Snake eyes

[Nairohe]

this thread is deddicated to discussion about who snake eyes is, how he came to be, where he came from, which bodies he used and what his motives are. Whoever answers these wonderful questions and explains this gets a cookie!

yes, a cookie!

[heart havok]

okay.. where are the questions :liplick:

[Nairohe]

let's start with the basics...

1. What's the secret society that snake eyes is working for?
2. What is snake eyes?
3. What was snake eyes' original body?
4. Who is snake eyes?
5. Why did he go on a killing spree? Why those children? why didn't he kill Suema right away when he could've done it so easily?

[heart havok]

Originally posted by Nairohe
let's start with the basics...
^_^
Originally posted by Nairohe
1. What's the secret society that snake eyes is working for?

i personally believe the Secret Society to be either one of two things... either 'us' watching everything that's going on...the creators' own ways of making 'us' a third person. or a form of misdirection. i moreso am leaning towards the first of these two ideas... now, assuming that is correct, what 'we' are... i believe that we are [evolved adults] those who are studying the evolving children. perhaps an organization who is helping contribute to the changes in the city, or perhaps simple studying and observing. 'we' have our few messangers [Spooky Electric] and interactors [Snake Eyes]... perhaps Echoes is only a player in 'our' Society.
Originally posted by Nairohe
2. What is snake eyes?
either an evolved personna, another supernatural being such as Manticore, or perhaps something beyond this animated series.
Originally posted by Nairohe
3. What was snake eyes' original body?
i haven't made note of them ever actually showing an original, yet i'm sure of a few majors. Snakes Eyes {as the Doctor} was the Serial Killer.. it then went on to Morita, and finally Morita's partner {which is when we see Snake Eyes' memory of killing Rie as the Doctor}. this is yet another reason why i wish they would translate the film and novels.
Originally posted by Nairohe
4. Who is snake eyes?
who? i suppose a composite human... simply one of the interactors from this "Secret Society." that is, if the Secret Society truly exists... perhaps playing Serial Killer for various reasons. we do know that he was particularly stalking Suema yet it doesn't really point towards any "why"s.
Originally posted by Nairohe
5. Why did he go on a killing spree? Why those children? why didn't he kill Suema right away when he could've done it so easily?
one question for you: when could he have done so easily?

i honestly don't think the Series touches these ideas. the original novels are widespread, and they apparently cover much more on Echoes and the creation of Boogiepop and Snake Eyes... i've even read that all our other side-characters such as Spooky Electric have much larger roles in the novels. hell, even that guy burning paper in an ashtray in vol.9! hah. damn i want those novles :(


well, i know i didn't answer much, but maybe we can figure more out by your replies to my answers or the such. anyone?

[GigaSheep]

You missed a few things i think:

Snake Eye is a composite human for sure. He is killing the evolved kids for the organization because the organization's goal is to prevent change, and keep human society as it is. Hyper-evolution does not fit in with this goal, thus the kids need to be killed.

Suema is being targeted by the killer because she knows too much. We know she has been researching the mysteries.

The Towa Organization definitely exists, and I think their HQ is the large tower with red lights we see looming sometimes.

The main conflicts of the series are:

Boogiepop (CHANGE, MOVING ON)
vs.
Organization (NON-CHANGE, STAYING THE SAME)

and

Echoes/Manticore (THE FUTURE)
vs.
Poom-Poom/Manaka (THE PAST)


NB: yes, there is conflict between echoes and manaka. even though they eventually coexist in the same body, echoes power different than Manaka's innate ability to bring back the past.

[Ryoma]

Originally posted by Nairohe
let's start with the basics...

1. What's the secret society that snake eyes is working for?
2. What is snake eyes?
3. What was snake eyes' original body?
4. Who is snake eyes?
5. Why did he go on a killing spree? Why those children? why didn't he kill Suema right away when he could've done it so easily?

1. Towa Organization...although I differ with GigaSheep in that I thought Snake Eyes specifically said they were world based and that he was sent to the city because of an increase in evolved humans. He says all this before brainwashing the other cop. ep 6?

