Kaoru

[Wolfpac]

How come Kaoru is spelt like this:
Kaoru
and sometimes like this:
Kaworu

...and I've also seen in some sites that Kaoru is refered to as
Tabris
What dose Tabris mean???

[Yuusuke]

Tabris is the angel's name.

And the name difference is like the spelling of Ryouga. (ie., can be spelled correctly as both Ryouga and Ryoga, also Ryooga).
__________________
"I'll be weak? Weak for the rest of my life!?"
Ranma Saotome

[fireguy]

Tabris is the name of the 17th angel which is Kaoru. He is also the only angel to take human form. Can anyone tell me why this is so?

[EVA UNIT 01]

I'm just guessing but I think it is so that he could infiltrate NERV and get to Adam so he could cause 3rd impact.....but hey that's just my guess

Hi Everyone!!!!!!!!!!

[Pen2]

::puts on best Ko impersonation::

hiya ^^

[Genesis]

Heyas,

This is just my understanding, but i think Karou was the result of the angel before him invading rei's mind and body, that's why he looks so much like rei in the face and all...probably accounts for the fre I'm probably just stating the obvious here but that's what i think anyway.

Cheers,

[Genesis]

Heyas,

This is just my understanding, but i think Karou was the result of the angel before him invading rei's mind and body, that's why he looks so much like rei in the face and all...probably accounts for the freaky girlish voice he has too. I'm probably just stating the obvious here but that's what i think anyway.

Cheers,

[Pen2]

Well I don't know much you've seen Genesis but here it goes

*Spoiler. put on your peril-sensitive sunglasses if you haven't seen the rest of the series*

The reason why Rei shares similarities to Kaouru (i.e. red eyes and whatnot) Is because she herself is an angel. go figure

[Paradox]

*More spoiler here as well*

Rei was an angel? I've always thought that was kinda debatable. She is half angel, but she is half human as well. Sort of.

And by the way, would Kaoru really be considered to be a true angel? Oh, I know that Nerv and all the Eva sites aknowledge him as the 17th angel, but he wasn't really sent by 'God' as the others were, but rather he was sent by Seele instead, a man made organisation.

[eva2000]

what about 'sent by god through man/Seele ?'

[Pen2]

or that he didn't exactly go through SEELE, but SEELE pointed Nerv in Kaouru's direction?

[Wolfpac]

So if Rei's an Angel (or Half) why didn't she merge with Adam eariler???

[EVA UNIT 01]

In episode 25, doesn't Rei initiate 3rd impact. That's why Gendo came to her and said "Let's go, this is why you were born" and she says "yes sir". So, if an angel comes into contact with Adam it will cause 3rd impact. :confused2:

[Pen2]

Adam? Where? Adam was implanted into Gendous hand. The creature on the cross is Lilith. just setting that straight.

Rei didn't fuse with Lilith because she wasn't ordered to. That is why when Rei declared her independence from Gendou and fuses of her own accord it is such a signifigant scene.

"I'm not your doll"

great stuff :)

[eva2000]

my eyes... my eyes... !

hehe i have already read about this scene... since i have yet to watch the Eva movies.....

question is how does one implant Adam into their hand ?

[ATh]

A it has been siad before, Tabris is never actually mentioned in NGE.

Also Rei is part Angel, Karou is full Angel. The Magi do not detect for the presance of Angels, only the presance of an A.t.Feild. dependin gon whther it is blood tpye blue or not, depends wheather they percieve it to be a target.

That how Rei goes by undetected (until ep 24).

Also humanity is the 18th angel, so Gendo implanting Adam into his hand sort of counts as contact. Why did 3rd impact not occur then.

my response is that something other than just contact had to be done.
for example SEELE had to initiate 3rd imapct with the Red Earth purification ritual.

ATh

[Access]

Kaoru is Tabris the Angel of free will, however their is no evidence to support this. All angels had no free will or consuious thought they just obediently followed gods orders using the gifts god have given them, if they happend to be 100m tall blades then so be it. Kaoru however sarcficed himself for the good of mankind... he made his own choice.. he chose to die, for it was his destiny to live forever. He represented an almost Christ like person.

Tabris was found by Seele, fooling him into believeing that Seele was trying to help Tabris reach its goal. Tabris entered the most secured area in Nerv, Central Dogma. He was not controlled by SEELE at all.

[Paradox]

See, this is what confuses me. In the movie, they use Kaoru dummy plugs in the Eva series. And in one of the episodes, we see that the dummy plug system for Unit one is just the spare Reis. So the logical jump is that the dummy plug system in the Eva series are spare Kaorus. And if they had spare Kaorus, they must have created them all at the same time. And so forth, and etc. So basically, for my theory to work, Kaoru must have been created by Seele, and been 'infused with angelness':) like Rei is.

Okay, so I have no real supporting evidence, and my logical jump might be over a 20 foot ravine filled with opposing evidence, but my main problem is where they get the Kaoru dummy plug system from.

[Hiyoku]

Kaworu and Kaoru are two different names, based on the Kanji.
Kaworu and Kaoru can, however, be the _same_ name, it's all in how it's _written_.
Example: Kaoru in Rurouni Kenshin is female, whereas Kaoru in Flame of Recca is male.
In Japanese, names have different meanings, derived from how they're written.
I'm not gonna go inta further detail lest I get off on a language tangent....^^;;

~Tasuki No Miko

"What? Cheese?"
"No!!!! BRIDGE!!!"
"Eh? I still don't know..."
~VoH

[David Ikari]

I heard that Tabris was the angel of Free Will, and God created man to have a soul (unlike other creatures he created) and to have Free Will. There fore if Kaworu was to have free will, he would be human as well as an angel.

[Access]

So David does that mean that anything with consious thought can be classfied as human, no.... it is mans arrogants that would allow him to believe that... we dont have to be the highest order of life...

"my main problem is where they get the Kaoru dummy plug system from."
Whats so difficult to understand, while Kaoru was with Seele, they made duplicates of him, digitised brain patterns, and since Angels are so close to humans Seele could duplicate is brain patterns easily. IF you mean where did Seele get the Dummy Plug it has been suggested that Ritsuko helped out Seele... but I dont believe that.

[Paradox]

Okay, but to my understanding, the Unit 01 dummy plug system used fully delevoped Rei clones as the dummy. If they try to duplicate him as you say, then they must have some instant cloning device not shown in the series, I guess. :D I can believe they could copy brain waves, but not duplicate him

>There fore if Kaworu was to have free will, he would be human as well as an angel.
This is more my kind of thinking. I would have thought that he was 'grown' by Seele like Rei was by Nerv, and he was made half Adam and half human like Rei, and that would be why they had duplicates of him for the Dummy plug system for the Eva series.

[Access]

"Okay, but to my understanding, the Unit 01 dummy plug system used fully delevoped Rei clones as the dummy."
No I would suggest that the actual clone is not put into the dummy plug, but even if it was it does not change anything.

