The Missing Link !!!

[GigaSheep]

After some extensive research, I figured out who Panuru is.

Panuru is an obscure figure in Japanese Shinto Mythology. Most importantly, Panuru is a fox spirit.

As you will recall, Toka was possessed by a fox spirit.

Now does it all make sense? Think of all the implications! Notice that Panuru's philosophy and Boogiepop's go hand in hand (Boogiepop, unlike the Organization, is all about moving on. Just like Panuru's World Love...)

Traditionally, possession by fox spirits was associated with madness and depression, and was believed to confer abilities of transformation. The folk myth still continues today.

In the show, Boogiepop was born when Panuru was exposed traumatically to death, as seen in ep12. She becomes an avenger that acts out Panuru's words in a violent way.

As for Boogiepop's costume, it seems to resemble a shinto "shishigami": angel/god of death. So Panuru dons this mantle and becomes a death god of sorts: Boogiepop.

Kuroda previously used the costume and the dartwhip. If you look closely in ep12, you can see the hat on the ground near his fallen body. Why did Kuroda dress as a shinto grim reaper?

That's supposedly in the novels, where he is the composite human "scarecrow".


PEACE

[heart havok]

yeah, i noticed the hat last time i watched thru.

AWSOME research you have there.. any links to any of the info? i'd like to read up on this myself as well. meanwhile, all in good time... hopefully this weekend, i'll find the space to rewatch the series with all these wonderful theories and observations of your's in mind. then i'll come back commenting up a storm ;)

[GigaSheep]

A little more on Panuru:

It's possibly Panuru that forms the 'universe' effect on the inside of Boogiepop's cloak. She's the only truly supernatural thing in the show (if she even is... perhaps she's also a personification) and since she's closely linked to Boogiepop, she might be that part of the cloak...that spirit within.

Also... in vol3 Rie (Misuzu's friend) says "I learned all this from... her" presumably referring to Panuru. At the end of vol12, Nagi has one last thing to tell Toka:"say hello to 'her' for me". This is most probably Panuru too! Toka knows about Panuru, but almost certainly does not know about Boogiepop... her split personality.

[Nairohe]

If boogiepop and Toka have always been one and the same all along, why would boogiepop say that she was born on the day that the news reporter guy died?

Originally posted by Nairohe
the question is, was touka boogiepop BEFORE she was admitted to the perfectual hospital? She mentioned that she was admitted due tot he fox spirit around DVD 2, though though boogiepop was actually born the night she put the cloak on from the dying Kuroda.



Originally posted by heart havok
yes yes! i think only... more accuratly:

Touka possessed by fox spirit.
Touka admitted to Perfectual hospital.
Touka runs into Kuroda and gets a hold of the cloak and the hat. [still at question. seems there's much more.]
Boogiepop was born.
Boogiepop is hunting down Echoes.
light incident happens. [due to Echoes' death, i believe.]
Boogiepop hunts down the manticore (the Echoes copy.) [and eventually Echoes as well.]

:)

[GigaSheep]

Simple. That was the day Toka's split personality, Boogiepop, emerged... people are not born with a split personality; they don't suffer from them all along. Toka's close exposure to death 'flipped a switch' in her unstable mind, causing 'boogiepop' to emerge. Split personalities are often created by trauma in the real world. Plus, we know that Toka was already on the hospital because she was depressed/traumatized since she had been possessed by the fox spirit Panuru (See earlier posts)

[heart havok]

this still doesn't explain Boogiepop's "powers."

a 'simple' split personality does not have the power of the Shinigami. certainly, this could be explained by Toka's "evolving" but becoming Death doesn't settle well inside me as the simple "evolving," as are the other children.

this is the main thing that throws me apart from your theories on split personality... in my mind, Death isn't a simple split personality but rather, a super natural being.