2. Snake Eyes is a composite human working for Towa.

3. I don't think you ever know, he only says he killed a cop, Morita, and assumed his id upon entering the city.

4. For the series he is the policeman Morita, a composite human sent to kill the evolving humans in the city.

5. He specifically said that in the month since the bright light incident the amount of evolving humans was increasing. I don't think it was as much of a killing spree as there were just a lot of evolving kids to deal with. I don't think he killed Suema because she is not an evolving human, therefore he would have no reason to kill her. Much in the same way as he never killed his police partner, just brainwashed him.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by GigaSheep
The main conflicts of the series are:

Boogiepop (CHANGE, MOVING ON)
vs.
Organization (NON-CHANGE, STAYING THE SAME)

and

Echoes/Manticore (THE FUTURE)
vs.
Poom-Poom/Manaka (THE PAST)


NB: yes, there is conflict between echoes and manaka. even though they eventually coexist in the same body, echoes power different than Manaka's innate ability to bring back the past. [/B]

i definitely agree in some sense with the Boogiepop vs. Organization thing... buw would you care to elaborate on the Echoes/Manticore vs. PoomPoom/Manaka thing?

first of all, i don't quite see the relation of ECHOES to the future other than that he is the last stage of evolution. nor do i see what MANTICORE would really have to do with it.

also, PoomPoom was taking away the pasts from people... so in any sense, i see that he would ironicly be opposing Manaka, who is sharing pasts {and future pasts} rather than on her side...

off to see a film... more elaboration on this later.

adieu.

[GigaSheep]

I think the Echoes/Manticore as-future idea is set out pretty clearly in the last episode. Boogiepop Phantom (yes, she returns briefly as a narrator) explains that their hyper-evolved nerves will span the city until the rest of humanity catches up to their level. We already know that Echoes is the end-stage of humanity, and we know that Manticore is a copy of him (a man-eating clone) as explained in ep5. Echoes and the Manticore are basically the twin futures of humanity: one good, the other evil (its very daoist, no?). The kids are getting pretty evolved too, but Boogiepop Phantom kept them in underground stasis for when conditions get more favorable.

Manaka is obviously related to the past, will we take that for granted? Poom-Poom, however represents regret. He stands for that which we can never have again. The past. This is made pretty clear by Boogiepop in the final scene of episode 10.

Don't forget: Manaka *created* Poom-Poom; he is "just a memory" as he admits himself in ep10. Thus he represents the past. In fact, Boogiepop says Poom-Poom's "existence itself was an illusion". Man I loved episode 10!!! it gave me goosebumps:)

[heart havok]

on to Echoes and Manticore, i certainly agree with everything stated except for the "one good, the other evil"... i didn't find anything pointing towards either of them being good. i'll certainly keep these ideas in mind, however, for my nExt viewing of Boogiepop Phantom.


Manaka, i can definitely agree is related to the past, yet the memories she shares are also of the future. and just as similar... PoomPoom, i can also definitely see symbolising regret as well... yet i still can't relate him to past. i can open my mind to see the perspective of his workings {taking the 'friends'} also relating to the past... and indeed, he is a memory and representation of memory. but i don't believe this to neccessarily make HIM related to past. {as note, Manaka's memories that she shares are also memories that have yet to occur}

i think they stand greatly on an entirely seperate level.

of course, these are indeed technicalities. i'll certainly make use of my nExt viewing to add more here. :)

[GigaSheep]

Manaka shows memories of 'the future' because she transcends time. As suggested by her narration in ep11, she can see all time therefore everything is 'in the past' for her.

Poom-poom can be seen as the danger of the past. Notice that when people take one off Poom-Poom's balloons, their original self (not the inner-child that goes to play) becomes childlike (e.g.Saki in ep9), but then realize there's no point in living. When Poom-Poom leaves in ep10 he says straight to the viewer: "If I return, your friend should not play with me".
i.e. don't become captive to your past, embodied by Poom-Poom. He doesn't take away the past- he returns it to people. Akane (the fairytale writer) says to Toka in ep10: "What would you do if you had lost something very precious and I told you it was possible to get it back again?" She is talking about Poom-Poom returning people the past. Akane writes fairytales because, at some level, she misses the past....

[Ryoma]

Originally posted by GigaSheep
I think the Echoes/Manticore as-future idea is set out pretty clearly in the last episode. Boogiepop Phantom (yes, she returns briefly as a narrator) explains that their hyper-evolved nerves will span the city until the rest of humanity catches up to their level.

I do believe she was talking about the children that BoogiePop Phantom had "saved." When she was making this narration she the scenes of the children in the coccoons was on the screen. She also says about the same thing to the original BoogiePop, that's why Toka puts the theramin down there.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by GigaSheep
Manaka shows memories of 'the future' because she transcends time. As suggested by her narration in ep11, she can see all time therefore everything is 'in the past' for her.
i'll be certain to play an attentive role on this theory of your's as i rewatch vol.11, but from what i recall {and i'd recently reviewed vols.11 + 12}, from her narration along with various other pieces, i got the entire feeling that rather than knowing all time... Manaka was the collective "proof" that time does not at all exist.