"f they try to duplicate him as you say, then they must have some instant cloning device not shown in the series, I guess. I can believe they could copy brain waves, but not duplicate him."
Their are many things not shown in the series and movies... eg where they built the EVA series at other NERV branches.. and wasnt it a surprise to see that each Nerv Branch had a different MAGI system. What happend to Tokyo-1 and 2... none of this is shown in the series. So yeah, Seele has their own technology... thats not surprising at all. Well I dont think they need a cloning device, just a way to digitise brain patterns, but still even if they did clone him why could you not believe that. Seele had all the technology Nerv did, and they cloned adam and lillith before, why does it seem hard to believe they cloned Tabris.

"There fore if Kaworu was to have free will, he would be human as well as an angel.
This is more my kind of thinking. I would have thought that he was 'grown' by Seele like Rei was by Nerv, and he was made half Adam and half human like Rei, and that would be why they had duplicates of him for the Dummy plug system for the Eva series."

Well all the angels were predicted to come in the Dead Sea Scolls >2000 years ago.... and they were most probably created 350 million years ago when Adam first landed... most likely all the angels have been in embryo stage for millions of years only now awakened by Gods will, to test mankind.

[ryezen]

"There fore if Kaworu was to have free will, he would be human as well as an angel"

could this be why he tells Rei III that they are the same?

[Access]

""There fore if Kaworu was to have free will, he would be human as well as an angel"

could this be why he tells Rei III that they are the same?"

Well as I said I dont believe that Tabris is human at all! And that statement to ReiIII was said to give clues that Rei is part angel... which wasnt completely revealed until she expands her AT field in central dogma....lol

[neon angel]

How can u be sure if rei is half angel. Since she is half lillith, i guess. But, it is undetermined whether lillith is actually an angel because it says that she id th emother of humanity...
But, on the other hand, Kaworu is an angel. But how was he created? And how waas he created into a human form??

[Pen2]

hiya neon angel

Rei is half human because of Yui in her composition. Now for proof that Lilith is an angel, Rei is obviously part angel right? hence the whole A.T. field thing. so then Lilith must be an angel. otherwise Yui would have to be an angel (meaning Shinji is half-angel, don't go there)

[DeadManSeven]

There are heaps of inconsistancies with the spellings...Gendo/Gendou, Toji/Touju, Hyuga/Hyuuga, Maya/Maia...Kaworu/Kaoru. That's shoddy translation 4 U. :D

Anyway...can I put in my theory of why Kaworu takes human form? 'Kay...the second-last two Angels (15 and 16) were not there to merge with Adam. They were there to study their enemy: namely, the humans. The fifteenth Angel's attack on Asuka's mind was to probe and explore the ways and means of human thought patterns. Some people have theorised this to have been a mental rape, which indicates to me a total violation of Asuka's mind, right? So it took a good look at everything in Asuka's head to see how human's work.
Then we have the sixteenth Angel, which tries to uphold a converstaion with Rei by using a doppleganger of her. This shows that the Angels have now learned, or at least grasped, some idea of the human psyche. However, Asuka and Rei aren't exactly prime examples of a healthy psyche, but that's a moot point. (:))
And then come Kaworu, capable of imitating the human form, making him the ultimate to penetrate into Nerv and bond with Adam. however, because of his humanity and free will, he sacrifices himself for the humans.

*packs up his podium* Right, I'm done, you can all come back now...:D

[kaji]

we can debate whether an AT field is angel-power only because Kaoru defined wat n AT field was...the barrier of our minds

[ryezen]

i do not think that the angels were cooperating with each other... if you look at each of the angels, each succeeding one was more powerful than the last (oh really?), though each one had his respective strengths and weaknesses thus each one is also different. In EoE, Misato also says that "the other angels were possibilities" but the question is possibilities of what?

as of now i'll have to say that they were possibilities of humanity - thats why kaworu as the 17th angel looked nearly human...

[Bekkachan]

Adding to why Kaoru's name is sometimes spelt Kaworu.
The japanese language is separated into syllables, instead of letters like english, and each syllable is represented by a symbol (hiragana/katakana). So the japanese only use three symbols for kaoru's name: 'ka o ru', or 'ka wo ru'.

Getting to the point, the syllable 'wo' sounds almost exactly like 'o'. So the translation is basically say it as it sounds.

Another point, if you're interested, the syllable 'wo' is only ever used as a particle (ie. it shows a topic of the sentence), so using it in any other name or word is way out of the ordinary, and probably not done in proper, formal japanese text or language.
To me, this adds another layer of complexity and "differentness" to Kaoru's character; he does not belong.

It is also, like Hiyoku said, a very unisex name in Japan. Kaoru has a very uncertain sexuality in the series.

[ryezen]

hiya Calysta and welcome!

yeah i have to agree with u on the syllable thingy. as for the Kaworu thing... i still think that Kaworu is for boys/men while the Kaoru is for girls/women... but again, it all lies in the way it is written in kanji

[eva2000]

well hi Calysta and Neon Angel and welcome to my forum :D

[Access]

"i do not think that the angels were cooperating with each other... if you look at each of the angels, each succeeding one was more powerful than the last (oh really?), though each one had his respective strengths and weaknesses thus each one is also different. In EoE, Misato also says that "the other angels were possibilities" but the question is possibilities of what?"

Well I believe the angels are here to test mankind, each test, a challenge to determin if mankind was ready to evolve. If it wasnt, the angel would reach its goal and a bad 3rd impact irradiicating man completely. Each test got progressively harder, not just physical tests of strength, one angel was testing the strength of the mind, maybe Kaoru was testing the strengths of the human heart.


"we can debate whether an AT field is angel-power only because Kaoru defined wat n AT field was...the barrier of our minds"
Kaoru says it is the barriers of our souls and hearts, all organisms possess an AT field, however us being born of Lillith resulted in the loss of the ability for the lillum to actively use its AT field.

"But, on the other hand, Kaworu is an angel. But how was he created? And how waas he created into a human form??"
I think all angels possess gifts.... and the most surprising attack from an angel would be that of something that looks and acts human, but is different. Kaorus gift is his ability to consiously think.

[Touji]

Yeah, I think just like DeadManSeven

The last two angels before Kaworu were trying to learn about the human mind. The one that's killed by the Longinus, enters Asuka's mind and finds out she's lonely, and doesn't cry. The other one (never know the names) enters Rei's mind and asks if she's lonely, and makes her cry. They are learning about the human mind. So Kaworu comes and uses that new knowledge, conquered by the last angels.

About Rei, I support the idea that she may be the 2nd angel. Kaworu tells her he and her are the same. If he's an angel, then SHE's an angel.

