Why is Gasaraki so fake?

[Sergeant Wittmann]

I'm serious, anyone who sees the military action in this show that knows anything about the military will either laugh his head off or fume.
Firstly, what was with that attack on Belgistan's capital? They sent a tank thrust against it! No serious commander would ever in a million years even DREAM of sending a tank column into a city without scouring the whole place with infantry and eliminating all enemies. Tactical doctrine states that such moves are suicidal, it's been proved time and again on the battlefield. People in the show made a huge deal out of the fact that the force was destroyed by TAs but infantry with rocket launchers or even satchel charges could've done the same. AND WHY DON'T THOSE DAMNED TAS SHOW UP ON NIGHT VISION????? Are they invisible? Do they have some sort of stealth capability? Is this ever even explained?
Because that's the only way that they could've avoided detection from all of the aircraft that were supporting the attack force in episode three. What, there was no air support like a REAL MILITARY would have? That's not very realistic now is it? And of course the enemy TAs had no trouble hitting the tanks who were in that highly realistic formation where they were all bunched together like cars in a parking lot. What? Tanks would never make such a formation? Well whoda thunk it?!
Well, this is what happens when someone ignores realism and throws in some token, phoney combat scenes to appease the masses. The fighting in Gasaraki is almost Rambo-esque! Racism also played a role. The Japanese still cannot believe that they lost to foreign barbarians like the Americans and so they sometimes throw scenes into anime where Americans either look stupid and inept, are blown to ----, or both. Kaiji Kawaguchi based his entire career thanks on this. I'd write about the "test" from episode 2 but I'm too pissed right now.

[Hiigaran]

I have this odd feeling that the director and writer of the show wasn't a military commander. Call me crazy...

[Sergeant Wittmann]

Steven Spileberg wasn't one either but at least he had the decency to check with professionals to verify the details in "Saving Private Ryan". Good characters and plot are a big part of what makes a thing like an anime or a movie great, but the details are also important.
The fact that the warfighting which is such an integral part of those first few episodes is handled so poorly shows me that the producers just wanted to get the project over with and didn't care that much about whether it was as good as possible. This impression may not be correct but that's what happens when someone slacks.
In conclusion, if something plays a crucial role in the plot, and it's done poorly, it has the potential to ruin the whole thing.

[Commander Fuyutsuki]

So, you're pretty much saying the military part of the story ruined all of the series?


Racism also played a role. The Japanese still cannot believe that they lost to foreign barbarians like the Americans and so they sometimes throw scenes into anime where Americans either look stupid and inept, are blown to ----, or both.

The part I found sad when watching Gasaraki is that Americans often act like they did in Gasaraki. This is not racism, or about making us look stupid because they lost a war with us decades ago. This is a matter of opinion, a matter of how other people perceive our actions. America does have a superiority complex, we view ourselves as having a better society and being more important than everyone else. Unfortunatly some people refuse to recognise this or brush it off as racism or jealousy of another country.

[Sergeant Wittmann]

If you think about it we are the most important country in the world. As a world superpower, we have the strongest economy and military. And our system of government is a damned good one too. Checks and balances, division of power, the constitution, and over 225 years of stability. How often have radical groups overthrown the government? How often has the military launched a coup de'tat? Americans have a lot to be proud of.

As to whether I think the "military" action in Gasaraki ruined it, I'm not sure yet. Everything else is pretty good, except for some voices in the dub (the dictator of Belgistan sounds like Fat Bastard). But the lack of realism makes it very difficult for me to like. And by Americans really acting the way they do in Gasaraki, do you mean militarily inept?

[Ajay]

Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
I'm serious, anyone who sees the military action in this show that knows anything about the military will either laugh his head off or fume.
Firstly, what was with that attack on Belgistan's capital? They sent a tank thrust against it! No serious commander would ever in a million years even DREAM of sending a tank column into a city without scouring the whole place with infantry and eliminating all enemies. Tactical doctrine states that such moves are suicidal, it's been proved time and again on the battlefield. People in the show made a huge deal out of the fact that the force was destroyed by TAs but infantry with rocket launchers or even satchel charges could've done the same. AND WHY DON'T THOSE DAMNED TAS SHOW UP ON NIGHT VISION????? Are they invisible? Do they have some sort of stealth capability? Is this ever even explained?
Because that's the only way that they could've avoided detection from all of the aircraft that were supporting the attack force in episode three. What, there was no air support like a REAL MILITARY would have? That's not very realistic now is it? And of course the enemy TAs had no trouble hitting the tanks who were in that highly realistic formation where they were all bunched together like cars in a parking lot. What? Tanks would never make such a formation? Well whoda thunk it?!
Well, this is what happens when someone ignores realism and throws in some token, phoney combat scenes to appease the masses. The fighting in Gasaraki is almost Rambo-esque! Racism also played a role. The Japanese still cannot believe that they lost to foreign barbarians like the Americans and so they sometimes throw scenes into anime where Americans either look stupid and inept, are blown to ----, or both. Kaiji Kawaguchi based his entire career thanks on this. I'd write about the "test" from episode 2 but I'm too pissed right now.



I agree with you on the most part. Gasaraki may seem realistic in some aspects, but the people who made it weren't exactly specialists in military doctorine (not that I am mind you). However, you have to admit, the Gasaraki handles the concept of mecha much better than other anime series.

Nonetheless, it was a TV show, and not a documentary on the real life applications of a modern mecha on the battlefield. You gotta give the guys a some leeway. Allthough a couple of exploding mecha would have been more interesting and more realistic at the same time.

Its also not as if American entertainment isn't chuck full of psuedo-scientific and wanna be technical jargon as well as loads of racial stereotypes.

I don't ever remember a US tank column actually ENTERING a city. I thiuk there was one time when the Japanese were reviewing a video footage by a chopper, where a group of TAs took out some AVFs and and later, the chopper in a city, but I don't know if they were American in orgin..... I guess they were.

Later on where the fakes totally demolished that group of APCs and tanks, it should be noted that they hadn't actually entered the city. They were waiting a distance, and getting ready to move in when the attack occured. Air support had been bombing the city, or doing something I guess. Does air support start attacking the enemy when they're that close to friendly uits?

Later on where the TAs wiped out that tank column, it should be noted that that was to prove the effectiveness of TAs against other armored vehicles. If the tanks had been accompanied by infantry, I would believe the TAs wouldn't have gone in without assistance as well. I don't know whether or not tanks ever line up in a row, but they obviously weren't expecting to even see the enemy, let alone be attacked at the time.


the fact that the tanks were deployed APCs probably indicated that they were going to release some infantry at a later point to assist the armored vehicles into the city.

The fact that the mecha couldn't be seen at first could probably be attributed to all that dust they kicked up before launching the missiles, which didn't travel in a straight arc, but seemed to come from behind the sand dunes, meaning the mecha probably used it as cover.

the real advantage of the mecha in the series doesn't lie totally in their abilities. They have that control vehicle that takes vast ammounts of info and data from sonar units, UAVs, and other sensors on the battlefield, so they basically know where the enemy is at ALL times and can coordinate their attacks accordingly. That's their secret: total overview of the combat area.

I bet if you took that command vehicle out, those TAs wouldn't be nearly as effective in urban combat. I think its the ammount of battlefield intelligence that the Japanese had, in addition to the versatility and advanced technology (armor at least) of the TAs that made them effective.