[GigaSheep]

erm.... boogiepop *has* no powers!!!

boogiepop PHANTOM has powers... she puts the evolving kids in stasis (presumably with the threads from Jonouichi's spiders[ep2]), casts threads of light from her fingertips, teleports, etc...

but BOOGIEPOP just uses a harpoon thing mounted on her wrist, and does nothing impossible. what powers does she have? she never teleports or does anything out of the ordinary. panuru, who possibly inhabits the cloak (see earlier posts) is most likely supernatural...but that's it. boogiepop, being subconscious, fears nothing and therefore can fight the evils quite well. We know from various eps that the man-eaters rely on fear and hopelessness.

but what powers do you think boogiepop has? she is not supernatural. What in the show suggests to you that she is? She wears the death garb perhaps, and phantom says 'I believe you refer to me as death', but this does not mean she is an actual Shinigami; that's just what people think she is...

Plus, Toka is *NOT* evolved!!! that is why she cannot see the balloon in ep9 when on the way to Paisley Park with Akane...

I always thought that one of the main points of the show is that boogiepop is *not* supernatural/evolved/mutated etc. she is essentially the spark of unquestioning, subconscious existential optimism that exists (supressed or embraced) within all of us. In Toka, through trauma, this spark surfaces as a new personality, 'boogiepop', which rises to protect the world from stagnation and heartache...

[heart havok]

hmm... i still don't see why Toka's other personallity couldn't be a possession by Death.... but honestly, that's probably moreso me being attatched to believe the fantasy side of things moreso than the boring realistic. also, i never saw anything pointing towards that only evolved people saw the balloons. in fact, i don't recall any of those balloon swing kids being evolved, or anything pointing towards anything other than them simply being lost in sense of 'self'... i know Toka isn't evolved, that's why i quoted it. because i was comparing her possession of the Fox Spirit to the other childrens' evolving. Boogiepop, i believe to be supernatural {other than my wanting to believe Boogiepop to be death} because she knows things that i don't see reason to believe any human would know. perhaps i should just continue saving this until i rewatch the series again... or atLEAST until i'm more motivated to actually give a ---- to analyze what i'm saying. sorry, i'm no fun right now for analytical discussion. -_-

[GigaSheep]

It is very specifically mentioned that only the special kids can get the balloons. It is mentioned in both ep9 +10. As for the things Toka knows, these are the things she got from Panuru.

[heart havok]

yes, certainly special children. but no where to they say Evolved children.

[GigaSheep]

We know that the special children ARE the evolved children. The terms are interchangeable, I've seen some fansubs that even translate both the same way.

[heart havok]

that's not nearly convincing though.. fansubs aren't legit. simple termanology doesn't cancel out possibility of a seperate type of "special children" other than the evolved.

[GigaSheep]

perhaps, but i still think the evolved kids and the special kids are the same. the kids with poom-poom have powers- remember the freaking fireballs in ep10?

[random1377]

Ok, here's a question then... the original Panaru (let's call her Panaru 2, shall we?) says SHE'S not the original Panaru. When the NEW Panaru (Panaru 3... confused yet?) askes who the original Panaru is, Panaru 2 smiles and says, "That's a secret..."

So... who is Panaru 1?

If you're saying it's Boogiepop, that's not possible, since you said Toka was 'inhabited' when Panaru 2 died.



On a side note, it's questionable to say that Toka is not evolved. If she's simply possessed by Boogiepop, then you can't say she has multiple personalities.... and if she has multiple personalities, then she MUST be evolved -- because she can sense Manticore when he's nearby.

Boogiepop's got at least that power :P

[GigaSheep]

Read this thread from the beginning.

Panuru is not a person. Panuru is a fox-spirit from shinto mythology, whose significance i have already mentioned. This spirit possessed Toka, and is probably also the swirling aura we see in Boogiepop's cloak. I would venture to say that the 'sixth sense' is not Toka's: it is Panuru's. Notice that Toka only has this 'sense' when she is carrying around the cloak in her Spalding bag.

I'm not saying that Panuru IS Boogiepop. Read my other posts scattered on this board and it should clear things up. Do come back with questions.

N.B. Panuru and Boogiepop ARE related, and Boogiepop would not have arisen in Toka if she hadn't been possessed by Panuru. Note that Toka knows about Panuru, but not about Boogiepop.

[random1377]

So you're saying that Panaru is yet one more personality for Toka? That doesn't quite make sense. It's Boogiepop that we see in episode 12 going to find Manticore, and she's not wearing the cloak.