[ryezen]

"Well I believe the angels are here to test mankind, each test, a challenge to determin if mankind was ready to evolve. If it wasnt, the angel would reach its goal and a bad 3rd impact irradiicating man completely. Each test got progressively harder, not just physical tests of strength, one angel was testing the strength of the mind, maybe Kaoru was testing the strengths of the human heart."

testing maybe, but again there is no evidence that the angels were cooperating with one another - they were more like working on thier own. Remember, there are good and bad angels. But i prefer to believe that humanity has already reached its peak in the evolutionary ladder. The HCP was only a tool by which Keel could finally die whereas Gendou would only be reunited with Yui - other than that, the artificial evolution was not supposed to happen - it was not meant to happen based on God's plans - that is why Misato says "man tried to pickup God and for that he was punished". Also if HCP was sucessful, eva01 would have become a god - and that is unacceptable to God - for there can only be one ( :lol: )

"But, on the other hand, Kaworu is an angel. But how was he created? And how waas he created into a human form??"

Rei and Kaworu are the same - Rei has Liliths soul whereas Kaworu has Adam's soul. Kaworu was made using the same technology used to make Rei or is it the other way around? since Rei is only made after Yui is lost in eva 01 and shinji is 3 yrs old. someone here posted something about Gendou going back to retrieve something in antarctica. This could have been what remained of Adam - including his soul.

"I think all angels possess gifts.... and the most surprising attack from an angel would be that of something that looks and acts human, but is different. Kaorus gift is his ability to consiously think."

Angels do possess gifts. let me put it this way, between the human race and God's throne, there is a multitude of pure spirits, with intuitions as vivid as lightning and as big as the stars spirits endowned as we are -and better than we- with intelligence, will and liberty, capable in consequence, of obedience and love or revolt of hatred. but what proof do i have to support this?

I hate to sound like a priest but Christ said that "those who are found worthy to attain that other world and resurrection from the dead will be as angels in heaven are, children of God now that the ressurection has given them birth" (Luke 20. 35-6)

thus we are led to believe that among the angels there is freedom. but why freedom? Because without it, there is no personality. the creation of free beings is God's triumph. He could do nothing greater nor beautiful. as Einstein said "God does not play dice".

i mentioned above that angels are capable of love, now love is the first law given to spirits, freedom is necessary for them bec. love under compulsion is a contradiction of terms.


hmmm... it seems that ive said quite a lot, not sure if they make sense though... but since im starting to organize my theory, i'll just have to wait untill a reply/critique to develop it further....

[Yuusuke]

Well, I just thought I'd post my thoughts (what little they are) on this subject.

Ok, first off, this is mainly my opinion mixed with facts. Just thought I'd state this. Anyways. . .

I believe that Rei is the soul of Lilith. There's the fact that Lilith never moves when she's on the cross, until Rei comes to her. There's the words that Rei says when she floats up to Lilith ('I'm home.' and the screen then shows 'Welcome home.')

I also believe that, before Lilith and Adam were originally one being that split into Adam (Who created the Angels) and Lilith (Who created the Lilim) and that, Third Impact wouldn't occur until the two were rejoined (shown by the fact that Gendo had Adam 'fused' into his hand when he was leading Rei to Lilith).

K, so. For Third Impact to happen, Adam and Lilith must join, and Lilith must have her soul back (her soul being Rei). I believe that the same would go for Adam, Adam would need his soul back as well (notice that Adam did nothing besides regenerating a little, as the embryo). So, I believe that Kaoru would have the soul of Adam (Which would make him and Rei alike).

Then, there'd be the scenes in EoE in which it shows Kaoru in Lilith (the scene where Rei/Lilith goes back and 'the giant' Kaoru speaks to Shinji). And the fact that Kaoru was born on Second Impact, and Second Impact occured when the Lance of Longinus was put into (or was it taken out?) of Adam.

Well, I think I've said all I wanted to say. I'm sure that some of this can be disproved. I'll just wait for that.
__________________
"But, I'm afraid. . . If this continues. . ."
Kaoru

[ryezen]

"I also believe that, before Lilith and Adam were originally one being that split into Adam (Who created the Angels) and Lilith (Who created the Lilim) and that, Third Impact wouldn't occur until the two were rejoined (shown by the fact that Gendo had Adam 'fused' into his hand when he was leading Rei to Lilith)."

TRUE! Lilith was the first wife of Adam; the two were created by God as twins joined in the back. Lilith demanded equality with Adam, and failing to get it, left him in anger. she then slept with Samael and they spawned the demons (in NGE humans). Adam on the other hand complained to God, God gave Adam a new wife - called eva and they spawned humanity (in NGE the angels)

"Then, there'd be the scenes in EoE in which it shows Kaoru in Lilith (the scene where Rei/Lilith goes back and 'the giant' Kaoru speaks to Shinji). And the fact that Kaoru was born on Second Impact, and Second Impact occured when the Lance of Longinus was put into (or was it taken out?) of Adam."

i think im getting your point, but my original question remains, how did the soul of Kaworu(Adam) get into Lilith when the only thing that Rei got from Gendou was the body of Adam - could it be that an imprit of Adam's soul was left in he's original body? or did Kaworu's soul return to Lilith after he was killed?

[Yuusuke]

Well, I'm not quite sure on that. I believe that his soul remained after he died (and the fact that he died where he did), and could have been waiting (as life and death were the same to him) in the room (probably knew of Seele's plans, as his intro episode was later given a scene of him talking to the Seele, can't remember exactly what about, though).
__________________
"He wants to fight and kill me. So, I can't avoid this."
Kenshin

[ryezen]

ok, so Kaworu knew that if he merged with lilith in his angel body, he would have caused 3rd impact but if he's soul merged with lilith he wouldnt have caused third impact

[Yuusuke]

Good point. But. . .other way around, right?

Well, for third impact, I'd have to agree with (whoever) said that there wasn't really a good and bad third impact, but that Keel only wanted third impact to die and Gendou wanted third impact to be reunited with his wife.
__________________
"How could he!? He's a low-class fighter!"
"He's a Saiya-jin regardless of his level. Be careful."

[Access]

ryezen;
"testing maybe, but again there is no evidence that the angels were cooperating with one another - they were more like working on thier own. Remember, there are good and bad angels."
yes I believe they are working independently, but are under the orders of god. And their is evidence to support that. Now good and bad, I believe angels dont have the concept of good or bad, that what sepeates Angels from the Lillum, we can consiously think about our lives, whereas Angels simple follow instructions.

"But i prefer to believe that humanity has already reached its peak in the evolutionary ladder. The HCP was only a tool by which Keel could finally die whereas Gendou would only be reunited with Yui - other than that, the artificial evolution was not supposed to happen"
The dead sea scrolls were documentation found, likely to be (in eva) documentation written by god, inscribing the events of the future, either mankind evolves or its is wiped out.

Actually Keel yes wanted to die but ONE very big problem many people, is the lack of understanding of Gendous motives. He DID NOT simply want to see Yui again, it is not that simplistic, he has inspirations for the instrumentality well before Yui died. Also Yui worked on the project, in fact Yui was the one who agreed to become the centre spirit of Unit-01. Gendou wanted insturmnetality not just to see Yui again, for if that was his sole purpose he wouldnt of worked at Gehirn in the first place. "Fugitsu:It doesnt mean you have to be the test subbject Yui:"Thats the way things go. That is why I stayed, for Seele and for Shinji"

"Also if HCP was sucessful, eva01 would have become a god - and that is unacceptable to God - for there can only be one"
No whos to say Unit-01 remains to possess all the attibutes of the kabbalah. Yui said that even if mankind died she would live on in EVA, even without the sun and stars, although it would be alone.

