Vegeta

[Wolfpac]

Should Vegeta be classified as a "good guy" or a "bad guy"???
If anything he's placed in between the middle of Good and Evil

[Yuusuke]

Place him as a bad guy when he shows up.
Place him as a good guy after that.
And when he becomes evil again, still, he's a good guy.
And in the end, place him as a good guy.
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"Ever since Goku died, Vegita's just been sleeping and acting lazy."
Bulma

[Schizm]

I will always class Vegita as a bad guy....but there's nothing wrong with a bad guy helping the good guys if it will benefit him...

[Yuusuke]

If you wish. . .
no comment. . .
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"I let Buu loose, I'll take care of him. I'll finish this fight later. . .if I'm still alive."
Vegita, to an unconscious Goku

[eva2000]

i am with Commander Ikari on that... he's only helping to benefit his own objectives... of course he did have a soft side when first fighting Gohan... when he said he was like family ?

[Yuusuke]

Um. . .I don't remember that scene. But how does it benefit someone (Vegita) to sacrafice his life to try and stop the ultimate evil (Majin Buu) from destroying Earth?
And how does it benefit him (Vegita) to say "Fight hard Kakaroto. You're number one." even though we all know how he feels towards Goku?
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"Gohan's ki is already gone. . .Forgive me. It's all my fault."
Vegita

[eva2000]

hehe we haven't watched that far yet ;) ... vegita's saiyan pride is probably what is fueling his support for Goku ...?

[Yuusuke]

No, Vegita has realised that he cannot match Goku. Nothing to do with his pride (for once).
I guess. . .I'll quote ^_^;;
I've already used this sig before, as parts, oh well.
Though, it was a lot better watching, or reading (manga, the pics).
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"Kakaroto, you're quite impressive. I never stood a chance against Buu. You're the only one who can fight him. I think I finally understand why a genius like myself can't surpass you. I thought it was because you had something to protect. I thought your drive to protect allowed you to take advantage of capabilites. . .This may be a reason, but now I too have this reason. I fought to do as I wished, because it was fun, to kill enemies, and for my pride. But he's different. He fights not to win, but because he absolutely won't lose, causing him to surpass his limits. But he really doesn't care who happens to be his opponent. So when he didn't kill me when he had the chance. . .It was like he knew I had the potential to care for others that I have now. Fight hard Kakaroto. You're number one."
Vegita

[eva2000]

nice quote... now where have i heard that before ;) :lol:

[Yuusuke]

Well, do you seriously know where I put that quote? I'm having the hardest time keeping track of used quotes.
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"Trunks, take good care of your mom."
Vegita

[Ko Hakaisha]

Don't worry, Yuusuke, I'm on it. :\

And Vegita does turn goodguy at the end of season 2, when he promises to help Kulilen and Gohan fight the Ginyu force.

[Wolfpac]

I thought he promised to help fight the Ginyu force so he could make a wish (Krillen had 1 of the dragonballs)

[eva2000]

yeah that's what i thought as well ?

[Yuusuke]

Well, a wish for immortality does become useless when he has a family.
Oh, and Kai, good work. ^_^;;
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"This is the first time he's fought on the behalf of the others. . .He's going to sacrafice himself."
Piccolo, in regards to Vegita

[Ko Hakaisha]

I never said he didn't.

[points to Vegita saving Kulilen and Gohan from three-eyed green frog-thing] That, however, was unnecessary.

[eva2000]

well diadora (spelling?) was just a pain in Vegita's back side...

[Yuusuke]

I know, just stating.
As some might think Vegita's pure evil. . . *points to passerby*
And some might agree with those others *points to small dog*
And most of them would be right, just a little though. . .*blinks*
__________________
"I'm going to blow you to so many pieces, you won't be able to regenerate!" *Goodbye, Bulma. . .Trunks. . .and you too, Kakaroto. . .*
Vegita

[Ko Hakaisha]

But, as I tried to point out, Vegita didn't HAVE to save Kulilen and Gohan. He saved them anyway, though. [shrugs] He was turning good ... or something.