Furthermore, when the girl in ep 9 (pretty sure it's ep 9) sees the balloon, and Toka doesn't... Boogiepop does. She says, "Toka doesn't see it..." But SHE can.

It actually would make more sense to say Boogiepop IS Panaru... otherwise, well... Toka wouldn't get much time in her own body. ^_^

[GigaSheep]

Nononono :)

Panuru is NOT another personality of Toka. Panuru is a fox spirit. Panuru posessed Toka. Fox spirits are assumed to posses those suffering from madness and depression, or so goes the Shinto folk belief. We know what Panuru's World Love is, and so on. Panuru thus *influences* Boogiepop, but is not Boogiepop itself per se. toka + panuru + death = boogiepop. That's the basics.

I'm not saying Toka has to WEAR the cloak to find the Manticore. As in ep 12, she just has to have the BAG with cloak/'panuru' in it. Note that in ep5, we see that Toka got on the same train as Misuzu (her side is shown in ep3), but Toka did NOT have the bag (we are specifically shown that she left it at home). You will recall that on that train, the Manticore appeared to Misuzu in parallel... but Toka didn't have a clue.

In a WAY, Boogiepop is Panuru, but ONLY in the same way that the other girls who copied Panuru's name 'were' Panuru. It is the embodiment of the philosophy that is suggested by the name. Boogiepop is not Panuru the fox-spirit itself, nor is Toka.

As for the evolution, Toka is not evolved per se, but Boogiepop's birth is an 'evolution' of sorts. In that respect, Toka 'evolved' the new personality when exposed to death. But that doesn't mean that Boogiepop or Toka are ever really evolved: Boogiepop does NOT claim to see the balloon. It only says "Toka Miyashita cannot see the balloon". Toka's 'Boogiepop side' understands what is going on, but neither can actually see the balloon. Certainly, Toka Miyashita is not one of the hyper-evolved special children.

[heart havok]

as for the "special children"... i certainly recall that the children that PoomPoom does "effect" {for lack of better term} are certainly evolved.... BAR TWO: Saki Yoshizawa and Akane Kojima. i'm simply saying that the people don't HAVE to be evolved... PoomPoom doesn't work only on evolved people, as he focuses simply on people who have lost a part of themselves with their past. be it dreams, personallity traits, desires... et cetera. unless the film or novels prove otherwise, the Anime doesn't give us any reason to believe that the "special children" for PoomPoom have to be evolved. that's all i was discussing on that topic.



as for Toka, Boogiepop, and Panuru... i feel maybe i can contribute a slight bit of elaboration on the theory that may clear this up.

upon my recent reviewing of Boogiepop Phantom, i recalled a play in Kabuki theatre that we studied in my drama course. with my observations and GigaSheeps' theories in mind, i found relations to this play {i will post the name of it once i find it in my drama textbook}.. this play revolved around a "fox spirit" called Panuru possessing a person who is suffering loss. i doubt this is an odd coinsidence. of course, now, i understand the play that we were studying with a much more wholesome outlook... but in the meanwhile, i also feel i understand the nature of Boogiepop better.

the fox spirit, called Panuru, possesses those who are suffering depression. by possessing these people, the fox spirit can share its ways {or "beliefs"} with the person, thus aiding them in finding their own ways to look past their suffering and continue on with a positive life. Toka's way of looking past her suffering was by developing an alternate personality. this alternate personality becomes later known as "Boogiepop," who -in its own way- is doing what it feels it can to make the world a better place. thus case, in a sense, taking upon itself the role of Shinigami.

Toka is Toka.
"Death" is "Boogiepop."
"Boogiepop" is Toka's alternate personality, manifested by the TRUE beliefs of "Panuru" {as opposed to Misuzu Aritoh, who was -as stated by Boogiepop Phantom in Vol 03- untrue to Panuru's beliefs}.
"Panuru" is a myth.