"I hate to sound like a priest but Christ said that "those who are found worthy to attain that other world and resurrection from the dead will be as angels in heaven are, children of God now that the ressurection has given them birth" (Luke 20. 35-6)

thus we are led to believe that among the angels there is freedom. but why freedom? Because without it, there is no personality. the creation of free beings is God's triumph. He could do nothing greater nor beautiful. as Einstein said "God does not play dice"."
EVA is a work of fiction and as such is not based on relgious scipts, it has relgious under tonens from relgions. A bible quote is not evidence in any way of anything in EVA. I think you are considering EVA to only have Christian backgrounds, however their are other relgions in EVA which are just as strong as that of Christianity.


Yuusuke:
"I believe that Rei is the soul of Lilith. There's the fact that Lilith never moves when she's on the cross, until Rei comes to her. There's the words that Rei says when she floats up to Lilith ('I'm home.' and the screen then shows 'Welcome home.')"
Well as I have said before... I think it is because Rei is composed of Lilliths cells. In eva their is a strong attitude "We must return from we we sprang forth from" Rei came from Lillith and simply was returning to her. However if Rei souls is in Lillith, how could Lillith say "Welcome Home"???? And when Rei merged with Lillith, dont forget Adam was merged with Rei at the time, I think that Lillith climbed off the cross because of the return of Adam to Lillith... not of Rei to Lillith.

"I also believe that, before Lilith and Adam were originally one being that split into Adam (Who created the Angels) and Lilith (Who created the Lilim) and that, Third Impact wouldn't occur until the two were rejoined (shown by the fact that Gendo had Adam 'fused' into his hand when he was leading Rei to Lilith)."
Well since you believe as I do here, then I shall add to that, Lillum must return to Lillith, Angels must return to Adam, Rei must return to Lillith and Adam and Lillith must return to each other. So when Lillith merged with Rei with Adam 'in' her. Lillith and Adam had reunited becomeing that orginal being again. And I see know reason to suspect ANYWHERE that Adam has no soul. I think people are making it more complecated than it really is.

"Then, there'd be the scenes in EoE in which it shows Kaoru in Lilith (the scene where Rei/Lilith goes back and 'the giant' Kaoru speaks to Shinji). And the fact that Kaoru was born on Second Impact, and Second Impact occured when the Lance of Longinus was put into (or was it taken out?) of Adam."
Kaoru wasnt REALLY born on 2nd Impact he is an ANGEL 100% angel, he was only said to be born on 2nd Impact for Seele to fool Nerv into letting him assume the role as the fifth children.

ryezen;
"TRUE! Lilith was the first wife of Adam; the two were created by God as twins joined in the back. Lilith demanded equality with Adam, and failing to get it, left him in anger. she then slept with Samael and they spawned the demons (in NGE humans). Adam on the other hand complained to God, God gave Adam a new wife - called eva and they spawned humanity (in NGE the angels)"
However do not forget their are Many many many many fables of Lillith, none are the same, some suspect Lillith as a vampire... does this relate to EVA.... nooo. In many sources I have read, Adam was created before Lillith, some suggest God created Lillith first and some supect the same time. However none are true none are false, they cannot be applied to EVA, EVA is a work of fiction and is not a relgious Anime.

[Yuusuke]

Well, I guess. . .about the Adam's soul question.
I'll just say this, why was Kaoru part of the being (Lilith and Adam combined, I'll call it Lilith) in EoE? I can't think of much reason other than the fact that he could Adam's soul. I'm sure there's many other ideas that would work, and I'm sure that, of anybody, you'll be able to think of some good ones (or already have a theory?).
__________________
"You disgrace this tournament. Prepare to die."
Kurei

[Access]

you sound like you are giving up... dont... I am just as wrong/right as you are. EVA is interpretational, thats what makes it so fun.

Now well I have never really thought much of a complication in this scene, I suspect that Kaoru didn't rally appear.... it was the either by the will of the EVA or the will of Lillith and Adam to carm down Shinji. Shinji is an important factor in how the HCP turned out. Notice at the site of him, he carmed down and even for a slpit second was purely happy..... he was beginning Insturmnetality, just as all the other characters of EVA before turning to LCL saw people who were made them happy. Maya saw Ritsuko, Fugitsu saw Yui and so forth. Shinji just saw Kaoru which made him happy, he was very important to Shinji as you well know, nobody knew Shinji better than Kaoru did, he was closer to Shinji then anyone else had been.

[Access]

Oh I didnt see the 2nd page.....

"there wasn't really a good and bad third impact, but that Keel only wanted third impact to die and Gendou wanted third impact to be reunited with his wife."

Well if their was no bad 3rd Impact then what would happen when an angel reached its goal? Nothing?

[Yuusuke]

Well, I was thinking about that (it being an image, like Maya and her sempai, etc), but I don't really think that'd work, as Kaoru spoke to Shinji (something the others didn't) and was there at the end of the failed third impact. I haven't watched EoE in quite some time (or the series, for that matter), but I remember a scene after Shinji had rejected third impact and Rei, Yui, and Kaoru were there. Kaoru and Rei told Shinji that they represented hope, I believe. Well, if that made sense, about why I believe he wouldn't 'just be an image.'
And I'd rather not give up, but I'll hafta stop for now. It's 2:03am here, and if my mom were to wake up and find me at the computer. . .well, I'd rather she not, so I'll be going to sleep soon enough.
__________________
"The reason we've gotten so far is all because of me. I was the one who wrapped up the semi's, you know."
Domon

[Access]

I ment believeing in your oppions....

"Well, I was thinking about that (it being an image, like Maya and her sempai, etc), but I don't really think that'd work, as Kaoru spoke to Shinji (something the others didn't) and was there at the end of the failed third impact."
Yeah but Shinji was the main character and was the centre being so importance was shifted on him. Gendou also saw Yui and Kaoru who both talked to them, I dont think it can be justified what happend, they both Spoke with Gendou. Shinji also spoke with Kaoru in his mind, not in reality, just the outcomes of being faced with the question "do you want mankind to evolve?" To make it easier the question was asked using familiar figures.

[neon angel]

ok, so...
rei is half human and half lillith. And lillith is an angel but like the mother of angels, so that makes lillith like really powerful right? does that explain (in episode 24 with kaworu) why the 2nd detected AT field in terminal dogma was rei's and thats why it was so strong right?

[Access]

"rei is half human and half lillith. And lillith is an angel but like the mother of angels, so that makes lillith like really powerful right?"
Well no, thats not what I said (I hope)

Adam created Angels... fact
Lillith Created Mankind or ther Lillum.... fact

I believe Adam and Lillith were once one being.... Not fact.
So I think Lillith and Adam are angels but different from all the others, more powerful... I dont know what you really mean, define powerful, you mean if it came down to a fight between to angels.... ummm ahhhhh. Adam and Lillith are just required for Instrumentality.

