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View Full Version : "The Gundam Cheapness Effect" The Federation's unfair edge in the UC…


Black_Knight
03-03-2002, 05:32 PM
Okay well all know Gundam has some unfair advantages throughout and about in the series… But is it some past any good consistancy?

First off, this is not gonna be one of my run of the mill Gundam Wing Bashing sections… I have decided to focus on the Federation this time in the UC on the battles with Zeon…

1. Our first look is with the orignal Mobile Suit Gundam… In the begining of the series… Amuro had a major advantage with the armoring of the Gundam… But as time progressed this advatage melted away serieously with the increase power in Zeon weapons… But still, the Gundam managed to survive with a few lost sheilds, and some holes in the body… Yet this didn't stop the Trojian Horse and her crew from wipeing out Zeon group and instilations by the armies… I mean come on, they went up against ace pilots like Char and Ramba Ral and battle harden veterans supporting them… And these newbies take them all out with what? Damaged treads and a broken cannon? Give me a break! These people aren't even Newtypes and yet they keep on living… It really butters my muffen to see this… Sure you have to keep the hero's alive but how about that… Let's look at are the survival rates…

The Feddies have Matilda Ajan, Ryu Jose, Sleggar Law, Woody Malden and General Revil… And about 50 others I've seen die in Mobile Suits or shot…

If those are the only ones you can think of then what about Zeon's list of deaths… Char Aznable, (He suppodly died at the end of the series) Lalah Sune, Gihren Zabi, Dozle Zabi, Kycilia Zabi, Garma Zabi, Degwin Sodo Zabi, M'quve, Ramba Ral, Crowley Hamon, Cozun Graham, Acous, Black Tri-Stars (Gaia, Ortega, and Mash), Challia Bull, Dren, Denim, Gene, Slender, Crown, Steach, Flanagan Boone, Habe, March, Kayahawa, Buttsham, Lasa, Marshy, Akahana, Craft, Ivanov, Madison, Ramsey, Callahan, Godard, Boraskyniv and a whole group of others which I cannot remember… But you get the point… And what about all the unknow soilders too? At least a couple hundrad… It's a one-sided masscare…

I'd Finish this part and go on to 0080, O8th MS team and 0083… But I feel to irritated thinking about this… So I'll write it later…

QVezina
03-03-2002, 06:40 PM
Well, that's largely realistic. Even the best pilots can be taken down by a lucky newbie. Also, many Zeon pilots weren't newtypes either. Char is the only NT I can think of.

As for the major battles...Odessa, Solomon, and A Bao A Qu were not won solely by the White Base (in fact, during A Bao A Qu, the Gundam was mostly sidelined in a running duel with the Zeong, and WB was taken out early on). They were just one of many ships in each of those battles.

Now, I will say this: First Gundam does have unrealistic elements (*cough*G-Parts*cough*), because it was made during the height of the Super Robot era. Most of the later OYW sidestories (MSV, etc.) were more realistic.

Black_Knight
03-03-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by QVezina
Well, that's largely realistic. Even the best pilots can be taken down by a lucky newbie. Also, many Zeon pilots weren't newtypes either. Char is the only NT I can think of.

As for the major battles...Odessa, Solomon, and A Bao A Qu were not won solely by the White Base (in fact, during A Bao A Qu, the Gundam was mostly sidelined in a running duel with the Zeong, and WB was taken out early on). They were just one of many ships in each of those battles.

Now, I will say this: First Gundam does have unrealistic elements (*cough*G-Parts*cough*), because it was made during the height of the Super Robot era. Most of the later OYW sidestories (MSV, etc.) were more realistic.

I was waiting for this…

1. I know even the best pilots can be taken down by lucky shots… But these newbies are getting luckier and luckier every single time…

2. I know they survived these assualts… But they were just lucky because they survived each one… Everyone, where were the Zeon newbie shots then?

3. They may not be invisable… But they are damn well close to it… I'm still scratching my head why the Zeons didn't try to copy it before…

MauveVandal
03-03-2002, 09:23 PM
Well, I could defend Gundam alittle on this. For starters, Zeon soliders had been fighting what Core Fighters, and Battleships right? Perhaps they got their reputation as aces for destroying Core Fighters or leading an attack on a heavily defened base but still doesn't have Mobile Suit squads to defend the base with. Eventually when it came down to it they just didn't know how to handle the Gun-Trio, but I could be wrong because we see in 08th MS Team Mobile Suits in Asia at the time of Grama's death. As for the lack of deaths of the Federation side, WB didn't keep in contact with the Federation General HQ Jaburo. Think about it, WB enters Side 7 alone to pick up the prototype suits. Takes off to Luna II where a battle takes place the Federation does lose some soldiers, WB takes off to Earth alone, lands in Mexico travels across the world from Mexico to North America, Asia, Middle East, Europe, and fianlly arrives at Jaburo with very little contact with the Federation and a lot of conflicts with Zeon. After leaving Jaburo they act as a decoy for the remander of the OYW, and we know how decoys work; alone with very little communication. I could see how getting information on the deaths of top leaders would be hard, in any case this is just all my opinion with very little facts to back it up. But really, when you mention all the dead Zeon soldiers it makes you realize that you got to know the soldiers and at the very least their names. Which does show that the Zeon soldiers were human, and they did fight for a cause other than being just plain evil.

Black_Knight
03-03-2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by MauveVandal
Well, I could defend Gundam alittle on this. For starters, Zeon soliders had been fighting what Core Fighters, and Battleships right? Perhaps they got their reputation as aces for destroying Core Fighters or leading an attack on a heavily defened base but still doesn't have Mobile Suit squads to defend the base with. Eventually when it came down to it they just didn't know how to handle the Gun-Trio, but I could be wrong because we see in 08th MS Team Mobile Suits in Asia at the time of Grama's death.

Well, it doesn't take a fool to take down a mobile suit…-Though more manuverable than battle ships and more fire power than a core fighter… The mobile suit isn't that much different… I mean with that they are mearly ground stationary… The GunTank isn't manuverable… Period, and it should be easy pickings… The Guncannon as well, a few well placed shots… (Which I might add they did get but didn't destory it)… Even though the Amuro did have an excuse being a Newtype… The entire crew except for Syala doesn't have an excuse…



As for the lack of deaths of the Federation side, WB didn't keep in contact with the Federation General HQ Jaburo. Think about it, WB enters Side 7 alone to pick up the prototype suits. Takes off to Luna II where a battle takes place the Federation does lose some soldiers, WB takes off to Earth alone, lands in Mexico travels across the world from Mexico to North America, Asia, Middle East, Europe, and fianlly arrives at Jaburo with very little contact with the Federation and a lot of conflicts with Zeon.



And yet they survive even after being branded as a top priority for Zeon because of Garma's death… Sure there was a defense that needed to be maintained… But I bet that if you took some regiments off the front line and hope they hold and send them after the Trojain Horse… They'd beat them with pure numbers… As for the deaths…-I think the Trojian Horse's motly crew should have crapped out sooner or later… Sure they didn't get that many communicas but one ship verses wave after wave of Zeons? Ha! Stinks like a week old fish!




After leaving Jaburo they act as a decoy for the remander of the OYW, and we know how decoys work; alone with very little communication. I could see how getting information on the deaths of top leaders would be hard, in any case this is just all my opinion with very little facts to back it up. But really, when you mention all the dead Zeon soldiers it makes you realize that you got to know the soldiers and at the very least their names. Which does show that the Zeon soldiers were human, and they did fight for a cause other than being just plain evil.

I resent the fact that you said that Zeon was evil… The Federation was mearly an indifferent, corrupt and incompetant orginization that is oppresing the colonies while using there factories to build up armies to keep them under control… Though some of Zeon's troops have commited some atocities… That is little meant to what the Feddey scum have down in quelling anit-federation peaceful movments…-Look at the fourty bunch incedent… It was also partly the Federations fault for side 2 vering off the trajected course in Operation British and hitting Sydney as well… And with the direct violation of the Atartic Treaty in 0083… Who could say that the Feddies are better than the Zeons?

