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View Full Version : The Earth Federation the bad guys?


Knight Sabre
30-12-2001, 04:57 PM
I was watching 0079 on my computer and I got to thinking. (Well Im already a Zeonist.) But, I mean, all Zeon wants is independence. Judging from pre-0079 things that Ive read. The Feds were pretty harsh. I mean, (I just said this.) All the Principality wants is independence! The Feds are being to tyrannical. Anyway, share your thought and opinions on this.

Magus Zeal
30-12-2001, 05:18 PM
Hmmmmmmm, your right. FEDS SHOULD GO TO HELL!

Knight Sabre
30-12-2001, 05:18 PM
Thats what I say.

Hyaku Shiki
30-12-2001, 06:50 PM
I don't really think that there are any bad guys at all in Gundam Series(some), considering that "Bad Guys" and "Good Guys" between the Feddies and Zeeks switch a lot. Such as 0080. It could make you think Feddies are the Bad Guys, when they're not either. It's the same thing with Zeon too.

Sheex, The Dark Stalker
30-12-2001, 07:05 PM
I agree that in Gundam series the bad guys are given enough development and motivation so they're not the typical bad guys. Many of the Zeons (Char, Ranba Ral & Hamon, Lalah, many minor soldiers) are shown as good people. But to support the Zeon over the Federation? I don't think so. Remember what the Zekes did? Launching nuclear weapons at the other Sides? Using poisonous gas to kill everyone in the colony, then dropping it on Earth, killing even more people? I think the choices of the Zabis is more than enough to be opposed to Zeon, atleast in my case.

Magus Zeal
30-12-2001, 07:41 PM
Sheex, you forget that if the Feds just said "Okay, go do whatever you want," would have prevented all of that destruction. Knight Sabre has a point here.

Sheex, The Dark Stalker
30-12-2001, 09:52 PM
That doesn't excuse what they did. I have a feeling that many of you like to latch on the Zeons because they're 'cooler' and have better looking Mobile Suits. Thats fine, just don't go saying the Zeons are the good guys and the Feddies are the bad guys. Thats not the case -- in this series anyway.

Magus Zeal
30-12-2001, 10:39 PM
I don't attach to the Zeon because of that, I like them because they do have more of a reason to fight. ALL THEY EVER WANTED WAS INDEPENDENCE!

Sheex, The Dark Stalker
31-12-2001, 01:12 AM
Does the end justify the means? No. The Zeons killed billions of civilians. The Feddies killed the Zeon soldiers, not much more. That earns them the villain role in my book.

Sergeant Wittmann
31-12-2001, 03:31 AM
Both sides are pretty scummy. But Zeon is by far the scummiest. I don't know what else to call dropping a space colony on Australia. WHAT HAVE THE AUSTRALIANS EVER DONE TO ANYONE?

I used to make the mistake of equating Feds and Zeons with America and Nazi Germany or America and Islamic extremists respectively. This is a bad way to look at it.

Really it should be Feds = Soviet Union, Zeon = Nazis. Both sides were astoundingly scummy in WW2, but since the Germans drew first blood they were scummier.

Come to think of it, there are many more comparisons to draw on between Zeons and Germans etc., but I won't.

Emma
31-12-2001, 04:59 AM
In UC Gundam, most of the parties are not good at all. They are bad and worst. In 0079, Zeon is considered as the bad guy but does Earth Federation doing all the right things. The let the 13th independent team (White Base) run for their lives all the time.

As in Zeta and ZZ, EF acts like villians most of the time.

Knight Sabre
31-12-2001, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Sheex, The Dark Stalker
That doesn't excuse what they did. I have a feeling that many of you like to latch on the Zeons because they're 'cooler' and have better looking Mobile Suits.

If I did that, what would be the point of this post? I beleive it what the Zeon's did, no matter how "scummy." I love Zeon and will never break away from it.