[Yuusuke]

Well, of course he didn't really need to save them. He just gradually becomes good, slowly, of course.
Well, back to my mail.
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"Vegita and I underestimated you. We didn't think it was possible for Buu to be this strong."
Goku, to Majin Buu and Babidi

[Wolfpac]

I thought that Vegeta Saved Krillen and Gohan from the 4-eyed frog guy because he had a score to settle with him.

[Yuusuke]

That could have waited though. ^_^;;
__________________
"You surprised me, especially since you have that blank look on your face. You're a genius! You're able to instantly figure out your opponents attack and make it yours."
Goku Super Saiya-jin 3, to Majin Buu

[ryezen]

As of now, i would have to consider Vegita as a good guy - he only uses his bad guy attitude to hide his real feelings.

oh, in the Cell saga, Vegita already concedes that Kakaroto is better than him. He also says sorry to Gohan for saving his life - Vegita? say sorry?

[Schizm]

Well, I think Vegita saved the two earth boys because he knew that he'd need their help to defeat the remaining Ginyu Force members

[Pen2]

Sorry are we talking Vegeta as he currently is or Vegeta ultimately? In the end Vegeta wouldn't have been wished back by "all good people killed" Goku comments on that. When he gets Possesed by Babidi he still maintains control, and "postpones :)" his fight with Goku to go fight Buu. But as of the series at this point? He's a bastard. It's not until the end of the Freiza saga that Vegeta starts his long trek to redemption. Still, good or bad, he kicks ass :D

[Ko Hakaisha]

Vegita as he currently is is an unwilling goodguy. He thinks he's still evil, he wants to be evil, but he's already saved Kulilen and Gohan (no, Vegita didn't think that he would need their help! He thought that he was twice as strong as Captain Ginyu himself!!).

[Tristan9480]

Vegeta, as an immortal, could have repopulated the saiyan race and become a God himself. That would have been far better than hooking up with that loud mouth braod of his.

[Access]

Well consider this, the only way someone can become a super saiyan is if they are pure, ie either pure evil, or pure good... so if Goku, Trunks, Gohan all tranform for they are pure good, Vegita must only be able to transform if he is only pure evil. But on many occasions in the movies Vegita saves everybody especially Trunks (for obvious reasons). So he is not pure good or evil... can anyone clarrify.

[Tristan9480]

Actually, if you think about it Vegeta never really achieved any of the other levels by himself, except for the first level and its abilities.
SSJ Pure evil(I guess)
SSJ2 Charmed by Babidi
SSJ3 never achieved
SSJ Oozaru wasn't achieved by himself, it had to take Bebi's pocession and Bulma's brute ray to work.
SSJ4 A upgraded brute ray machine was used on Vegeta

[eva2000]

brute ray machine ? :confused:

what's this ?

[Yuusuke]

So, skip GT, and not count level 4 (which shouldn't be a level). Oh, and Eva2000, the brute ray was a machine Bulma built for Vegita which basically amplified the moon so he could achieve the Golden Oozaru state, which then allowed him to achieve Super Saiya-jin 4 :(

He achieved the first Super Saiya-jin level by himself because he was pure evil ^_^;; (Oh, and also because he knew that he couldn't become Super Saiya-jin).
He couldn't achieve the next level because he was neither good nor evil (I guess, and also that he might not have trained hard enough). So he lets Babidi charm him to become evil again (mainly so he can fight Goku like how he used to be).
And no one is really supposed to use Super Saiya-jin 3 if they are not in the afterlife anyways (Goku using all his energy and losing many hours he should have had on Earth. Gotenks only staying fused as Super Saiya-jin 3 for 5 minutes).
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"I had a family, and I liked it."
Majin Vegita

[Ko Hakaisha]

When did he first reach the first SSJ level?

[Yuusuke]

During the 3 years that they (the Saiya-jin, etc) have to train until the android saga. . .Vegita first goes Super Saiya-jin sometime then.
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"You don't feel pain, do you? Lucky you."
Vegita, to Juukyugou

[Ko Hakaisha]

Well, then that means that he couldn't have been pure evil! I mean, he's training to defend the earth, so why would he be considered pure evil?

[Yuusuke]

He's training to become a Super Saiya-jin. He sees that Goku has become a Super Saiya-jin and (knows) that there can be only one Legendary Super Saiya-jin (as it seems). He then sees Trunks, who is also a Super Saiya-jin (and a half breed, no less). He then knows that he can become a Super Saiya-jin as well, so he trains for that (800x+ gravity of Earth).
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"Ryouga! Where've you been!?"
Akane Tendou, being oblivious

[Tristan9480]

Also, some people keep asking how Vegeta can still be evil and be able to achieve super saiyan. Well, think of it this way, Vegeta new Gokou was stronger then him and that if he where to hurt or injure his friends and family that would really ---- him off, so this is one reason he wouldn't do such a thing. Another thing is, that you can still tolerate someone even if you can't stand the site of them. Maybe Vegeta found that Krillan and Gohan were of some use to him in a way and killing them would be pointless. Vegeta had Nappa for years and also Radditts and he couldn't stand them and he could care less if they died or not. Take me, I can't stand my cousins, but I won't beat the hell out of them simply because they're family, I don't care for them any but simply because they're family keeps me from beating the living lard out of them.

[Pen2]

Or: the rule about being pure-hearted isn't true

[Yuusuke]

Well, I've never heard the pure heart rule anywhere except in one line (manga) said by Kulilen. I'm pretty sure it was meant to be true if Toriyama added that in though.
Like how Yamucha told Marron (one or two 'r's?) that Kulilen was the strongest human fighter alive, which seemed to mean that Toriyama wanted everyone to know that.
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"Why haven't you been trying? Fight me for real!" Vegita
"Alright, just a little." Perfect Cell

[Pen2]

Or maybe it was a rule that was supposed to be broken. There was also supposed to be only one Super Saiyajin now wasn't there ;)?

[Access]

Yeah well I heard them say that in one of the movies... dont know which one though..... did you notice that Vegita gets a receeding hair line as he gets older... hehehe thats funny.

[eva2000]

hi Access haven't seen you around much... how's the studying going ?

[Access]

Well... I am trying to not be here at all.... lol

And I am on two weeks holidays... my first week was in Warnambool... I just got back tonight.... tomorrow I will start studying again.... I have had my holiday... its back to work....

[Ko Hakaisha]

Well, it never said that there'd be one Super Saiya-jin. It only said that there was a legendary Super Saiya-jin. Now, this could be meant to say that there would be tons of Super Saiya-jins, but only ONE Legendary Super Saiya-jin. [blink] Okay, that's what I think.

And who's Maron? And when did Yamcha say that??

[Yuusuke]

Marron was an old girlfriend of Kulilen, looked just like Bulma, I believe she was in fillers only (was it Kulilen? can't remember well).
Maron is the name that Kulilen gave to his and Juuhachigou's daughter.
Or maybe Maron was the old girlfriend, and Marron the child. Well, either way.
Oh, and Yamucha said that quote during the 23 (?) Tenkaichi Budokai, the one right before Buu's ressurection.
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"You're small Lina."
Naga, to a Lina Inverse that immediately covers her chest.

[Ko Hakaisha]

Ah-ha! Says something for King Kai's training, now doesn't it.

Guess I'd better make a new thread about it, then. ^^

[Pen2]

Okay let's look at this objectively


Who here believes Vegeta had a pure heart when he turned SSJ?

Well then how did Babidi possess him then?

So IMHO the pure heart rule is just a little bit absolutely wrong. As for the Legendary SSJ....too twisted and hypothetical, i'm leaving you with the benefit of the doubt.

