Iron town = Good or Bad?

[Benard Strass]

In your opinion was Iron town a good or a bad thing?

-what do you think and why?

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

Well it's hard to tell, which is one of the beauties of Princess Mononoke. It truely is hard to tell which is wrong. Iron town keeps people happy and fairly safe, gives lepers a chance and life and hookers a REAL life with husbands etc. But on the other hand the kills the enviroment. I don't need to tell u this I know.. I think it is a good thing. It sucks that the planet etc dies as a result, but the people within it weren't so bad, and change is inevitable. The gods time had come to an end, as will the human's time. the animals had a general hatred and dislike for humans, but humans still managed to respect the animals but for a minority who were greedy. They just wanna make the iron to get money for a happy life, not go and kill everything. As opposed to the boar etc who would make no compromise to change and thus resorted to violence which kills humans only trying to have a decent life. Not even the town leader was so greedy, she too was just trying to raise the standards of living. Survival of the fittest, u think those animals woulda cared if their forest was killing humans?

[Bishdariel]

Originally posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Survival of the fittest, u think those animals woulda cared if their forest was killing humans?

hehe, thats what humans usually say when they only have the profits in their mind! if the forest would kill humans, it would be his god given right, cause he gives and he takes, like everything in nature. everything is connected with each other. the animals and the gods of the forest take what the need, but not the humans. the humans in iron town want far too much. to much for the forest to stay alive and thats what bothers the gods of the forest. it is not the fact that there live humans near the forest, it is just the actions the humans keep going. the slow killing of the forest isnt good for both sides! what will happen if there are no more trees to burn. humans will leave this odd place and everything else has gone way before and nothing is left excepts a death place. so my vote goes against iron town, though they have good intentiond there.

[So Full of Mercy]

Good and bad, for reasons stated above.

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

the humans of iron town weren't being greedy, and tho the forest may have possibly eventually died, the fact of the matter doesn't change, that the animals only care about themselves and thus why should they be given sympathy in this matter simply because they were the losers? The humans didn't have any negative thoughts towards the animals (except those that had lost husbands to em) but the animals ALL hated the humans. The animals couldn't accept change and thus were swallowed by it. fighting only speeds up the process of change, in this case they started mass-burning the forest. had the animals sought compromise or something then it may have worked out all right for a few generations until a new solution could present itself.

[Butters]

I'm gonna break the fence-sitting trend and go with bad. Yeah yeah, she did rescue those ho's and lepers, but what she did to the forest was wrong, and deep in Iboshi's conscience, I think she knew that. She did not directly confess what she did, in the end, was wrong, but it certainly sounded like one.

I think she knew that she could have made a compromise, and as a human - a 'so-called' better [gotto very PC these days :D] race, she should be the one to do so, because all the forest animals only know violence as a means to an end. Of course she didn't compromise until she lost an arm, which made her realise that she had to.

Also the fact that she even tried to employ Ashitaka to rid the forest right after his arm tried to kill her shows just how unthinking she is. She didn't even attempt to look at the situation in another perspective.

I know that she helped those poor people from the city, but I think the negatives outweigh the positives, not that I'm diminishing either.

*Phew! Takes in a much needed deep breath* :)

[Nagha's revenge]

Ow a free-for-all !!

I'm gonna cut you all !! The only 'good' in the movie was the forest spirit!

Now .. Beasties were bad. Why ? Well not because of what Pengi said:

the animals only care about themselves and thus why should they be given sympathy in this matter simply because they were the losers? The humans didn't have any negative thoughts towards the animals (except those that had lost husbands to em) but the animals ALL hated the humans. .... had the animals sought compromise or something then it may have worked out all right for a few generations until a new solution could present itself.