Eddy
31-12-2001, 10:45 AM
America vs Japan. Japaneese bomb pearl harbour so Americans drop two nuclear bombs on two of their largest cities. I think neither side is right, but Zeon are the most destructive and unfair.

the situation is simmilar to Nadesico's. no good side or bad side. that's what makes anime so great compared to western animation. with disney it's always good vs evil.

Knight Sabre
31-12-2001, 12:35 PM
Wrong.

Sergeant Wittmann
31-12-2001, 01:45 PM
Neither side was right, huh? Did the Americans march into a city and rape every single female person there repeatedly regardless of how old or young, as in Nanking? Did the Americans draft women throughout Asia into sexual slavery as "comfort women"? Did the Americans ever eat Japanese soldiers? Did the Americans ever dissect Japanese troops in medical schools while they were still alive? Did Americans use the black plague to wipe out villages in China? World War 2 was the most morally justified war Americans have ever fought in and that same war was the Japanese peoples' greatest shame. Don't pass off revisionist history, please.

Knight Sabre
31-12-2001, 02:06 PM
Were not talking about WWII we're talking about The One Year War.

DarkPrimus
31-12-2001, 04:12 PM
Save for the obviously evil Nazi's from WWII, there have never truely been a purely bad and a purely good side in war. It's all shades of grey...

Scythe Wielder
31-12-2001, 07:07 PM
Except in cartoons, where usually it's pretty easy to see who's "black" and who's "white", right and wrong...The good thing about UC Gundam is that things aren't so simple, but in the end you can effectively argue the Zeon are originally "badder" than the Federation, even if in later series the Feds do become the "enemy".

WWII is such a touchy subject that it's extremely difficult to argue anything about it without irritating someone...only the millions of victims on all sides are innocent in the long run.

MauveVandal
31-12-2001, 07:20 PM
I don't think its fair to give anyone the title "bad", its not really who is right or wrong, justified or unreasonable but if the war was really worth every single human life lost at the hands of another. In war soldiers can't tell the difference between the "good" guys and the "bad" guys, they follow orders and do as told the only thing a soldier worries about is going back home alive to whatever family they have. Each side is consisted of living people, no matter how scummy, or "bad" they are. That's why I like UC Gundam there are no good and bad struggles, just people struggling to live with the idea that they must kill another to live.

Knight Sabre
01-01-2002, 01:22 AM
Please...no Philosipht.

Magus Zeal
01-01-2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Knight Sabre
Please...no Philosipht.
Yeah really.

Knight Sabre
01-01-2002, 01:32 AM
Heh, anyway, back on topic.....

MauveVandal
02-01-2002, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by Knight Sabre
Please...no Philosipht.

Sure, my comment might have sounded poetic but I get the point across that in UC there are no bad guys just people willing to fight for a cause.

Dryden-san
03-01-2002, 12:36 AM
The Zeon situation has always reminded me more of the French Revolution: a noble independence/equality movement that was hijacked by opportunists eager to use it to settle old scores or advance their own, selfish interests. Zeon Zun Daikon only wanted independence; the Zbi family assainated him and started a war of conquest, with all the attendant atrocities.

Judai Ikari
03-01-2002, 01:55 AM
What the fu-- <<I was about to go off on you aboutt eh French Revolution, and its irrelevance..but anyway.

Whomever you believe is bad, is bad..As it always is. cannot believe you even asked this.

Sergeant Wittmann
07-01-2002, 09:56 PM
I'm sorry Vandy, but in every story about war I've read soldiers care little, if at all, about their foes' wellbeing. In every war there might be one or two Quatres if that.
The biggest concern of soldiers that I have seen is the prospect of their own death or mutilation, the prospect of their friends' death or mutilation, and failure to live up to their duties.

Sure, someone could say that duties are thrown out by troops like useless gear after combat but those people are wrong. The soldier still has a sense of duty to something, usually his comrades but sometimes living up to traditions of their fighting unit, etc. Also to his country and/or ideology but this seems to fade into the background during the fighting.