Lord_Satorious
04-03-2002, 01:40 AM
Black_Knight, let me address your concerns.

Anyone remember someone called Ryu? How about Matilda? Slegger was an ace, and he still kicked the bucket as well. Many of the White Base onscreen crew were either A) bridge staff or B) pilots. On the bridge, we have Mirai and Bright who are both newtypes. Sayla was also a newtype who was tranferred to the G-Fighter/Core Booster when they needed an extra pilot. Amuro was undoubtly a newtype, and although he gets beat down at the beginning of the series, he survives to become the greatest pilot of the One Year War. You can't say White Base didn't lose people, they lost several. The idea is that the series focuses on the White Base. So of course you see the Zeons lose more men, because White Base couldn't have suffered heavy losses otherwise they'd be out of the war and Gundam would have had to focus on another crew.

Char at the beginning of the series was more concerned with killing off the Zabi's than defeating Amuro. And by the time he had a real motive for killing the Gundam, Amuro had already surpassed him in skills. Ranba Ral only lost because he had an inferior mobile suit like the Gouf fighting the Gundam. Then he made the mistake of going melee, which was a bad idea. To anyone who has played Giren's Greed, Ral requested a Dom. Want to keep Ral alive? Give him a Dom, he'll defeat the Gundam.

The Federation loses millions at the beginning of the war, they didn't even have mobile suits. Ships were going down by the hundreds. Nuclear weapons were seeing widespread use. The Federation got beaten back from space all the way to Earth during the first days of the war.

And remember what happens in later Gundam series. Katsu doesn't survive during the Grypps War. Hayato dies in the fight with Haman's Neo-Zeon. Bright lives during Char's Counterattack, with Mirai living on Earth. Sayla and Frau both live civilian lives after the war. Even Amuro and Char die together at the end of Char's Counterattack. And we lose more good guys along the way as well. It's not all Zeon, and the White Base crew don't kill them all. Gato lived past the One Year War. Johnny Ridden disappeared at the end of the war and is presumed dead. Roy Greenwood is rumored to have gone underground to fight against the Federation. I think Shin Matsunaga lives, so does Ian Greydon. These guys are all aces, and they're not dead (presumably).

Hey, Norris bites it, and so does Gato 3 years later. But that's not the point. The idea is that both sides lose important pilots during the course of the war, and both sides also have men that survive. Jack Beard and Adam Stingray both live on afterward (I think they do anyway). This is why the Federation won the war. At the end of it all, they had more talented pilots alive than the Zeons did. I'd say UC Gundam is balanced. Not like Gundam W or Gundam W, where NOBODY dies. OK, Treize doesn't make it, but he had to go anyway. Zeta undoubtly kills off characters, as does ZZ. V Gundam had a new death every week. G Gundam was pretty devoid of pilots dying only because it's a fighting tournament, not Mortal Kombat.

Anyway, I think when you look at the overall picture (which Mobile Suit Gundam only gives part of that picture), the One Year War was set up like any other war, with both sides having massive casualties and loss of units and equipment.

---------------------
Lord_Satorious
Knight of Avalon
The World-Wide Gundam Informational Network (http://www.geocities.com/gundam_uc0079/)

Sieg Zeon! Sieg Zeon! Sieg Zeon!
"The Nu Gundam isn't just for show!" - Capt. Amuro Ray, UC 0093

MauveVandal
04-03-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight
Well, it doesn't take a fool to take down a mobile suit… Though more manuverable than battle ships and more fire power than a core fighter… The mobile suit isn't that much different… I mean with that they are mearly ground stationary… The GunTank isn't manuverable… Period, and it should be easy pickings… The Guncannon as well, a few well placed shots… (Which I might add they did get but didn't destory it)… Even though the Amuro did have an excuse being a Newtype… The entire crew except for Syala doesn't have an excuse…

There is a big difference, Core Fighters for one thing they move 4 times the speed of sound unlike Mobile Suits that the fastest OYW can't even break the sound barrier. Another is the fact that Core Fighters can't turn a full 180 degree faster than Mobile Suits, Core Fighters only have little 25mm Guns and 4 Missiles compared to a Beam Rifle, and finally the Gun-Trio was made out of Lunar Titanium. Each suit was design to work with each other, such as Gundam was close-range, Guncannon mid-range, and Guntank was long range maybe thats why the Guntank made it through the series.

And yet they survive even after being branded as a top priority for Zeon because of Garma's death… Sure there was a defense that needed to be maintained… But I bet that if you took some regiments off the front line and hope they hold and send them after the Trojain Horse… They'd beat them with pure numbers… As for the deaths… I think the Trojian Horse's motly crew should have crapped out sooner or later… Sure they didn't get that many communicas but one ship verses wave after wave of Zeons? Ha! Stinks like a week old fish!

White Base did know how to retreat you know, besides they could run like made which they didn't do often but they could fend off quite a bit. Besides, WB went up against small numbers or weak bases not an entire fleet.

I resent the fact that you said that Zeon was evil… The Federation was mearly an indifferent, corrupt and incompetant orginization that is oppresing the colonies while using there factories to build up armies to keep them under control… Though some of Zeon's troops have commited some atocities… That is little meant to what the Feddey scum have down in quelling anit-federation peaceful movments… Look at the fourty bunch incedent… It was also partly the Federations fault for side 2 vering off the trajected course in Operation British and hitting Sydney as well… And with the direct violation of the Atartic Treaty in 0083… Who could say that the Feddies are better than the Zeons?

I didn't say Zeon was evil, I never said "Zeon is evil". I was simply implying that the antagonist (Zeon not bad guys) were given a lot of attention, and the difference between them and the cliche antagonist who is just evil for no reason (which seems to be popular in the West). I know just as well as anyone The Federation is the Red Cross, but I couldn't careless. Neither The Federation or Zeon deserve control of the Earth and Colonies, I support the AEUG an organization not many people like.

MauveVandal
04-03-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight
Well, it doesn't take a fool to take down a mobile suit… Though more manuverable than battle ships and more fire power than a core fighter… The mobile suit isn't that much different… I mean with that they are mearly ground stationary… The GunTank isn't manuverable… Period, and it should be easy pickings… The Guncannon as well, a few well placed shots… (Which I might add they did get but didn't destory it)… Even though the Amuro did have an excuse being a Newtype… The entire crew except for Syala doesn't have an excuse…

There is a big difference, Core Fighters for one thing they move 4 times the speed of sound unlike Mobile Suits that the fastest OYW can't even break the sound barrier. Another is the fact that Core Fighters can't turn a full 180 degree faster than Mobile Suits, Core Fighters only have little 25mm Guns and 4 Missiles compared to a Beam Rifle, and finally the Gun-Trio was made out of Lunar Titanium. Each suit was design to work with each other, such as Gundam was close-range, Guncannon mid-range, and Guntank was long range maybe thats why the Guntank made it through the series.

And yet they survive even after being branded as a top priority for Zeon because of Garma's death… Sure there was a defense that needed to be maintained… But I bet that if you took some regiments off the front line and hope they hold and send them after the Trojain Horse… They'd beat them with pure numbers… As for the deaths… I think the Trojian Horse's motly crew should have crapped out sooner or later… Sure they didn't get that many communicas but one ship verses wave after wave of Zeons? Ha! Stinks like a week old fish!

White Base did know how to retreat you know, besides they could run like made which they didn't do often but they could fend off quite a bit. Besides, WB went up against small numbers or weak bases not an entire fleet.

