Why Vandread Is Superior Evangelion.

[Ronin Aquila]

Why do I make such a (seemingly) heretical statement, you ask? Well, though intially an action packed "Tenchi" clone, Vandread grows into one of the most powerfully written human dramas as it strides into the Second Season.

Although Evangelion explores the nature of humanity, it does so in a cold and heartless manner. Having a heart and soul is what makes us human, and Hideaki Anno denys this fact and declares incestuous lust as the meaning of life. :(

Vandread, although exploring the deplorable depths that man can sink to, also explores the nobility we are capable of when we stand up for whom we love and care for. Unlike Evangelion, Vandread has a heart , and a very tender and humane one at that.

Unlike the former the latter does not choke you with a heavy handed lesson about how ugly and worthless life is in the form of a double cheese angst-burger. Instead, it shows the darkness that should be conquered, and then the tender things in life that are worth striving on for.

Therefore, in its sincere and heartfelt statement on the preciousness of humanity, Vandread is ultimately superior to the Apocalyptically Nihilistic nightmare that was Evangelionl.

[Project Akira]

Ok, I like Vandread but well I have to argue with you on this Ronin.

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
Why do I make such a (seemingly) heretical statement, you ask? Well, though intially an action packed "Tenchi" clone, Vandread grows into one of the most powerfully written human dramas as it strides into the Second Season. Um, I wouldn't necessarily say that the first season was a Tenchi clone since it did incorporate themes of male and female power struggles, the power of relationships over self reliance, as well as a lot of sexual metaphors. Calling the second season one of the most powerfully written human dramas I think is a stretch. As much as I like Vandread 2nd Stage and how well written it is, I would wait till it is completed before calling it that.

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
Although Evangelion explores the nature of humanity, it does so in a cold and heartless manner. Having a heart and soul is what makes us human, and Hideaki Anno denys this fact and declares incestuous lust as the meaning of life. :(Where did that come from? Evangelion does the exact opposite. It tells us that the meaning of life is the relationships and preceptions we have with people. That's the message of Evangelion, the how we react to the world and the way the world reacts to us. Not this idea that you have that Eva is all about incest.

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
Vandread, although exploring the deplorable depths that man can sink to, also explores the nobility we are capable of when we stand up for whom we love and care for. Unlike Evangelion, Vandread has a heart , and a very tender and humane one at that. Evangelion wasn't meant to make you feel good. Evangelion was meant to show you what sick and cold world this is. Anno made the show to show what a sad race humanity is but at the same time he made it so that we could see that there is hope for us all. There is a definite message of hope in the darkness of the show that you seemed to miss while watching it.

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
Unlike the former the latter does not choke you with a heavy handed lesson about how ugly and worthless life is in the form of a double cheese angst-burger. Instead, it shows the darkness that should be conquered, and then the tender things in life that are worth striving on for.I'll give you this but what fun is it to watch people you can't relate to at all? The characters in Evangelion are that rare breed, three dimensional fully realized individuals while with Vandread they are more two dimensional, they have motivations and desires most of the characters are simply existing archetypes that we've all seen before. I can identify with characters in Evangelion, characters in Vandread are just fun to watch.

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
Therefore, in its sincere and heartfelt statement on the preciousness of humanity, Vandread is ultimately superior to the Apocalyptically Nihilistic nightmare that was Evangelion. I thought that Eva made an overall positive statement about humanity that we can rise above our problems and that our relationships are important.

Overall Eva is a positive series if you are willing to watch it in that perspective. If not you are watcjing the series for the wrong reasons.

Vandread is just a good series but has not had an opportunity to stand the test of time. Give the series a little time before you make such statements.

[Darklightz]

I don't think Vandread and Evangelion can be compared.

It's true that Evangelion was cold and sometimes inhumane,but that's what it was meant to be,so it can shock people,make them wake up and think.That's something that contributed a lot to it's popularity I think.

Vandread does have it's dramatical times.Like when the girl in the resistance fleet dies,or the inner conflict of Hibiki.But I don't think it reaches NGE's level yet

[StramiT]

pfffttt as if Evangelion is better then Vandread... Vandread has a cool factor that evangelion will never have... sure it starts as an ecci comedy but it grows. I like Vandread better then eva because it's alot more fun and exciting to watch. Eva makes me all sad and depressed, Vandread makes me laugh and also shares some of the themes that makes Evangelion one of my fave animes.

[tekblade]

they both are the same just different ways of showing chracter development thats all.

[raymojo]

Ronin Aquila:
I'd agree with everything you said. Vandread is just.... more fun to watch. Eva was just too devoid of humanity.

NGE on the other hand falls under a different category for me. I wouldn't watch if I wanted pure entertainemnt, rather some intellectual stimulation. It is still however one of my favourite series, whereas Vandread would not be ranked as high.

[DNA_Master]

To start off with the mecha are cooler in Vandread than in Eva. Nothing personal, but the Evas where a touch on the extreme side of giant-mecha. And big space battles are always an attraction for me.

But if we are talking plot, then I would also say that Vandread is better than NGE. While NGE is very 'deep', Vandread is also easier to understand, and puts it message across very well. Who here did not feel a lightening of your heart when Hibiki stepped out of his Vanguard at the end of Series 1, and did his hero speech. Its much better than the rather pussy 'congratlations' and hand clapping from characters who were DEAD at the end of NGE. Of course the personality crisis's where still there in Vandread, but they wern't to the extreme that Eva took them too. I mean, someone may lose a fight, and not want to pilot anymore, but that is no real excuse to go into a coma (you hear me asuka?). And shinji is even more of a wuss than Hibiki was. Shinji just screamed a lot and overdid the hero factor. Hibiki, while he was full of himself, realises that he needs to co-operate with his squadmates in combat if he wants to live. Shinji just rides in and kills stuff, all while screaming "I dont want to pilot eva, I don't want to fight, screw you dad".

Henceforth Vandread is better than eva. In fact, as my anime experience grows, I realise that a LOT of animes are better than eva. In fact, eva kind of sucks now, to me.

[tekblade]

true there are series far better than nge but i just cant get it away as one of my fav series, but true vandread has a sorta better character development rather in nge its kinda the same issue over how shinji doesnt wanna pilot eva but ends up winning. in vandread it shows some battles lost but shows character development as hibiki learns to work with other females to kill the bad guys. overall i guess its easier and to understand vandread rather eva since eva mostly always returns to shinji's gloomy self and personality :D

[Ronin Aquila]

Whereas characters in Vandread grow , characters in Evangelion become more like themselves and in effect, shrink in their humanity.

[tekblade]

yeah thats true

[DNA_Master]

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
Whereas characters in Vandread grow , characters in Evangelion become more like themselves and in effect, shrink in their humanity.

Yes, that is true. there is no real "character development" in Eva. There is in Vandread and Nadesico, ie they discover why they fight, resolve differences, confront conflicts, all while getting to be a deeper character.

[Ronin Aquila]

Plus, the characters of Evangelion never seem to truly bonded with each other, whereas the men and wome of Vandread, though initially enemies, through working as comrades against a common foe, gradually earned the friendship, respect, and even love, of each other.