Also, I think comparisons to previous wars is absolutely called for in understanding the conflict between Zeon and the Federation. Philosophy is also important.

DarkPrimus
08-01-2002, 05:04 PM
Just because the series revolves around the Feddies and White Base doesn't mean that they're the good guys.

Knight Sabre
08-01-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by DarkPrimus
Just because the series revolves around the Feddies and White Base doesn't mean that they're the good guys.

Clearly, evrybody working on that project wanted the viewers to say that the feds are the beaten up minority type, the one that shows how, not even how beat up he is can still win against unfavorable odds...YEAH RIGHT! GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK! LOOK! FEDS...WHOS LARGER? FEDS. ZEON....WHOS THE DAMN MINORITY AND LACKS MOBILE SUIT TECNOLOGY? ZEON. GEEZ! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS!

MauveVandal
08-01-2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Knight Sabre


Clearly, evrybody working on that project wanted the viewers to say that the feds are the beaten up minority type, the one that shows how, not even how beat up he is can still win against unfavorable odds...YEAH RIGHT! GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK! LOOK! FEDS...WHOS LARGER? FEDS. ZEON....WHOS THE DAMN MINORITY AND LACKS MOBILE SUIT TECNOLOGY? ZEON. GEEZ! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS!

Zeon lacking in Mobile Suit technology? Who was the first side to develop a battle ready Suit? Who was the first side to create a system made only for NewTypes? Who created the first Mobile Armor? Who made the first amphibious Mobile Suit? The Zeon doesn't lack Mobile Suit technology. Besides, it was 8 months into The One Year War both sides lost staggering amounts of soldiers. Not just the Zeon side, but the Federation as well. The Federation probably lost more, considering the space front was going in Zeon's favor until the development of Gundam. On Earth the Zeon had a large grasp on the Earth, from Asian, Europe, Africa and North America. The Federation was the smaller force. I may not be a Fed. but the Zeon was not so helpless, and powerfulless as you picture them.

DarkPrimus
08-01-2002, 07:05 PM
The Federation may have had the most advanced Mobile Suit(s) (The GunTrio), but Zeon had greater numbers, more different MS suits total, and a much more varied range of MS for specific combat.

Atticus
08-01-2002, 07:50 PM
hey people none of you have said this since the begginging and i figured i would add it.

have any of you people seen the intro to MSG?!?!?!?!
in it you will hear something along the lines of.

both side have lost half of thier respective poulations. and both sides were shocked at the horable atrocities preformed in the name of independance.

does it ring a bell??? do you think the americans fought by the english war standards row by row and firing at each other hopeing to break the line in the war of independance? no they did some pretty grusome stuff.
sometime to get what you want in war you can't just go around shooting here and there with a gun then get picked off. in Zeon's case i would say that because of the casualties Zeon figured that the feds would stop if they sacraficed civilians and droped a colony. when america retaliated for pearl harbor sure we went to okinawa and fought with soldiers but then we droped a nuke or two and won the war with Japan. do you think all the people in hiroshima were soldiers? no the were men women children cats dogs. the A-bomb doesn't just kill soldiers.

"scientists had to make thousands of calculations to build and determine the effects of the attomic bomb. computers and bombs have grown hand in hand."