I resent the fact that you said that Zeon was evil… The Federation was mearly an indifferent, corrupt and incompetant orginization that is oppresing the colonies while using there factories to build up armies to keep them under control… Though some of Zeon's troops have commited some atocities… That is little meant to what the Feddey scum have down in quelling anit-federation peaceful movments… Look at the fourty bunch incedent… It was also partly the Federations fault for side 2 vering off the trajected course in Operation British and hitting Sydney as well… And with the direct violation of the Atartic Treaty in 0083… Who could say that the Feddies are better than the Zeons?

I didn't say Zeon was evil, I never said "Zeon is evil". I was simply implying that the antagonist (Zeon not bad guys) were given a lot of attention, and the difference between them and the cliche antagonist who is just evil for no reason (which seems to be popular in the West). I know just as well as anyone The Federation is the Red Cross, but I couldn't careless. I never said "The Federation is better than Zeon" in any or form. Neither The Federation or Zeon deserve control of the Earth and Colonies, I support the AEUG an organization not many people like.

Sergeant Wittmann
04-03-2002, 06:27 PM
Every show has it's faults. Even though MSG gave the Feds too much of an edge (from what I've heard, I only saw 6 episodes) but it was still one of the most influential animes and has a good story (from what I've seen). 08th MS Team had that retarded romance between Aina and Shiro (cute? yes. Realistic? Hell no.), and Evangelion had those dopey episodes in the middle. Nothing's perfect (except my girlfriend).

Black_Knight
06-03-2002, 07:50 PM
Ya, ya, I see your point... But they end up killing all the chara's I like... I guess it's my crappy habit of liking the martyers...


Oh ya, LS... Could you mind useing the word spoiler in your phases? Some of those things I didn't want to know yet...

MauveVandal
07-03-2002, 11:25 AM
Zeon was full of people willing to die for a cause, they're all honorable. But I still disagree with how them and the Federation fought this war, neither side deserves control of the Earth and the colonies.

Sergeant Wittmann
07-03-2002, 01:54 PM
You're right, they did a horrible job. The Titans would've done a much better job.

Black_Knight
11-03-2002, 11:12 PM
Well it doesn't matter… More of the Zeons who acutually had names died in front of us… I mean sure Quite a few Feddies kicked the bucket, but as the old saying goes…

"One death is a murder…-One million deaths is a statistic…"

Sheex, The Dark Stalker
12-03-2002, 01:02 AM
Oh joy, another debate with someone who things the Feds are evil because the Zeon's are so 'mondo cool'.


>>First off, this is not gonna be one of my run of the mill Gundam Wing Bashing sections…

Good, those get annoying. You people bash that show too much.


>>1. Our first look is with the orignal Mobile Suit Gundam… In the begining of the series… Amuro had a major advantage with the armoring of the Gundam… But as time progressed this advatage melted away serieously with the increase power in Zeon weapons… But still, the Gundam managed to survive with a few lost sheilds, and some holes in the body…

Because of what you said, the powerful armor of the Gundam, the fact that it had beam weaponry, and that one of the most powerful new types in the universe was piloting it.


>>I mean come on, they went up against ace pilots like Char and Ramba Ral and battle harden veterans supporting them… And these newbies take them all out with what? Damaged treads and a broken cannon? Give me a break!

Except Ranba Ral failed not because of White Base, but because of inner political conflicts within Zeon which resulted in his group running out of supplies.

>>These people aren't even Newtypes and yet they keep on living…

Except Slegger, Matilda, Paolo, Ryu, Woody, just about the entire original crew, etc... You conveniently leave parts out.

>>If those are the only ones you can think of then what about Zeon's list of deaths…
>>Lalah Sune,

Who's death was an accident

>>Gihren Zabi,

who was killed by his sister

>>Kycilia Zabi,

who was killed by a fellow Zeon, Char

>>Garma Zabi,

who died because his fellow Zeon, Char, betrayed him

>>Degwin Sodo Zabi,

who was killed by his son

>>M'quve,

who died because of his own arrogant attitude

>>Ramba Ral,

who died because of inner political conflicts within Zeon, like mentioned before

>>Crowley Hamon,

who died along with an important Fed character


The others are all minor soldiers who you can come up with an equal list of Feddies for. (lets see... all the ships blown up by Dozle in Solomon, Wakkein's ship at Texas colony, the ships the Solar Ray took out, etc...) The fact is that most of the guys you listed were killed not because of White Base, or the Federation, but because of fellow Zeons.


>>I resent the fact that you said that Zeon was evil… The Federation was mearly an indifferent, corrupt and incompetant orginization that is oppresing the colonies while using there factories to build up armies to keep them under control…

LoL! This is what cracks me up about you Fed bashers. Where's your proof?! THE SERIES NEVER PORTRAYS THE FEDERATION AS A INDIFFERENT, CORRUPT ORGANIZATION EVER IN THE ENTIRE SERIES. Before pulling stuff out of your ass, recall that the Zekes fought the war not because the Feds were being mean to them, but because they wanted to take over the entire world. Killing billions upon billions of innocent civilians while the Feds killed a grand total of, get this... ZERO innocent Zeon civilians makes it hard to sympathize with the Zekes, don't you think?

I'm getting really sick of this Fed bashing. If you want to bash the Fed's attitude towards White Base, thats one thing. But to start pulling out lies and spewing crap like this just because the Zeons are 'cooler' is a waste of everyone's time. Next time spend your time starting a topic that actually has a point to it.

Gundammi!
13-03-2002, 06:54 PM
Hey Black Knight,

I'm BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCKKKKK!!!

I remember a thread like this about GW. I'll admit that alot of good points are being brought up and I'm glad to see some inconsistencies being shown in UC as well.

I think I'll leave since UC isn't my forte.

James
13-03-2002, 08:39 PM
I like both sides. Though I do have to agree that the Federation's mobilesuits probably are a little better than Zeon's. But in my opinion that's just how it is. I mean someone has to be the underdog, and I like them usually for that simple reason anyways.

In the end their both just two sides in a war. You can't expect them both to be equal really. Someone's got to have an advantage and a disadvantage. :lol:

Black_Knight
15-03-2002, 07:27 PM
Oh please…-It doesn't take a fool to see the Feddies as incocentant fools…-So the leadership of Zeons was rather foolharty… But what about all the other troops we have come to love in their short schermishes? I mean all the main charas from the Trojian Horse escaped at the end… If this is suppost to be war, I doubt that everyone that we have come to known from the begining of the series…

Besides… This was a one sided feddy story… Even you Sheex should have figured that out…

Lt Amada
15-03-2002, 09:06 PM
When I see the Zeon, all I see is a future mirror of the Nazis.

Their flag looks just like the German Imperial Flag (from 1933 to 1945)!

This is not saying that the Federation is all that good either, because all the feddies became was just an over-grown bureaucracy.

Gundammi!
16-03-2002, 12:53 AM
I wouldn't go so far as to compare Zeon to Nazi Germany.

Ukiki
16-03-2002, 01:36 AM
woah wait a minute now...
first of all, people from earth MADE the colonies, so basically zeon is like a bratty little kid who doesn't want to listen to his mommy

Ukiki
16-03-2002, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by Black_Knight
Besides… This was a one sided feddy story… Even you Sheex should have figured that out…

it's called point-of-view.
stories generally have a protagonist and an antagonist. the feddies are the protagonists in this case

Lt Amada
16-03-2002, 08:04 AM
Look at it this way:

Gilhren is a fanatical madman bent on global (and space) domination. He doesn't have the same motives as Hitler, but he used the same tricks to gain support.

Another thing is, from what I have seen, the Zeon speak in German (I don't know about you, but Seig Zeon sounds an awful lot like Sieg Hiel).

Sheex, The Dark Stalker
16-03-2002, 12:46 PM
Actually he was a lot like Hitler. Even his dad called him Hitler. If you remember correctly, he planned to exterminate a large amount of the remaining population once the war was over.

Black_Knight
16-03-2002, 01:27 PM
But always remember…-The Empire might be evil but not all its citizens are!