[Ajay]

Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
Steven Spileberg wasn't one either but at least he had the decency to check with professionals to verify the details in "Saving Private Ryan". Good characters and plot are a big part of what makes a thing like an anime or a movie great, but the details are also important.
The fact that the warfighting which is such an integral part of those first few episodes is handled so poorly shows me that the producers just wanted to get the project over with and didn't care that much about whether it was as good as possible. This impression may not be correct but that's what happens when someone slacks.
In conclusion, if something plays a crucial role in the plot, and it's done poorly, it has the potential to ruin the whole thing.



Of course, there were quite ALOt of scientific innacuracies in Jurassic Park and the Lost World, despite the fact that Spielberg had assistance from SEVERAL of the world's leading paleontologists.

There were many isntances where he said, "Make the dinosaur this big, fast, or give it this ability", just to make the movie entertaining.

The speed, intelligence, and size of the velociraptors. The frill, venom spoitting ability, and size of the dliophosaurus. The idea that a tyrannosaurs can only see you if you're moving. The size of the pachycephelasaurs. the hunting behavior of the Procompsagnathids. The chewing brachiosaur. All of these and many more concepts were contrary to evidence provided by the fossil record.

I spent the whole movie ranting about how unrealistic it was (at leat when I wasn't screaming my head off), but I had to remind myself that it wasn't a documentary. It was entertainment for people who didn't give a real flip either way.

[Sergeant Wittmann]

I haven't read up on the latest theories of paeleontology so I can't comment on what you said about Jurassic Park, but I will comment on the military.
First, I should discuss the use of tanks in battle. My history teacher, a retired army captain with combat experience, told me that the worst thing you could do with tanks is to move them into a hostile city. Tanks are made for fighting out in the open where their mobility will give them the advantage, not in cramped urban confines where troops could snipe at them with anti-tank weapons from buildings, alleyways, and even sewers. In the footage of that first assault, all we see are tanks. Myths about American military ineptitude to the side, practically everyone in the service (except maybe for sailors) knows the extreme folly of sending armor into urbanized terrain. And yes, it was mentioned several times that these were Americans.
Secondly, the TAs had UAVs and other things, but so does everyone else; especially America. Predator drones were used in the Kosovo war for reconnaissance and observation, as well as in Afghanistan. Some of their predecessors were used in Iraq but thye technology was still in its infancy and so they weren't that effective. We also have satellites, high-tech command and control units, special forces, and probably even things that we don't know about. The American forces would've had the same battlefield intelligence as TAs.
Thirdly, the tank unit waiting to enter the city. First of all, I've already mentioned the tremendous folly of entering cities with armor so I won't harp on that again. I'll harp on the lack of support instead. Every unit that enters combat, no matter what the specialty is, has access to either artillery, air, or armor support via radio.
The unit in question had none of these. Where were the gunship helicopters to knock out the TAs with hellfire missiles? What abut strike planes dropping bombs? Or artillery bombardents? In answer to your question, air support can be called in very close to friendly forces because of the accuracy of the pilots and their ground coordinators.
While we're at it, I should also mention the formation of the vehicles in question. You'll notice that they're all bunched up in a very close formation. Looks nice in parades, but a terrible practice in combat since one explosive could take out a number of units. They would be spread out more. They would also have hummvees or Bradleys on the flanks and perimeter as well as helicopters for security. They would've had LAVs if they were Marines. But none of these realistic things occurred. Instead, the tanks and IFVs huddled together like one big morsel of mecha-food and got eaten.
I know that there are racial stereotypes in American TV, it's just so galling to see the Japanese, who were such animals during World War II, take a superior stance when dealing with America and Americans. Sure, they managed to rape 20,000 women and kill 200,000 to 300,000 people in a six-week period in Nanking, and sure, they tested biological warfare agents on live human guinea pigs and became the first country to use modern biological warfare in anger; but America's still the badguy because we dropped nuclear bombs on them that wound up killing fewer people than a conventional invasion would've. Not to mention that we rebuilt their country after the war using billions of our taxpayer dollars and played a major role in their defense during the Cold war. Why am I the only one who cares that the stance taken in some anime is patent racism against the American people?

[AchtungAffen]

Originally posted by Commander Fuyutsuki
So, you're pretty much saying the military part of the story ruined all of the series?



The part I found sad when watching Gasaraki is that Americans often act like they did in Gasaraki. This is not racism, or about making us look stupid because they lost a war with us decades ago. This is a matter of opinion, a matter of how other people perceive our actions. America does have a superiority complex, we view ourselves as having a better society and being more important than everyone else. Unfortunatly some people refuse to recognise this or brush it off as racism or jealousy of another country.

Well, yes, as with the Juan the alien american joke, or like the guy who asked me (when I was in San Francisco) if I could see the moon in the southern latitudes of Argentina. Or worst, once I was asked by an american if in my country there were still Indian Raids where they took over cities to loot and burn. I had to tell him yes, and that I was in the states escaping those savages.

[death]

and did he beleve you?

[Sergeant Wittmann]

Originally posted by AchtungAffen


Well, yes, as with the Juan the alien american joke, or like the guy who asked me (when I was in San Francisco) if I could see the moon in the southern latitudes of Argentina. Or worst, once I was asked by an american if in my country there were still Indian Raids where they took over cities to loot and burn. I had to tell him yes, and that I was in the states escaping those savages.


Ha ha ha! I hope you don't think we're all so dense. Stupidity transcends nationality, religious extremism being the best proof of this. I'm sure some Argentines think that eagles dive underwater like penguins. I will admit, though, that American public education is on the rocks; primarily because locally elected school boards suck. And so does Gasaraki.

[AchtungAffen]

Oh don't worry. At the beginning I hadn't a good image of Americans until I started learning classical guitar and met an American who lives here who dirtied his hands working in vineyards down in Mendoza, did every kind of thing, and even learnt spanish from zero, besides of being a nice guy. I commited the crime of generalizing before. But I bet you there are more monkey-minded people here than in the states. The evidence of this is the one I cannot name (Minim I shall call him) and all his offspring. You're lucky you have schoolboards. Our schools don't even have lockers (only those private expensive ones). And let's don't speak about colleges. There is no notion of what a campus is here.

[Sergeant Wittmann]

I take it "Minim" is a politician of some sort.

[AchtungAffen]

try changing the vowels (the same one for the 2 places) and look in the internet, you may get him. But his name is bad luck, for example, there was a famous speed-boat racer here. He took the unnamable for a ride, and the next race, he lost his arm. That's just one of all the bad luck things the unnamable has caused.

[Fred]

I have to agree that Gasaraki is not even close to the real thing. I still get a laught when they said the "US Royal Air Force". Another thing that they got wrong was the rank. They name a three star general a colonel. A three star general will never go into a combat zone. They are too important to be in the front line. God forbid they get capture by the enemy.

You will never see tanks pack so close to each other as we seen in Gasaraki. They will get rape by artillery or air power. In combat operation, tanks separated from each other by 500 to 1000 meters.

Tanks are best use in wide open space where they can take advantage of their speed and armor.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
Secondly, the TAs had UAVs and other things, but so does everyone else; especially America. Predator drones were used in the Kosovo war for reconnaissance and observation, as well as in Afghanistan. Some of their predecessors were used in Iraq but thye technology was still in its infancy and so they weren't that effective. We also have satellites, high-tech command and control units, special forces, and probably even things that we don't know about. The American forces would've had the same battlefield intelligence as TAs.


Let me add something to this. The US military place intelligence first and foremost. If intelligence cannot get by air (spy plane, drone, satellites, etc) then they will send in the Special Forces. All US Special Forces are train in recon and most of the time they are use as recon units.