"Time does not exist.
Only the illusion of memory exists."
Originally posted by GigaSheep
Poom-poom can be seen as the danger of the past. Notice that when people take one off Poom-Poom's balloons, their original self (not the inner-child that goes to play) becomes childlike (e.g.Saki in ep9), but then realize there's no point in living.
indeed, i believe too that PoomPoom can be seen as the danger of the past. however, i don't interpret that the original selves of the "Balloon Swing Kids" {my own personal name for those who accept the Balloon} became childlike at all, but rather, that he 'took' that childlike part of their original selves. perhaps this could be considered a compromise between the two possibilities you gave.

playing on your given example... in my perspective, i interpreted that Saki didn't become childlike at all, but rather lost that childish part of her. PoomPoom took her childhood desire for music, which resided within her father praising her so much when she was young. and with that desire, was taken; the control over her hands. thus why we see Saki not able to lift her food with her chopsticks. of course, all in perspective though.
Originally posted by GigaSheep
When Poom-Poom leaves in ep10 he says straight to the viewer: "If I return, your friend should not play with me".
i.e. don't become captive to your past, embodied by Poom-Poom. He doesn't take away the past- he returns it to people.
there's alot you could interpret from this line.. i interpretted simply that he now understood that what he was doing was negative, and this line is him confirming that to 'us'.
Originally posted by GigaSheep
Akane (the fairytale writer) says to Toka in ep10: "What would you do if you had lost something very precious and I told you it was possible to get it back again?" She is talking about Poom-Poom returning people the past. Akane writes fairytales because, at some level, she misses the past....
which episode was that line in? i didn't see anything pointing towards PoomPoom.

not much more to add, and i'm really over my timelimit on when i designated myself a bedtime.

thanks for discussing =)

adieu.

[GigaSheep]

I see your point.

The line i'm referring to is when toka and akane are going to Paisely Park in episode 10. Akane says: "I'd like you to meet someone", meaning Poom-Poom... then comes the line I quoted previously.

You're right about Saki. However, I think she definitely becomes childlike, but not in her original way: i.e. she loses her previous abilities (memories). She is very kid-like in the short dinner scene before her death.

Poom Poom returns Saki to her past in mind, but not in memory. She skips around like a kid, but squints at the piano, not remembering what it is... then she lets go of the balloon...

About ep12, with Phantom talking about the nerves spanning the city: it is in reference to the kids and echoes/manticore. The kids are hyper-evolving, and echoes is the end-stage of evolution.so clearly he is the future... and certainly the kids' future. All of the children were touched by echoes' light at one point

As for Manaka, yes, time does not exist. at least not for her, hence she transcends it. She sees the world as a "distorted rainbow where the past folds back on itself".

Let me revise my 'oppositions':

ECHOES/MANTICORE (DANGER OF THE FUTURE)
vs.
POOM-POOM/MANAKA (DANGER OF THE PAST)

[heart havok]

wonderful revision. i can definitely agree with it now.

i'd say everything i see is mostly based on interpretation thru perspective and relation of the information given.

Manaka however, i'm still a bit uneased about... "time does not exist" i don't believe this to relate only to Manaka, but the entire world... Boogiepop World and IRL. certianly, this is because i find it a bit onto personal beliefs, but one of my main beliefs is that "time does not exist"... as time is man-made. occurance happens, but the record of history's only natural way of keep is thru the "illusion of memory." time is a human creation created to record time in form of "past" and "future" when in reality, there is no past, no present, nor future... but rather moment. within these moments we live thru consciousness and occurance; "past," "present," and "future" are all one. as they are all one in form of these moments... "past" thru our memories, "present" thru our conscious knowledge of our surroundings, and "future" thru the decisions and choices we are making within each moment.

but these three words are no more than labels for man's own instrument for recording hystory... "time."

meanwhile, i felt this was one of the largest themes in the series {nExt to change and the such} because of the way 'we' are viewing the series thru the characters' "present" as they look back on their "past"... we are looking directly thru each point of view in terms of moment to moment.

[GigaSheep]

I totally agree. I have always felt that way about time, and the series' focus on it was one of the things I enjoyed most. I'd never seen the idea so well expressed.