[Project Akira]

I actually liked Eva for that reason. How often do you bond with the people that you meet? I found Eva to far mroe realistic in it's relationships and far more interesting thatn Vandread for that very reason.

[Ronin Aquila]

At the very least the characters of Vandread show a medium of appreciation and respect for each other, which is more than can be said for the ingrates who owe their lives to each other in Evangelion.

[Westlo]

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
Why do I make such a (seemingly) heretical statement, you ask?
its a sad state on this board that is a heretical statement

Well, though intially an action packed "Tenchi" clone, Vandread grows into one of the most powerfully written human dramas as it strides into the Second Season.
true all to true what a transformation

Although Evangelion explores the nature of humanity, it does so in a cold and heartless manner. Having a heart and soul is what makes us human, and Hideaki Anno denys this fact and declares incestuous lust as the meaning of life. :(
eva was way to cold and detached yet it never made me depressed

Vandread, although exploring the deplorable depths that man can sink to, also explores the nobility we are capable of when we stand up for whom we love and care for. Unlike Evangelion, Vandread has a heart , and a very tender and humane one at that.
all to true again

Unlike the former the latter does not choke you with a heavy handed lesson about how ugly and worthless life is in the form of a double cheese angst-burger. Instead, it shows the darkness that should be conquered, and then the tender things in life that are worth striving on for.
yep yep
Therefore, in its sincere and heartfelt statement on the preciousness of humanity, Vandread is ultimately superior to the Apocalyptically Nihilistic nightmare that was Evangelionl.
lets hope it gets the recognition it deserves


Originally posted by DNA_Master
To start off with the mecha are cooler in Vandread than in Eva. Nothing personal, but the Evas where a touch on the extreme side of giant-mecha. And big space battles are always an attraction for me.
the mecha are much kewler and space battles do rock^^
But if we are talking plot, then I would also say that Vandread is better than NGE. While NGE is very 'deep', Vandread is also easier to understand, and puts it message across very well. Who here did not feel a lightening of your heart when Hibiki stepped out of his Vanguard at the end of Series 1, and did his hero speech. Its much better than the rather pussy 'congratlations' and hand clapping from characters who were DEAD at the end of NGE. Of course the personality crisis's where still there in Vandread, but they wern't to the extreme that Eva took them too. I mean, someone may lose a fight, and not want to pilot anymore, but that is no real excuse to go into a coma (you hear me asuka?). And shinji is even more of a wuss than Hibiki was. Shinji just screamed a lot and overdid the hero factor. Hibiki, while he was full of himself, realises that he needs to co-operate with his squadmates in combat if he wants to live. Shinji just rides in and kills stuff, all while screaming "I dont want to pilot eva, I don't want to fight, screw you dad".
all valid comments in my book
Henceforth Vandread is better than eva. In fact, as my anime experience grows, I realise that a LOT of animes are better than eva. In fact, eva kind of sucks now, to me.

hell yeah when i watched eva 3-4 years ago i thought it was good, no great but not the mother of all animes it seems to be on these boards. Then watching other animes has made me think of eva as rather plain. Though i am rewatching it over the holidays (it has been 3-4 years) my views won't change much on it.

[Ronin Aquila]

Come to think about it, Evangelion is not even truly a Mecha anime, for the EVA units themselves are more akin to giant monsters than actual machines...

[Westlo]

true they are beings held back by the mechanical restrients to hold back their power but if you show a picture of unit 01 to someone who hasn't seen eva they would most likely say its a mecha

its close enough to a mecha for it to be a mecha anime

[Ronin Aquila]

Its still not a true mecha in that you you fix a mecha when it is broken, not hospitalise it.

[Project Akira]

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
Come to think about it, Evangelion is not even truly a Mecha anime, for the EVA units themselves are more akin to giant monsters than actual machines... I think that was what Anno was aiming for and I found it to be a very interesting twist on the Mecha genre. Of course knowing the arguement that is going on here I will be in the minority with that opinion.

[Ronin Aquila]

And, my the sheer organic nature of their structure made the maiming of Suzuhara Touji and the death of Asuka Langley all the more horrific , didn't it?

[death]

Well yes it does...

But Project akira does stilll have a point.

How many othetr animes have a liveing mecha?

[Project Akira]

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
And, my the sheer organic nature of their structure made the maiming of Suzuhara Touji and the death of Asuka Langley all the more horrific , didn't it? First off, Asuka Langley Sohryu if you even bothered to watch End of Evangelion was quite alive. Secondly, why glorify violence and fighting while making it seem consequenceless? There isn't any point something Vandread seems comfortable in doing while Evangelion decided to take the route of gee what happens when your dad makes you attack a robot and it ends up being piloted by your best friend or what would it be like to kill the only person who has ever shown any self less affection to you? If Vandread was half of the powerful human drama that you even said it to be, then it would have dealt with similar issues such as these. I have yet to see a Vandread episode yet that does this while Evangelion's psychological storytelling seems to hit that mark everytime.

[Takahashi]

Originally posted by Project Akira
First off, Asuka Langley Sohryu if you even bothered to watch End of Evangelion was quite alive. Secondly, why glorify violence and fighting while making it seem consequenceless? There isn't any point something Vandread seems comfortable in doing while Evangelion decided to take the route of gee what happens when your dad makes you attack a robot and it ends up being piloted by your best friend or what would it be like to kill the only person who has ever shown any self less affection to you? If Vandread was half of the powerful human drama that you even said it to be, then it would have dealt with similar issues such as these. I have yet to see a Vandread episode yet that does this while Evangelion's psychological storytelling seems to hit that mark everytime.

Actually you might or might not have watch second stage, but we are talking about Vandread as a whole, so I presume you have otherwise consider my post a spoiler.
In episode 3 there is this little girl who has never been out of the hospital bed, never saw a ray of sunshine, Bart try to comfort her and made a promised to take her out to the peak of the dome and show the outside world to her, he went off for an emergency, cause the terrans are attacking, its heartbreaking to see him retourning to a dead little girl. Instead of fixing the unsfinished doll by sticking the hair in, he shaved his head and wear it as a badge of honor, to honor the memory of an innocent little girl that won't give up untill her very last breath. Talking about personality change, this is a 180 degrees turn for Bart.
Episode 5, Gascogne while in trouble ordered the fighter to retreat regroup to find a different solution, which was commented as a cowardice way of running from a battle, this shows thinking, tactical good move and interaction between crew members. Afterwards you see background information why Gascogne made the decission. Cascogne died on the very next episode while attempting to free Barnette and Hibiki from an alien, cause it was the right decission to make, the need of the many outweight the need of the few.
While the "Angels" in NGE remains stupid till the end, the enemy in of Vandread is constantly adapting their tactics to the Vandread crew, thus can never use the same tactics twice to defeat their enemy. The only original attack in NGE was a virus attack on the main three computer. While in NGE they heavily rely on kids natural talents to hold off the enemy, Vandread actually has several teams working in highly skilled coordinated attacks with some real leadership instead of I am the best mentality which might have doomed the planet if the "Mecha" didn't stepped in and save the day. What if all the angels attack all together as they should have, who would be deciding the fate of the earth then?