It would be interesting to see this fall or next spring when we invade Iraq if the military power to be would send troops in urban areas or just use airpower to destroy military infrastructure that are in the city. They won’t send it armor in urban areas that is for sure.

[Sergeant Wittmann]

Thank god the Gasaraki people aren't in charge of the military or we would already have lost... Every single war we've ever fought in.

[Fred]

In fairness Gasaraki is no more fake then all the anime that depicted military combat. From Gundam to NGE they are all fakes. Even Hollywood movies never get it right. What funny about this is that there are people actually trying to defend the “realistic” of anime combat. It is truly hilarious reading posts that defend anime as “realistic”. This also include Hollywood movies especially gunfights.

There are people actually thinks what is in anime or on Hollywood movies are real. It is truly sad to see people that cannot tell between fiction and reality.

[cool2burn]

Are you in the Military because i AM and i think they did a very good job on the series! It is very realistic. I mean even when they were in the desert the by peddle weapons were breaking down cuz of the sand. This si the same problem they were having in Desert storm. But owe well yahn

[Hiigaran]

The principle here is this: You have to give the people who worked on this series credit for simply trying to make it realistic at all. They didn't have to make it as rrealistic as they did even, in fact I could see how this series could have become another Gundam Wing. Luckily it wasn't that bad in its display of combat situation. Granted tactically, they made some obvious and glaring errors. But when compared to Evangelion or a similar series, it looks like Rainbow Six sitting next to Doom.

[Kizzim]

Umm.. where do you get yer information that tanks cant roll into major cities? Patton did it in WWII, in desert storm we did, so did the allied forces. When we took one of the last stronghold cities in Desert storm (cant remember the name) we let the Kuwait army with their tanks roll in infront of us while we gave support from the outside. The same happened in Gasaraki.

I thought Gasaraki was a brilliant military political thriller. The point of the series wasnt the mecha, but rather the political battle. The main character wasnt even the mecha pilot, but the oldest brother.

[AchtungAffen]

I'm not in the military nor nothing, but still I think what Sergeant is telling is true. You just cant make all the tanks rampage in one city as an unstoppable leviathan, cuz you're running the risk of the tanks being destroyed by minor weapons, like home made bombs (remember that molotov cocktails with acid were used to pierce armors, or small explosives to immobilize tanks). I don't know if any of you played those famous games "Close Combat". Try there to send your tanks in pack into an urban area, you'll see that none of them will come back.

[cool2burn]

I doubt a home made bomb would even scratch a tank a rpg probbly wouldn't make a dent!

[Kizzim]

A RPG cant take out a tank, not a M1A1, not even a bradley fighting vehical. Hell my friends family when they lived in South America had a bullet proof/rpg proof 4runner. If they can make a 4 runner be able to take a rpg, then tanks have no problem.

[cool2burn]

Originally posted by AchtungAffen
I'm not in the military nor nothing, but still I think what Sergeant is telling is true. You just cant make all the tanks rampage in one city as an unstoppable leviathan, cuz you're running the risk of the tanks being destroyed by minor weapons, like home made bombs (remember that molotov cocktails with acid were used to pierce armors, or small explosives to immobilize tanks). I don't know if any of you played those famous games "Close Combat". Try there to send your tanks in pack into an urban area, you'll see that none of them will come back.

Games and real life are completely different!

[AchtungAffen]

Theres the weakspot of tanks. I really don't know the name of the pieces, but those wheels that rotate the band wich is the tanks mobility capacity. Only breaking that band or damaging one of the sprocks out there to immobilize a tank. And it can be done with small explosives. I don't know if you remember 'Saving Private Ryan', when the american soldier tried to plant a bomb besides the tank but blows in his hand? Well, after that another guy tried again and got to cut that band in the tank with that sock explosive, wich wouldn't damage the tanks armor though.

I also understand that games and the real thing are different things, but it gives you an idea on how a few guys scattered in an urban wreckage can take out as many tanks as they come. When you play it you would understand better what I'm saying. It's supposed to be a combat simulator, not a 'doom' like game.

[cool2burn]

Originally posted by AchtungAffen
Theres the weakspot of tanks. I really don't know the name of the pieces, but those wheels that rotate the band wich is the tanks mobility capacity. Only breaking that band or damaging one of the sprocks out there to immobilize a tank. And it can be done with small explosives. I don't know if you remember 'Saving Private Ryan', when the american soldier tried to plant a bomb besides the tank but blows in his hand? Well, after that another guy tried again and got to cut that band in the tank with that sock explosive, wich wouldn't damage the tanks armor though.

I also understand that games and the real thing are different things, but it gives you an idea on how a few guys scattered in an urban wreckage can take out as many tanks as they come. When you play it you would understand better what I'm saying. It's supposed to be a combat simulator, not a 'doom' like game.

All your references are from WWII which was a long long time ago the us military has come a long way since then and our tanks do not go down so easy and they are still moblie if the track is broke which also isnt such a easy thing to do. Plus the Military dosent let anyone know how advanced the weapons are becauser it would kill the element of surprise.

[Fred]

Originally posted by cool2burn
I doubt a home made bomb would even scratch a tank a rpg probbly wouldn't make a dent!

*sigh*

Oh they can and will destroy a tank, no doubt about that.


*************************************************

Israeli tanks leave Ramallah as U.S. envoy visits
March 14, 2002 Posted: 11:28 PM EST (0428 GMT)


RAMALLAH, West Bank (CNN) -- More than 40 Israeli tanks and armored vehicles began pulling out of Ramallah late Thursday, hours after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon ordered them to redeploy "because the mission has been completed successfully."

Palestinian sources reported the tanks and armored personnel carriers were withdrawing from the West Bank town in all directions.


Shortly before the withdrawal, Palestinian sources said two tanks were hit by Palestinian-fired rocket-propelled grenades. The Israel Defense Forces would neither confirm nor deny the report.


The pullback came as Sharon hosted U.S. Middle East envoy Anthony Zinni at his Jerusalem home. Zinni arrived Thursday on orders from President Bush to try to get Israelis and Palestinians back to the negotiating table and restore calm after 17 months of fighting.

Zinni earlier met with representatives of the European Union and Russia, who have been trying to work out a cease-fire on the ground. "It was a very good meeting," one source familiar with the session said.

Palestinian Authority officials had said they would not take part in any peace talks until Israel withdraws its forces from the West Bank and Gaza, where Israel in the past week has carried out its largest offensive since the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. About 20,000 Israeli troops moved into Palestinian territories in the West Bank and Gaza starting Monday.

George Mitchell -- the former U.S. senator whose commission laid the groundwork for an immediate cease-fire followed by a cessation of Jewish settlement construction in the territories and the resumption of peace talks -- said it is imperative for both sides to bring an end to the cycle of violence.

"There isn't any way out of this on the current track and they've got to find a way to get back to the negotiating table," Mitchell said.

Nabil abu Rudeineh, a spokesman for Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, said Israeli forces must first withdraw from the Palestinian territories if there are to be peace talks.

"Without their immediate withdrawal, there won't be any connection or any meeting with any Israeli before they stop their aggression and their withdrawal from all the cities, including Bethlehem and Ramallah and the Gaza cities," said Rudeineh.

Sharon's office issued a statement ordering Israeli commanders to "redeploy in the Ramallah area because the mission has been completed successfully."