DarkPrimus
16-03-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Ukiki
woah wait a minute now...
first of all, people from earth MADE the colonies, so basically zeon is like a bratty little kid who doesn't want to listen to his mommy

Hey, Britain made colonies in what is now America. Are you saying that because they fought for independence that the founders were 'bratty littles kids who don't want to listen to their mommies'?

I think not. If the government does not represent its citizens justly, then the citizens have every right to rebel and form their own government. That is, unless, you disagree with John Locke's philosophies.

Ukiki
17-03-2002, 12:58 AM
i'll support the hitler example then. it never says the federation was treating the colonies unjustly, it just says the rebelled because the federation was treating them unjustly. in other words, Gihren was just telling the people that it was the federation's fault that they were having whetever problems they were having. just like in Nazi Germani

DarkPrimus
17-03-2002, 02:19 AM
The difference being, of course, that the Spacenoids were truely being treated unfairly by the Federation.

Sheex, The Dark Stalker
17-03-2002, 03:11 AM
Which is never hinted at in the entire Mobile Suit Gundam series.

I really wish you people would actually bring up points to support your argument that are actually true. In terms of the One Year War, the Federation was never presented as oppressive to the colonies. Not in 8th MS Team, not in 0080, and most importantly not in the original. Time to start brining up theories with actual facts behind them.

MauveVandal
17-03-2002, 11:35 AM
True is neve said "The Federation is oppressing the spacenoids", well its never said excet when Gihren give's his speech. Also White Base crew, sure it seems unlikely they live through a war but this is where the writing and story aspects must be looked at. In any case, they might have a a little advantage like a 1 centimeter on yard stick compared to GW.

Black_Knight
17-03-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Sheex, The Dark Stalker
Which is never hinted at in the entire Mobile Suit Gundam series.

I really wish you people would actually bring up points to support your argument that are actually true. In terms of the One Year War, the Federation was never presented as oppressive to the colonies. Not in 8th MS Team, not in 0080, and most importantly not in the original. Time to start brining up theories with actual facts behind them.


Well then…-Explain to me why so many colonists supported the Zeons or why so many techs from Anehiem (Spell?) Were Zeon Sypathizers? I mean if they were so cruel and oppersive…

Lt Amada
17-03-2002, 09:20 PM
It was probably due to the Gilhren's efforts to create nationalistic feelings between the spacenoids to gain support.

Sheex, The Dark Stalker
18-03-2002, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Black_Knight

Well then…-Explain to me why so many colonists supported the Zeons

They didn't. Only the Side 3 citizens. Did you forget? The citizens of Sides 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 lived peacefully and had no qualm with the Federation. Then those oh so perfect good guys, the Zeons, went and nuked them all to death. The civilians of Side 3 could care less; since Side 3 was untouched during the war they lived in complete peace like there was no war going around. Their fellow spacenoids in Side 1, etc... were less fortunate, being either gassed corpses or blasted to dust from nuclear explosions.

Dark Genesis
18-03-2002, 12:22 AM
I think the whole point is that war's a ***** and both sides can commit atroicites. War is just a matter of what you fight for and how.

Lt Amada
18-03-2002, 08:52 PM
EXACTLY!

That's just the kind of message that 0080 put forward (which also explains why I like it so much).

Black_Knight
19-03-2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by Sheex, The Dark Stalker


They didn't. Only the Side 3 citizens. Did you forget? The citizens of Sides 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 lived peacefully and had no qualm with the Federation. Then those oh so perfect good guys, the Zeons, went and nuked them all to death. The civilians of Side 3 could care less; since Side 3 was untouched during the war they lived in complete peace like there was no war going around. Their fellow spacenoids in Side 1, etc... were less fortunate, being either gassed corpses or blasted to dust from nuclear explosions.

But most of the survivors still had Zeon sympathy… Look at side 6, untill the end of the war, they supported the Zeons… Or at least in a neutral type of way…

MauveVandal
19-03-2002, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


But most of the survivors still had Zeon sympathy… Look at side 6, untill the end of the war, they supported the Zeons… Or at least in a neutral type of way…

But if you're neutral you support neither side of a conflict, I think its one of those things where its ether a yes or a no.

Maccy99
20-03-2002, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Black_Knight



Well then…-Explain to me why so many colonists supported the Zeons or why so many techs from Anehiem (Spell?) Were Zeon Sypathizers? I mean if they were so cruel and oppersive…

If you're wondering why the colonies supported the Zeons the answer can be seen in Nazi Germany. The German people by and large supported the German government because they were brainwashed. They had problems and Hitler, like the Dozel family, skillfully told them propaganda and blamed all their problems on the Earthers and all of a sudden the colonist fight for what they think is the cause of freedom from oppression but is actually the cause of making the Dozel family great.

Lt Amada
20-03-2002, 09:26 PM
I already said that! :dodgy:

Atticus
20-03-2002, 11:49 PM
there is a difference between the germans and the dozle family. hitler commited genocide and zeon was not selective on the race of their enemies.

Maccy99
21-03-2002, 04:11 AM
Originally posted by Lt Amada
I already said that! :dodgy:

Yeah, well sorry.:heh: Just saw an argument that was really easy to attack so I did, didn't read the part where you posted.

And the Zeons were selective about the race they killed. They killed Earthers and anyone affiliated with Earthers. Same as Hitler who killed non Germans and anyone associated with non-Germans.

DarkPrimus
21-03-2002, 05:01 PM
No, Hitler did not kill "non-Germans". He imprisoned anyone who did not conform to the Nazi Socalist Party's political views, such as the Communists or Catholics, and he imprisoned those he deemed inferior to the 'Aryan race', such as Jews and homosexuals.

Zeon was nothing like that.

Ukiki
21-03-2002, 07:40 PM
what we were talking about had othing to do with who they were killing in the first place. the argument was that their methods of getting the people on their side were the same...
...baka ¬.¬"

DarkPrimus
21-03-2002, 07:54 PM
No, actually, I believe that you're the baka, for making such an erronous analogy. :dodgy:

Atticus
21-03-2002, 09:09 PM
that was kind of a show stoper. :heh:

MauveVandal
22-03-2002, 11:49 AM
Though Zeon is a lot like the Nazi Germans, they called themselves a "Master Race". They do have German names, and the name of suits are German "kaempfer" "Neui Ziel" they say "Seig Zeon" . They wanted a dictatorship, their leader had the gift of a silver tongue. Though Zeon wasn't selective in who they killed, or captured its fairly obvious that Zeon is the same as Nazi Germany.

Atticus
22-03-2002, 11:44 PM
it's a low blow but just because the Lous are communists does that mean they are the same as the russians?

MauveVandal
23-03-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Atticus
it's a low blow but just because the Lous are communists does that mean they are the same as the russians?

The Lous?! Who the beans are you talking about, Laos? Yes it does, a communists is a communists you stupid Canadian Communist.

Black_Knight
23-03-2002, 01:19 PM
How about we say the the Feddies are like the Soveits?

Sheex, The Dark Stalker
23-03-2002, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight
How about we say the the Feddies are like the Soveits? Better yet, lets call the Zeons 'The Heavenly Angels' since they're perfect in everyway, and the Feddies 'Hell's Scum' since they have the audacity to defend their own citizens!

Black_Knight
24-03-2002, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Sheex, The Dark Stalker
Better yet, lets call the Zeons 'The Heavenly Angels' since they're perfect in everyway, and the Feddies 'Hell's Scum' since they have the audacity to defend their own citizens!

Don't partonize us… You know what I ment Sheexy…

Black_Knight
24-03-2002, 11:26 PM
Oh and more meat to the debate… Anyone see the battle in 0083 last Saturday night? I mean that was perposturous…

Atticus
25-03-2002, 11:03 PM
yes, commarade.