I personally don't think NGE is the best anime around anymore, use to think so though, until the world of animes opens for me(after broadband internet). If people on this boards could see half of the animes that I have, they would probably think NGE is just another plain anime. Despite it fall from grace(to me), it is still one of my favorite, it just doesn't rank as high as it use to.

[Ronin Aquila]

Not many people just pass out into a bloody coma for failing a job. In this way, Evangelion is not really that true to real life. :(

Having watched a friend waste away die from Lukemia, while still smiling for their loved ones and keeping their dignity to the very last breath, I find the portrayl of terminal illness in Vandread Stage 2 Episode 3 extremely accurate, and hence all the more touching and powerful. :(

Take Care, Brothers And Sisters. :(

[Project Akira]

Considering the denial and repression that Asuka put herself into throughout the series as well the false shell of superiority, I thought what happened to her was realistic from the slow degradation of her piloting skills to the eventual coma that she put herself into. You guys aren't factoring in the obvious psychological makeup of the characters in Evangelion which were far more well laid out than that of the ones that are being made in Vandread.

In my opinion I thought that the episode where it took someone to die for Bart to change was rather cliche no matter how well done it was. The best and most powerful death scene I've ever seen in anime was in Grave of the Fireflies and this was no near as powerful as that.

Of course that is just me.

[Takahashi]

Thats probably because all of the NGE character are mentally unstable from the start, none of them are qualified to actually live in a normal society. Though how endearing it is, sacrificing the world just to join the love of your life is just a little bit out of touch with reality. Making your son suffer just to show him what a cruel world it is out there is another thing that is totally unrealistic, If I ever had a son I would probably not treat him like that, would you? That sissy Shinji is so messed up, that he doesn't even know which way to go? would you let him be the savior of the world if you had a choice? That would be like giving Hitler access to Nuclear bombs. After two or three battles you would have thought he would be over it, but does he have to b#tch each and every time he steps into the plug? There is just no character development at all. Isn't it a little bit too convenient that the eva's goes beserk everytime he shut himself off from the world?

[Ronin Aquila]

One can say that the Beserk EVA is the physical manifestation of Shinji's Edipal Rage; in merging with the mother (who is Unit 01's Core), he then sets out to destroy all that may come between him and her.

And notice how the rage gets more violent every time it happens.

Therefore, yes. It is not Ikari Shinji who grows in character: he dosen't grow one iota in that department. Instead, it is his inner beast that gets more and more unleashed as the series progresses, until the chain finally snaps.

[Takahashi]

Thats not it either, Shinji is a wuss. The beast is a beast, Shinji is Shinji, nothing to do with each other. The beast manifest even if Shinji isn't in it, it takes over when It think Shinji can't handle it, which happens a lot. Regarding why its gets more violent each time it manifest is because, nerve is losing control over it, gradually it resist against the control until it can no longer be contained.

[Westlo]

well lets get back on topic here

what do you guys think now, since you have now seen all of vandread second stage

[Ronin Aquila]

Unfortunately good sir, not "all of us" have had that privilige yet. :heh:

[Westlo]

I am in the same boat as you ronin

though in a week or so i hope to correct this situation

[Ronin Aquila]

I won't be able to do so until the 26th of February, 2002, Mister Westlo.

On the bright side, AXN in Taiwan has started showing Vandread every day at 5:30. And since this is a TV telecast and not a fansub tape, the entire glory of its digital nature is finally fully appreciable. :)

[DNA_Master]

now that I have seen all of Second Stage, I can say this..

the ending of vandread is a LOT better than the ending of evangelion. For starters, you don't have to smoke several hundred dollars worth of marijuana to understand the ending of vandread. Also, the overall message of the series was put across neatly, the space combat at the end of Vandread was much better than the lousy "oh look the mass production units just ripped asuka to pieces. darn."

[Ronin Aquila]

Can't wait to get back to Australia to witness it all!! :kawaii:

[MDWigs]

I love Vandread, but I treat like it should be... a bit of fun.

Vandread is superior to Evangelion in that it is more "fun" that Eva.

However I disagree that it is deeper. Eva has a depth that Vandread doesn't even try to achieve, nor should it want to. They are different types of stories, different types of character development.

Personally I consider Eva far superior to Vandread because I prefer the "deeper issues" over just a bit of fun.

And come on if Meia isn't a blatant Rei clone then I don't know what is.

[Ronin Aquila]

Minus that eyepiece, their uniform, figure and character motiff are practically identical. :)

[Cyfith]

That is not a very accurate description. :(

How the heck is she supposed to be similiar to Rei?

Meia has a heart. Rei is literally an animated corpse.

If you really want to compare her to an Evangelion character than she would be the Shinji of Vandread.

She is afraid to get hurt by others and thus isolates herself. (hedgehoge dillema)
She has issues with her "father"
She became a Dread pilot to prove herself.
Granted she became a really nice person eventually, but you get my point.

If you still think she Rei clone then I need more convincing.

Unless of course you're talking about character design.

[Westlo]

Studio Gonzo

They are the masters of CG Animation
Of combining many different series into one
of fanservice
of production and execution

but something they lack is originality

I'm not saying they directly rip off other animes but they take an element or two from animes add something else in and meld it into one top notch anime.

Vandread - Macross, Nadesico
Hellsing - Trigun, Vamipre hunter D
Full Metal Panic - Nadesico, Gundam Wing
Gatekeepers has stock anime conventions all over it

and so on

I'm not complaining but original is something they are not, but what they do they do real real good and I immensely enjoy their animes.

[tekblade]

i didnt know vandread copied some of macross :heh: which parts?

[Ronin Aquila]

It is not originality that matters, but the way an archetypal story is told from a refreshing and innovative angle that does. :)

[Westlo]

Originally posted by tekblade
i didnt know vandread copied some of macross :heh: which parts?

the men and woman thing

[tekblade]

oh, i se i think :heh:


yeah true ronin it doenst matter if its original as long as it has an intriging story line that we like :D

[death]

Correct.

I really love both Vandread & Macross.

Sure there are elements that are the same but the overall feel is diffirent.

I really couldent compaire the 2. Like in macross they are only fighting each other (Till the macross appears)

In Vandread there is also the Earth forces who are wiping out every thing in the way.

[Ronin Aquila]

Possibly the most refreshingly original aspect of the Vandread franchise: Having Earth as the villains of the story. :)

[tekblade]

hehe yeah thats kinda like a interesting twist earth are the baddies :D

[Takahashi]

Originally posted by MDWigs
I love Vandread, but I treat like it should be... a bit of fun.

Vandread is superior to Evangelion in that it is more "fun" that Eva.

However I disagree that it is deeper. Eva has a depth that Vandread doesn't even try to achieve, nor should it want to. They are different types of stories, different types of character development.

Personally I consider Eva far superior to Vandread because I prefer the "deeper issues" over just a bit of fun.

And come on if Meia isn't a blatant Rei clone then I don't know what is.
Uhmm, Evangelion is as deep as you believe it to be, nothing more nothing less. When weirdos starts saying stuff like "ooh that glass of water represents life", is where I draw the line of being deep and being obsessive extraordinaire. You can picked the whole serie apart and still won't come out with a definate answer, because there isn't one, everthing is open for interpretation.