The statement said Sharon is satisfied with the mission, what was accomplished and the way Israeli troops conducted themselves. He said he hoped that completing the mission would "enable us to go forward with the diplomatic effort to reaching an immediate, total cease-fire."

The Israeli government has said its operations in the Palestinian territories were intended to attack what they called the "terrorist infrastructure" endangering Israelis. Palestinians have said many innocents have been killed in the operations and that the military campaign itself is a form of terror.

Meanwhile, violence continued Thursday in Gaza and the West Bank, with deaths on both sides. In incidents in Tulkarem and Ramallah, seven Palestinians were killed Thursday. Three Israeli soldiers were killed in an explosion in Gaza.

Brigades leader killed
Palestinian security sources said an Israeli helicopter struck a farm near Tulkarem, killing a leading Palestinian militant and another man. They identified the dead as Mutasem Makhluf -- the leader in Tulkarem of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a military wing of Arafat's Fatah movement -- and Maher Bilbesi.

The Israeli army claimed responsibility for Mutasem's killing, saying he was responsible for preparing and carrying out attacks against Israelis.

Early in the day, Palestinian security forces said three other Palestinians had been killed in an exchange of gunfire with Israeli troops.

Later, those same sources said the shell of a burned-out car had been found in Balaa north of Tulkarem. The sources said three or four Palestinians believed to have been in the car were kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, blindfolded and taken away in Israeli army jeeps.

The IDF said the men were members of Tanzim, another military wing of Fatah, and were arrested after authorities discovered their car was loaded with explosives. The IDF detonated the vehicle.


In Gaza, meanwhile, three Israeli soldiers died when a massive explosion went off beneath their Merkava tank on the Netzarim road, the IDF said.

The blast was the second time Palestinians have been able to blow up a Merkava, which is considered one of the world's best-protected. Palestinians pierced the Merkava's armor for the first time in a mid-February attack.

The IDF said one Israeli soldier was killed by the blast, and two others burned to death inside the tank. Two soldiers were injured in the explosion and evacuated, the IDF said.

[Note from fred: It was a home made bomb planted on the road. The blast penetrated the armor and kill the crew inside.]

Earlier, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society, five Palestinians died in clashes with Israeli troops in Ramallah -- including three Palestinian National Security force members and two civilians. The Red Crescent said 10 other Palestinians were injured in the exchange of gunfire.

In Washington on Wednesday, President Bush expressed strong hope that his Middle East envoy will succeed in bringing Israelis and Palestinians closer to the negotiating table, and delivered measured criticism of Israel's military crackdown in the West Bank and Gaza.

"I understand someone trying to defend themselves and to fight terror, but the recent actions aren't helpful," Bush said.

Bush said Zinni's goal is to achieve the conditions necessary for a cease-fire required by the Tenet plan.

Zinni has "a lot of work to do, but if I didn't think he would make progress, I wouldn't have asked him to go."

[Fred]

Originally posted by cool2burn
Are you in the Military because i AM and i think they did a very good job on the series! It is very realistic. I mean even when they were in the desert the by peddle weapons were breaking down cuz of the sand. This si the same problem they were having in Desert storm. But owe well yahn


retired

[Sergeant Wittmann]

Originally posted by Kizzim
Umm.. where do you get yer information that tanks cant roll into major cities? Patton did it in WWII, in desert storm we did, so did the allied forces. When we took one of the last stronghold cities in Desert storm (cant remember the name) we let the Kuwait army with their tanks roll in infront of us while we gave support from the outside. The same happened in Gasaraki.


Yes, they did, but only AFTER resistance therein was snuffed out. Anybody who sends tanks into close quarters will suddenly find themselves short of tanks in the worst possible way.
Affen is definitely right about the weakness of tank sprockets (the proper name being "suspension"). Historically, anybody who didn't have the means to actually destroy tanks simply immobilized them through a well-place hit in the suspension.
And contrary to popular belief, small bombs could be devastating to tanks when used properly. A grenade in the suspension, a molotov cocktail down the crew hatch, there are many ways to deal with tanks. Even though tanks are well-armored, they can't have armor everywhere. That's why tanks are used out in the open, where they can see any sleazy Taliban slinking about with cherry bombs and gun them down.
I also strongly doubt that a tank could move more than a few inches without treads. I know the pic is small, but look at the wheels on this German Leopard tank. Notice how smooth they are, they would have no traction whatsoever. That could never move 60 tons of metal.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Kizzim
Umm.. where do you get yer information that tanks cant roll into major cities? Patton did it in WWII, in desert storm we did, so did the allied forces. When we took one of the last stronghold cities in Desert storm (cant remember the name) we let the Kuwait army with their tanks roll in infront of us while we gave support from the outside. The same happened in Gasaraki.

Here we go again. Didn't we go through this in another thread? I never realized you where in the military and in Desert Storm. I never said that tanks never enter cities in WWII. Most of the time these cities were level to the ground or were taken by infantry units before the tanks arrived.

One small fact you did not mention is that most of these Kuwait’s cities where deserted when allied troops enter. The major tanks battles were in the desert and there was only one tank battle I know of in a small town.

It has been such a long time since I study Desert Storm.

Here a quick summary of the war.

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Den/7664/desertstorm.html



I thought Gasaraki was a brilliant military political thriller. The point of the series wasnt the mecha, but rather the political battle. The main character wasnt even the mecha pilot, but the oldest brother.

It was boring to me. They all talk and whine a lot.

[Fred]

Originally posted by cool2burn


All your references are from WWII which was a long long time ago the us military has come a long way since then and our tanks do not go down so easy and they are still moblie if the track is broke which also isnt such a easy thing to do. Plus the Military dosent let anyone know how advanced the weapons are becauser it would kill the element of surprise.

You will never see a tank division going through a known mine field without taking out the mines first. The top and underbellies are the weakness part on a tank. That’s including the treads. If the treads are destroyed might as well get out and walk.

The US military is phasing out tanks in favor of light armor wheel vehicles. I don’t even think there is even an M1 tank in Afghanistan but there are a lot of light armor wheel vehicles that are station there.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Hiigaran
The principle here is this: You have to give the people who worked on this series credit for simply trying to make it realistic at all. They didn't have to make it as rrealistic as they did even, in fact I could see how this series could have become another Gundam Wing. Luckily it wasn't that bad in its display of combat situation. Granted tactically, they made some obvious and glaring errors. But when compared to Evangelion or a similar series, it looks like Rainbow Six sitting next to Doom.

Well they didn't try hard enough. How can they get confuse a colonel with a three star general. If they can’t get that right what is the chance of they getting the combat right? Gasaraki make the US military look stupid and worst they are under the command of the UN, which will never happen. We destroy the fourth largest military in the world (Desert Storm) in 43 days (if I remember it correctly) and we didn't need macha to do it.

People shouldn’t try to defend anime as “realistic”. Everyone knows it is not “realistic” (I hope) and defending it just make it silly.

[Fred]

This is a long read. I finally found this article on the web. The Washington Post did it a while back. It is a simulation to train US troops with tanks in an urban hostile area. It is a great read and I bold the most important part that is relevant for this discussion. I really wanted to find this article since the days I was debating Skywalkre.

I could have gotten the same article at the Washington Post website but I have to dish some money out to get it.


**********************************************
http://206.181.245.163/ebird/e20011226trial.htm

Washington Post
December 26, 2001
Pg. C1

Trial By Fire

Bad Guys 1, Army 0: Troops Learn Lessons From Losing A War Game

By Richard Leiby, Washington Post Staff Writer


FORT POLK, La. - Bing Crosby croons "Winter Wonderland" over loudspeakers as American tanks clank into the smoke-choked slum, their machine guns chattering. "Stop shooting!" women scream. "Don't hit us! Help!"