"does that explain (in episode 24 with kaworu) why the 2nd detected AT field in terminal dogma was rei's and thats why it was so strong right"
Well Rei is composed of Lillith cells, which makes her part angel and has the ability to use an at field. It was stated that it is the most powerful field they have ever detected, equal with that of Kaoru. Maybe... only speculation, but those two are the only angels capable of consious thought, maybe thats a link, knolwedge might lead to power and not neccesarily destruction........mmmmmmmmmmmm

[ATh]

Well Access i have a little grip.
God does not play dice, you have used out of context i believe, as well as it does not make sense.

Einstein was a firm newtonian physasit, and inthe eyes of modern theories, he did not reeally know that much.

Quantum theory is based almost soley on the uncertainty principle which was begining to spring up in the 1900's -1920's

Today, quantum theory, Chaos theory, all of these will tell you plain and simply

god plays dice

look for work by
Heisenberg
Erwin Schrodinger
Paul Dirac

for stuff from the 1920's after that newtonian physics, and eisteins ideal fall away rapidly

Einstein is like elvis, good in his day, but laughable now

ATh

[Access]

Slow down slow down..... I didnt say it..... I was going off at it....

[ATh]

Ok it just seemed out of place and i did not really see your point for it.

Neon Angel. you have brought a good point as well.

As i have said in the minor inconsistancies thread, the evidence pointing towards Rei having the soul of Lilith is growing, and there is little in its way.

I would also add that the way Lilith acted toward Shinji in EoE was very much the way Rei wanted. Now if Rei was not Lilith, but just a bunch of cells, i do not see Lilith doing as she did, Added to this is that Rei says, Ikari is calling me, and so Rei/ Lilith goes to Shinji.

If Rei was not Lilith why would she allow herself to be absorbed by Lilith? it would be too much of a gamble that Lilith would have the same call towards Shinji as Rei did.

She simple returned to her original body to complete the union with Shinji that Rei 11 and Rei111 wanted. So just like Karou, Lilith understood what it meant to be human.

ATh

[Lord Henry]

Um.. excuse me but Einstein developed special and general relativity. General relativity is still the most accurate gravitational and macro-mechanical guide.

Quantum theory is mini-micro in scale and is yet to have any gravitation theories integrated into it.

Einstein was stuck in the classical frame of thought of 'if I know the position and velocity of every partical in the Universe, I can work out where they will be in the future.' This is like pre-determinism. QM says we can't know both veloc and position. Measuring one will put out the other. Einstein said 'God does not pla dice' because of his objection to QM was that it was incomplete, and in some ways kind of spooky.

Quantum mechanics and general rel are the major modern fields after classical physics: Newtonian mechanics and Maxwell's electro-mag.

On that Rei/Lillith soul thing I still prefer thinking that Rei is part Lillith and was engineered from her. Being part Lillith explains that 'welcome home' bit without needing soul searching. OOOh good pun!;)

Just my own slant.

[ATh]

True, There is a definite difference in the macro and micro in relation to science.

Im not going into my own theories about gravity, but gravity is still the one that does not conform to the unified theory, they have 3 out of the 4.

(i do not believe gravity should be included, but.....)
So it is incomplete and it will always be so.

ATh

[David Ikari]

The selection of different particles in Quantum mechanics was determined by the strength of a probalility wave (excuse the term), and the strongest and most possible postion of an atom was selected. There fore, determining the postion and velocity of particle would bring forth the most likely possible postion the atom would occupy. We can't relate the mechanice on the macro scale to the micro scale, considering the difference in size and weight and the fact that they are atoms. (Read the book 'Nano!'). If this sounds like insane babble, ignore it.

Access, I did not mean that anything with free wil is Human, but it would be hard for NGE veiwers to unerstand the free wil of an angle if it was a chipmunk or poisonous yellow frog.

[ryezen]

well, let's continue... ( :lol: )

Access :
yes I believe they are working independently, but are under the orders of god. And their is evidence to support that. Now good and bad, I believe angels dont have the concept of good or bad, that what sepeates Angels from the Lillum, we can consiously think about our lives, whereas Angels simple follow instructions.

>>>Evidence? pls. show me! As for your belief about good and bad, where is the proof of that?

Access:
No whos to say Unit-01 remains to possess all the attibutes of the kabbalah. Yui said that even if mankind died she would live on in EVA, even without the sun and stars, although it would be alone.

>>>if instrumentality had occurred, eva 01 would have had the fruit of wisdom and the fruit of immortality which would make it equivalent to God. As for the attributes of the kabbalah, that is where “the whole is greater than the sum of its parts come in” – in other words, complementation.

>>>Yui says that line after Shinji rejects instrumentality.

Access:
EVA is a work of fiction and as such is not based on relgious scipts, it has relgious under tonens from relgions. A bible quote is not evidence in any way of anything in EVA. I think you are considering EVA to only have Christian backgrounds, however their are other relgions in EVA which are just as strong as that of Christianity.

>>> it looks like you misunderstood me, I am fully aware that Eva is a work of fiction, and as you said, has religious undertones. Undertones which Anno does not give any explanation if not little explanation. Why is this? Perhaps Anno was assuming that with the symbols he used, we will associate those with what is common knowledge. He could have done some research, and that is why we have to narrow our searches to what has been given – Christianity and Judaism. We could go back to the earliest religion – that of Sumeria (w/c I tell you is also the root of Judaism, hence X’tianity and Islam), where the angels are known as the watchers and are a race of independent beings, etc, etc.

anyway, my point is, in order to answer the questions raised in eva, we have to derive the answers from the facts contained in eva. If they are incomplete, we can opt for research, look into the meaning of this and that – who knows maybe it’l fit, after all that particular term was used, and it doesn’t mean that we are associating it with religion, we are merely taking their definitions to complement (if you will) it.


Access:
In many sources I have read, Adam was created before Lillith, some suggest God created Lillith first and some supect the same time. However none are true none are false, they cannot be applied to EVA, EVA is a work of fiction and is not a relgious Anime.

>>> OK, so based on your statement that none of the “religious descriptions” can be applied to eva, who then is the first angel and why is it the first angel? In addition to that, how should we answer the many many questions with religious undertones if we cannot borrow answers from those religions? :D

[Access]

">>>Evidence? pls. show me! As for your belief about good and bad, where is the proof of that?"

I know this is the most ---- weak excuse to hear, especially from someone who is argueing so forwardly, but I am not prepared to answer such things at this time, I dont have my notes and it was the only thing I had going for me. I dont visit the board anymore unless an email is sent to me, from the older posts. So I wont argue to well yet... (very ---- weak.. i know) .... ok but evidence.... ummm...mmmmm.... well ok.
Are the angels evil? They are working for god....... so hence that would suggest they are on the side of good, however if god descibes them to do evil, they would act upon his command. They dont care what happens to anyone, so if they were good they wouldnt want to hurt anything but instead follow gods command and hurt who ever gets in the way, so that COULD be one reason they have no concept of good or evil and just follow orders.

