Did Griffith die?

[Rulakir]

What do you think? He agreed to recieve his own kingdom in exchange for his flesh and blood; so at the end, he's transformed to a new being with a new name, Femeto. I'm just wondering if Griffith did die during or after his transformation; if he himself became a sacrifice? Or is Griffith alive with a new body, new name and a new set of beliefs?

[John Faulkner]

Probably most of the human soul of Griffith died when he transformed into a demon. He still retains some of his feelings though, like his hatred towards Gatts. I don't think his beliefs have changed that much on transformation-he still yearns for power even in his new state. Certainly, he had to sacrifice his body in order to receive his kingdom, and in the process most of his ability to charm (Griffith could write a book titled 'How to make friends and influence people' in his human state, but probably not in his transformed state).However it is debatable whether Griffith lost his human side due to the transformation or due to his severe punishment in the dungeons.Considering what he went through at the end of the series,it's no wonder he went a bit mad, and lost a bit his 'old self'.

[Nairohe]

at least on the manga he didnt... there's not enough information where the series left of to tell if Griffith's sould did die or not. In my opinion, he may still be alive. Just look at the way he looked at Gatts while he raped Caska infront of him. He was feeding off Gatts' pain. He also had that vengeaful look making Gatts suffer for 'stealing' Caska away from him.

I think Griffith DID love Caska in a way but he had to shove this aside in order to attain his goal. He showed some signs of jealousy when he saw Caska by Gatts side when they rescued him.

[Psycho vantis]

said Nairohe
. He showed some signs of jealousy when he saw Caska by Gatts side when they rescued him.

really?,,..... personaly i thought he looked more like a next door neighbor he hated just borowed one of his favorite tools,....


Do i think Griffith died,... when he gave his soul up to become femeto?....
I like to think that griffith was always femeto,.... and he never was this other image that gats and the others thought he was,....
so no i think he was just unleashed from his shell....

[Maccy99]

Originally posted by -Psycho (v)antis


really?,,..... personaly i thought he looked more like a next door neighbor he hated just borowed one of his favorite tools,....


Do i think Griffith died,... when he gave his soul up to become femeto?....
I like to think that griffith was always femeto,.... and he never was this other image that gats and the others thought he was,....
so no i think he was just unleashed from his shell....

I'd definitely have to agree with you. Griffith never cared about anyone, the only reason he was "jealous" when he saw Gatts with Caska was because he felt Gatts was taking away one more thing that was his. He hated Gatts for taking his idea of his "supreme power" and then Gatts was taking yet another one of his possessions.

Griffith was always evil, he was just getting an outer form that fit his inner darkness.

[Nairohe]

i could be biased with my answer since i was following the manga. In the Manga, Griffith chose to become 'griffith' again so Femto no longer exists because he stuck to his dream on becoming a king. To become a king, he had to be human, so he was reborn as Griffith using Caska's unborn child.

In the anime, i can see it both ways. Women were considered 'belongings' at the time and age this was set. Griffith saw his men as 'tools' to rise up in power and become king. Griffith admited all this when he spoke to the princess that knight when Caska and Gatts overheard him. Gatts never meant to be Griffith's enemy, he wanted to be his equal.

If you do take the romantic approach and look at it another way, Griffith and Caska had been together for a long time and she almost become his equal. She had always been there and he had sometimes shared his dreams with her (ie. that scene where he had just had sex with the wicked er... rich guy.) and exposed his dreams to her. He may not have noticed it, he may subconciously have fallen for her but ignored all this and concentrated on his WILL to gain power.

hey, posession is sometimes mistaken for lust... or the other way around... maybe...

[Takara]

I might be putting too much weight on this, but I think it may reveal the at least the TV series' intentions... At the end of the second episode, ithink, the preview says, "I want you for her."
Griffith needed the princess if he was to become king, so Caska was out of the question if he was to succeed. Until his fall, Griffith tries to set up Caska with Gutts.

At first I thought that Griffith becoming Femto was the ultimate transformation into a King. Considering later, I wasn't sure if that was what he really wanted or not.

One of the things that bothered me was that the killing started before Griffith actually said he would sacrifice the Hawks. If he had said no (could he possible have) to the Godhands, what would they have done? I figured they would've found Griffith unworthy and killed them all anyway.

[jetalone]

Maccy99:

I'd definitely have to agree with you. Griffith never cared about anyone, the only reason he was "jealous" when he saw Gatts with Caska was because he felt Gatts was taking away one more thing that was his. He hated Gatts for taking his idea of his "supreme power" and then Gatts was taking yet another one of his possessions.