Sorry but this is bullshit. Thank you. The lady didn't care about the animals she didn't even care that much about men. This was her sanctuary, her little world where she could make a paradise for her own reasons. If she had to kill to reach that goal so be it. This makes her ruthless. No she did not hate th forest. It merely stood in her way and would be dealt with. No the ppl od iron town did not hate the forest. All they did was tend to their own needs and fear the forest in ignorantes. All motivs here are considered bad and a hotbed for conflict, death and destruction.
The beasties were bad not because they hated all humans, for they did not (only the Boars tribe, who was indeed growing more ignorant and stupid). The wolf tribe was suprisingly tollorant considering how the humans provoked them, they had wisdom. The ape tribe only felt frustration over loosing the forest in the end they just became more 'human' because of it, just like the boars. The beasties were bad because they were selfish. They only cared for their forest, for their own service to the forest spirit. They reacted without thought like the mindless animals the are not. They could have cared less about the iron but they cared for the trees, their home. They sought blind vengeance on the humans. They were static, unchanging, not open to change, compromise or evolution. They just held on to hard to old beliefs and rituals. These are also bad motivs

Butters said:


She did not directly confess what she did, in the end, was wrong, but it certainly sounded like one.

I think she knew that she could have made a compromise, and as a human - a 'so-called' better [gotto very PC these days ] race, she should be the one to do so, because all the forest animals only know violence as a means to an end.

Also the fact that she even tried to employ Ashitaka to rid the forest right after his arm tried to kill her shows just how unthinking she is. She didn't even attempt to look at the situation in another perspective.


She did confess. She said she was killing the forest spirit with every tree they cut. This was a favour she was fulfilling for Jigo. She did not have to negotiate she should have just let the ape tribe replante the trees and all would be dandy.
And she did try to get Ashitaka to join her. That's why she showed him the lepars and that's why she let him try and warn San. She did look at thing from another perspective only this was the only way she saw to reach her goal. Like she said " Gods I can handle. It's humans I worry about.". She thought what she was doing for the ppl was more important than what she was doing to the forest.

But in the end the forest began to return and everyone grew slightly wiser animals and humans. Now something to spin in your heads.
Did the forest spirit die or commit suicide? Did it realise times had changed and things had to move on ? Did it save the forest in the end ? And did it really die ?
Perhaps it saw killing itself as the only sollution to this problem. Don't forget it's a god of life and death. Did it sacrefice itself so humans and animals could have a second chance ? So they would have the abillity to grow ? Is this ability to grow why he killed the boar god and the wolf god, but let the boy live ?

[PenPen2]

Well put Nagha! Now I don't have to post. LOL... Most of the stuff you said was what I was going to say. :P

[Nagha's revenge]

Originally posted by PenPen2
Well put Nagha! Now I don't have to post. LOL... Most of the stuff you said was what I was going to say. :P

Feel free to repeat anything sweets I don't mind :lol: .

[Butters]

Originally posted by Nagha's revenge
That's why she showed him the lepars and that's why she let him try and warn San...She thought what she was doing for the ppl was more important than what she was doing to the forest.

I think Iboshi just let him go out of indifference. She probably thought that Ashitaka would never reach San in time, and that she would probably die that night. I'll stick with my original claim that she was not looking at it from another perspective.

Again, I still think that Iboshi's primary goal was 'prosperity' of the region over the townfolk, with her claim that the area would be the richest of all the lands. For example, she forsaw the betrayal of the riflemen, but decided to go kill the forest spirit anyway. Not very protective of her town was she? Afterall, she could have attacked it at her leisure.

[Nagha's revenge]

Originally posted by Butters


I think Iboshi just let him go out of indifference. She probably thought that Ashitaka would never reach San in time, and that she would probably die that night. I'll stick with my original claim that she was not looking at it from another perspective.

Again, I still think that Iboshi's primary goal was 'prosperity' of the region over the townfolk, with her claim that the area would be the richest of all the lands. For example, she forsaw the betrayal of the riflemen, but decided to go kill the forest spirit anyway. Not very protective of her town was she? Afterall, she could have attacked it at her leisure.

She couldn't stop him .. she was unconcies.. she knew the wolf girl wouls attack her.. Because she knew the girl hated her. THe mere fact that she could indeed forsee betrayel by Jigo's rifflemen points towards her looking at things from a different perspective. But she represents human civilisation she needed Jigo's help plus she owed him. It may have seemed she wasn't very protective but she actually just had confidence in their abilities to last out without her.
She couldn't have attacked it at her leisure cuz she didn't know where it was plus the gods themselves would have stopped them. Due to the boar slaughter they were weakend and in disarray. Well there is also the fact that when the forest spirirt smells human it will prolly not show..