One of main ones were;
And Angels got the will of Life, (not necceasily immortality, all the angels did in fact die didn't they?) and man god the fruit of intelligence.

Now look at it logically, it was a sin to eat the fruit of intelligence.... right? Man as a result of this inteligence is evil, this knowledge breed anger, hatred, geolousy, lust etc. However the angels did not receive this intelligence, thus did not get these emotions, and I dont even think they have emotions. This is of course speculation... which is just based on logical ideas.

Now evidence of God controlling the angels, well from memory my arguement another time consists of several references of God in EVA... eg "God in his Heaven all right with the World". JUst references such as this, their are numerous references of God in EVA, and if God is present... then what are the Angels doing? Well dont forget that Angel is not the correct translation from Japanese. It actually is Shinto(?) which means Apposel or a messager of God. So they are following Gods instructions of course this is again speculation. Just my oppions. So that is really the evidence I have first hand. We will know doubt come back to this topic again.

">>>if instrumentality had occurred, eva 01 would have had the fruit of wisdom and the fruit of immortality which would make it equivalent to God. As for the attributes of the kabbalah, that is where “the whole is greater than the sum of its parts come in” – in other words, complementation.
>>>Yui says that line after Shinji rejects instrumentality."

Well.... Yui says that line twice in EVA.... not sure where, dont have access to the vids, locked away from my prying hands and eyes. Well I see it as, Unit-01 got the 'attibutes' of all the Kabbalah for a moment, I dont know many but Keter, Hod... etc. Which translate into, Strength, Glory, Victory, Splender, MErcy, Wisdom, Highest Crown, understanding etc. Which made Unit-01 a perfect being, then the seed of the angels and the seed of man were in one body allowing Unit-01 to transform into the Tree of Life, which is equal with god. Then this allowed Shinji to have the power to decide if mankind should evolve, he had this power over everybody. Then after he rejected it, Rei split open fell to earth.... blah blah blah. UNit-01 flys off into space or what ever... no idea really. This is just my intepretation of it here... just what I thought of it when I saw it. I really dont understand what you are trying to disagree with here.. sorry.

"anyway, my point is, in order to answer the questions raised in eva, we have to derive the answers from the facts contained in eva. If they are incomplete, we can opt for research, look into the meaning of this and that – who knows maybe it’l fit, after all that particular term was used, and it doesn’t mean that we are associating it with religion, we are merely taking their definitions to complement (if you will) it. "

Fair enought but I dounbt not that in EVA their are many contradtictions to references in the bible and in other relgious sorces. Dont forget the Kabbalah and in my oppion is the most important part of EVA. Not Anno I think didnt make EVA a relgious anime he just added references in it to give it the toping. It is the interatcions between the characters and thge philkosiphy bwteen their interatcions and reactions which makes it so interesting. ...mmm... I am way of track. Dont forget the presence of metpahors which tripped me up, the mention of Angels receiving the fruit of life and man recieving fruit of Intelgience or knowledge I actually interpreted literal, but the more I think about it from ATh mentioning it, that it is a metaphor to describe the difference between angel and man. Of course lets get back to a discussion of EVA, not our methods of interpreting EVA.

">>> OK, so based on your statement that none of the “religious descriptions” can be applied to eva, who then is the first angel and why is it the first angel? In addition to that, how should we answer the many many questions with religious undertones if we cannot borrow answers from those."
As I said I believe Lillith is the 1st angel based, because I believe that the angels are numbered in the order in which they challenged mankind and lillith was found first and captured first, I orginally had 4 reasons why I thought she was first, can only remember that one sorry....

Now yes we cant use relgious descibptions as fact, and no it cant be applied completely to EVA, and yes how should we answer the many many relgious questions in EVA. Very diffuctly, people have been discussing EVA for 8 years and nobody knows eveything, I think no one will ever no the answer, because it is a work of fiction. And yes we cant use relgious soruces as fact, only as evidence supporting your case, but you presenting 100 sources which say that Lillith was created before Adam, does not give anymore evidence to your case, then me saying that Adam was made before Lillith.

But reguardless I could find just as many references of Lillith supporting either side. And no none can be used, Anno could of use this in EVA, completely changed the idea... thats what makes it so hard, however thats why it is so interesting. So evidence can only be properly used that is extracted from the series or movies or anything spoken by Anno. Dont forget their is a possibiliy that in EVA, maybe Anno didnt create answers to everything so their are inconsistencys, also the concept of human error. So no, relgious sources is not any more reliable then what your or I oppion is.

[Edited by Access on 25-07-2000 at 01:04 AM]

[ryezen]

“And ANgels got the will of Life, (not necceasily immortality, all the angels did in fact die didn't they?) and man god the fruit of intelligence. “

>>>all the angels? What about Kaworu? Didn’t he say that life and death were equivalent to him? Also the 18th angel or humanity has an immortal soul – just because the angels lost their physical forms doesn’t mean that they do not have any souls as well, if you also take into account the fact that both Rei and Kaworu possess the souls of Lilith and Adam respectively, in addition to that, if Lilith was able to spawn the Lilin who possessed souls, why shouldn’t Adam be capable of spawning Angels with souls as well? So based on this, we can actually question as to what exactly does the fruit of life give.

“Well I see it as, Unit-01 got the 'attibutes' of all the Kabbalah for a moment, I dont know many but Keter, Hod... etc. Which translate into, Strength, Glory, Victory, Splender, MErcy, Wisdom, Highest Crown, understanding etc. Which made Unit-01 a perfect being, then the seed of the angels and the seed of man were in one body allowing Unit-01 to transform into the Tree of Life, which is equal with god. Then this allowed Shinji to have the power to decide if mankind should evolve, he had this power over everybody. Then after he rejected it, Rei split open fell to earth.... blah blah blah. UNit-01 flys off into space or what ever... no idea really. This is just my intepretation of it here... just what I thought of it when I saw it. I really dont understand what you are trying to disagree with here.. sorry. “

>>> I think you said “who says that eva 01 possessed all the attributes of the kabbalah” so this was my reply:

if instrumentality had occurred, eva 01 would have had the fruit of wisdom and the fruit of immortality which would make it equivalent to God. As for the attributes of the kabbalah, that is where “the whole is greater than the sum of its parts come in” – in other words, complementation.

>>>Though you seem to have elaborated on it as well… anyway bec Shinji was equivalent to god, he was able to decide the fate of humanity right? So can we then say that when Shinji “willed” everyone to live again this really happened (though it was not shown in the end of EoE) ?

“Now yes we cant use relgious descibptions as fact, and no it cant be applied completely to EVA, and yes how should we answer the many many relgious questions in EVA. Very diffuctly, people have been discussing EVA for 8 years and nobody knows eveything, I think no one will ever no the answer, because it is a work of fiction. And yes we cant use relgious soruces as fact, only as evidence supporting your case, but you presenting 100 sources which say that Lillith was created before Adam, does not give anymore evidence to your case, then me saying that Adam was made before Lillith. “

>>>point taken…

[Access]

">>>all the angels? What about Kaworu? Didn’t he say that life and death were equivalent to him?"