Sergeant Wittmann
26-03-2002, 05:32 PM
The Zeon are definitely Nazi inspired. They have a militaristic world view, they built up large armed forces, they used highly advanced weapons that revolutionized warfare, their uniforms loked amazingly similar to German uniforms (their fatigue caps looked EXACTLY like WW2 ones), they succeeded spectacularly in the beginning of the war and lost in a big way when it ended, they killed large numbers of civilians (Nazis weren't that picky either, anyone who defied them was fair game), they had a strong propoganda machine, they had aces (Like Erich Hart, Hans Ulrich Rudel, and Michael Wittmann), and were one of the great military machines of human history.

The Feddies are like the Soviet Union in a number of ways. They were unprepared to deal with an assault by a modern military, they had stronger numbers than Zeon (in terms of population and I think MS by the end), their troops were undisciplined when on leave (MSG ep. 14, Michel and Eledore), and they mass-produced good quality MS to offset their foes with numerical superiority. I haven't seen enough of the show to know if they shared the USSR's other, worse qualities.

Black_Knight
26-03-2002, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
The Zeon are definitely Nazi inspired. They have a militaristic world view, they built up large armed forces, they used highly advanced weapons that revolutionized warfare, their uniforms loked amazingly similar to German uniforms (their fatigue caps looked EXACTLY like WW2 ones), they succeeded spectacularly in the beginning of the war and lost in a big way when it ended, they killed large numbers of civilians (Nazis weren't that picky either, anyone who defied them was fair game), they had a strong propoganda machine, they had aces (Like Erich Hart, Hans Ulrich Rudel, and Michael Wittmann), and were one of the great military machines of human history.

The Feddies are like the Soviet Union in a number of ways. They were unprepared to deal with an assault by a modern military, they had stronger numbers than Zeon (in terms of population and I think MS by the end), their troops were undisciplined when on leave (MSG ep. 14, Michel and Eledore), and they mass-produced good quality MS to offset their foes with numerical superiority. I haven't seen enough of the show to know if they shared the USSR's other, worse qualities.

Well I guess that summed up my thought effectively…

MauveVandal
28-03-2002, 09:52 AM
I think its a good explaination, Feddies are Soviets and Zeeks are Nazi. The AEUG is the Vietcong, Titans are like the French when they had control over most Indoasia.

Sergeant Wittmann
28-03-2002, 01:18 PM
Are you thinking Indochina, because the Dutch controlled Indonesia. And unless the AEUG committed oodles of atrocities then the Vietcong wouldn't be a good comparison either.

MauveVandal
28-03-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
Are you thinking Indochina, because the Dutch controlled Indonesia. And unless the AEUG committed oodles of atrocities then the Vietcong wouldn't be a good comparison either.

I meant Indochina, thanks for clearing that up. But yeah, in some ways the AEUG is like the Vietcong and in other ways they're totally different.

Sergeant Wittmann
28-03-2002, 10:20 PM
I think the Titans are much more like the Waffen SS or NKVD than anything else. The SS and NKVD were armies within armies, held a tremendous political sway, and a sergeant from one of these forces had authority over much higher ranking regular officers. They also have black uniforms like the SS did in the early days.

Black_Knight
30-03-2002, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
I think the Titans are much more like the Waffen SS or NKVD than anything else. The SS and NKVD were armies within armies, held a tremendous political sway, and a sergeant from one of these forces had authority over much higher ranking regular officers. They also have black uniforms like the SS did in the early days.

Which SS? I know that there were two different SSs in the Germany army…-The military itself and then those who are what you say, the secert police…

Black_Knight
31-03-2002, 06:58 PM
Gundam Cheapness Effect: 08th MS team…

In the opening episode, the Ball Shriow piloted took five seconds of direct countinual machine gun… And although it was damaged… It should have been destoried… Pure and simple…

Sergeant Wittmann
31-03-2002, 11:52 PM
You're thinking of the Waffen SS and the Algemeine SS. The secret police were the Gestapo. Anyway, the Waffen SS were the guys at the front, the ones with the newest equipment, the best training, and the snazziest tanks. They were arguably Nazi Germany's toughest troops. Although they did play a small part in the holocaust and committed their fair share of atrocities, they weren't as bad as their Algemeine SS comrades.
The Algemeine SS did a ton of different things, I can barely think of half the stuff they did; from the menial to the diabolical. But I do know that they played a big role in the holocaust. One of their duties was to run prisons and concentration camps.

Black_Knight
01-04-2002, 09:00 AM
:fftopic:

Sergeant Wittmann
01-04-2002, 12:16 PM
Who diverged in the first place?

Lt Amada
01-04-2002, 04:02 PM
When I see the Zeon, all I see is a future mirror of the Nazis.

Their flag looks just like the German Imperial Flag (from 1933 to 1945)!

This is not saying that the Federation is all that good either, because all the feddies became was just an over-grown bureaucracy.


That would be me! :D

Eddy
01-04-2002, 06:49 PM
It is obvious Zeon was supposed to be the nazi's. I mean why did there mobile suits look so evil and alien whilethe federation's looked like heroic power rangers?

Black_Knight
02-04-2002, 11:00 PM
*Sign* Never mind…

Here's one from 0083… Gelgoo takes a hit in the arm with the shield still in place from a run of the mill, gun of a GM and it explodes… Yet the same thing happens to the Gundam and it takes a much harder beating… And no pop…

DarkPrimus
02-04-2002, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Eddy
It is obvious Zeon was supposed to be the nazi's. I mean why did there mobile suits look so evil and alien whilethe federation's looked like heroic power rangers?

Because in 0079, the Feddies are protrayed very blatently as the "good guys", that's why.

In later series, especially the OVAs, the factions are shown to be very similar, while being very different.

DarkCode
10-04-2002, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight
*Sign* Never mind…

Here's one from 0083… Gelgoo takes a hit in the arm with the shield still in place from a run of the mill, gun of a GM and it explodes… Yet the same thing happens to the Gundam and it takes a much harder beating… And no pop…

I'll take a wack at this one...............

If memory serves me correctly, The GP01 used the beam rifle(he does have it on the ship), and gelgoogs were made a whole 4 years ago, and the camera angle was too definate, but I think I shall watch that episode again, correct me if Im wrong.

Black_Knight
10-04-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by DarkCode


I'll take a wack at this one...............

If memory serves me correctly, The GP01 used the beam rifle(he does have it on the ship), and gelgoogs were made a whole 4 years ago, and the camera angle was too definate, but I think I shall watch that episode again, correct me if Im wrong.

Er… I'm talking about the later one… The one the GM that the old feddy fart with the broken leg pilot that shot it…

DarkCode
11-04-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


Er… I'm talking about the later one… The one the GM that the old feddy fart with the broken leg pilot that shot it…

Oh, whoops foolish me, What episode was that in? I'll check it out once I get the EP name.

Black_Knight
11-04-2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by DarkCode


Oh, whoops foolish me, What episode was that in? I'll check it out once I get the EP name.

I think it was eps 5…

Black_Knight
12-05-2002, 04:23 PM
The Gundam Cheapness Effect strikes again! This time in Stardust Memory in eps 12!

Only 4 Mobile suits with one with a mobile upgrade, and a small assualt carrier verses a regement of Zeon troopers…

Am I missing something when all of the Feddies here escape without dieing while only Gato escapes?

That is ------- cheapness right there! Were's the wild random shots there!?!

Sergeant Wittmann
12-05-2002, 06:06 PM
So? It's not like 0083 is good or anything.

Black_Knight
12-05-2002, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
So? It's not like 0083 is good or anything.

Good point… Except for Gato and Delaz… Those two kick ass…

Sergeant Wittmann
12-05-2002, 10:34 PM
Gato has fruity hair, but he's fine otherwise.

MauveVandal
13-05-2002, 10:25 AM
Gato isn't very cool in my opinion, doesn't he have other things on his mind besides war? "Operation Stardust, Zeon will rise again! I shall eat a Zeonic lunch, then praise Zeon by saying that the Neue Ziel embodies the spirit of Zeon but it looks like a giant Zeonic banana."