"Boogiepop" is Toka, but Toka isn't "Boogiepop"







hope that helped. :)

[GigaSheep]

very nice. i agree with the boogiepop stuff 100%.

however, i don't really agree with the kid stuff. I think that the problem lies in the translation. I would have called the kids (those with "powers", like yoshiki, and those without, like Saki) all 'gifted' children. In some the gift seems supernatural, in others it doesn't. But mind-reading and piano playing are both gifts. These children all have 'talents' which are a result of their evolution. Suema is evolved, but she doesn't have any 'amazing' powers. (we know she's evolved because the killer targeted her and the commentary says so =P)

[heart havok]

i certainly agree with the term "gifted"... but all in all, we must keep in mind that the series only includes so much. for all we know; Akane, Saki, and Suema all DO have powers. like i said "unless the film or novels prove otherwise, the Anime doesn't give us any reason to believe that the "special children" for PoomPoom have to be evolved." certianly, it's possible they are all evolved. but there's nothing stated in the Anime that suggests that Saki and Akane were evolved.
the one thing that the other children AND Saki and Akane DO have in common, however, is that they have all put their dreams, desires, inspirations..etc... behind them.


::shrug:: damn we need the novels and film. -_-

[GigaSheep]

I do agree that much is clouded without the novels, but i still think we can equate evolution with the gifted children.

The way I see it, only the evolved people are capable of sensing the results of the evolution (in themselves, and in others). This is why yoshiki can read minds, saki can see the balloon, and suema can hear the memory music in the last episode. Whether or not they have 'powers' is beside the point.

my 2 cents...the follow-through:

Interesting point about Yoshiki- notice than when he reads minds at his friends' house, he sees that his friends (much like, presumably, all humans) are 'telepathically' conversing all the time without noticing it. Yoshiki can simply tap into this subconscious activity of theirs. This further suggests (as i hold elsewhere) that the evolved kids' only real power is to see/transpose what is already there: *everything happens, all of the time*. It's just that normal people can't tap into it but the special kids can. Whether or not this apparently turns the inherent ability into a 'power' depends on the individual's wishes. Jonouichi wants to be a hero, so he needs a power to help people. Suema just wants good grades. Saki, on the other hand, wants to erase what happened with her audition, and be appreciated as she was in her childhood. Yoshiki is insecure about his friends so he wants to know that they accept him. Ultimately, their wishes all come true. Even Saki and Yoshiki, if you think about it. After all: there is no wish that does not come true, remember? ;) It is this idea, in essence, that Poom-Poom uses as his final retaliation against Boogiepop's judgement before dissapearing in vol.10. Boogiepop criticizes Poom Poom (memory, illusion), but Poom Poom says that there is no reason to maginalize it just because it harms the present or seems to be 'bad' just because of what it may cause.

[heart havok]

those are all brilliant ideas... in theory.

but none the less, we must keep in mind that PoomPoom is "regret".... as well as these evolved children, normal humans regret to... i believe that is their reasoning if showing two normal children being drawn to PoomPoom {Saki and Akane}...

[GigaSheep]

of course normal people can feel regret. that is what i am saying; the evolved children don't see anything that isn't there...

at this point though, i'm still definite that special kids = evolved kids. after all, the series talks about the special kids being saved in geo city- and which kids are included? the oikawa kids! And they are most definitely evolved.

really i think you're getting confused by a translation issue. note that there is never any mention of 'evolved kids', for them to be differentiated from 'special kids'. they are always referred to as 'special kids' for lack of a better term.

[heart havok]

yes, i comprehend that.

i'm simply stating that the series doesn't give us any reason to believe that Saki and Akane are evolved in any way.

[GigaSheep]

it does. they can see poom poom and the balloons etc.

[heart havok]

..and no where does it say that only evolved people can see Poom Poom and the balloons.

in addition: Poom Poom is regret, one doesn't have to be evolved to have regret.

::continues running circles:: :)

[GigaSheep]

agreed, but you can have regret and not see poom poom. everyone in the city who felt regretful did not see him, that's for sure.

ultimately what i'm saying is the original japanese could JUST as well have translated 'special' kids as 'evolved' kids. both of the words in japanese use the 'shin' prefix, and i think there is an additional obvious story tie in as stated before. I think you are getting confused by the translators.