It's a trap. As the civilians signal surrender from the windows of a squat gray building, enemy forces on the back porch have set up a missile launcher to blow up the Bradley Fighting Vehicles and Abrams tanks as they come into range. Meanwhile, insurgents in the streets are using other civilians as shields and tossing satchel-charge explosives onto the tanks.

This is not a good situation, and it's about to get worse. After an all-night march through the pouring rain and a devastating attack by a terrorist truck bomber, the foot soldiers of the Army's 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Division, are -- how to put it politely? -- dragging their sorry butts. They're way behind schedule.

"Still no infantry," groans a senior Army officer surveying the battlefield. "We'll lose all the tanks if they don't get up here."

He's right. And when they finally arrive to "liberate" the town, the straggling American platoons face slaughter. Showing no mercy, the national radio station deploys a loathsome weapon over its loudspeakers: a Christmas chestnut by Alvin and the Chipmunks.

Good ships and good guns are simply good weapons, and the best weapons are useless save in the hands of men who know how to fight with them.

-- President Theodore Roosevelt, message to Congress, December 1901

"It's a great training day!" proclaims the defeated general as the simulated gunfire dies down and remnants of the 1st Brigade call it quits. "A wonderful event."

A one-star banty rooster in camo, Brig. Gen. William Brandenburg puffs an after-action cigarette and spins for reporters about the valuable lessons learned from losing a war game. There are plenty of lessons for him and the nearly 3,000 troops from Fort Lewis, Wash., who deployed to the swampy Louisiana pinewoods to engage in the most challenging combat exercises this side of Tora Bora.

The battle zone at Fort Polk's Joint Readiness Training Center covers 100,000 acres, with its own airfield and a $13 million mock town that includes a tunnel system and 29 buildings of cinder block and plywood. The buildings harbor snipers, civilians, irregulars and terrorists in a lethal mix of shifting alliances that simulates the tactical tests of Vietnam, Somalia and Afghanistan rolled into one. Third World conditions are replicated down to the goats, geese and gawking video jockeys who try to snag sound bites on the battlefield.

The enemy is role-played by a regiment of select soldiers based at Fort Polk. These guys help to train the elite U.S. Special Operations forces in urban warfare. Their arsenal includes simulated chemical and biological weapons, sprayed from planes or put into water supplies. They tend to win.

Officials say all this is good practice as America's conventional troops face two major tasks: the ongoing war against terrorism, and the hoped-for transformation of the Army into a more versatile and nimble fighting force. "You are operating in an environment where the norms are not normal, so you are constantly adapting," says Brandenburg.

At least that's the idea for the visiting forces. They're urged to innovate and discard the rule book to better prepare for a post-Cold War world in which armies no longer predictably face off with columns of troops and heavy armor. Today's foes are more likely to apply "the asymmetrics of international terrorism," as Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, the Army's chief of staff, puts it.

Translation: They don't fight fair. They often hide among civilians. They must be hunted down, door to door or cave to cave.

While U.S. forces were savoring the initial taste of victory in Afghanistan, the units sent to train here this month learned firsthand how hard it is to win without the benefit of massive air support or a surrogate native army to blaze the way. As a two-week exercise proved, even phony battles tightly engineered with laser guns and Hollywood-style pyrotechnics don't unspool according to plan.

"As they say, 'Stuff happens,' " quoth Brandenburg. "Fog and friction -- and the enemy gets a vote."

The bad guys here are outnumbered 6-to-1 but enjoy a huge advantage: They're bunkered in an urban area and nobody is raining smart bombs on them. The Americans must strive to avoid collateral damage, just as they would in, say, Kabul.

"For some opponents, mere punishment from afar is not enough," Shinseki wrote in a recent white paper, alluding to the limits of air power and the need for "in the mud" infantry training. "With these adversaries, the only way to guarantee victory is to put our boots on his ground, impose ourselves on his territory, and destroy him in his sanctuaries."

There's nothing new about that idea -- or about sinking black boots into the sand and mud here. Sixty years ago, during the famed "Louisiana Maneuvers" staged at Fort Polk and other local bases, hundreds of thousands of troops trained for the ground war in Europe. Gen. George C. Marshall said he'd rather work out the snafus in Louisiana than overseas.

What's fairly new are the acronyms everybody tosses around here: MOUT, for military operations on urbanized terrain; MILES, for multiple integrated laser engagement system, which simulates the effects of real munitions and ammo; GPS, for the global positioning system many soldiers rely upon to orient themselves along with NODs, their Night Observation Devices . . . and of course there's the huge, computer-dominated AAR theater, where data are fed to plot the movements -- and mistakes -- of the training units, for analysis in after-action reviews.

In the battle zones, more than 1,000 video cameras are recording everything. Imagine all the high-tech Big Brotherism of "The Truman Show," plopped down in west-central Louisiana. It's been an economic boon for nearby Leesville, where the only other bright spot is the 24-hour Wal-Mart. The locals appreciate being hired as COBs, as the role-playing (and ham-acting) civilians on the battlefield are known.

The Army says it expects future combat to unfold in shantytowns similar to the complex here named Shughart-Gordon, in honor of Delta Force commandos Randy Shughart and Gary Gordon, who died on the streets of Mogadishu, Somalia, in 1993 trying to rescue a downed helicopter pilot. "The streets were a kill zone," Mark Bowden wrote in his book "Black Hawk Down." "Survival meant moving like your hair was on fire."

That's exactly the ambiance trainers try to create in "The Box," as they often call Shughart-Gordon. Another nickname is "The Meat Grinder."

"It puts you in a real-world situation," says Command Sgt. Maj. Carlton Dedrich of the 1st Brigade. At age 41, he lists Grenada, Panama and the Persian Gulf among his deployments, but for many of his young troops, this game is the closest they've come to combat. In the days leading up to the climactic battle, they set up field headquarters and hospitals, negotiate with local leaders, scout targets, endure ambushes and slog for miles through swampland in the push to breach the concertina wire surrounding The Box.

The players carry sealed "casualty tags" that inform them of their fates after they've been hit by a laser. The dead are out of the game. The wounded must be treated or evacuated. "You cannot use left arm. Proceed on your own to a casualty collection point," instructs the card for a one-inch penetrating wound.

"It doesn't give them the horror" of real war "but it gives them the stress of it," Dedrich says.

His face painted into a menacing mask of black and green, Dedrich looks like he could have stepped from the old comic book "Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos." He prowls the humid tent headquarters the night before the battle, anxiously pulling on his fingers. Dedrich knows his troops will benefit from this game, but he worries about over-reliance on high-tech gizmos: "We've got to remember, too, that war is a dirty business."

"With all the technical stuff, all the digitize this and that, if we're not careful we're going to lose our warrior spirit. We're going to have commanders who think it's more important that Private Smith is really good with his computer rather than Private Smith is really good with his weapon."

Now he's wound up so tightly he seems to vibrate. His eyes are radioactive. To him this really is no game.

"When you fight a war against terrorism or any kind of war, there are two rules," the sergeant major declares. "The first rule is: Young men and women fight and they die. The second rule is: You cannot change the first rule."

All our ignorance brings us closer to death.