Sergeant Wittmann
13-05-2002, 01:48 PM
Gato: WITTMANN!!! How dare you insult my hair! It embodies the spirit of Zeon!

Me: Your hair embodies the spirit of 'look at me, I'm a twink!'

Actually, it's not al that strange for someone like Gato to become fixated on war. I remember reading an interview with a fundamentalist Muslim fighter a few months back where they were asking him questions about what made him happy, what his hobbies were, etc. I swear to god his answer to every question was "I am most happy during Jihad." So it's not too unbelievable for Gato to be the same way.

Lt Amada
13-05-2002, 05:12 PM
The ironic thing about Gato is that even through the many times that he talked down to Kou about being "Just another cog in the war machine", he himself turns out to be just the same.

Black_Knight
13-05-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Lt Amada
The ironic thing about Gato is that even through the many times that he talked down to Kou about being "Just another cog in the war machine", he himself turns out to be just the same.


I beg to differ… He fights for his ideals… Unlike Kou… Just what does he fight for… What are you fighting for here in this forum angainst Gato?

Sergeant Wittmann
13-05-2002, 06:04 PM
It's interesting, when Gato points out that Kou doesn't fight for anything, he's showing the writers' shortcoming of not making him enough of a rounded character. Why does Kou fight? He needs to for the story.

Black_Knight
13-05-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
It's interesting, when Gato points out that Kou doesn't fight for anything, he's showing the writers' shortcoming of not making him enough of a rounded character. Why does Kou fight? He needs to for the story.

But to be able to match power with Gato… That's insane! I mean this Kou… Has the ablilites of a Fodder GM pilots…-Gato should have and would have (Only because the writers wouldn't allow it) killed Kou and almost everyone at the base in the first and second eps…

To be able to match Gato… And to have all the pilots of that Trojan Horse clone survive… That is the core of the Gundam Cheapness effect…

Sergeant Wittmann
13-05-2002, 08:36 PM
But that's just the thing, if everyone dies in the first few episodes, then where's your story? Also, combat is a far too random thing for anyone to just say "he should've been killed," or "he should have survived that." Men have died from minor wounds while others survived mortar rounds impacting their chest cavities. It's all chance. Skill, training, and good equipment all play their parts but what it all comes down to is what trajectory the round is coming in at.

Black_Knight
13-05-2002, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
But that's just the thing, if everyone dies in the first few episodes, then where's your story? Also, combat is a far too random thing for anyone to just say "he should've been killed," or "he should have survived that." Men have died from minor wounds while others survived mortar rounds impacting their chest cavities. It's all chance. Skill, training, and good equipment all play their parts but what it all comes down to is what trajectory the round is coming in at.

At this point…-It's damn dumb luck and the Gundam Cheapness effect…

Keep the plot running! Kill the villians! This is a morality tail! They have to go down someway!

Atticus
13-05-2002, 11:18 PM
"so you're going to nuke the psycho, that's original!"
~~~Blue sub 6

Black_Knight
13-05-2002, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Atticus
"so you're going to nuke the psycho, that's original!"
~~~Blue sub 6


Er… And how was that any different from spam?

MauveVandal
13-05-2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


At this point…-It's damn dumb luck and the Gundam Cheapness effect…

Keep the plot running! Kill the villians! This is a morality tail! They have to go down someway!

Someone just whines to much, Zeon lost the war man! No it wasn't because of the cheapness effect, or simply because the Federation is seen as "the good guys" because the creator made it that way. So whine to him dammit! And while you're at it, ask him how you spell Zeon, Zion, Jion.

Black_Knight
14-05-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by MauveVandal


Someone just whines to much, Zeon lost the war man! No it wasn't because of the cheapness effect, or simply because the Federation is seen as "the good guys" because the creator made it that way. So whine to him dammit! And while you're at it, ask him how you spell Zeon, Zion, Jion.

And your denieing the truth…

Gundammi!
14-05-2002, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


And your denieing the truth…

(claps)
Spelling is fun!

Lt Amada
14-05-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight
I beg to differ… He fights for his ideals… Unlike Kou… Just what does he fight for… What are you fighting for here in this forum angainst Gato?

Sorry, I should have been more elaborate.

What I meant was, Gato ends up being nothing more than a blind follower of Zeon.

Wait until this Saturday night. You'll see what I mean.

Black_Knight
14-05-2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Lt Amada


Sorry, I should have been more elaborate.

What I meant was, Gato ends up being nothing more than a blind follower of Zeon.

Wait until this Saturday night. You'll see what I mean.

He belives in that… If he is willing to sacrafic himself for the whole… That is not just being a cog for the war machine… That is devotion… The Feddies never show that…

What he meant was that Kou is fighting… But he doesn't know what for… Gato is probably also driven by rage since…-Well, what would the relationship between him and Delaz be?

Eddy
15-05-2002, 05:23 AM
hey sometimes i n real life the good guys win! i mean look at WW2, The Nazi's were very strong and incredibly evil, but Brirtain *the only side not to commit a major attrocitie* won! so sometimes the good guys win just out of fate not because they were the good guys.

DarkMagician
15-05-2002, 10:20 AM
Not to mention the British Army had some of the toughest, most disciplined soldiers and we had an awesome navy fleet.

MauveVandal
15-05-2002, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


And your denieing the truth…

Me denying the truth, the truth is Zeon lost the war. Where does it say in the world of war "good guys" "bad guys"? Who governs who lives on a battlefield and who dies?! There is not law, or rule that states a soldier must die within a certian amount of shots.

TenchiMasaki07
15-05-2002, 04:58 PM
Like Wittman said ealier


Men have died from minor wounds while others survived mortar rounds impacting their chest cavities. It's all chance. Skill, training, and good equipment all play their parts but what it all comes down to is what trajectory the round is coming in at.

War is basically chance like a hundred sets of ten sided dice, different variables affect the next chain of events like population, advancement of techology, where you hit the enemy, what there plan is and how they react to it.

Everything is random. But when you are dealing with good versus bad on television or manga the odds will always be for the good guys unless there is a tendency for the writer to like the bad guys...

if only we had several guys from the production crew of Gundam,then we could inquistion him

Lay the cards on the table
roll the dice
take a shot at destiny

Black_Knight
15-05-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Eddy
hey sometimes i n real life the good guys win! i mean look at WW2, The Nazi's were very strong and incredibly evil, but Brirtain *the only side not to commit a major attrocitie* won! so sometimes the good guys win just out of fate not because they were the good guys.

Well, Hitler could have won against the Britians… But it was the Soveits that led him to defeat… Not finishing Britian and then the Russian winter…

Sergeant Wittmann
15-05-2002, 07:22 PM
Indeed they could have. However, it was unlikely for the Germans to have been able to take out England because the Wehrmacht had no serious amphibious warfare capability and England had some great beach defenses. And we can definitely thank the Russians for the allied victory.

Black_Knight
15-05-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
Indeed they could have. However, it was unlikely for the Germans to have been able to take out England because the Wehrmacht had no serious amphibious warfare capability and England had some great beach defenses. And we can definitely thank the Russians for the allied victory.

All they had to do was increase their submarine warfare by 25% and give three weeks…

Britain would have sufficated without outside assistancr from the States or its colonies…

Eddy
16-05-2002, 06:58 AM
yah if Hitler would have tried to invade we would have sent him packing! Britain are fighters! not like teh french who let us fight the war for them. And as for Holland? pmph! we would have fought hitler to the last man!

Black_Knight
16-05-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Eddy
yah if Hitler would have tried to invade we would have sent him packing! Britain are fighters! not like teh french who let us fight the war for them. And as for Holland? pmph! we would have fought hitler to the last man!

You'd end up like Stalingrad…

Sergeant Wittmann
16-05-2002, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


You'd end up like Stalingrad…

Victorious.