What deeper issues?
Like love and lost? Death? Afterlife? Higher being? Religion? Different perspective? Different way of life?

Rei is a vegetables compared to Meia, I don't see any resemblance accept they are pilots and they have blue hair, big deal.

[Ronin Aquila]

People in Vandread grow. People in EVA whither and shrivel.

[MDWigs]

Takahashi :

Uhmm, Evangelion is as deep as you believe it to be, nothing more nothing less.

Of course, and I believe it to be much deeper than Vandread, and not surprisingly so because I don't think that Vandread ever attempted to achieve a depth such as Eva has. I don't think that was the point of Vandread at all.

When weirdos starts saying stuff like "ooh that glass of water represents life", is where I draw the line of being deep and being obsessive extraordinaire.

I have obsessed over Eva in my time (never to the extent of seeing symbolism in a glass of water). That is a different issue to "depth" though. The in-jokes and references appeal to me as an Otaku. The "depth" of Eva appeals to me in a very different way.


You can picked the whole serie apart and still won't come out with a definate answer, because there isn't one, everthing is open for interpretation.

But that is the answer, that is the point.

"We all have to find out own answers" - Hideaki Anno

What deeper issues?
Like love and lost? Death? Afterlife? Higher being? Religion?

All of the above. In the end Vandread is a fundamentally "happy" series. That is the way it was meant to be, and I love it because of that. The problem with that though is that nothing seems "real", there is no true pain in the series, not true loss. No real depth at all.

Again I stress that this is cool. I don't think there was ever meant to be this kind of depth. However in my opinion it makes Eva superior to Vandread overall because I prefer depth in my anime. (Not in real life, just in my anime ^_^)

Rei is a vegetables compared to Meia, I don't see any resemblance accept they are pilots and they have blue hair, big deal.

Meia is pretty much a vegetable as well; she is almost as cold and emotionless as Rei (at least initially, like Rei). I wont go into the character design, because that is just blatant (and I don't think it was meant any other way). They based the character off Rei and I think are proud of it. That doesn't make it "bad", I just think it shows that even the Vandread creators themselves admire and look up to Eva.

Again this is an Vandread Vs Eva discussion. They both have their good points; they are both "superior" to each other in different ways. I am just saying that in the ways that count to me the most, Evangelion is superior.

Ronin Aquila:

People in Vandread grow. People in EVA whither and shrivel.

I generally agree and that makes Vandread superior in the "fun" department, but lacking in my opinion in the "depth" department.

Maybe I am biased but I don't think it is really possible to have "depth" without pain and loss.

*Aside* I actually do disagree with your statement Ronin, there is a considerable amount of "growth" in Eva. Especially towards the end of the series. The characters grow through their pain and their trials, and at the end (especially during the original last two episodes) the characters come to realise what their faults are and what their purpose in life is. During EoE Shinji comes to the final realisation that his life is worth living with other people even though they can cause him pain. That is terrific (and very deep) "growth" in my opinion.

[Ronin Aquila]

Ayanami Rei is a diamond in the rough. In an ocean of ditzy clutzes, she is a Dignified and Regal young lady who set the benchmark for all women in that archetype to follow. Hence it is only natural that any self respecting person involved in anime (even myself) admire her. And in the case of character designers, aspire to achive her perfect.

Ikari Shinji, however, could have stopped the wholesale genocide of humanity, but instead squandered his ompnipotence upon creating a spiritually hollow shell, comprised of the best qualities of the three women in his life, which he could sexually dominate at his whim.

Chosing to be alone on the world with a sex slave over saving the human race is not exactly an indication of finding the value of humanity.

But then again, the movie Shinji is not the one we came to love and sympathise with, but a hateful manifestation of Anno's weariness over the fans' incessant complaints over his heartwarmingly uplifting original ending.

[Takahashi]

I don't know how far you have watched Vandread, put those points I mentionned are all points for Vandread not Eva. Eva kinda lacks when it comes to relegion cause it just focus on christian believes. Vandread takes it a step further by implying a different believe in different worlds, abusing these believes to their advantage. Vandread takes the character development a step further by placing the characters in an unfamiliar world with different believes and so they grow towards each other learning to accept each other strength and weaknesses, eva however just wanders around aimlessly, character don't grow they just be the same as they always where and then the original ending he finally grow out of his shell and it turns out its a twisted form of reality, boohoo.

You also said there is no love and lost? I like to think not, see second stage episode 3, you know she is gonna die and you can feel that he is gonna be too late, but still it hits you like a freight train when he sees her lying motionless, this also the moment Bart grows up and be a man. There is another example I think it was around episode 6-7 when Gascogne, think of the bigger picture and ram the mothership to save what might be the key to victory, so she sacrifice herself, that was the time when I said WTF no! I can hardly say I felt anything when Rei sacrifice herself, I don't feel involved with eva at all. And who ever say they can sympathise with anybody in eva, should have themselves committed to a mental institute, before they hurt themselves or others.

Meia is a leader, Rei is just a loner. People looks up to Meia for Guidance, nobody even wants to talk to Rei(except Shinji). I think that is a world of difference in personality and charisma.

I am not saying that Evangelion is bad on the contrary, I loved it, I have all the Eva units produced by Kaiyodo(and some in a few different colors). Its just that some people just blows it way too much out of proportion. It could mean entlighten to you, but it just might as well be shallow to another.

And the biggest mother of a spoiler coming up

There is a traitor among the grew, boy was I blown away by the voice mutator, I couldn't believe what I was looking at. I am not gonna name the traitor, you have to find out for yourself.

[Darklightz]

Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
Ayanami Rei is a diamond in the rough. In an ocean of ditzy clutzes, she is a Dignified and Regal young lady who set the benchmark for all women in that archetype to follow. Hence it is only natural that any self respecting person involved in anime (even myself) admire her. And in the case of character designers, aspire to achive her perfect.

If Rei represents the ideal woman then I'm turning gay this second.Ronin,she's a walking corpse,nor more,no less.She has no emotion,reactions or anything.She's is litterally Gendo's puppet.

As for comparing Vandread and Eva,you might as well compare oranges to apples.Each have their goods side and bad sides,but they are way too different to be compared.

[MDWigs]

Ronin Aquila:

Ikari Shinji, however, could have stopped the wholesale genocide of humanity, but instead squandered his ompnipotence upon creating a spiritually hollow shell, comprised of the best qualities of the three women in his life, which he could sexually dominate at his whim.

Sorry Ronin but I think that theory is completely wrong. In the end Shinji chose to allow humankind to return to physical form, he decided that existing in a world with AT Fields is preferable even it allows people to hurt him once more.

He choses to return to Earth, and allow everyone the chance to that have that choice also.

Asuka at the end is just Asuka. Asuka returned to physical form, she isn't some combination of Rei, Misato and herself. It is just Asuka and I don't think her return had anything to do with Shinji at all. I think she returned by her own accord.

So all that being said...

Chosing to be alone on the world with a sex slave over saving the human race is not exactly an indication of finding the value of humanity.

