned without a weapon and Knives has both Angel Arms. All of a sudden Vash hears "What are you doing? It's right beside you Needle-Nogin!" and grabs Wolfwood's weapon and saves the day. It just shows that Wolfwood's life was not in vain and in the end, he could attone for his sins not only by letting Chapel live but by helping Vash (inderectly of course) win his final battle.

In other words...

Go Wolfy!

[Sigurd Fatima]

To begin with, killing the spider is wrong since the spider also kills other pesty insects and in turn helps us from diseases and what not. It was unfortunate that the butterfly got caught in the web though. Nither should be killed nor saved for it is humans tampering with nature that will someday drive us to our own extinction. Not to offend anyone, but in the Christian sense that may have been truth behind the Adam and Eve story.

[Miss_Misato]

I say it is right to let nature take it's course and see what happens. I also see Vash's point of view and Knives' point of view. Vash felt that as individual beings, the spider and the butterfly would set aside thier differences and be friends. Knives saw that the spider and the butterfly were merely creatures of instinct and he knew he had to kill the spider himself.

Knives was correct in that arguement (as much as I hate to admit it) but he was wrong in assuming that humans were also creatures of instinct that needed him to play God for them. If he would have been as open-minded as his brother, he might have seen it, but being the victim of sibling rivelry, the least Favorite he already held a grudge.

Whoever "made" Vash and Knives should have known that one year was not nearly enough of a time for these two to be children. Had they known this, then Knives could have seen all aspects of humanity through various levels of maturity. Vash also could have done this and realized that good does not always triumph.

However, don't blame Rem for Vash and Knives' failures!!! She was far from home on an expidition that she knew could fail at any moment, she had lost her fiance, and was the only one on the ship who was as optimistic as she was. She only had one year to raise the kids and she had no experiance in doing so. I think she did a pretty good job.


:bow:
Thank you, thank you, there's my 2 cents worth

[Drizzten]

Says Sigurd Fatima:
Nither should be killed nor saved for it is humans tampering with nature that will someday drive us to our own extinction.
Humans who tampered with Nature are responsible for all the amazing technological advances we enjoy these days. For if there is a technological way to kill us all, there is also a technological way to save us all.
Says Miss_Misato:
Whoever "made" Vash and Knives should have known that one year was not nearly enough of a time for these two to be children. Had they known this, then Knives could have seen all aspects of humanity through various levels of maturity. Vash also could have done this and realized that good does not always triumph.
I disagree. The differences in their philosophies are a fundamental split in all human's beliefs, in my opinion. The decision to interfere or not to interfere is made every single day by humans of all ages. While I do understand the point you are trying to make, I don't agree that letting the boys experience life and mature would have changed the situation any differently. In fact, I think that continued exposure to humans would have hardened Knives' mind further.

[Sigurd Fatima]

Drizzten said this...

Humans who tampered with Nature are responsible for all the amazing technological advances we enjoy these days. For if there is a technological way to kill us all, there is also a technological way to save us all. Yes, well once a nuclear bomb goes off, no vacuum technology or invention of canceling it out exists yet. In science flaws such as the nuke are much easier to come by than a way to control that flaw, yes. Plenty of nuts also would use this advantage much more than the careful good scientists that there are. Through intelligence comes power, but it most definately isn't the intelligent that use that kind of power. Once we gain control of an explosion like that we can use it in the good way, to explore our universe much more sufficently. :nuke:

[Mazinger Z]

Knives should have killed the butterfly. All butterflies should go to hell. Especially the red ones. Damn you, red butterflies!!! Damn you, Saturn Sigil!!! Damn you, Kimahri, and your stupid Spirit Lance!!!!!:mad2:

[Sigurd Fatima]

Originally posted by Mazinger Z
Knives should have killed the butterfly. All butterflies should go to hell. Especially the red ones. Damn you, red butterflies!!! Damn you, Saturn Sigil!!! Damn you, Kimahri, and your stupid Spirit Lance!!!!!:mad2: :| I take it, you've had a couple of run-ins with red butterflies in the past...

[DeeD]

the question is who are you to judge, whether the spider or the butterfly should survive.
but i look up to Vash, because it's the harder way and if it can be fulfilled then love and peace will always prevail :lol:

[Drizzten]

Going by our own limitations, it is up to us to judge what lives and what dies, in my opinion. Humans are the most inteligent and rational living things on the planet and have far more brainpower to devote to questions like this than anything else.

Therefore, I think there is a correct answer. I don't think we're framing the question the right way. I'll have to keep thinking about it for now.

[DeeD]

Originally posted by Drizzten
Going by our own limitations, it is up to us to judge what lives and what dies, in my opinion. Humans are the most inteligent and rational living things on the planet and have far more brainpower to devote to questions like this than anything else.

Therefore, I think there is a correct answer. I don't think we're framing the question the right way. I'll have to keep thinking about it for now.

so in your point of view, knives's correct then, since he's the most intelligent and rational living things on the planet in trigun. so he's not wrong in judging whether humans should live or die then. is that what you meant?

[Drizzten]

Says DeeD:
so in your point of view, knives's correct then, since he's the most intelligent and rational living things on the planet in trigun. so he's not wrong in judging whether humans should live or die then. is that what you meant?
I'd like to mention that I was referring to the animal-human relationship in my previous post. It assumed there was no being "higher" than a human.

So, do I think Knives is superior to a human? He really doesn't have any adantages over a human except for his physical powers. He certainly didn't come across to me as mentally superior. So, no, I view Knives on the same level as other humans, he can just live longer and kill more efficiently if he puts his mind to that kind of task.

In that case, while he can judge other people to his heart's content, he has no right to kill indiscriminantly. As beings of reason, it is not right for him to slaughter as he wanted to. He viewed all humans as below him, but what is is rationale for this view? It's no different from a human dictator who views his own agenda as far more important than the lives of the people he destroys to achieve it.

But, does this mean I think he was right about the spider and the butterfly? I'm still working on that. :confused2

[Stalinist]

Didn't come across as mentally superior? Wasn't he the one that made the angel arms?

[DeeD]

Originally posted by Drizzten

I'd like to mention that I was referring to the animal-human relationship in my previous post. It assumed there was no being "higher" than a human.


o.O? i think we're referring to the Spider and Butterfly argument right? i was saying that who're you or we to judge, i think that implied to everyone of us and those anime characters. your opinion was that those who are of higher intellect and rational being should judge.

well, we humans pride ourselves as the highest intellectual being on earth. going by your line of logic, if someone/something came along and demostrated that he/she/it is far more intelligent and rational than us humans. he/she/it has the right to serve out life and death sentence??

in this case it's Knives who thinks that he is of higher intellect and rational being, no one could prove him wrong, so he's right in a sense, just like because no other creatures could prove to us that humans aren't higher in status. that's why we felt that we're the highest being on Earth rite?

also eh... i don't think the assumption is Human is the highest being. the assumption was whoever's the most intelligent being is the highest being. i think we shouldn't based our assumption on Humans as the most intelligent being, there might/can be something out there more intelligent and rational than us, if we in our ignorance based ourselves as the most intelligent being. then i think it'll be a paradox cause ignorance and intelligence don't go together rite?

P.S: btw, humans aren't really rational creatures. ^_^


So, do I think Knives is superior to a human? He really doesn't have any adantages over a human except for his physical powers. He certainly didn't come across to me as mentally superior. So, no, I view Knives on the same level as other humans, he can just live longer and kill more efficiently if he puts his mind to that kind of task.

In that case, while he can judge other people to his heart's content, he has no right to kill indiscriminantly. As beings of reason, it is not right for him to slaughter as he wanted to. He viewed all humans as below him, but what is is rationale for this view? It's no different from a human dictator who views his own agenda as far more important than the lives of the people he destroys to achieve it.


i think he has demostrated with a plot far more sinister than anyone did on the SEEDS ship. and with the ability to live longer, meant that he had the ability to perfect whichever art he is learning. perfection can be viewed as intellectual superiority right, since no humans can live as long as they do to perfect any art.

as for killing indiscriminantly, well his reason is that humans threaten and use the life of plants to fulfill human's desires and needs. he felt that the plants are being made used of. so in his sense of logic, his killings are justified.

it's like when we are threaten by animals in the wild, we justified the killing as self defense. if u judge that the spider should die because of it's intent to eat the butterfly as food. doesn't that justified your killing of the spider?

you viewed all animals as below humans, his thinking is that all humans are below plants. true, animals can't think and reason as well as humans do. but in knives's case, i think he had witnessed the greedy, selfish and horrible side of the man, before he came to recognise that humans are foolish creatures that act on their instinct, i'm sure that's what we think of animals right?

All in all, what made us felt that we are superior to the animals. made Knives's feel that he's more superior to humans. so if we go by your reasoning then he's not wrong :eek:

humans view their agenda as more important than anything else, no life on earth is far more precious than their agenda when they set their mind on it. How many forests have Men destoyed? how much pollution have we caused? How many wars have been fought? so we're not so different from Knives then ;)


But, does this mean I think he was right about the spider and the butterfly? I'm still working on that. :confused2

my opinion is that you think he's right :)

P.S Again: we humans really aren't rational hee hee

[Shades]

I couldn't have posted it better myself.

But in my opinion, Vash and Knives were two different ends of the spectrum.

Vash had human compassion.
Knives had the logic.

Neither was right, nor were they wrong. Vash could've fed the spider something else, and saved the butterfly as well.

I think the big message here was how careless and quick Knives was to judge, and killed the spider quickly, without giving it thought.

At least that's what I gather... or something... this scene was great! I like mittens.

[Shades]

It's it sad that the one of the most "human" person in the series is Knives?

Or that humanity is no different than Knives?

We are horrible, horrible people... :(

lol

Anywho.... this scene has served it's purpose. It made us all think.

[Stalinist]

In my opinion Vash is right. We're all going to die, the best we can do is to indirectly kill things instead of directly killing things. Overzealous fanatics are usually at least a little wrong to some extent, so I guess I should say Vash is more right.

[Drizzten]

Says Stalinist:
Didn't come across as mentally superior? Wasn't he the one that made the angel arms?
I mean in the sense that a dolphin is mentally superior to a cat. Knives is no idiot, he created some amazing weapons. But that doesn't qualify him as being mentally superior in my book.

DeeD, ok. :) I'll back down from my position. Somehow, I think my points are right, but your arguement has killed what I have left. And yes, humans are rational. We're just so cynical these days that we've taken it for granted.

[DeeD]

Originally posted by Drizzten

DeeD, ok. :) I'll back down from my position. Somehow, I think my points are right, but your arguement has killed what I have left. And yes, humans are rational. We're just so cynical these days that we've taken it for granted.

lol, well no offense man, it's just for argument sake. hope you take none. :D
well, i can come up with a whole load of reasons why humans aren't rational but nah, i'm not going to do that hee hee. but hey, nice discussion with you. :)