TenchiMasaki07
16-05-2002, 04:57 PM
ahh the Uboats....

No wonder they callthemselves

Bulldogs...English Bulldogs

Cut off the the lifeline to the head and watch it die...unless you got armour....in this case Destroyers and Battleships

The british got even madder at the germans for the sinking of the Hood by the Bismarck

tick off a dog and he will chase you down and he will bite you in the a$$

The germans were good but needed to ignore their superiority complex....

they do make for a good anime basis though

Black_Knight
19-05-2002, 05:21 PM
The final Gundam cheapness effect… The Torjan Horse clone and everyone on it… Except for that old fart pilot… Survived…

How did Kou survive the blast of the Solar system with no I-beam generator? While Gato still had his in the final battle yet the fire power got thought?

DarkPrimus
19-05-2002, 07:08 PM
Kou and Gato were only grazed by the SS. It was only at "25% accuracy" as they said, and a fraction of the system was still intact.

Black_Knight
20-05-2002, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by DarkPrimus
Kou and Gato were only grazed by the SS. It was only at "25% accuracy" as they said, and a fraction of the system was still intact.

"I don't care! Do it!"

Being grazed by it was enought to destory a Salamis(sp?) class starship… What luck would a mobile armor have?

TenchiMasaki07
08-06-2002, 10:23 PM
dang it .....i had a good explanation for that and i closed the window......


here it is again........

many of you may have realized that the solar system is a giant magnifying mirror like the one on the Hubble Space Telescope

thats what it is

and heres a fact......
the atmosphere blocks out a lot of hard radiation (you know the dangerous DNA changing living thing killer) and soft radiation so by the time it reaches your magnifying glass to fry some innocent ant....( dont deny it ...........most of you have done that.....watch them sizzle and pop and then .....So and so!!! Leave the ants alone!! your mother stops your "Experimentations")
the light is much weaker than it was out in space so when you have a lens in space you are messing with temperatures hot enough to melt plastic ceramics iron....and yes Lunar Titanium...

But you dont want to kill the main char so what do yo do??
You keep him next to the edge of the beam where it is weakest....

god have mercy on the ones at the center of the beam...

and when the system is ravaged by Gato...the magnifying power is greatly reduce and the beam is narrower

that is how that effect is explained

no 9th grade teacher could of shown you how to make a weapon of of a mirror.....no you have to see on TV

by the way......NEVER EVER look at the bright focus of a magnifying lens.......unless you have proper eye protection......
the focus tends to burn out the center of your vision...just noticable at night when you bump into something in the middle of your vision

Black_Knight
09-06-2002, 03:45 AM
Sience finally has its worth! :lol:

Anyway, what about Gato's final battle? He still had the I-bean generators, yet he was getting wacked by beam shots…

I'll rule out those missles that the end, but, something a miss there…

TenchiMasaki07
15-06-2002, 05:33 PM
insane uncontrollable anger......??

Black_Knight
21-06-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by TenchiMasaki07
insane uncontrollable anger......??

:dot:


No...

TenchiMasaki07
21-06-2002, 08:24 PM
ohhh that battle.......

::falls asleep at the wheel......and plows into a school zone::

AIEEEEEEE!!!

the effect strikes again?

i wish to be enlightened by black knight on this one....

::bows with honor::

Black_Knight
22-06-2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by TenchiMasaki07
ohhh that battle.......

::falls asleep at the wheel......and plows into a school zone::

AIEEEEEEE!!!

the effect strikes again?

i wish to be enlightened by black knight on this one....

::bows with honor::

Well, you are not a part of that world and this realm does not abide by those morality laws...

MauveVandal
24-06-2002, 11:30 PM
Well, there is still no Cheapness Effect in UC Gundam. As for the GP03 and Neue Ziel I don't think 0083 was suppose to make sense, just explain how the Titans came to be formed and how North American was turned into a waste land.

Black_Knight
26-06-2002, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by MauveVandal
Well, there is still no Cheapness Effect in UC Gundam. As for the GP03 and Neue Ziel I don't think 0083 was suppose to make sense, just explain how the Titans came to be formed and how North American was turned into a waste land.


After all the evadance that has been provided? It really has nothing to do with the Gundam itself, but more that they create disgustingly pitiful Morality tales out of war and they side with the Federation…

Show me one series, where the Zeons have won… Just one… And I mean in the long haul, not just a singul battle…







You can't, can you? That is the effect at work…

MauveVandal
26-06-2002, 11:00 PM
Well there is Stardust Memories, Zeon wins ultimately by dropping another colony. Win not just in a single battle but in the long run, will Zeon and Stardust Memories that OVA was created basicly for Zeon flunkies. I mean you can clearly see the Fed characters were created to be hated, unlike the Zeon soldiers whom everyone loved. They made Kou some stupid Ensign, nobody liked South Burning, or any of the other Imortal Fours. Basicly, Stardust in Zeon's series. And how by winning the OYW did the Federation have victory in the long run? That was the only war they themselves not some speical forces unit, won. The Titans didn't win anything, the lost. Londo Bell was a speical task force comprised of only the best, and they did their job. The AEUG, they couldn't be considered Federation because only after they were disbanded did members from the group join the Federation. So, how is it "Cheapness Effect" when the Federation didn't win in the long run, only one small battle that lasted One Year?

Black_Knight
26-06-2002, 11:14 PM
You are looking to far ahead… Operation Stardust was pretty much a pyyrus(sp?) Victory for the Zeons… Or should I say Delaz fleet…

Also I have expanded the "The Gundam Cheapness Effect" Not just to the Federation now…-But to every "good" group out there, AUEG, Londo Bell

Also speaking of Stardust Memory, that pretty much sums up my theroy… Everyone who's a main chara on the Albion execpt for Brnning survived the conflict even though they went through several major conflicts and went toe-to-toe with Gato "Who" If not restriced to the "The Gundam Cheapness Effect" would have destroied it without hesitation... And how they defeated the Battle hardened vets of Nuren Bitter is still beyond my grasp…

MauveVandal
26-06-2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight
You are looking to far ahead… Operation Stardust was pretty much a pyyrus(sp?) Victory for the Zeons… Or should I say Delaz fleet…

Also I have expanded the "The Gundam Cheapness Effect" Not just to the Federation now…-But to every "good" group out there, AUEG, Londo Bell

Also speaking of Stardust Memory, that pretty much sums up my theroy… Everyone who's a main chara on the Albion execpt for Brnning survived the conflict even though they went through several major conflicts and went toe-to-toe with Gato "Who" If not restriced to the "The Gundam Cheapness Effect" would have destroied it without hesitation... And how they defeated the Battle hardened vets of Nuren Bitter is still beyond my grasp…

To every "good" group, why don't I just make up the "Loser Effect" where the loser of each war, or military action comes up with lame excuses on how they lost and how they complain and moan about it. How could the crew of the Albion, they weren't exactly rookies. The Imortal Four where Federation ace pilots, they knew how to fight. Going toe-to-teo with Gato doesn't mean certain death, and its not like the Albion took on all of the Delaz Fleet. They took on the head section of the fleet, but not all; the remaining fleet of the Federation from A Baoa Qu did attack.

Black_Knight
27-06-2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by MauveVandal
How could the crew of the Albion, they weren't exactly rookies. The Imortal Four where Federation ace pilots, they knew how to fight. Going toe-to-teo with Gato doesn't mean certain death, and its not like the Albion took on all of the Delaz Fleet. They took on the head section of the fleet, but not all; the remaining fleet of the Federation from A Baoa Qu did attack.

So? Even aces get shoot by "Radom fire" And going Toe-to-Toe with Gato does ussually mean certain death as well… But not in this case… Besides, one assualt carrier cannot take on all the ships and moblie suits it did… I mean the Salamis escorts they had were blown to hell in the first Cima battle within the first min!