-- T.S. Eliot, quoted at the start of the movie "Black Hawk Down"

It's approaching midnight, and most of the revolutionaries are blissfully sacked out in their sniper posts, certain the U.S. forces won't reach the Meat Grinder before dawn. They know this because they've captured some scouts, who quickly yielded their radios, including "the nets," or codes. (One prisoner gave up his company's codes for a Mountain Dew, confides an enemy soldier. "Smoke his ass for that one!")

So now, in their dingy basement command center, revolutionary army radiomen are monitoring every movement made by the Blue Forces, or BLUFOR, as the Americans are known in this exercise. Despite being outnumbered, enemy commandos have already eliminated half of BLUFOR's tanks and captured a helicopter. They've lobbed mortars at locations helpfully announced over the 1st Brigade commander's radio. One such attack "killed" 27 BLUFOR troops and they never caught on that their radio signals were being intercepted.

"You've got to put a positive spin on this," requests Command Sgt. Maj. Tim Green. "Every unit that comes through here, it's easy to embarrass them. What we tell you now isn't peculiar to this brigade."

Green, 42, is a wry Long Islander who likes to quote Machiavelli and Clausewitz, and bears a glancing resemblance to the musician Sting. He works as an "observer/controller," one of the all-seeing Big Brothers who constantly monitor the war game's progress.

They can even play God, bringing dead troops and equipment back to life. It's called "reconstituting." The observers/controllers restore the equilibrium if, as often happens, the Blue Forces are getting hammered so badly that they won't complete their mission of reaching Shughart-Gordon.

"There's no training value when the key leaders are all dead and there are not enough survivors left to do anything," Green says.

Sure, it's artificial, but it's still a great way to teach infantry troops strategy and tactics "with no air power to make it easy, no Air Force blowing everything to hell en route."

For officers, "It's very easy to sweep your arm across a map and say, 'I want to conquer this,' " Green notes. But for enlisted guys, including those low-crawling grunts out there in the rain tonight, it's never that simple.

Count him among the skeptics when it comes to lofty talk of transformation, which proposes a sweeping change in Army culture to create lighter, more rapidly deployable combat brigades for the 21st century, networked by computers and satellites. It means to empower the ranks to make decisions on the fly.

"Transformation has been going on since we were cavemen," the sergeant major says, dismissively eyeing the array of video screens in the ultra-modern observation theater. "We just put a new name on it."

The muddy-boots soldiers seem to prefer the transforming power of "hooah," a term of art that only resonates if you're in the Army. Sample use by Green: "He takes risks and thinks he's hooah, but he's not as hooah as he thinks he is."

Trained as a Ranger, Green is old-school Army. He trusts in compasses, maps and ropes. Fieldcraft. Counting paces. Using your God-given eyeballs, not GPS.

"We don't spend enough time in the field anymore," he laments. "There's a lot of things we used to do that, as we have evolved, we don't do anymore."

Things like carefully observing the terrain. Or noting how swiftly a creek is rising because of the rain.

That's exactly what the Blue Force has failed to do tonight: reconnaissance on the creek. That's why a lot of them are going to get killed, even before they reach the Meat Grinder.

Institutions don't transform; people do. Platforms and organizations don't defend this nation; people do. . . . Without people in the equation, transformation and readiness are little more than academic exercises.

-- Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki, Nov. 8, 2001

It's 3:30 a.m. inside the observation theater, 72 degrees and fluorescent. Outside, it's chilly, blustery and wet -- and the misery for the Blue Forces is just beginning. An entire BLUFOR company, more than 100 men, has stalled at Bird's Creek, screwing up the operation plan. If they can't cross the creek, there's no way they can hit the wire before dawn.

Yesterday a Humvee could have easily forded the stream, but now the water has swollen to four or five feet deep, with swift currents. The company has to slog around for hours to find a bridge. When the troops finally reach it, the rebels stage a drive-by attack and deploy a truck bomb, inflicting serious casualties.

"Alpha Company is down to a platoon and lost its commander," reports an observer/controller. "Bravo Company also lost men."

Brig. Gen. Brandenburg, the Blue Forces honcho from Fort Lewis, arrives for an update, scanning the monitors, maps and computers aglow in the observation theater. "I would not have thought that creek would be as deep as it is," he sighs. "And it's started raining again. That's not surprising."

Yep, it rains a lot here -- nearly 60 inches so far this year, says the local paper.

But no BLUFOR scouts took a look-see at Bird's Creek. And the engineers didn't bring ropes or other equipment that would have helped get the troops across the water.

Around 5 a.m., another general marches in, straight from Central Casting: Chuck Swannack Jr., the two-star bull moose who commands the training center.

An aide trails him everywhere, carrying a Thermos of fresh coffee.


Gazing at the blue clusters on a big illuminated map, Swannack diagnoses a looming disaster at the gates of Shughart-Gordon:

"If the tanks go through there without the infantry securing 'em, the tanks are gonna be satchel-charged, just like back in World War II."

Despite improved technology, the soldier's fundamental mission remains the same: close with and destroy the enemy or compel him to surrender.

-- Army Field Manual 1

Shortly after 10 a.m., the first tank plows into the village, smashing a picket fence next to a church cemetery. A second Abrams hits a mine, and fleet-footed enemy commandos easily pick off several more tanks with satchel bombs. The armor indeed arrived separate from the infantry -- a huge tactical blunder.

The loudspeakers are pumping "Wild Wild West" as things go to heck in Shughart-Gordon. The Meat Grinder is living up to its reputation. When the infantry finally flows in, the Blue Force's smoke bombs fail to provide cover because the wind has shifted. Only about 70 of the BLUFOR soldiers -- of the planned 300 -- have reached the town. Even fewer survive to go door-to-door, laser-gunning the enemy.

By 11:10 the commanders call an end to the exercise. Sure, there were problems with "the linkage, the coordination and synchronization," says Brandenburg. But he believes the training encourages his men to improvise. To be creative. He praises his troops' persistence in fighting what he calls "a very thinking enemy." "This is a good beginning for their transformation."

He yells a hearty hooah to participants.

Everybody tries to feel good, especially on the defeated side. Army public affairs officers won't provide final casualty tallies, saying it's not about numbers and keeping score, it's about learning.

But a group of bad guys, gathered near the tanks they satchel-bombed into submission, say those Americans never seem to learn. Sgt. Thomas Turcol says he has been through 30 of these exercises and the Blue Forces always fight by the book. That's the problem.

"The main reason why BLUFOR loses every time is because they are more concerned with what the book says and what doctrine says to do, than just fighting the fight in front of them," he says. "If they took the fight head-on, they'd do 150 times better."

His colleagues quickly agree. The Americans didn't adapt well to the terror tactics, and they were afraid to test new ideas.

But the winners have been told not to gloat, so they won't. They know how to play the game.

[Fred]

Originally posted by AchtungAffen

I also understand that games and the real thing are different things, but it gives you an idea on how a few guys scattered in an urban wreckage can take out as many tanks as they come. When you play it you would understand better what I'm saying. It's supposed to be a combat simulator, not a 'doom' like game.

You are right that infantry make armor their b-tch in urban areas.

[cool2burn]

im sorry a tank with 2
Apachies would destroy alot of ----

[Fred]

We are talking about survivability. You cannot destroy if you cannot survive first. Even Apaches are good targets in urban areas. Anyway we are talking about tanks in urban and just wanted to prove that tanks really sux without infantry protecting them. It is the infantry that protect the tanks and not the other way around.