Where?

"Kaoru:
I've been destined to live forever, even if humanity is annihilated as a result. However, I am able to die. To be or not to be. It makes no difference to me. My death is the only absolute liberty." - Extracted from the Script

By looking at this the Angels can die. When Shinji saw Kaoru in EoE it was like all the other characters saw something to sooth them to allow 3rd Impact to take place.


"Also the 18th angel or humanity has an immortal soul – just because the angels lost their physical forms doesn’t mean that they do not have any souls as well"
Why does Humanity gave an immortal soul??
I NEVER said the angels dont have souls! They have AT fields so they have to have souls, besides I believe all living beings have souls.


"if you also take into account the fact that both Rei and Kaworu possess the souls of Lilith and Adam respectively, in addition to that, if Lilith was able to spawn the Lilin who possessed souls, why shouldn’t Adam be capable of spawning Angels with souls as well?"
Ok well I DONT believe Kaoru soul is Adams.... in the dead seas scrolls it spoke of 18 angels to attack mankind, I am pretty sure that is said... maybe not though. As I said I never doubted Angels having souls, of course Adam spawed beings with souls. Tabris was just a unique being testing mankind, for strength of the heart. Just as the other angels possed other tests to mankind. If mankind was able to pass all the tests God would reward him and man could potentially evolve.


"So based on this, we can actually question as to what exactly does the fruit of life give."
Well I dont believe in EVA their really is a fruit of life or fruit of intelligence. I believe they are metaphors just descibing the difference betweem Angels and man. I dont think actually fruit WERE eaten, considering when would it take place? I see it as distinquishing between the man and angel. Well my general stance on the differnce between Adams spawns and Lilliths is that "generally" angels have no free will, they dont make their own descions, they have no concept of emotions or feeling, it is sufficient for them to be alive to be fulfilled, however the Lillum having the gift of the 'Fruit of Knowledge' seek further insite into their lives. Our ability to have consious resulted in the loss of our ability to activly use AT-fields.

The thing that seperates lillum from angel is independent intelligence (except Kaoru). So this 'lack' in the lillum is I believe is the awareness of the emptyness in their minds, whereas Angels dont have a place in their mind for emptyness.... it only follows orders to the best of the ability using the gifts it has been given. Kaoru was different, all the angels challenged mankind under gods orders to see if it was ready to evolve. The angel used the abilitys it has been given to test the lillum. Kaoru's was a unique gift of intelligence, he consiously could make decsions. Man passed the 17th Angels test... KAoru just saw the goodness in man, and realised that they were the race of people who shouldnt die, he had the free will to choose to let man live. This is because he is the angel of free will. If Kaoru wanted to, he could of thrashed Unit-01 and reached Adam, however he didnt, this was not a test of strength, it was a higher test than that.

">> I think you said “who says that eva 01 possessed all the attributes of the kabbalah” so this was my reply:
if instrumentality had occurred, eva 01 would have had the fruit of wisdom and the fruit of immortality which would make it equivalent to God. As for the attributes of the kabbalah, that is where “the whole is greater than the sum of its parts come in” – in other words, complementation."
Yes BUT AFTER 3rd Impact had taken place whos to say it still possessed all the Attibutes of the system siphofrica.

">>>Though you seem to have elaborated on it as well… anyway bec Shinji was equivalent to god, he was able to decide the fate of humanity right? So can we then say that when Shinji “willed” everyone to live again this really happened (though it was not shown in the end of EoE) ?"
Shinji willed the rejection of 3rd Impact.... I believe it didnt take place.... the centre being is important and Shinji rejected it... so I see it as Man either died or will return. However Shinji has the ability to will the end of instrumentality, but it is not up to him whether mankind will return to their form. Shinji returned to his own form when he was LCL from the call of Misato, he was strong enought to return. The questions is, is mankind spirtually strong enought to place their own AT field around them again and return to a physical form. This is the million dollar question... and is very interpretational... I also believe the questions is left open without an answer.

[ryezen]

"Kaoru:
I've been destined to live forever, even if humanity is annihilated as a result. However, I am able to die. To be or not to be. It makes no difference to me. My death is the only absolute liberty." - Extracted from the Script

By looking at this the Angels can die. When Shinji saw Kaoru in EoE it was like all the other characters saw something to sooth them to allow 3rd Impact to take place.

>>>but don’t you think that he was referring to his physical aspect? Remember Rei who possessed Lilith’s soul has already died twice yet somehow they were able to recover her soul…


“Ok well I DONT believe Kaoru soul is Adams.... “

>>>have you {een the “Directors cut?

Episode 24 - Kaworu's meeting with SEELE

SEELE 01: But 'our' hopes are materializing...

SEELE: In Lilith, progenitor of humanity - the false successors from the Black Moon...

SEELE: And in Adam, progenitor of Angels - the true successors from the lost White Moon.

SEELE: And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...

SEELE 01: But whose revived body is already inside Ikari.

Kaworu (closed eyes): Shinji's father... Is he like me?

SEELE 01: That is why we now entrust our hope to you.
(Monoliths vanish)

>>>from here we can clearly see that Seele was admitting the fact that Kaworu had Adam’s soul.

"So based on this, we can actually question as to what exactly does the fruit of life give."
Well I dont believe in EVA their really is a fruit of life or fruit of intelligence. I believe they are metaphors just descibing the difference betweem Angels and man. I dont think actually fruit WERE eaten, considering when would it take place? I see it as distinquishing between the man and angel. Well my general stance on the differnce between Adams spawns and Lilliths is that "generally" angels have no free will, they dont make their own descions, they have no concept of emotions or feeling, it is sufficient for them to be alive to be fulfilled, however the Lillum having the gift of the 'Fruit of Knowledge' seek further insite into their lives. Our ability to have consious resulted in the loss of our ability to activly use AT-fields.

>>>metaphor? Then what about the concept of God in eva? and where does he come in – why does
Shinji say: “Angels, messengers of the God. Our enemies with Angel names. Why are we fighting against them?” – since God is mentioned, there is a possibility that a religion exists (so for the sake of argument, we’ll assume that it is similar to what exists now). So it seems Access that we really need to use and apply the definitions of religion… but going back to your agrument, You said “ “generally” angels have no free will, they don’t make decisions – why do you say generally, when infact the angels come from one source – and tht is Adam. Why should Adam spawn angels with and without free will? As for your last statement, don’t you think that humans as a species, is the 18th angel and not individual humans – I’ll say it again, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, so if we lilin were to merge into a single being, we would also have the strengths (and maybe weaknesses) of the other angels.