MauveVandal
08-01-2002, 08:02 PM
The difference being, Zeon was using nuclear weapons, gassing colonies and the dropping them to kill more civilians. There are other ways to make your enemy surrender than a genocide of the human race its self! That's why I disagree with Zeon and their Operation British, I disagree even more with the Federation because during the Battle of Loum at Side 5 Zeon launches a nuke into the center of the Fed fleet. But then the Feds launch a nuke back at them, this led to the destruction of the Side 5 colonies. After Operation Britsh, and the Battle of Loum half the Human race was dead all in the name of Zeon's independence. Thats why people were sick of the war, it left Earthlings with a nuclear winter and spacenoids paranoid and afriad of being dropped on to Earth for the sake of Zeon's believes. That is the ultimate form of facism there is, a genocide of others to raise your ideals of other's lives. This is why I support AEUG, they fight for equality and don't want some huge war that ends up with the destruction of Sides and another nuclear winter. They launched an attack on the Titans to prove they were breaking a treaty, the Titans turned it into much more than that. With Zeon and the Feds. yes the Feds could have just folded and say "hey you want independence you got it" but Zeon had to declare war on the Federation and start dropping colonies and such. What either side did was wrong.

Atticus
08-01-2002, 08:36 PM
Vandalyes the Feds could have just folded and say "hey you want independence you got it" but Zeon had to declare war on the Federation and start dropping colonies and such.


Zeon wouldn't of dropped colonies if the feds had agreed. so Blah.

MauveVandal
08-01-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Atticus
Vandal


Zeon wouldn't of dropped colonies if the feds had agreed. so Blah.

They probably would turn people into slaves and claim themselves rulers. Eventually they would have killed each other off in the search for power.

DarkPrimus
08-01-2002, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by MauveVandal
The difference being, Zeon was using nuclear weapons, gassing colonies and the dropping them to kill more civilians. There are other ways to make your enemy surrender than a genocide of the human race its self!

Wrong. Genocide is the mass-slaying of a group or species. The "genocide" of the human race would require a few more billion lives than the colonies Zeon dropped, and as for the nuclear bombs...well, America is the only country to actually USE an atomic bomb for warfare, right? That doesn't mean that America is evil. Remember, the birds were flying on both sides.

Finally, killing civilians? Ha, that happens in EVERY war. EVERY SINGLE WAR. I cannot stress that enough. In fact, I seem to recall a trial of a former U.S. military man who was being tried for participating in the slaughter of defenseless Vietnamese villagers...

Good quote from a bad Gundam series: "Wars are heartless."

Sheex, The Dark Stalker
08-01-2002, 10:45 PM
You're mixing things up. They're 2 totally different circumstances. In the case of the US, we had 2 choices. Spend 2 years battling the Japanese, losing possibly millions of soldiers, or end the war in a day which in the long run would not only save the lives of many americans, but also the japanese. Its the lives of the thousands in Hiroshima/Nagasaki, or the lives of millions of American and Japanese soldiers. I don't see how anyone can think the US didn't make the right decision.

As for the Zeons... its like this. 5 of the sides support the Federation. 1 is neutral. 1 is on the Zeon side. Zeon gains a quick advantage by completely destroying 3 Federation supporting Sides in a week. They used nukes not to save the lives of Zeon and Fed soldiers, but to quickly remove the 3 Side's worth of resources from the Federation.

I don't get how you can even come close to comparing the two.

both side have lost half of thier respective poulations. and both sides were shocked at the horable atrocities preformed in the name of independance.
That statemen makes sense, but you have to look at it in the right context. What its not saying is that their respecitive populations were anything alike. When you watch the series, its not that hard to figure out. The Federation population consists of the Earth, and 5 of the Sides. The Zeon population consists of 1 Side. The Fed-supporting population was probably 10+ times the size of the Zeon population. Late in the series (episode 41 I believe it is) the narrator talks about how the Zeon homeland was completely untouched by the war and the civilians lived like a war didn't exist. How do the Federation supporting civilians live? Wait a minute, they don't. Their colonies were nuked and gassed without as much as a warning. Those on the Earth watch as colonies are dropped on them.

I don't get how anyone who has watched Mobile Suit Gundam can think the Zeons are good and the Feddies are bad -_-

Ukiki
08-01-2002, 11:10 PM
Hmm, i agree that there are no real good guys or bad guys, they just make it look like the Zeon are the bad guys. If you dont agree with me, watch 08th MS Team.