This isn't true. Shinji did indeed find value in humanity, he grew to understand his self worth, and in the end decided that everyone can return the physical form if they have the will to do so. The ending is actually optimistic if you think about it.

But then again, the movie Shinji is not the one we came to love and sympathise with, but a hateful manifestation of Anno's weariness over the fans' incessant complaints over his heartwarmingly uplifting original ending.

Anno's motivations aside (I don't agree it was intended as a "payback" to the fans), I think the EoE ending is just as uplifting and heart-warming as the original, after all, they ostensibly tell the same story.

Takahashi:

I don't know how far you have watched Vandread,

I have seen all of it.

put those points I mentionned are all points for Vandread not Eva. Eva kinda lacks when it comes to relegion cause it just focus on christian believes.Vandread takes it a step further by implying a different believe in different worlds, abusing these believes to their advantage.

Not so. In fact the Christian symbolism in Eva has no real meaning at all, the creators have said that they just put it in because "it looks cool". Eva doesn't focus on any real world religion, rather one of its own. Real world religions don't apply in the Eva universe because there is no question about the "creator". They know that Lilith is the progenitor of humanity.

Vandread takes the character development a step further by placing the characters in an unfamiliar world with different believes and so they grow towards each other learning to accept each other strength and weaknesses,

That could pretty much be used as a description for Eva as well.

Shinji comes to NERV (unfamiliar world) with lots of different beliefs (to fight Vs run away), he eventually grows and learns to accept different characters (Asuka, Rei, Misato, Gendou).

eva however just wanders around aimlessly, character don't grow they just be the same as they always where and then the original ending he finally grow out of his shell and it turns out its a twisted form of reality, boohoo.

Have a tissue. I don't think it wanders around at all, certainly not aimlessly. I think there is a marked growth in Shinji throughout the series, and in Rei too for that matter.

You also said there is no love and lost? I like to think not, see second stage episode 3, you know she is gonna die and you can feel that he is gonna be too late, but still it hits you like a freight train when he sees her lying motionless, this also the moment Bart grows up and be a man.

And that is the only instance I can think of where we specifically see someone die. I didn't particular see that episode as "deep". I enjoyed it, it "moved" me, but it was rather straightforward, transparent even.

There is another example I think it was around episode 6-7 when Gascogne, think of the bigger picture and ram the mothership to save what might be the key to victory, so she sacrifice herself, that was the time when I said WTF no!

Yet she doesn't even die in the end! She isn't dead. They don't kill off one main character in the whole series. That just isn't real. It is good, for a fun series, but it isn't real, it isn't "deep" and overall I take "depth" of "fun" and thus Eva over Vandread.

I can hardly say I felt anything when Rei sacrifice herself, I don't feel involved with eva at all. And who ever say they can sympathise with anybody in eva, should have themselves committed to a mental institute, before they hurt themselves or others.

I empathised with a lot of the characters within Eva. I almost cried when Rei sacrificed herself. I relate to Shinji in a big way.

Do you want to know why? Because the characters are real, they have real world problems, real world pains. They suffer loss and grief. I feel no connection to most of the characters in Vandread, in Eva though I felt some of the most powerful connections ever with a "fictional" character.

Meia is a leader, Rei is just a loner. People looks up to Meia for Guidance, nobody even wants to talk to Rei(except Shinji). I think that is a world of difference in personality and charisma.

Meia is also a loner. She is quiet, she shies away from human contact. I am not suggestion that they are a carbon copy of each other. Of course they are different, Meia isn't a clone possessing the soul of the progenitor of all humanity for instance, however in general I think it is clear that Meia is based upon the Rei character. The basic character traits mixed with the obvious character design make it quite obvious in my opinion.

I am not saying that Evangelion is bad on the contrary, I loved it, I have all the Eva units produced by Kaiyodo(and some in a few different colors). Its just that some people just blows it way too much out of proportion. It could mean entlighten to you, but it just might as well be shallow to another.

And I am not saying that Vandread is bad. I loved Vandread. However I think there is a fundamental difference between Vandread and Eva. Vandread never set out to be like Eva, it isn't that type of series, it isn't meant to have a huge amount of symbolism, it isn't meant to deal with philosophical issues about life and self. It is meant to be fun. It is fun. So treat it like that, as a bit of fun.

As a bit of fun I think it is far superior to Eva. However as a "deep" anime, I think it isn't. Personally I rate depth over fun, thus overall I think that Eva is superior to Vandread.

There is a traitor among the grew, boy was I blown away by the voice mutator, I couldn't believe what I was looking at. I am not gonna name the traitor, you have to find out for yourself.

I didn't expect that twist, but that doesn't give the series "depth". It is just a twist. The Usual Suspects has a massive twist at the end, but I wouldn't call it as "deep" as say Fight Club or even American Beauty.

This really is crazy. I mean come on. Is anyone seriously trying to argue that Vandread tries to be as deep and philosophical as Eva? Vandread just isn't that type of series, it was never meant to be.

[scanned]

Well, I like Vandread alot more, because it focuses on the POSITIVE things in this world of ours. Vandread is a story about love, friendship and determination. Everything is possible, if you believe in yourself and if you have friends who believe in you. Vandread is a story abour two races, men and women, who grow from hating and destroying each-other to loving each-other and defeating the ultimate enemy. As long as there is a beacon of hope in the darkness of the universe, victory and peace is not unattainable. Vandread is a touching story of the greatness of mankind - men and women - who's determination and strong will will do miracles. They will step forward and do the impossible - they will fight their own future.

NGE on the other hand... is rather disturbing to me. And I really can't say it's deeper than Vandread. It's just darker.

Thats my two cents.

[Takahashi]

Whats is so deep about eva, all you do is beat around the bush, with eva is has depth and vandread is fun. As for real world emotion, are you serious? You have a retard(Shinji), you have a turnip(Rei) and you have some nazi on steroids(Asuka). Shinji is one of the reason why I didn't like eva that much, the little girly boy just won't stop screaming, makes ya wish he had opted for the second option(run away), but no, he came back and start running away again and again. I can go for the first time he might scream, second time OK I can live with that, but everytime he gets into the damn thing he starts screaming is a wee bit unrealistic. Where is the growth? When did he start to change? When did he mature? When did he grow out of his fear?

[scanned]

Yeah, character development is much more deeper in Vandread than NGE. It may sound odd at first, but when you think about, it makes sense.

Dark doesnt always mean deep, and fun doesnt always mean superficial.

[Darklightz]

I think the way people are talking,everyone has a different definition of depth.

In Vandread you see only one or two aspects of each characters.Just something so the entire series isn't just about space battle and Dita chasing Hibiki.

Whereas in EVA every character's personnality is layed bare.A strip-tease of the soul like my friend calls it.

By the way Takahashi,I agree that Shinji is a worthless wimp.And that is what makes it so interesting.No Shinji doesn't gather himself and find the courage to fight well,no Asuka doesn't get a surge of affection for her fellow EVA pilot and now Misato doesn't try to solve her sexual appetite problem.One might say it's symbolic of how humanity is screwed up.