:nod:

Griffith held a tremendous amount of power as the leader of the Band of the Hawk, but when he raped (?) the princess, he had everything taken from him. Even when he was rescued, he was powerless. Seeing Caska in Gatts' arms just exacerbated his feeling of lack of power, and how his goals were further slipping away.

Maccy99:

Griffith was always evil, he was just getting an outer form that fit his inner darkness.

I'm not sure........ I just think he was too blind in his desire to care about the immorality of his actions. Say if he hadn't raped (again, ?) the princess, and became king through the normal procedures, would his "evil" have manifested itself?



(I say ? because I can't actually remember if the princess really objected to Griffith's actions... did she?)

[Takara]

Say if he hadn't raped (again, ?) the princess, and became king through the normal procedures, would his "evil" have manifested itself?

The only way to power was through the Princess, since the other nobles didn't want a commoner in the court, 'normal procedures' were out of the question. Had he not jumped and gone about it so quickly, he may have succeeded.


(I say ? because I can't actually remember if the princess really objected to Griffith's actions... did she?)

Princess Charlotte only feebly objected. It wasn’t rape it was seduction, really. Later she’s the one trying to help the Hawks free him, proof she was quite charmed by him.

[jetalone]

Yeah, now I remember. Thanks. :heh:

I really need to get the manga somehow......

[gaspacho soup]

I've carefully avoided reading any post with the word 'manga' in them out of fear of spoilers...so bear with me if i start repeating what others say...

During the transformation phase, i believe you could see little wings sprouting from Griffith's back...so physically speaking, his body didn't die. It just changed.

After the transformation, while he was raping Caska, he was staring at Gats the whole time (i think..i've only seen the series once). So obviously he wasn't doing it just for the sake of pleasure...rather he was trying to upset Gats, which he did. It shows that he retained his feelings of anger and hatred towards Gats, and it also showed that he still had the same memories as before the transformation. His mentallity was also preserved.

Physically and mentally speaking he didn't die, so the short answer to your question is NO.

[Kamui Magami]

in a sense, Griffith did indeed die. but not in a way some may think. when he became "the wings of Darkness" a.k.a Femto, a part of him did cease to exist. but also remember that he was reborn in the Child of Caska and Gattsu. in his reincarnated form he was known as "the Hawk of Light" and he is still determined to achieve his dream.

[Shiro]

SPOILERS??




im not so sure if Griffith hates Guts, just look at the manga for instence when he was fighting Wild and was getting worked, Griffith wanted to help him out, also when he fell during the eclipse he reached out and tried to save Guts, and i remember those parts where i was teary eyed =(. When they went to rescue Griffith from the tower of rebirth and Griffith woke up and and saw Guts and tried to choke him, but then Guts hugged him and started to cry, Griffith put his hand on guts hand, and the Last statement he made about Guts before he sacrificed everyone "Only you..Only you, Among thousands of comrades and 10 thousand enemies..Only You (happy pictures of them laughing after a battle hands on shoulders) made me forget my dream" sad sad

[Kamui Magami]

poop. if only i could find that link that Eva2000 posted a while aog :(

[Tarot]

SPOILERS??

im not so sure if Griffith hates Guts, just look at the manga for instence when he was fighting Wild and was getting worked, Griffith wanted to help him out, also when he fell during the eclipse he reached out and tried to save Guts, and i remember those parts where i was teary eyed =(. When they went to rescue Griffith from the tower of rebirth and Griffith woke up and and saw Guts and tried to choke him, but then Guts hugged him and started to cry, Griffith put his hand on guts hand, and the Last statement he made about Guts before he sacrificed everyone "Only you..Only you, Among thousands of comrades and 10 thousand enemies..Only You (happy pictures of them laughing after a battle hands on shoulders) made me forget my dream" sad sad

Yeah, I remember that part from the manga also. My question was though, did he say that out of spite for Guts or out of friendship?

It's pretty obvious from the start of the manga/anime (for those who've seen either, I guess it would work) that nothing matters more to Griffith than his dream of having his own country (that's why he comes back, sacrifices all of his soldiers/friends, decides to become a demon, etc). Then here comes Guts and Griffith gains a friend that distracts him from his dream (aka the thing he wants the most). After being horribly tortured and offered the chance to become a demon king, Griffith supposedly "sees the light" or something to that effect, realizes that Guts distracted him from his dream and sacrifices everyone close to him to gain more power.