MauveVandal
27-06-2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


So? Even aces get shoot by "Radom fire" And going Toe-to-Toe with Gato does ussually mean certain death as well… But not in this case… Besides, one assualt carrier cannot take on all the ships and moblie suits it did… I mean the Salamis escorts they had were blown to hell in the first Cima battle within the first min!

The White Base did, but like I said its not like they took on the entire fleet. Gato was killed by "random fire" yes the Neue Ziel had that I-Field but how do we know it protects both the front and the back. We know it protects the front, because of all the shots it deflected from the battle with the pursuit fleet. But we never saw the Neue Ziel shot in the back, and I do recall during Gato's last attack a shot from behind. That or the I-Field was either over heated, there are so many things that could've happen that it simply rules out that "Cheapness Effect". Thus comes into play the "Loser Effect" and how that one of Zeon's ace pilots where killed, and that they lost another victim of Zeon mind control.

Black_Knight
27-06-2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by MauveVandal


The White Base did, but like I said its not like they took on the entire fleet. Gato was killed by "random fire" yes the Neue Ziel had that I-Field but how do we know it protects both the front and the back. We know it protects the front, because of all the shots it deflected from the battle with the pursuit fleet. But we never saw the Neue Ziel shot in the back, and I do recall during Gato's last attack a shot from behind. That or the I-Field was either over heated, there are so many things that could've happen that it simply rules out that "Cheapness Effect".

Thus comes into play the "Loser Effect" and how that one of Zeon's ace pilots where killed, and that they lost another victim of Zeon mind control.

Ha… First off, The Nuel Ziel had four I-Fields generators, that is a nice sum… Second, they did not take on the entire fleet, but the amount of forces they ran into and survived against… Well, that is a nice string of luck…

As for the "Loser Effect" Don't be so over confident… The Zeons did win… Didn't they? :D

MauveVandal
28-06-2002, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


Ha… First off, The Nuel Ziel had four I-Fields generators, that is a nice sum… Second, they did not take on the entire fleet, but the amount of forces they ran into and survived against… Well, that is a nice string of luck…

As for the "Loser Effect" Don't be so over confident… The Zeons did win… Didn't they? :D

So why not claim Cheapness Effect on your beloved Zeon? Where does it say that one ship cannot survive, is it the laws of survival, the laws of reason, of war? Blah don't make me laugh, a smaller number can always beat a bigger number. Like I said before about the I-Field Generators, how do we know they weren't over heated, or damaged? It was hit by the Solar System, which makes you wonder how could the Neue Ziel survived the GPO3 was behind the Neue Ziel must be some sort of "Cheapness Effect", eh?

Black_Knight
28-06-2002, 03:50 PM
Yet GP03 escaped completly unscaved… I mean, the outfit was all but destroied…

As for the I-Feild, sure three of them could have been damaged, but as long as one survived, beams would have bounced off… Also, if all four gave out, Neul Ziel would have been blown to hell…


Funny how some of these troops when the "heros" attack, forget how to strafe…

Eddy
28-06-2002, 06:40 PM
yeah..how did all the oz suits egt destroyed so easily...

MauveVandal
28-06-2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight
Yet GP03 escaped completly unscaved… I mean, the outfit was all but destroied…

As for the I-Feild, sure three of them could have been damaged, but as long as one survived, beams would have bounced off… Also, if all four gave out, Neul Ziel would have been blown to hell…


Funny how some of these troops when the "heros" attack, forget how to strafe…

Why did GP03 come out just fine, it was behind the Neue Ziel and you said yourself... but as long as one survived, beams would have bounced off

If one survived, sure it would deflect only so many. Besides, what does the Neue Ziel need four for unless its for Front-Back-Left-Right? Maybe the only I-Field Generator that survived was in the back, and yes the Neue Ziel did seem to die from a shot to the back but it did take some in the front? And if the I-Field Generators give a 360 degree protection they could still over heat from a blast from the Solar System, there are just so many things that it rules out some sort of "Cheapness Effect".

Yeah that is funny, how "aces" can hit troops when strafing, like Char, Anaval, etc.

Black_Knight
29-06-2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by MauveVandal


If one survived, sure it would deflect only so many. Besides, what does the Neue Ziel need four for unless its for Front-Back-Left-Right? Maybe the only I-Field Generator that survived was in the back, and yes the Neue Ziel did seem to die from a shot to the back but it did take some in the front? And if the I-Field Generators give a 360 degree protection they could still over heat from a blast from the Solar System, there are just so many things that it rules out some sort of "Cheapness Effect".

Yeah that is funny, how "aces" can hit troops when strafing, like Char, Anaval, etc.

If they overheated the Nuel Ziel would have been destoried… It's as simple as that… Also as for the strafing… Thats only for the cannon fodder… Notice when they fight main charas, they just can't kill them…

MauveVandal
29-06-2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


If they overheated the Nuel Ziel would have been destoried… It's as simple as that… Also as for the strafing… Thats only for the cannon fodder… Notice when they fight main charas, they just can't kill them…

Exactly when "aces" fight cannon fodder the cannon fodder forget to strafe, this implies for both side of a conflict. How do you know for a fact the Neue Ziel would've exploded, just guessing eh?

Black_Knight
29-06-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by MauveVandal


Exactly when "aces" fight cannon fodder the cannon fodder forget to strafe, this implies for both side of a conflict. How do you know for a fact the Neue Ziel would've exploded, just guessing eh?

Well refer to #11 - Law of Inherent Combustibility

http://www.bright.net/~nyla/animelaw.html

Guildenstern
01-07-2002, 04:49 AM
First of all I'll say that I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread, I guess you all know how much your opinion means to a jerk like me ;) .

Gundam slapping the crap out of Zeon...well you covered the important bits it seems, the superior armor and materials, the advanced technology, Amuro's "New Type" status, don't know if you mentioned that upgrade that Amuro's pop gives him. The most important aspect, the one which sends all of our problems and arguements to the four winds would be that this is an anime and thus the will of the creators wins through, I'm sure there is someone out there who would have killed off Amuro and crew but this bunch didn't.

I'm off to revel in my own putrid soul and black karma, ciao! :D

Black_Knight
01-07-2002, 03:57 PM
I find that to be at the core of the "Gundam Cheapness Effect" I shall right a complete manifesto later…

MauveVandal
13-07-2002, 10:54 PM
Gundam Cheapness Effect? Unfair edge, still yet again who decides whats fair and unfair in a fictional world?

Black_Knight
14-07-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by MauveVandal
Gundam Cheapness Effect? Unfair edge, still yet again who decides whats fair and unfair in a fictional world?

The writers no doubt…_But I think when I have the time, I'll disect every eps of the Gundam series seen in the states and point out where it all goes to the cheapness…

Righyt now I'm going to start up my old argument that Shirow and Aina should have been deep fried in the Ez-8 at the end of 08th MS team…

Eddy
14-07-2002, 06:46 PM
[i]Righyt now I'm going to start up my old argument that Shirow and Aina should have been deep fried in the Ez-8 at the end of 08th MS team… [/B]

I could'nt agree with you more BK, when i saw the end of 08th team i thought it was so sad i nearly cried..but when it came to the end of the credits and i saw they were both alive i nearly puked! i mean how the hell do you durvive and explosion that big! HOW THE HELL! They ruined a perfectly good sad and emotional ending by making them survive...

MauveVandal
14-07-2002, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by Black_Knight


The writers no doubt…_But I think when I have the time, I'll disect every eps of the Gundam series seen in the states and point out where it all goes to the cheapness…

And complaining about this cheapness effect will make it go away how?

Black_Knight
14-07-2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by MauveVandal


And complaining about this cheapness effect will make it go away how?

It won't…_I just wish to show you once and for all that the Effect is plazable not just within Gundam Wing and Gundam X…

MauveVandal
15-07-2002, 12:18 PM
Nope, still not convinced about there being a Cheapness Effect in the UC. A good majority of things can be explained, unlike GWing or GX.