But back to Vandread before it's OOT.Vandread show a couple of sides to every character.We have Barnette's loyalty,Jura's wish to be a mother,Meia's caring side,Dita's courage and cluelessness,Duero's....Well that guy is just creepy.I could go on and on for each characters.But except for Hibiki we don't get to know any character other than their outside appearance and behaviour.

[scanned]

Yes, Darklightz. But...

In Evangelion, whats the main focus? On the EVA pilotes and some Nerv members. And thats it. Vandread instead, shows the development of a whole crew, a crew which will ultimately be the last force reuniting the universe against a common enemy. Vandread is a story about humankind, and how great it can be, it's a story of LOVE, FRIENDSHIP and GREAT WILL. In Evangelion, I only see menthally ill people, death and destruction. It's a damn psychological analysis on some characters. Vandread makes you feel good, it gives you hope - Evangelion gets you depressed.

Anyways, thats my two cents. =)

[Takahashi]

Lets take a random character, Bart. Did you like him from the start? Did he appear to you as a clueless selfish fool? When you finally get to know his other side, did you still think of him the same way as you first did. Take any of the cast and ask these questions(a little difference for everyone) you would be suprised of how well you know them. Clear examples are Meia, two episode dedicated to her. Gascogne an entire episode dedicated to her. Its just that they have 26 episode and you can't put the spotlight on each and every character of the main cast. More than half of the serie might as well be a spotlight on cast and there would be nothing left for the story they want to tell.

[Darklightz]

Scanned,I've no doubt Vandread is more cheerful than EVA.What I'm saying is that EVA is deeper than Vandread.

[Cyfith]

sniff ~~ :(

I feel ignored.

In my opinion Meia is more like the Shinji of Vandread. (actually she is more like Squall Leonhart, but let's not go there)

She is afraid to get hurt by others and thus isolates herself. (hedgehoge dillema)
She has issues with her "father"
She became a Dread pilot to prove herself.

[MDWigs]

To quote the last passage from my last post in this thread.

This really is crazy. I mean come on. Is anyone seriously trying to argue that Vandread tries to be as deep and philosophical as Eva? Vandread just isn't that type of series, it was never meant to be.

Well it looks like some people are trying to argue that. It really is a crazy argument, Vandread doesn't even try to approach the depth that Eva or even a series like Serial Experiments Lain has. It doesn't try to because it doesn't want to, it is not intended to be "deep", it is a light fun series. It is full of laughs and happiness. It is terrific at doing that as well. They don't try to get deep and philosophical because it doesn't fit with the rest of the series.

Examples of "depth" and philosophical topics in Eva Vs Vandread:


An analysis of the "self", "Who am I", how is the image of myself created.

An analysis of people's purpose in life, their "raison d'etre", their reason for existence.

A look into the "murder" of someone you love. The death of a loved one at your own hands. (Shinji and Kaoru)

A real look at love, and devotion, and the search for physical pleasure, and whether they are the same, or completely separate (Misato and Kaji).

An examination of reality, of what makes up our perception and what constitutes "perfect freedom".

A serious look at relationships with other people and how they form our self, especially with those close to us.

A very deep analysis of parents and the effect their can have on their children, (Misato, Shinji and Asuka in particular).



I could go on.

Again let me stress that I love Vandread. It is a terrific series, it is fun, and energetic, the space battles are awesome, the animation is terrific.

It isn't a deep and philosophical series though. I mean come on people, it doesn't even try to be. There are not multiple overriding messages through the series, it doesn't deal with philosophical issues and the plot is pretty much straight forward.

I didn't want to bring it up (because I do actually like Vandread), but considering Darklightz already has, I might as well.

The Character development in Vandread is pretty much two dimensional. We have about 10 or so "main" character and only really enough time to have a superficial look into their pasts and their motivations. They are lucky to get a episode each devoted to them and that's it. Some characters are just all together useless. I mean Misty, she adds nothing to the series at all except for a few episodes where she acts as a rival for Dita. That's it, other than a few minutes at the end where she feels "alone" and is comforted. Of course she feels alone, she is practically a throw away character.

This all doesn't make Vandread bad. I love it despite the faults I see in it, the same as I like Eva despite the faults I see in it. I just think it is rather silly to try and purport that Vandread ever tried to be a "deep and philosophical" series. This is not a "Lain vs Eva" thread, it is a Vandread vs Eva thread. They are completely differently series, with completely different goals in mind.

[scanned]

Your idea of deep is a bunch of 14 year old kids having loads of problems and trying to solve them by putting the entire fate of humankind to danger? Evangelion is good psychological series, but it's a damn lousy science fiction. Evangelion is ALL about those kids and their problems, in my opinion...

Well, to some die-hard Evangelion fan I might sound like "THE JERK" of the century, but I wont make a secret out of it - I don't particulary like Evangelion as much as Vandread for example.

MDWigs, did you notice, that the things you listed, are all "psychological problems"? Not a sign of anything else. =)

Anyways, I hope I didn't offend anyone - this was nothing personal, only my opinion, a bit harsh maybe. I'd be glad to continue this discussion, if somebody were ever to reply me again after this post. =)

[Takahashi]

And I am telling you that Eva isn't half as deep as you made it out to be. I look at it with really passive perspectieve, it didn't made you think. They just bring out known issues in a new package, nothing new and exciting, no new ideas to stimulate the brains. As I said before its too open for debate, which some people mistake for depth. Really you can debate about god for a whole lifetime and still it would not be considered deep by me, unless you can prove god existence with absolute proof. Same goes for Eva, you can debate all you want about their motives, its still your ideas and not theirs. I kinda think Eva is shallow because it has no real content, people just made up that content, that isn't there in the first place. I enjoyed it cause it was a fun show to watch, like I enjoyed watching Vandread. I don't remember if I ever said that Vandread is deeper than Eva, but if I did, it must be on a whim cause of a dismay of eva fans a few months back for their sheer lack of sight on a world outside of NGE.

As for characters, there is some 13 maincharacter on Vandread and maybe 6 on NGE. In eva however they could have expanded on the character get to know them, but the character remains two dimensional throughout the serie. Gendo remains a sick bastard, who only reason in life was to get his wife back, instead of charishing her legacy. Shinji remain a wuss, who can't stand up for himself. Asuka just remains asuka untill she can't handel the stress of living and shut herself from the world. Rei remains a puppet.

Hibiki
Meia
Dita
Misty
Bart
Barnette
Jura
Gascogne
BC
Boss
Ratbastard&monkey
Duero
Pyro

[MDWigs]

scanned:

Your idea of deep is a bunch of 14 year old kids having loads of problems and trying to solve them by putting the entire fate of humankind to danger? Evangelion is good psychological series, but it's a damn lousy science fiction. Evangelion is ALL about those kids and their problems, in my opinion... [/b]

Eva is about the kids. It was always supposed to be. The children, in particular Shinji are Anno's avatars, his way of expressing his thoughts and feelings. They are real, that have real problems, and deal with real issues.

Well, to some die-hard Evangelion fan I might sound like "THE JERK" of the century, but I wont make a secret out of it - I don't particulary like Evangelion as much as Vandread for example.

That is your prerogative and you are welcome to think that. Eva isn't perfect and it doesn't appeal to everyone. I know some people who completely hate it, can't stand it at all. They are entitled to that opinion, I disagree with it of course, but they are in their rights to hold it.

MDWigs, did you notice, that the things you listed, are all "psychological problems"? Not a sign of anything else. =)

I wouldn't call them all "problems", and they are not all psychological either. Contemplating reality certainly isn't.

Takahashi:

And I am telling you that Eva isn't half as deep as you made it out to be.

Give your definition of "depth" then. If it consists of fun loving, heart warming, unrealistically happy situations then sure Eva isn't deep at all.

I look at it with really passive perspectieve, it didn't made you think.

It didn't make you think. It made me think a lot. I spent quite a while pondering the issues portrayed in Eva. With Vandread I just thought it was cool and then moved on.

They just bring out known issues in a new package, nothing new and exciting, no new ideas to stimulate the brains

"Known" to who? It is a story of a man, of course the issues are not "new", they are fundamental to human existence. These idea's however did indeed stimulate my brain, made me think about how I treat my relationships with people, how I interact with others in the world.

As I said before its too open for debate, which some people mistake for depth.

And as I said earlier "The in-jokes and references appeal to me as an Otaku. The "depth" of Eva appeals to me in a very different way. " The "depth" of Eva is completely separate for me from the "openness", the mysteries.

Really you can debate about god for a whole lifetime and still it would not be considered deep by me, unless you can prove god existence with absolute proof.

Who mentioned God? Eva isn't about God, in fact the who "God" issue is rather moot in Eva. They know who the "creator" is.

Same goes for Eva, you can debate all you want about their motives, its still your ideas and not theirs.

In essence Eva is the story of a man - Hideaki Anno. Eva is his "life itself". It is about his ideas, and our perception of them.

I kinda think Eva is shallow because it has no real content, people just made up that content, that isn't there in the first place

Then I think you missed the point, or perhaps you were never meant to find it. I learnt a lot of Eva, it helped me to better understand myself. Of course when I first saw it (4 or more years ago now) I was still a teenager, searching for meaning in my own life.

. I enjoyed it cause it was a fun show to watch, like I enjoyed watching Vandread. I don't remember if I ever said that Vandread is deeper than Eva, but if I did, it must be on a whim cause of a dismay of eva fans a few months back for their sheer lack of sight on a world outside of NGE.

I get the impression that you are resentful of Evas success. I mean seriously, do you honestly consider Vandread to be a series that set out to try to be like Eva. Whether you found depth in Eva or not isn't the issue. Vandread is suppose to be a "fun" series, it didn't even try to emulate the "deeper" aspects of Eva. Trying to say that it did in my opinion is rather ludicrous. It is a light fun series, there is not violent bloody deaths, no sex, not real "mature" themes at all. It is a happy series and I don't think it was even meant to be anything else.

As for characters, there is some 13 maincharacter on Vandread and maybe 6 on NGE

13 main characters who are hardly expanded upon at all. At most the minor ones get half an episode devoted to their development.

In eva however they could have expanded on the character get to know them, but the character remains two dimensional throughout the serie.

I disagree (of course). I thought there was tremendous character growth throughout the series (which somewhat mirrored Anno's own growth).

Gendo remains a sick bastard, who only reason in life was to get his wife back, instead of charishing her legacy.

Until "The End" of course where he seeks redemption but in the end gets a final retribution.

Shinji remain a wuss, who can't stand up for himself.

In the end he didn't run away, he went the full arc. He decided that his life was worth living, that it was better off existing with other people, even though they can cause him hurt, than not existing at all.

I think Shinji showed the most growth throughout the series (Misato herself comments on the fact that he has become more comfortable around other people midway through the series).

Asuka just remains asuka untill she can't handel the stress of living and shut herself from the world.

Have you actually watched EoE?

Rei remains a puppet.

Again I ask, have you actually watched EoE? She rejects Gendou, ceases to be his puppet, returns to Lilith of her own accord and ultimate gives control to Shinji.

Now to your list: I wasn't planning on doing this, but you seem to consider Vandread to possess a high level of character development. Again I must stress that I love Vandread, I loved the character development that we did get to see, but overall I thought most of the characters were very transparent and two-dimensional.

Hibiki - Loved his character development. This was done really well.

Meia - As I said initially, I thought she was pretty much a Rei clone. One epsiode devoted to her back story and that was pretty much it.

Dita - She remained a ditzy girl all the way through. Out of all the major main characters she probably had the least growth of all of them.

Misty - A throw away character if ever I saw one. Her only reason seemed to be as a rivial to Dita, then after that she was forgotten. They never bothered exploring her background at all.

Bart - A rather predicable arc for him. The brash, unreliable man, gets attached to someone, she dies, he becomes the responsible man.

Barnette - She took over Gaso's job, that's about it.

Jura - Did we ever find anything about her past at all?

Gascogne - She dies, but then she is brought back to life, I mean really...

BC - Woo she was really a man. Didn't grow at all throughout the series, she went back to the Boss in the end, which was predicable.

Boss - The amazing healing lady. Did they ever bother to clear up what was wrong with her heart?

Ratbastard&monkey - Do I really need to comment here?

Duero - Another completely unexplored character.

Pyro - Comic releif nothing more.

Again I stress that I loved Vandread. I loved it because it was so fun, and it had been a while since I had watched anything fun. But please the character development in it was lacking, and to try and compare its "depth" to Eva is just silly in my opinion.

[scanned]

Okey, please define depth? All I see in Evangelion is dejection and endlesss observing of the same characters with same problams throughout the series. Dejection and slough doesn't necessarily mean it's DEEP, nor does a lot action and large number of characters mean it's superficial entertainment.

So, once and for all, could you please be kind, and tell us, what makes Evangelion SO MUCH DEEPER than Vandread?

[Ronin Aquila]

Happiness does not equate shallowness, and neither does heartwarming.

Bad things may happen, but its through solving them and finding the light that a person really may grow. To dwell on how ugly life is and not doing anything about it equates to the shallowness of denying the darkness.

[Cyfith]

Heh heh. I realized that you have a way with words, Ronin. Are you a literary student by any chance?

[Ronin Aquila]

Yes. :kawaii: As of the 4th of March, 2002, I will be a Third Year Arts Student at The University of Melbourne, Majoring in English and Film Theory. :kawaii:

[Cyfith]

I see... feel free to smack me for not noticing the obvious much sooner. :D

[Ronin Aquila]

No No No :heh: I'm just a boastful showoff, that's all. Sorry about that. :heh:

[MDWigs]

Scanned: I listed seven general examples of "depth" in Eva 2 posts ago.

There are very fundamental differences between Eva and Vandread, they are two very different series. I really don't see the point of trying to argue Vandread's "depth". It doesn't deal with important thought provoking issues, nor does it want to. Stop trying to make it something that it isn't.

Ronin:

Eva is dark, because Anno was in a lot of pain during it's conception and production. At one time Anno was sleeping at the Gainax studio's so that he wouldn't kill himself. That doesn't mean however that it doesn't convey a message of "hope".

Rei states specifically in EoE that she and Kaoru represent hope, they hope that people may come to understand each other, and say "I love you".