In a strange way, I think Griffith could have said the "you're the only one" line in order to show affection for Guts, but when I first encountered that part in both the anime and the manga, it seemed like Griffith's attitude was more along the lines of, "You were the only one that distracted me from my dream. How could I have been so blind/stupid/foolish as to let that happen?" After all, if he really cared that much about Guts/any of his other soldiers, why would he have sacrificed all of them in the first place? That's basically the only thing that makes me think Griffith might've been saying that out of spite.

[SolBadguy]

Yeah, I remember that part from the manga also. My question was though, did he say that out of spite for Guts or out of friendship?

It's pretty obvious from the start of the manga/anime (for those who've seen either, I guess it would work) that nothing matters more to Griffith than his dream of having his own country (that's why he comes back, sacrifices all of his soldiers/friends, decides to become a demon, etc). Then here comes Guts and Griffith gains a friend that distracts him from his dream (aka the thing he wants the most). After being horribly tortured and offered the chance to become a demon king, Griffith supposedly "sees the light" or something to that effect, realizes that Guts distracted him from his dream and sacrifices everyone close to him to gain more power.

In a strange way, I think Griffith could have said the "you're the only one" line in order to show affection for Guts, but when I first encountered that part in both the anime and the manga, it seemed like Griffith's attitude was more along the lines of, "You were the only one that distracted me from my dream. How could I have been so blind/stupid/foolish as to let that happen?" After all, if he really cared that much about Guts/any of his other soldiers, why would he have sacrificed all of them in the first place? That's basically the only thing that makes me think Griffith might've been saying that out of spite.

You can only sacrifice those dearest to you, the best example and explanation in the manga is vol. 3 during the fight between Guts and the Count.

[Scarred Sword]

I don't think Griffith hated Guts, but he realized that Guts distracted him from his dream and thusly tried to sacrifice him with the other Hawks.

[MeMyself]

Didn't anyone watch episode 1? :confused: The series starts off showing Guts killing the demon Griffith. The rest of the series shows what lead up to that moment. Although the final episode ends not showing how Guts escaped, but we know he did. We see him sometime later in the epilog after the closing credits. (Though I do not remember if Guts had only one arm in episode 1.)

Demon Griffith certainly contained much, if not all, of human Griffith. We don't see it, but I am pretty sure Caska is killed following her rape.

[John Faulkner]

Didn't anyone watch episode 1? :confused: The series starts off showing Guts killing the demon Griffith.
The snake monster was just a lower order demon, not Griffith.

[MeMyself]

The snake monster was just a lower order demon, not Griffith.

It looked a bit like Griffith, although in demon form. It wore the Head of the King. It wore Griffith's helmet as I recall. Guts called him Griffith. It was Griffith.

[John Faulkner]

It looked a bit like Griffith, although in demon form. It wore the Head of the King. It wore Griffith's helmet as I recall. Guts called him Griffith. It was Griffith.
I don't recall Snake-Man wearing Griffith's helmet nor Guts calling him Griffith. Here's an episode summary for a second opinion: http://berserk.aucifer.com/episode_view.php?ID=1

If you still don't believe me, then watch it again. Griffith appeared to Guts in a vision during episode 1, but that was it.

[MeMyself]

I don't recall Snake-Man wearing Griffith's helmet nor Guts calling him Griffith. Here's an episode summary for a second opinion: http://berserk.aucifer.com/episode_view.php?ID=1

If you still don't believe me, then watch it again. Griffith appeared to Guts in a vision during episode 1, but that was it.

I think I remember the demon wearing a helmet like Griffith's in a few shots. I may be wrong about that. But you are wrong about everything else. When Guts sees the demon, he says, "Griffith." What you see next is not a vision, but a memory flashback. The demon is not called Griffith by anyone else. Guts obviously recognizes him for what he is.

If I am wrong, then the entire episode makes no sense. There is no purpose for it and it does not fit the rest of the series.

Besides, in episode 25 the demons promise Griffith a kingdom in return for the lives of his friends. In episode 1, we see that kingdom.

[John Faulkner]

I think I remember the demon wearing a helmet like Griffith's in a few shots. I may be wrong about that. But you are wrong about everything else. When Guts sees the demon, he says, "Griffith." What you see next is not a vision, but a memory flashback. The demon is not called Griffith by anyone else. Guts obviously recognizes him for what he is.

If I am wrong, then the entire episode makes no sense. There is no purpose for it and it does not fit the rest of the series.