[Yuusuke]

I believe that Vegita believed that he had a pure evil heart when he first turned Super Saiya-jin. ^_^;;
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"Now that he's a Super Saiya-jin, I think that Vegita may be stronger than Goku."
Piccolo

[Pen2]

details details.....:)

if that were absolutely true, explain his relationship with bulma? (it feels weird debating against a Moderator :) )

[Yuusuke]

Heh, arguing with a mod must be fun ^_^;;
Oh, and about his relationship with Bulma, I believe that happened during/after he became Super Saiya-jin. Or maybe he originally 'got together' with her because he could use the wealth and technology her family had to offer. (Super gravity machines and food).
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"Can I have seconds. . .and thirds?"
Goku

[Pen2]

If he had a pure evil heart, why was he able to KEEP turning SSJ throughout the series?

[Yuusuke]

Because after turning Super Saiya-jin the first time, it becomes much easier to keep in the state (with practice).
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"First, we'll train to lose the extra weight we feel when we're Super Saiya-jin."
Goku, to Gohan

[Pen2]

ehhh.....

[Ko Hakaisha]

I'm going to toss my two cents worth in here.

Vegita's heart was no longer pure evil near the battle with the Ginyu force. It was turning good, but he was still evil. He was beginning the long transformation. After a while, he did become pure good, and could turn SSJ. So, lucky him. Then we reach Babidi. Babidi could control Vegita or whatever you want to call it because Vegita was ONCE pure evil. Thus, Babidi can find the once-evil in a person and amplify it to suit his needs.

Alright, call it what you like, but that's my whole take on this issue.

[Yuusuke]

Actually, Babidi could only charm (the word I'll use) Vegita because he let Babidi do it.
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"Vegita, you didn't. . .you didn't allow Babidi to charm you just to fight me?"
Goku

[Ko Hakaisha]

[blink] Um, alright. I guess that doesn't change the whole of my theory, though.

[Yuusuke]

How about this ^_^;;
He let Cell absorb Juuhachigou to reach his perfect form, does that count as part of Vegita's being pure good? He also risked Trunks (baby)' life, I forgot when it was, but it did happen in the Android/Cell saga, I know for a fact.

Well, just my trying to disprove your theories :) (Oh, btw, I'd get on ICQ, but it says my network connection is down. baka program).
__________________
"What would you rather do?
Train so hard until you face the mouth of hell.
Or look at women in a bath?"
A young Happosai, getting the better of the older Happosai

[Ko Hakaisha]

I never claimed Vegita was perfect, I just said that he was good/not evil.

Besides, you yourself have offered information (someplace on this board) that Vegita actually did care for his family and friends. So, I'm sure he had his own demented reasons for risking Trunks life. Maybe, uh, he knew that if Trunks were to survive, he'd be a lot stronger than before ... [crickets chirping]

[Yuusuke]

Yes, Vegita does become good. . .but not 'pure good', oh, and I just like (trying) to mess up your theories and contradicting your comments ^_^;;
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"Even though we're both Saiya-jin, you surpassed me. Me, the Saiya-jin no Ouji that was so proud of his power. You even saved my life. . .I can't forgive you for that!"
Majin Vegita, to Goku

[Ko Hakaisha]

Oh, I'd never be so bold as to say that Vegita became pure good. I don't think that even Goku is pure good. ^^

And I know where you're coming from, Yuusuke. Hehe, I do that quite often, myself.

[Yuusuke]

But. . .you did say 'after a while, he did become pure good' in a previous post by you ^_^;;
Oh, and it is quite fun to contradict people. . .
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"She's like a wild animal."
Gourry, commenting on the behaviors of a trapped Lina Inverse

[Ko Hakaisha]

Oops, m-hm. Guess I need to edit that.

[Yuusuke]

Hm. . .I believe I can also edit that ^_^;;
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"It's driving me nuts not being able to pay that guy back! Ooh, is he gonna be sorry!"
Lina Inverse

[Ko Hakaisha]

:p