The ending of Eva is very optimistic in my opinion. Shinji in particular has a revelation, after having everything shown to him and examining all the possibilities he comes to the conclusion that life is worth living. That existing in a world with people is preferable to not existing at all. He finally comes to realise that running away from pain does no good, because inevitable it just causes more pain.

I think Eva has a very positive message. More importantly, it is real. Life is full of pain and loss, that is just the way it is. Eva was deep because it dealt with real issues, real human emotions, and real problems.

That doesn’t make Vandread any less of an anime for not doing that, it just makes it different. Vandread didn’t set out to do that, to portray loss and pain, to prompt philosophical discussion. It was a fun anime, with terrific action, moderate character development, and a tried and true plot. Again I really can’t understand why people are insisting that Vandread tries to be deep and philosophical. It’s like claiming that Love Hina is deep and philosophical. There are anime they try to do it (Lain is an example of another modern one that does it) and there are those that just don’t. Vandread doesn’t.

Again I stress that I love Vandread. I think it has flaws, but overall it is a great series.

[scanned]

MDWigs, from your posts I can understand, that you consider Evangelion to be somewhat more deep psychological osbervation of the main characters, and the actual story is just a shell? The science fiction side of Evangelion is not superior to Vandread. If it's ideology we're talking about, you really can't say Evangelion is much deeper either. Or least I can't say that. I wouldn't say that.

But as for the psychological side of the story... If that's whats important to you, then you'd maybe consider Kare Kano to be superior? The character development and the deepness of personality dissection is far greater in Kare Kano than Evangelion...

But let's not go so offtopic. I'm asking you once more, can you describe the thing(s) that make Evangelion deeper than Vandread in a few compact sentences? The point of the story sometimes gets lost if the story is too long...

[Takahashi]

That doesn’t make Vandread any less of an anime for not doing that, it just makes it different. Vandread didn’t set out to do that, to portray loss and pain, to prompt philosophical discussion. It was a fun anime, with terrific action, moderate character development, and a tried and true plot. Again I really can’t understand why people are insisting that Vandread tries to be deep and philosophical. It’s like claiming that Love Hina is deep and philosophical. There are anime they try to do it (Lain is an example of another modern one that does it) and there are those that just don’t. Vandread doesn’t.

Yeah, thats the same as claiming that Eva has any real depth. Same goes for Lain, there wasn't anything original in it. I have seen three movies depicting the same concept the year before Lain was released, it was like "been there, done that". Before you start asking which movie, Dark City, The Matrix and Existenz, even Labyrinth could have been its predescessor. So Lain was kinda boring and predictive.

[Ronin Aquila]

Love Hina, although not truly deep, has substance for its poignantly touching portrayl of our everyday struggle to overcome our endearingly humane flaws (In particular Episodes Focusing on individual Characters, such as Episode 2 for Shinobu-Chan.)

[MDWigs]

scanned:

MDWigs, from your posts I can understand, that you consider Evangelion to be somewhat more deep psychological osbervation of the main characters, and the actual story is just a shell?

Yes. I see it as the story of a man. That is about as simple a description I can give it.

The science fiction side of Evangelion is not superior to Vandread.

I wasn't claiming it was. (Eva is a little more realistic, they actually talk about Sea's of Dirac and Super String Theory and the like). Overall though Vandread is very SF, it is set in space, the SF of Eva is just the medium that allows Anno to tell his story.

If it's ideology we're talking about, you really can't say Evangelion is much deeper either.

I can and did.

Or least I can't say that. I wouldn't say that.

And you are entitled not to say it ^_^ That is what we are discussing after all. I found Eva incredibly deep and meaningful. I don't think Vandread even tried to be like that.

But as for the psychological side of the story... If that's whats important to you, then you'd maybe consider Kare Kano to be superior? The character development and the deepness of personality dissection is far greater in Kare Kano than Evangelion...

I don't consider Kare-Kano to be superior to Eva because it doesn't discuss philosophical issues. There is a distinction between psychological issues and philosophical ones. I loved Kare-Kano, Anno (for the time he actually worked on it) did a great job in my opinion. Again though you can't really compare Kare-Kano to Eva, it is a different sort of show, Kare-Kano focused on a few (2 major) characters and their interactions, I didn't try to be another Eva, it didn't attempt to be thought provoking, to have a philosophical impact.

But let's not go so offtopic. I'm asking you once more, can you describe the thing(s) that make Evangelion deeper than Vandread in a few compact sentences? The point of the story sometimes gets lost if the story is too long...

Quite simply: Eva is real, it deals with real world problem, real world issues. It also discusses many philosophical issues, such as the nature of reality and the self, as well as looking at what makes up our self image, and how we define our relationships with others. It prompts discussion, it makes people think. Vandread doesn't, nor does it try in my opinion. There are no "big questions" in Vandread; no topics portrayed that leave you pondering the implications later on. It is plain and simple fun, and that is all I think it was ever intending to be.

Takahashi:

Yeah, thats the same as claiming that Eva has any real depth.

If you don't believe it has depth now, then I am never going to convince you of it. To quote Anno "If you don't understand Evangelion, it's your own problem".

I found depth in it, if you didn't well then to also quote Anno "Too Bad". I think you have missed out on a fantastic experience.

Same goes for Lain, there wasn't anything original in it. I have seen three movies depicting the same concept the year before Lain was released, it was like "been there, done that". Before you start asking which movie, Dark City, The Matrix and Existenz, even Labyrinth could have been its predescessor. So Lain was kinda boring and predictive.

You do realise that Lain was released before two out of the three of those movies.

Dark City was released in February 27, 1998.

The Matrix was released on March 31, 1999.

Existenz was released on April 23, 1999.

Serial Experiments Lain was released in July 1998.

Lain certainly didn't cop on of the originality stakes because of those. The only one that was released before it, Dark City, was only released 4 months before Lain started screening on TV.

Just for the record, I think the general theme of those movies was done a whole lot better in "The Thirteenth Floor", and that was released on May 28, 1999, after all of them!

Just because you have seen something similar before, doesn't mean that what you are watching now is unoriginal.

Edit:

Ronin:

I wasn't trying to suggest that Love Hina is bad in any way, or without substance. I was merely trying to clarify the distinction I make between deep and philosophical anime (Eva, Lain, and the like) as opposed to those I call "fun" anime (Vandread, Love Hina etc.). They are very different types of anime and I just think that it is rather silly to consider Vandread to be an anime that wanted to be a deep and philosophical series. In my opinion (and I have stated it many times before in this thread) I don't think that was even the intention of the creators of Vandread.

[Takahashi]

Yup forgot all about it, saw "The 13th floor" before lain also.

[scanned]

MDWigs:

Okey, one final question. I can understand what you see in Evangelion, and I can understand why you like it so much. Can you understand why I like Vandread? Can you understand why I consider Vandread deep and meaningful?

If yes, then all I can say is - CASE CLOSED!

[MDWigs]

scanned:

I understand why you like Vandread. I like Vandread for a lot of the same reasons. I agree it has meaning, however I don't think it ever tries to be deep and philosophical. Those are different concepts all together.