Besides, in episode 25 the demons promise Griffith a kingdom in return for the lives of his friends. In episode 1, we see that kingdom.
You're talking nonsense - did you even watch episode 1 again as I suggested? Here're links to the episode uploaded on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUPL765l_go&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOlDRmjWx7Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt5DOiwsEog&feature=related

Nowhere does Guts call the Snake Demon Griffith and the Snake Demon doesn't even recognise Guts (instead calling him the Black Swordsman, the name given to the Snake Demon by his messengers). Guts saw Griffith (who looks nothing like the Snake Demon - he has that helmet on for one thing and no sharp teeth, and was never shown to be able to turn into a snake and was able to fly) in darkness along with flashing semi-transparent images of demons from the last episode. I called that a vision because it wasn't a direct recalling of past events, and Guts had his eyes opened as if looking at these images in front of him in his outer environment. It certainly wasn't a memory flashback in the sense of being a flashback to past events; just isolated figures from his past cast against darkness. And Guts called this vision of Griffith "Griffith", not the Snake Demon.

And why wouldn't the episode make sense? It shows Guts survived, but is now a marked man (branded). He has a burning hate for demons and pulverizing the Snake Monster is probably just a step towards revenge against Griffith and his demon friends. As for Griffith getting a kingdom, I'd hardly call one town/city a kingdom. And since Snake-Man isn't even Griffith, even if that place in episode 1 was a kingdom, it wasn't shown to belong to Griffith.

[MeMyself]

Watch the episode again. Guts refers to the demon as Griffith. Maybe I worded it wrong. He doesn't call the demon Griffith to his face, but mutters it under his breath. We then see Griffith as he was when he was human.

I discussed this with others in another forum. Everyone there saw the demon as Griffith. Only you don't see the connection.

[John Faulkner]

Watch the episode again. Guts refers to the demon as Griffith. Maybe I worded it wrong. He doesn't call the demon Griffith to his face, but mutters it under his breath. We then see Griffith as he was when he was human.
Guts saw an outline of Griffith in his "Batman" costume (the same as that seen in the last episode: 2:55 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOlDRmjWx7Y&feature=related) and then says "Griffith". After Guts says "Griffith", the same outline reveals its face, and this confirms the outline is of Griffith. The face of Griffith here looks like Griffith in the last episode - look at the "lipstick" and the red costume. The last episode already shows Griffith in his demon form "Femto", so this means the face of Griffith (with the "lipstick" and red costume) seen by Guts is the image of "Femto" and not Griffith's human form. Also note that when Guts sees Griffith's face in episode 1, Griffith's face was cast against darkness with the same colour costume as seen in the bodily outline, which means that sequence is part of the outline he saw just earlier (which was also cast against darkness). There is nothing to suggest this is a separate "memory flashback", seeing as how Guts had his eye wide open all the time and was looking at the area in front of him in both the preceding and proceeding scenes AND there is no corresponding scene in the last episode with Griffith's face like that cast against a black background. The logical interpretation is that Griffith's face is part of the same sequence as the bodily outline, part of the same vision. Note that this takes place before the Snake-Demon and Guts meet. This scene had nothing to do with the Snake-Demon, because it wasn't even shown in this scene.

So Guts does not refer to the Snake demon as Griffith. Looking back on it, you probably confused the outline seen by Guts with Snake-Demon's armour. Although Snake-Demon's armour is yellow, it was shown as red against the fire, which is the same colour as Femto's outfit. But the outline seen by Guts is that of a more skin-tight outfit which looks different from the flatter armour plating seen on Snake-Demon's armour (and matches Femto's outfit as seen in the last episode). Also, it was dark red and not yellow.

Furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest that Femto can change forms. So there's no evidence that Femto changed into Snake-Demon with the capability to turn into a giant snake monster. As for the Snake-Demon having a Behelit, notice that Griffith in his demonic Femto form didn't even have the Behelit anymore, so the fact that Snake-Demon had a Behelit is no indication whatsoever he was Griffith.

So if you look at all the evidence, your theory is not going to hold. There's too much evidence against it. Also, it would be extremely odd if Snake-Demon was Griffith and neither Snake-Demon nor Guts even mentions each other's name or any of the past events associated specifically with them, during their physical confrontation in episode 1.

I discussed this with others in another forum. Everyone there saw the demon as Griffith. Only you don't see the connection.
I have seen nobody here or on Berserk websites that has entertained your theory. But that is besides the point. Just because others agreed with you on the Internet doesn't make your argument any better or worse.

[MeMyself]

OK, then that is not Griffith in episode 1. So now we have a few holes in the plot to fill. For example, how did the demon get his hands on the Head of the King? Oh, I know! Griffith needed some extra cash, so he offered it for sale on E-bay!
:lol: