conspiracy?

[Nairohe]

Is Gatts trully acting out of his own free will? Griffith was after all a manipulative individual who would do anything to get to his goal. He wanted Gatts because he knew his potential and how he was instrumental to his success. Griffith also mentions in one conversation with the princess that a friend to him was someone who was his equal. That person may as very well be Gatts. Is Gatts just blindly believing that he is acting on his own free will or manipulated into thinking that he is?

Griffith was chosen to be one of the gods because he simply did not care about the people he used to get what he wanted done. Gatts on the other hand did learn to care about the people closest to him which gave him humanity.

I'm confused... Did Griffith want Gatts to be his friend? Did he want Gatts to keep him from getting what he truly wanted? Did he know this was going to happen?

[bailz66]

A few good points and a few not so good points there

Gatts was always acting on his free will, all he wanted to do was kill things thats why he stayed with the hawks until they won the war. Gatts believed that he was griffiths friend although griffith didn't believe gatts was, griffith used gatts as a tool he was someone that he needed and used. when gatts heard griffith tell the princess that he was not a friend, sort of he did what he thought he had to... gatts believed he was griffiths friend and griffith believed that a friend would do his own thing and not do griffiths bidding and that is what gatts done.

Griffith cared for everyone there but was driven mad by being beaten by gatts when he was locked up and this meant that griffith was able to give up all his friends

anyway works over gtg

[Morbius]

Originally posted by bailz66
Gatts was always acting on his free will, all he wanted to do was kill things thats why he stayed with the hawks until they won the war

I disagree...

I think Gattsu was allowing himself to be led along by Griffith... He jumped from battle to battle, killing everything in his path because it kept him from having to make his own decisions and think about his future... Griffith kept him from having to make any decisions for himself thus eliminating his free will... Basically, he lived Griffith's dream for the time that he was with the Hawks... Gattsu only followed Griffith's will...

Only when he decided to leave did he gain back his free will...

[bailz66]

Caution spoilers below





I dissagree again, your response prompted me to do some investigating, When gatts first decides to leave caska chases him and asks him whether or not he is leaving and why..... Gatts says "I shouldn't be drawn into his dream" (end of episode 18)

He states in the next episode "to.... be buried in his dreams as is happening now.... is somthing i cant allow myself to do"

Caska believes that griffith may be able to stop gattsu

Judou and corkus talk to gattsu or gatts and ask him if there is anything he is dissatisfied with in which gatts says there is not.

Gatts states when refering to the time he spent with the hawks
"it feels like i was partying the entire time"

he was killing the entire time

Corkus states to gatts that "well.... when alls said and done your useless at anything other than killing... you probably dont even know how to dance ...."

Gatts says "your exactly right... im a man whos only got brains to wave a sword around"

He talks about the first time he killed and since then that is all he has know how to do and he says that he didn't care

As long as somebody noticed, His true quest was to kill so that he was noticed. Griffith noticed him and so did the entire band he was more well known that griffith "wasn't he the man who killed a hundred solders"

Gatts was happy killing for griffith but he also killed to be noticed, his own reason.

Gatts states "even still i met a man... a man who i wanted to notice me. that man had nothing and that man wanted everything"

he stated that that man (griffith) needed to maintain the edge above all others.

And finally after all the battles have been won gatts realizes that killing "counts for jack ----"

Gatts decides that "i dont want any of that. anymore to be looking up at his dream to be looking up at him"

He says he wants to be at his side when he has done somthing "with my own hands".... He wants to be his friend as griffith said that a friend was someone that could stand next to me not below me

corkus loughs at gatts saying this

gatts wants to win somthing for himself

Griffith was unable to fight for himself he lost his sward because of gatts he was tormented.

"It begins with with a duel it ends with a duel"

In looking at this i realized somthing else "gatts is always owned by someone except for the brief time that he leaves" Griffith says i own you your battlefield your death" this is what gatts is told in ep 1 when he has the dream.


Im looking forward to your reply morbius

[Morbius]

Well let me first point out that I'm not disagreeing with about anything after he decided to leave Griffith. I believe that once he decided to follow his own path he developed some control over his destiny and fate.

As you quoted before, Gattsu said "I shouldn't be drawn into his dream". Everybody who follows Griffith is drawn into his dream and although they achieve success and fame because of it they are still just sheep. Lambs to the slaughter, so to speak.

I guess the issue depends on your definition of free will. Is not choosing your own path and following someone else's dream having free will? I don't believe it is.

Bailz
Gatts states when refering to the time he spent with the hawks
"it feels like i was partying the entire time"

he was killing the entire time
Yeah. That's kind of my point. Is the so-called "killing time" a choice of free will on Gatts' part? I think it isn't a choice at all. He's just following Griffith blindly the whole time without ever thinking about his own dream. Griffith owns Gatts' will.

I guess what I'm saying is that Gattsu drifts through most of the series without any sense of purpose. He lives only as a hired killer for Griffith.

Well I suppose that what Gattsu did is what many of us do anyway. We drift through life without purpose until we can discover our path. But that's not living. It's just killing time.


Bah... I'm babbling tonight... I'll write something a little more intelligent and thorough later...

[MANTA]

I think there are two points being confused here. Gatss lack of free will or his lack of a concrete Goal. I believe Gatts always had free will, if he did not want to stay with the hawks he could just walk out on them one night exactly as he did eventually end up doing. The reason Gatts stayed with the hawks is because he wanted to. He enjoyed his time there, as he said it was unlike any of the other mercenary groups he has been in. Gatts always did what was on his mind, including ignoring the set orders during battle and rushing out on his own, he always had his free will. Gatts probably would have never thought of leaving if he hadn't overheard Griffith's conversation. It was after hearing Griffith's words that Gatts decided to pursue his own dream, something he had never thought about or cared much for before. Even before joining the hawks Gatts was content just roaming around endlessly, fighting for money. Afterwards all he cared about was helping Griffith and the Hawks, although he had no Dream of his own, he was content living that life.

I don't think Griffith prevented Gatts from thinking about his own dream, because Gatts never thought of his dream before he met Griffith, this is one of the first things Griffith noticed about Gatts, that he fought without a purpose. It could be that Gatts would have never thought about searching for his dream had he not met Griffith.

[Morbius]

Yeah... What he said... *points*

Actually, I agree with most of what is being said in this thread but I am just too lazy to get all my thoughts out on the subject...