Better off without Griffith?

[Nairohe]

Do you suppose the Hawks would've been better off if they hadn't come across Griffith? These men knew they already had the strength, intelligence as well as skills... though they never really had the courage... Griffith gave them a leader to guide these skills...

Judeau for example. If i remember correctly, he already knew he was a smooth talker, he was good at everything but he couldn't be the best which is why he followed Griffith.

Now, he would've realized that he was good on his own if Griffith didn't exist at some point wouldn't he? Do you think the band of the Hawks would've discovered their own strengths on their own and lead a happier life or did they really need to get that push from Griffith to discover what and how far they can go?

[TradeMark]

The Hawks were Griffith. Apart, they may have made fine soldiers somewhere, or mercenaries elsewhere, but under Griffiths command they became a single driving force, inseperable in his strength and tenacity. They beame part of his dream (though they themselves may not have identified it) and found purpose in his service. Without him, they'd simply be another skilled soldier. With him they were nigh-on dieties of war.

*spoiler*

The Hawks were Griffiths will, his tool to realize his dream. In the end, its not that they were betrayed (though individually they may have felt so) as they were simply completing thier service to Griffith. Not one of the Hawks didn't say at one point they'd give themselves for Griffith, though when faced with the ultimate sacrifice they were understandably aprehensible.
But on the otherside, there isn't a doubt in my mind had they been asked to give themselves under ofther circumstances, they'd have readily agreed. For example, had they been in a battle and Griffith led them on a suicidal assault (which he tended to do anyway) they would, and did follow. They had more than faith in Griffith, they, as the Hawks, had a purpose. Without that purpose, they'd merely be fighters, under Griffith they were warriors, zealots.

*sniff* i love this series, its fanart sketching time

[bailz66]

You could also think about it in a less serious way, without griffith caska wouldn't be apart of the group as well as a number of other fighters in the group. Also if they had have attempted to ambush Gatts without griffith they all would have been killed leaving no hawks anyway. I dont believe that griffiit wanted to betray the people who cared about him although in the end he truly hated gatts because he had surpassed him in every way he could imagion. Gatts became a leader, a hero and easily the strongest fighter. The band of the hawk (except caska) really betrayed griffith first when the chose gatts over griffith and that is why griffith lost his mind and why he betrayed the world.

GATTS RULES

And i must say that this series is probably one of the best animes i have seen

[Kayay]

Well, perhaps each one might have discovered their own strengths eventually, but Griffith was the force that drew those strengths out and honed them into one fighting force. Like Gatts, some of them may not have had any real purpose before they met Griffith nor the faith in themselves to reach their true potential.

Like you said, Judeau couldn't be the best which is why he followed Griffith. Griffith gave him purpose, and was part of something bigger by working with the other members of the Hawk and being part of Griffith's dream...IMO...

[Drizzten]

Basically what the others have said. Without good leadership and a solid sense of direction, that group of mercs would have been no different than any other. Griffith focused their energies and gave them a purpose. Whether that was because he deluded them or because he honestly inspired them, I'm not sure. The ending of the anime muddied that for me. However, it's undeniable that had Griffith never appeared, none of the Hawks would be anywhere near the position they found themselves near the middle of the anime.

Question, I forget this, but did the Hawks as a group actually exist before Griffith appeared...or was he part of it's creation?

[bailz66]

In the anime you never actually find out... the earliest stage you see the hawks at is in the place where caska is describing when she first met griffith ie when he stopped her from getting raped and at that time he was the leader of the group and the group was also small at that time

anyway i think its safe to say that griffith in the end became a hawk when he was a devil and i believe the hawks were named after him as griffith seemed so high above the rest

so i would say its fair to assume that griffith was there from the start

[Maccy99]

Gatts was the Hawks. The Hawks wouldn't have existed without Griffith but they wouldn't have become powerful without Gatts. This is evidenced by the fact that when Gatts left, the Hawks fell apart.