[Butters]

Originally posted by Nagha's revenge
She couldn't stop him...she was unconcious...she knew the wolf girl would attack her, because she knew the girl hated her. THe mere fact that she could indeed forsee betrayel by Jigo's rifflemen points towards her looking at things from a different perspective...Due to the boar slaughter they were weakened and in disarray. Well there is also the fact that when the forest spirirt smells human it will prolly not show..

Well, we're digressing from the topic a little, but these nitpicks are still relevent in proving the title of the thread ;)

Now, you are mixing the two topics, which I don't think you should do, because both are different and hold little relevence to each other.

1. She does not see things from a different perspective when she foresees Jigo betrayal. It is blindly obvious and does not require much effort to realise, so it may have required a small/no change in perspective, but insignificant compared to that which she experienced in the end.

2. She was able to attack the forest spirit at her leisure. It was only Jigo's desperation/greed who forced her to attack sooner, otherwise, for her own reason, she would have been able to attack it at her leisure, especially when she had time to recouperate her forces after the attack of the boar and wolves. Afterall, the forest spirit isn't going anywhere.

Now here's the hard bit. Tying it back to the thread. I'll try...----, I lost it. I'm sorry, there's just no point in continuing this line of argument :heh:

[Nagha's revenge]

Originally posted by Butters

1. She does not see things from a different perspective when she foresees Jigo betrayal. It is blindly obvious and does not require much effort to realise, so it may have required a small/no change in perspective, but insignificant compared to that which she experienced in the end.

No she sees why Jigo would want to take over the town. Thus she would have to shift perspective to Jigo's. She knew the wolf girl would attack her and walk into her trap. She put herself in her shoes. What she experienced in the end was gaining perspective on the whole. She did not see things from a different perspective rather that she was finally distanced from the entire situation instead of just being stuck in the middle she saw her errors. But this is all moot you have already admitted that she did look at things from another perspective :D (last scentence) .


2. She was able to attack the forest spirit at her leisure. It was only Jigo's desperation/greed who forced her to attack sooner, otherwise, for her own reason, she would have been able to attack it at her leisure, especially when she had time to recouperate her forces after the attack of the boar and wolves. Afterall, the forest spirit isn't going anywhere.

Also wrong. She did not know where he was/lived. And as the hightwalker he was nearly invinceble. Her plan was to kill him slow by de-foresting the area. That is why she stopped the ape-tribe from planting the tries it would strengthen the Forest spirit once again. She did not attack it directly because she knew it was near suicide. Jigo forced her into a direct confrontation. She did not have all the time in the world. The forest spirit may not go anywhere but she needed to be free from Jigo and have his influence to deal with her other problem (I forget the name of the army or whatever that besieged them). Without Jigo or his help she would have lost her town for sure. This was the best way she could see. And for her it WAS the best way...


This has been fun now admit defeat ;) .

[Butters]

Originally posted by Nagha's revenge
This has been fun now admit defeat ;) .

I'll concede if you can effectively, logically and simply show how your argument can tie back to why Irontown is bad/good. :dot:

[Nagha's revenge]

Simple, good does good.
Bad does bad.
If we had the colour gray both Beasts and Iron Town would be gray but, this is not within the realm of discussion.
Therefor if something does something bad it cannot be good anymore so Irontown is bad. This cannot apply for good, good is to strikt a term for it too apply.

Then again you can argue anything believe what you want ;) .

[Butters]

Originally posted by Butters
I'll concede if you can effectively, logically and simply show how your argument can tie back to why Irontown is bad/good.

:confused2 :hmmm: You think you have done that?

[Orky Da Bad]

Well, I can't remember if this is what was said in the sub, but I can remember it in the dub because of that stupid pause... "Eyes unclouded by, hate."

Well, this isn't exactly my opinion, as I personally lean towards Iron Town as the antagonist, despite the directors apparent wishes. But maybe his reasoning lies in the moral that violence is not the answer. Since both sides resorted only to violence to solve the problem, then neither can be right... I dunno, actually I'm not quite sure what to believe, because that simple moral sounds way to... well, simple for the movie. I don't like to think of it all as simple, because its really not...