[Hiigaran]

Originally posted by Fred


Well they didn't try hard enough. How can they get confuse a colonel with a three star general. If they can’t get that right what is the chance of they getting the combat right? Gasaraki make the US military look stupid and worst they are under the command of the UN, which will never happen. We destroy the fourth largest military in the world (Desert Storm) in 43 days (if I remember it correctly) and we didn't need macha to do it.

People shouldn’t try to defend anime as “realistic”. Everyone knows it is not “realistic” (I hope) and defending it just make it silly.

I'm glad to see you even finished reading my post before you responded. I didn't say it was realistic. I said it was "more" realistic than other animes. Look at Gundam Wing and Evangelion. Then look at Gasaraki. They attempted to make it seem plausible. Maybe that would be a better word to suit your literal tastes.

I wonder if you realize how much the research costs would have been to make it fully realistic? Prohibitively expensive to the production company, I can assure you that.

So what if they make the US military look stupid? You're complaining of Japanese favoritism in the wrong country, unless you'd like to defend the American propganda against Japan. Besides the fact that 90% of Americans are stupid.

[Kizzim]

Originally posted by Fred
We are talking about survivability. You cannot destroy if you cannot survive first. Even Apaches are good targets in urban areas. Anyway we are talking about tanks in urban and just wanted to prove that tanks really sux without infantry protecting them. It is the infantry that protect the tanks and not the other way around.

tanks have mounted machineguns and people who sit ontop and fire at troops trying to get too close. Plus they are highly manuverable, a driver could effortly move to run someone over if he really wanted to. Plus thats right... tank have infantry.. im sure mecha would have infantry too. If they were big enough.

[Sergeant Wittmann]

Originally posted by Hiigaran


I'm glad to see you even finished reading my post before you responded. I didn't say it was realistic. I said it was "more" realistic than other animes. Look at Gundam Wing and Evangelion. Then look at Gasaraki. They attempted to make it seem plausible. Maybe that would be a better word to suit your literal tastes.

I wonder if you realize how much the research costs would have been to make it fully realistic? Prohibitively expensive to the production company, I can assure you that.

So what if they make the US military look stupid? You're complaining of Japanese favoritism in the wrong country, unless you'd like to defend the American propganda against Japan. Besides the fact that 90% of Americans are stupid.


What US propaganda? The Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Deathmarch, Unit 731? If you're talking about WW2, then you're barking up the wrong tree. Japan was the cruellest, most bestial, and most vicious aggressor of the war. Just ask any Chinese who was alive during this period.
Gasaraki is nothing more than a natonalistic Japanese fantasy for people who are still sore that they lost to a rabble of "foreign barbarians."
As for Eva and Wing, those were all super-robot shows and so shouldn't be criticized for their lack of realism. They have other strengths to go on (not Wing though, that was just horrible).
As for real Gundam, I wouldn't call it "realistic", but at the same time I wouldn't say it was "unrealistic" either. Because we don't have any paradigm for what giant robot battles would be like, we can't pass any judgements on realism.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Hiigaran


I'm glad to see you even finished reading my post before you responded. I didn't say it was realistic. I said it was "more" realistic than other animes. Look at Gundam Wing and Evangelion. Then look at Gasaraki. They attempted to make it seem plausible. Maybe that would be a better word to suit your literal tastes.

I wonder if you realize how much the research costs would have been to make it fully realistic? Prohibitively expensive to the production company, I can assure you that.

So what if they make the US military look stupid? You're complaining of Japanese favoritism in the wrong country, unless you'd like to defend the American propganda against Japan. Besides the fact that 90% of Americans are stupid.

Let me add to what Sergeant Wittmann comments. All Asians countries have one thing in common, their extreme hatred for Japan. From Hawaii to India they hate the Japanese with an uncanny passion. When Asians talked to the GI and asks why we didn’t use more nukes on Japan, you have to wonder how deep there hatred is. Asians people want to see Japan glow in the dark. They wants to settle old scores.

It is the US military and the respect that Asian gives to the US that is protecting Japan or else Japan will glow in the dark the first chance they have.

Unlike Germany, Japan wasted 50 years without any reconciliation with their neighbors. Germany use that time to mend old hatred and now for the first time in its history, Germany is not surround by enemies but friends. For Japan everywhere they look they only see hostility toward them. It also should be noted that Japanese are renown for being racist.

You do not need to spend a penny to be realistic all they have to do was some research which they didn’t, in fact they didn’t use common sense. There is a scene that a Fake was dangling below the transport plane and shot/destroy the fighter. That is as unrealistic as it can be. Common sense will tell you if you are dangling and have no stable support there is no way in hell you can hit a damn thing.

Another things that I like to make fun of is how mecha fit into buildings. There are a few scenes in Gasaraki that Fakes are able to enter a building and fit into the hallways. I have never seen hallways as wide as I seen in anime, all because it is to allow mecha to fight inside it.

To make Gasaraki seem plausible is to say that pigs can fly. Just silly.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Kizzim


tanks have mounted machineguns and people who sit ontop and fire at troops trying to get too close. Plus they are highly manuverable, a driver could effortly move to run someone over if he really wanted to. Plus thats right... tank have infantry.. im sure mecha would have infantry too. If they were big enough.

Apparently you haven’t read this post yet. The article explains in great detail why tanks get killed in urban areas. Please read it and get back to me.

http://animeboards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=537583613#post537583613


Tanks are as maneuverable as turtles. A sixteen ton truck is more maneuverable then a tank.

[Shadow War]

I can't believe some of the racist comments on this topic. Yes Japanese did some cruel things in war, I am sure americans and other countries did some bad things too. Talking about japanese been racist! Then someone talks about how all asian countries hate japan. Is that ok because we won the war? Racism works both ways and if more people saw it that way, then the world might be a better place.

America seems to have the right to make movies bias to their views, why can't Japan? Violence and Racism are still with us today and will be for a long time. People have to look outside their hatred and xenophobia. I am not just talking about Americans; Japanese can be not much different.

BACK ON TOPIC>>>

Anyway about Gasaraki, they did try to make it seem more realistic. It still cannot be seen as something that is going to happen. If they could develop a mech that acted to the movements of the pilot, then it could be an effective weapon. An agile mech would be worth the money but a lumbering mech would get shot to bits. A flying mech with rail guns would be a serious threat.

[Kizzim]

Originally posted by Fred


Apparently you haven’t read this post yet. The article explains in great detail why tanks get killed in urban areas. Please read it and get back to me.

http://animeboards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=537583613#post537583613


Tanks are as maneuverable as turtles. A sixteen ton truck is more maneuverable then a tank.

Dude, plain and simple, yer a flaming moron. I went to military college, not only did i have a chance to experience most of everything the military has to offer, hanging out in tanks, bradleys, shooting guns, throwing grenades, but i actually learned how to use my brain, obviously something you dont use very often.

The M1A1 abrams can move on flat terrain at 45-50 mph, about 35-35 on rocky terrain. If you've ever seen track movement it can turn on a dime, faster than any car. Explain to me how the hell a tank is not manuverable? are you watching private ryan again?

Now im going to explain to you about that article. in that article they had the ****s, obvious a tank commander sent its tanks in without ground forces, thats his fault, not the tanks fault. I would NEVER walk into a town that was heavily fortifed as a solder without a armored vehical with me, i perfer the tank. Why were tanks first created? to breach areas with heavy implacements. As a ground force trooper i can use the tank as my shield, if there are some guys bunkered into a building, tank blows it the ---- up. The situation in article would have never happened if the infantry was there. To say that tanks never belong inside urban areas, is stupid, very stupid, just about as stupid as an idea to send in troops with no heavy vehicals. Thank god yer not in the military, and thank god even tho i went through hell in military college, the people who were incharge of me know their **** more than you.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Kizzim

Dude, plain and simple, yer a flaming moron. I went to military college, not only did i have a chance to experience most of everything the military has to offer, hanging out in tanks, bradleys, shooting guns, throwing grenades, but i actually learned how to use my brain, obviously something you dont use very often.