[Nagha's revenge]

Drizzten

Question, I forget this, but did the Hawks as a group actually exist before Griffith appeared...or was he part of it's creation?

Yes, the hawks were Griffith's army. And his responsebility.

Maccy99

Gatts was the Hawks. The Hawks wouldn't have existed without Griffith but they wouldn't have become powerful without Gatts. This is evidenced by the fact that when Gatts left, the Hawks fell apart.

No. If anything it proved that Griffith was the Hawks.

Explanation:

Griffith needed a sword and he chose Guts. He needed someone with a strength to equal his own.
We see in the second fight Griffith and Guts have that Guts himself would resort to anything to win. Even shove sand into Griffith's eyes to blind him or biting his sword to prevent him from winning.
Remember what Griffith said ? " I like you even more now. You would do anything to win." (Or something along those lines) Ever think about why he said that ?
Some eps forward:
After Guts killed(assasinated) the commander (or general) of the white (golden?) Dragons. Griffith was talking to the princes, he was ranting on about who he would consider a real friend. He said: " A real friend is someone who is on my level. Not someone who would blindly work with me to fullfile my dream. He would have his own and would do anything to fullfill it, even kill me." (again something along those lines)
Now to come full circle. Guts himself did not have a dream and because of that lacked the purpose and leadership, confidence. So even though Guts may or maynot have been stronger and faster Griffith would still be stronger because of his dream. But Griffith did acknowledge his strength and Guts' determination and dedication to win, even without an ultimate purpose or goal. THIS is why Griffith wanted him in the first place. Where Caska would suffice he wanted Guts, because Guts had his strength but not his focus.
But saying that Guts was the reason the Hawks became that powerful because of Guts is slightly unfounded. It's like saying a master marksman can only win a firefight with a handcannon, meanwhile a peashooter would suffice.
Now to take it home. The only mistake Griffith made eventually was loosing sight of his dream, he was too close to see clearly and he liked Guts too much for traits so similar to his own. Like Griffith said just before being rescued from the dungeon: " Now you are the light that shines so bright. I can hardly see." (Or something like that :sweatdrop )
Guts wanted to be like Griffith and in the end found his pupose. This can be seen in the fact that in the final battle between Griffith and Guts, Griffith had the same look Guts had when they fought a seconds time while Guts .. Well you get the picture.
Griffith felt scorned and betrayed and had to vent. The funny thing is even later that night when he went to see the princess, he looked at her as if she was his enemy. Or maybe he was thinking about Guts and not his dream, Griffith most likely did not even go by the hime's room because he needed comfort. It was because he had planned to all along, only now he failed because he had lost a friend (read: betrayed by a friend). Why I say this is because Guts at this point in Griffith's dream, had no real point. There were no battles to win, no enemies to cut down. Only time and politics.
Now because for the first time he lost sight of his goal he failed. And at that point the hawks fell as well. Let me repeat that : HE failed because HE lost sight, because HE felt there were other priorities all of a sudden.

So I don't go all off topic

I believe Guts said it best in the episode titled (I think) "Bonfire of dreams" (Or summit).
" They all collect their little flames together towards the great flame that is Griffith" (Apologies for the bad quotes but I'm doing this from memory and I haven't seen the series in a while).
Everyone piggybacks on Griffith's dream to fullfill their own, without Griffith their dreams would have been extinguist or consumed by the rest of the world.
Or if you preferre a more tangible metaphor: A teacher who sees potential in a child and tries to nurture this potantial, to let it grow or to guide it. Would this child be better off without this teacher then ? Isn't it better to seize that potential as early as possible then to come across it later ?
Now True in Beserk (Spoiler) the teacher killed his kids, but that is what Griffith was prepared to do all along. To kill anyone who stood in the way of his dream.(/spoiler) You know what they say .. It's better to have loved and lost then never to have loved at all .. (Yes I know .. That's another arguement >.< )