[heart havok]

i'm not quick to make my own assumptions. we can only decide for ourselves what meaning we find in the story by what they give us. certainly, perhaps the translators have done a terrible job in their translatioins... but it would be inaccurate to say i'm getting confused by the translations, as i am certainly correctly interpreting definition keyed to the appropriate word given. meanwhile, special or evolved is the least of my concerns. my main point of focus is that they give us two reasons to believe that "normal people" can see PoomPoom.

Akane and Saki. certainly, it's all possible they just didn't show us any evidence to believe these two may be evolved.. but with all they have given us in the series, Akane and Saki point towards the idea that PoomPoom isn't only for the evolved. along with these two, we even have the "not evolved" {as you had already stated yourself} Boogiepop whitnessing PoomPoom's existance.

as for people who regret but can't see PoomPoom, nothing points towards that. while nothing points towards Saki nor Akane being evolved, thus it seems more reasonable that these two {and Boogiepop even if you want to get technical} are the the "evidence" the writers have given to suggest that you don't have to be evolved to see PoomPoom. just because they don't clearly say "these people aren't evolved but see PoomPoom" doesn't mean that it's not greatly possible. besides, i can easily imagine them showing five extra characters without powers {just like Saki and Akane} seeing PoomPoom, and you'd come here saying those five people were evolved too just because they saw PoomPoom :p

[GigaSheep]

I thing the writers give us a very strong reason to believe they are evolved: they are 'special' children. We know this for sure because they can see the balloons. We don't disagree on this, right? We disagree about whether they are evolved. I think they are.

Aside from all my previously given reasons about why this is so, I have one thing to add. What else would 'special' mean? What makes Saki and Akane special? At the VERY least, all the evolved kids are special AS WELL, otherwise *Why* could Yoshiki see the Balloon!? He is clearly an evolved mind-reader, surely you can't disagree with that?

"ONLY the special children can see the balloon".

[heart havok]

yes, Yoshiki has nothing to do with this... i certainly know he's evolved {along with the child who conjures fire}.

i'm simply saying that Suema, Mamoru, Jonouchi, etc.. are "special children" because they are evolved.

while Saki and Akane are "special children" because they see PoomPoom and the balloons and the such.

just as someone in real life could be "special" because they are mentally ill or someone in real life could be "special" because they are gifted. simply because there are evolved people and two people who aren't shown as evolved doesn't mean that they have to be the same to both be called "special."

certainly, Akane and Saki aren't like everybody else, but they could have been chosen to see PoomPoom {technically they were, by Yoshiki}, that doesn't mean they HAVE to be evolved to be able to see him.

so if Saki and Akane are intended by the writers to be that proof of the difference between PoomPoom's "special" and evolution's "special," then what other proof is there for me to give you?

[GigaSheep]

I basically agree with everything you're saying, but i think the show is trying to say that all of those things, even normal talents and neuroses, are all results of evolution. It's only when the evolution goes out of control or someone cannot control their abilities that it results in madness or immolation or what have you.

[heart havok]

now THAT makes sense.. i was actually considering maybe that's what you meant after typing that post, but i needed to get to bed, thus didn't have time to mention that.

::stops running circles :)::

[Cookiepop]

Now does it all make sense? Think of all the implications! Notice that Panuru's philosophy and Boogiepop's go hand in hand (Boogiepop, unlike the Organization, is all about moving on. Just like Panuru's World Love...)

I don't think they do. The philosophy of Panuru was always one of world love, affirmation and acceptance. Boogiepop however is not about these things, otherwise Boogiepop would not go out and fight "enemies of the world".

In the show, Boogiepop was born when Panuru was exposed traumatically to death, as seen in ep12. She becomes an avenger that acts out Panuru's words in a violent way.

Boogiepop is born when when Miyashita Touka is exposed to the trauma of seeing Kuroda Shinpei die. Panuru doesn't factor in.

Panuru seems to have been an invention of the girl who would first be called Panuru (friend of Arito Misuzu and killed by Dr Kisugi) after her parents got caught up in some religion and paid no attention to their daughter. Panuru was a way of her coping with life, and explains why she actually has such a brief outlook on life (God is dead, etc).

At the end of vol12, Nagi has one last thing to tell Toka:"say hello to 'her' for me". This is most probably Panuru too! Toka knows about Panuru, but almost certainly does not know about Boogiepop... her split personality.