MauveVandal
09-01-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by DarkPrimus


Wrong. Genocide is the mass-slaying of a group or species. The "genocide" of the human race would require a few more billion lives than the colonies Zeon dropped, and as for the nuclear bombs...well, America is the only country to actually USE an atomic bomb for warfare, right? That doesn't mean that America is evil. Remember, the birds were flying on both sides.

It was a mass slaying of a group or species, it was HALF the human race all in the name of Zeon. Someone said that the Federation is facist, how so are they forcing their believes and ideals on to others? Maybe, but they don't kill anyone who doesn't such as Zeon did. Also, yes civilians are killed in wars but not so bluntly and uncaring as Zeon and the Federation was. The Titans are worse about killing civilians, they would gas a whole colony for having anti- Earth feelings. The Antarctic Treaty was signed thankfully, banning the use of nuclear weapons and chemcial warfare this includes colony drops.

Sergeant Wittmann
09-01-2002, 07:12 PM
Atticus, there's a big difference between shooting at guys from a bush and savagely tearing the lives out of billions. Not to mention that America fought many conventional actions. All of the important battles were fought conventionally. Saratoga was far from a mere guerilla raid.

DarkPrimus
09-01-2002, 07:48 PM
The Antartic Treaty is a joke. It doesn't last for even five years before it's thrown out the window.

MauveVandal
09-01-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by DarkPrimus
The Antartic Treaty is a joke. It doesn't last for even five years before it's thrown out the window.

Yeah, the GP02A breaks the treaty pretty much. The Antarctic Treaty is when all weapons of mass destruction, does this include Laser Cannons?

Knight Sabre
09-01-2002, 09:20 PM
Just as long as you seig.

DarkPrimus
09-01-2002, 10:13 PM
The Antartic Treaty was supposed to ban the usage of nuclear weapons by both the Federation and the Zeiks, but by the time 0083 was over, both sides had launched enough warheads to make the treaty moot.

MauveVandal
10-01-2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Knight Sabre
Just as long as you seig.

Not everybody likes Zeon, or the Federation or even the AEUG. Besides Zeon isn't worth my loyality, or Char for that matter.

The Antartic Treaty is an agreement to not use weapons of mass destruction, such as nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, and the gassing of colonies. But I was wondering does this include the Laser Cannon in the Zeon's arsenal.

Black_Knight
11-01-2002, 02:19 AM
You forgot colony drops…


Also the Federation is nothing more than an incompetant, corrupted group of usrpers who are draining the colonies reasorces…

SEIG ZEON!

MauveVandal
11-01-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight
You forgot colony drops…


Also the Federation is nothing more than an incompetant, corrupted group of usrpers who are draining the colonies reasorces…

SEIG ZEON!

Can't the same thing be said about Zeon, they are suppose to be protecting the colonies yet their dropping them like flies? Liars, and corrupt as much as the Federation.

Black_Knight
11-01-2002, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by MauveVandal


Can't the same thing be said about Zeon, they are suppose to be protecting the colonies yet their dropping them like flies? Liars, and corrupt as much as the Federation.

You forget, these colonies were Feddy Supporters or sympathizers, They knew the impending danger…

We also can't forget the 30 bunch incendent… The mass-Murder and exacutions of an entire colony at the hands of Federation Soldiers… And not to mention how most troops treat civies as well…

MauveVandal
14-01-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


You forget, these colonies were Feddy Supporters or sympathizers, They knew the impending danger…

We also can't forget the 30 bunch incendent… The mass-Murder and exacutions of an entire colony at the hands of Federation Soldiers… And not to mention how most troops treat civies as well…

That was the work of the Titans, who work indepedently from The Federation. And what about the nuclear threat aimed towards netural Side 6, sure there was Federation troops but is that reason enough to nuke a colony? In any case, both The Federation and Zeon are weak with even weaker causes.