“The thing that seperates lillum from angel is independent intelligence (except Kaoru). So this 'lack' in the lillum is I believe is the awareness of the emptyness in their minds, whereas Angels dont have a place in their mind for emptyness.... it only follows orders to the best of the ability using the gifts it has been given. Kaoru was different, all the angels challenged mankind under gods orders to see if it was ready to evolve. The angel used the abilitys it has been given to test the lillum. Kaoru's was a unique gift of intelligence, he consiously could make decsions. Man passed the 17th Angels test... KAoru just saw the goodness in man, and realised that they were the race of people who shouldnt die, he had the free will to choose to let man live. This is because he is the angel of free will. If Kaoru wanted to, he could of thrashed Unit-01 and reached Adam, however he didnt, this was not a test of strength, it was a higher test than that. “

>>>the reason why there is an emptiness in the lillium is bec. they are separated from each other. But if there were merged as one – such as during complementation, then there wouldn’t be any emptiness. You also mention “independent intelligence” -isnt it shown in the different battles that the angels show signs of intelligence ? iroel shows that it can beat the magi, Sahaquiel, according to Misato showed signs that it was learning since the accuracy of its bombs were getting closer to NERV (just to name a few). Anyway, since Kaworu had Adam’s soul, and he was one of the main components of Seele’s plan, he was named Tabris or the angel of free will (by Seele), not because he had free will per se (since alll angels have it) but because he was given the authority to decide whether man should survive third impact!

[Shadow War]

Where can you get the dir cut of ep 24?

[ryezen]

they were discussing it somewhere...

try this http://www.animeboards.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=896

[Shadow War]

Thanks. That gives me one more question, Will the extra stuff be on DVD?

[Keroppilee]

when eva-01 "ate" gendo in eoe, is that just his "dream" image before he melts to lcl? wow this is such a deep and long discussion about kawrou's role in impact...

[ryezen]

Shadow War
"Thanks. That gives me one more question, Will the extra stuff be on DVD?"

>>>no prob. as for it being on DVD, well, lets hope so! :D(since im planning to get those soon)

Keroppilee
"when eva-01 "ate" gendo in eoe, is that just his "dream" image before he melts to lcl? wow this is such a deep and long discussion about kawrou's role in impact..."

>>>i think so, since unit 01 was up there with lilith while Gendou was down there in terminal dogma

hehe... well, there are some of us who "love" discussing Eva at these lengths :lol:

[Access]

">>>but don’t you think that he was referring to his physical aspect? Remember Rei who possessed Lilith’s soul has already died twice yet somehow they were able to recover her soul."
Yes so? Their soul cant be destroyed and....

The Directors cut script can be gotten here;
http://www.evaotaku.cjb.net/


">>>from here we can clearly see that Seele was admitting the fact that Kaworu had Adam’s soul."
Maybe so, Maybe so..... I now need time. I have read these documents before, and did not interpret it that way.....

">>>metaphor? Then what about the concept of God in eva? and where does he come in – why does
Shinji say: “Angels, messengers of the God. Our enemies with Angel names. Why are we fighting against them?”"

What is the relevance, just because the apperarence of god is in EVA, doesnt mean that an actually fruit of life and fruit of intelligence actually existed. I believe when Fugitsu said the line about the fruit of life in EoE, he was being metaphorical. Many things that are said in EVA are metaphorical and should not be literally interpreted.


"You said “ “generally” angels have no free will, they don’t make decisions – why do you say generally, when infact the angels come from one source – and tht is Adam. Why should Adam spawn angels with and without free will?"
That is like saying why did Lillith spawn black, Asian and white people. Each of the Angels have real names based on actual angels and other Jewish sources. And about 90% of all the angels possess a name which is relevant to them, Angel of Music, Angel of Rain. And Tabris is just the ANgel of Free will. Why or how he spawns his not I believe even an issue. However in spite of this new evidence my oppions might change...


"As for your last statement, don’t you think that humans as a species, is the 18th angel and not individual humans – I’ll say it again, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, so if we lilin were to merge into a single being, we would also have the strengths (and maybe weaknesses) of the other angels. "
Their is NO evidence of that, but even if they could... so what?

">>the reason why there is an emptiness in the lillium is bec. they are separated from each other. But if there were merged as one – such as during complementation, then there wouldn’t be any emptiness."
YES man is lonely, isolated, that is why they feel more comfortable merged, however angels dont have this problem and they are seperate, why? Because they are not aware of this loneliness. They dont have a concept of that emotion.

"You also mention “independent intelligence” -isnt it shown in the different battles that the angels show signs of intelligence ? iroel shows that it can beat the magi, Sahaquiel, according to Misato showed signs that it was learning since the accuracy of its bombs were getting closer to NERV (just to name a few)."
Not that form of intelligence, a dog can learn to role over but is it intelligenct? I am refering to the intelligence that seperates man from the animals. The free will of man, the independentness, which is something none of the angels have because, they simple follows god orders, except TAbris who is the Anel of freewill. Even if Tabris possessed Adams soul it would not make Tabris have free will, Tabris has free will, simply because he is the angel of free will, whether this is done by god, or whether even thought was put in by Anno, Tabris still had freewill, while none of the other angels did.


"Anyway, since Kaworu had Adam’s soul, and he was one of the main components of Seele’s plan, he was named Tabris or the angel of free will (by Seele), not because he had free will per se (since alll angels have it) but because he was given the authority to decide whether man should survive third impact!"
I dont believe that, but another idea is forming......


Congrads you have brought up some rather intrieguing points that have made be seriously rethink some ideas, I am not saying your right... I am not saying I am right, I am starting to think that both of us are wrong.... mmmmmmm, some of the ideas you put across are incosistent, just as some of the ones I put across are.... give me time. Well done.

[ryezen]

well, that's why were here in the first place... as for me, ive gotta run since i've got a comprehensive exam at 4... maybe i'll post my response tomorrow - this argueing sure is giving me a warm up :lol:

[ryezen]

it seems that i've forgot some of the things i was gonna ask and say but...

“Not that form of intelligence, a dog can learn to role over but is it intelligenct? I am refering to the intelligence that seperates man from the animals. The free will of man, the independentness, which is something none of the angels have because, they simple follows god orders, except TAbris who is the Anel of freewill. Even if Tabris possessed Adams soul it would not make Tabris have free will, Tabris has free will, simply because he is the angel of free will, whether this is done by god, or whether even thought was put in by Anno, Tabris still had freewill, while none of the other angels did.”

>>>well, you keep mentioning that there are many concepts in eva w/c should be taken metaphorically – and I think that kaworu’s name and the name of the angels are metaphorical. As I said, Kaworu was named Tabris or the angel of free will (by Seele), not because he had free will per se (since all angels have it) but because he was given the authority to decide whether man should survive third impact.

But since you don’t believe that, lets see your answer…

“Congrads you have brought up some rather intrieguing points that have made be seriously rethink some ideas, I am not saying your right... I am not saying I am right, I am starting to think that both of us are wrong.... mmmmmmm, some of the ideas you put across are incosistent, just as some of the ones I put across are.... give me time. Well done.”

>>>so w/c exactly are they, so that I may revise them as well, as for the inconsistency, well, I don’t like to elaborate like you do, plus im still in the process of formulating my own theory, etc.

the same goes for you with the congrats! Esp w/ the patience arguing with me (or are you already banging your head on the table :D )