Kirima Nagi is telling Miyashita Touka to say to Akane Kojima for her (the girl Nagi saved in episode 11).

Plus, we know that Toka was already on the hospital because she was depressed/traumatized since she had been possessed by the fox spirit Panuru (See earlier posts)

Miyashita was not already in the hospital. She was out walking after a funeral and happened to stumble onto Kuroda Shinpei dying.

this still doesn't explain Boogiepop's "powers."

a 'simple' split personality does not have the power of the Shinigami. certainly, this could be explained by Toka's "evolving" but becoming Death doesn't settle well inside me as the simple "evolving," as are the other children.

this is the main thing that throws me apart from your theories on split personality... in my mind, Death isn't a simple split personality but rather, a super natural being.

It is my belief that while Boogiepop was psychological in origin, it has many supernatural powers (or powers that could be deemed such). There are two possibilities for this. Boogiepop once states (in the novels) that he quite likely a possibility of the world. In other words the world gave rise to him and Boogiepop in turn defends the world, but this world is centred around Miyashita Touka. Boogiepop mentions in the same novel that Boogiepop can use the strength humans keep in reserve to avoid exceeding the limits of their flesh. Therefore Boogiepop's powers quite likely come from inside Miyashita Touka. This is not an evolutiionary power as such (or not the same as the evolution such as Manaka) but rather every human has this power, and every human had the possibility of becoming Boogiepop. Miyashita Touka was the one in whom the possibility occurred. Now that Boogiepop resides inside Miyashita Touka, Boogiepop has access to all the strength she has that other humans keep in reserve.

Remember, a Shinigami is merely a personification of death, just as with all things. Much of our Grim Reaper imagery stems from the Black Plague. Thus Boogiepop can be a shinigami without necessarily being supernatural in origin.

erm.... boogiepop *has* no powers!!!

boogiepop PHANTOM has powers... she puts the evolving kids in stasis (presumably with the threads from Jonouichi's spiders[ep2]), casts threads of light from her fingertips, teleports, etc...

but BOOGIEPOP just uses a harpoon thing mounted on her wrist, and does nothing impossible. what powers does she have? she never teleports or does anything out of the ordinary.

Boogiepop is actually likely to be more powerful than Boogiepop Phantom. Boogiepop's powers include: incredible strength (can decapitate with a flick of the wrist and knock out whole gangs of enemies with single attacks), speed (Boogiepop once outran someone heading to the same location on a scooter, now that's either a record running speed or teleportation, and Boogiepop can dodge bullets), endurance, agility (bullet dodging), skill with weapons, etc. Boogiepop also has the supernatural ability of being able to sense distortions nearby and surface to confront them. It's not unknown for Boogiepop to confront someone with full knowledge of what they are trying to do without ever speaking to them. Boogiepop Phantom likely has all these powers plus the advantages of being a phantom in being able to teleport at the speed of light and take direct hits with no known effects. However being a phantom Boogiepop Phantom will be fundamentally weaker in all respects, and he even acknowledges this by calling himself Boogiepop Phantom out of respect.

I always thought that one of the main points of the show is that boogiepop is *not* supernatural/evolved/mutated etc. she is essentially the spark of unquestioning, subconscious existential optimism that exists (supressed or embraced) within all of us. In Toka, through trauma, this spark surfaces as a new personality, 'boogiepop', which rises to protect the world from stagnation and heartache...

Boogiepop is a possibility. The evolutions are other possibilities, they just happen to be called evolutions. Having a skill is a possibility. Some possibilities are more likely than others. So for instance its more likely that you'll be able to play the piano well than cast lightening from your hands. But in the end they are all possibilities. It's just the name that's different. This is what Poom Poom takes away from you. He takes away your possibility that resides in your inner child. And Boogiepop has no such dreams of saving the world from stagnation and heartache. Boogiepop simply has an enemy to face, a mission to complete, before dissapearing again. Boogiepop fundamentally changes nothing. In fact, Boogiepop prevents change, and is often found to be pessimistic in attitude with phrases such as "This world is filled with flaws." The only person to ever fully gain from Boogiepop's actions is Miyashita Touka who remains blissfully unaware of the horrific world around her.