The M1A1 abrams can move on flat terrain at 45-50 mph, about 35-35 on rocky terrain. If you've ever seen track movement it can turn on a dime, faster than any car. Explain to me how the hell a tank is not manuverable? are you watching private ryan again?

Now im going to explain to you about that article. in that article they had the ****s, obvious a tank commander sent its tanks in without ground forces, thats his fault, not the tanks fault. I would NEVER walk into a town that was heavily fortifed as a solder without a armored vehical with me, i perfer the tank. Why were tanks first created? to breach areas with heavy implacements. As a ground force trooper i can use the tank as my shield, if there are some guys bunkered into a building, tank blows it the ---- up. The situation in article would have never happened if the infantry was there. To say that tanks never belong inside urban areas, is stupid, very stupid, just about as stupid as an idea to send in troops with no heavy vehicals. Thank god yer not in the military, and thank god even tho i went through hell in military college, the people who were incharge of me know their **** more than you.




I serious doubt that you had military training when you defended the viability of mecha in combat.

I hate to bring this up but your grammar and spelling is less then desirable much less pass military college.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Shadow War
I can't believe some of the racist comments on this topic. Yes Japanese did some cruel things in war, I am sure americans and other countries did some bad things too. Talking about japanese been racist! Then someone talks about how all asian countries hate japan. Is that ok because we won the war? Racism works both ways and if more people saw it that way, then the world might be a better place.

America seems to have the right to make movies bias to their views, why can't Japan? Violence and Racism are still with us today and will be for a long time. People have to look outside their hatred and xenophobia. I am not just talking about Americans; Japanese can be not much different.



Japan was barbaric in WWII and that is where the hatred came from. Japan didn’t do a damn thing to reconcile with her neighbors like Germany. You really can’t blame them for hating Japan.

Every Asian countries want pot shots at Japan. That is not my opinion, that is just facts. That is the reason why Japan has the second largest military budget in the world and the second most advance military in Asia second only to the USA.

[Kizzim]

Originally posted by Fred



I serious doubt that you had military training when you defended the viability of mecha in combat.

I hate to bring this up but your grammar and spelling is less then desirable much less pass military college.

Oooh that hurt really :) A vehical in the military is just a platform. You can almost mount anything on anything. There isnt a standard on what mecha could be, size, speed, movement. So its impossibly to deny the fact there could be viability to one. You dont know your weapons, you dont know your machines, you dont know military strategy, so you really dont know anything. Now when i put you in yer place you gotta insult my grammer. Im posting a board fool, not writing a report.

[AchtungAffen]

Doesn't it show you something, that you have to defend your ideas with such words?

[Kizzim]

Actually it doesnt. I always talk like this, part of having the military in my life. Im always direct, i have no problems calling people out. But what i hate the most is people who try to trash another persons ideas with no factual information. No statistics, no research, just stupid comments. Unfortunatly there are only a few people who post here that dont do that, and you will notice i only yell at a few people who post, those idiots who keep repeating the same mistakes of not gathering information before posting.

[Fred]

Ok you fake. I gave you a chance to get out of this lie but you insisted on going further. At least you didn’t say that you are a Special Force.

First of all you’re just a poor college student and never serve in the military or gone to military college or fought in Desert Storm. You also have a bad website and I suggest that instead of being a programer you should take more classes on how to bullsh*t better. I have in fact known a lot of people that went to military colleges and serve in the military. They have much better grammar and vocabulary then you do. Anyone with a military background and serve in the military for sometimes knows that mecha is just a joke in combat and not even worth the attention.

Your name is Thomas Cokran and you are a computer college student. You live in Chicago, IL and love playing Anarchy Online. You even devoted part of your ugly website toward it. The website URL is called Corkran.org and just went dark today. Don’t worry I made copy of your entire website and did a limited background check on you. It was just too easy.

The first attachment is from your profile on this board.

[Fred]

The second attachment is the fontpage of his website

[Fred]

The third attachment is his Anarchy Online website which is part if Corkran.org. Notice the title bar and on the lower left is his called sign.

I was very tempted to find where Kizzim lives and go to school by going into Chicago DMV database but I decided not to. Kizzim is a liar and his words is like water.

[Fred]

I also did a quick domain check on your website and surprising enough you let your webhost steal your domain name. You don’t own Corkran.org your webhost hostonce.com does. You were too cheap to buy one or worst don't have the money to which gets back to the poor college student part.


http://hostonce.com/

[Kizzim]

Umm okay?

I have been to military college you jackass, if you'd like to call my college and ask if ive attended there, or if you would like a screenshot of my transcript i can hook you up with that also.

The fact that you would try to find me online scares me :P are you stalking me you sick anime pervert?

Also ive never been in desert storm, however, most of my data comes from reports, speeches, books written by those who have.

As for my website, yes i used to play anarchyonline, i also worked for them as a GM, but that was a year ago :)

As for my domain, i wanted one, i have no intentions of running it or doing anything complicated. If a company steals my website ohh well.. my family also owns .com, .net :)

Also, go ahead and try to do a background check on me, you wont get very far without a SS#, where i was born etc. you also wont find me in the chicago DMV :) And, i garantee you, if i find you, and i will, i will put you in the hospital for annoying me, garanteed.

"Your name is Thomas Cokran and you are a computer college student. You live in Chicago, IL and love playing Anarchy Online. You even devoted part of your ugly website toward it. The website URL is called Corkran.org and just went dark today. Don’t worry I made copy of your entire website and did a limited background check on you. It was just too easy"

yeah its called looking at my profile, which states where i live and my webpage. My webpage says my name. Wow.. great detective work there. As for making a copy of my website.. yeah i just made a copy of animeboards.com, its a nifty little thing ANYONE can do.
As for my webpage being ugly, yers isnt too nice either.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Kizzim
[B]Umm okay?

I have been to military college you jackass, if you'd like to call my college and ask if ive attended there, or if you would like a screenshot of my transcript i can hook you up with that also.



Did you or did you not graduated from a military college? First you said that you graduated from a military college and now in your own words said you attainted a military college. I cannot see you passing English 101 much less passing a military college. It takes discipline and hard work to pass a military college, it is something that you lack. You never serve in the military in your life.



The fact that you would try to find me online scares me :P are you stalking me you sick anime pervert?



What I am trying to show is that you are a liar and a fake. You are a liar. You are a fake.


Also ive never been in desert storm, however, most of my data comes from reports, speeches, books written by those who have.


So now you are saying that never fought Desert Storm. How convenient.


As for my website, yes i used to play anarchyonline, i also worked for them as a GM, but that was a year ago :)


I think this statement speaks for itself.


As for my domain, i wanted one, i have no intentions of running it or doing anything complicated. If a company steals my website ohh well.. my family also owns .com, .net :)


In other words you are too poor to own one and live in your parent house.



Also, go ahead and try to do a background check on me, you wont get very far without a SS#, where i was born etc. you also wont find me in the chicago DMV :) And, i garantee you, if i find you, and i will, i will put you in the hospital for annoying me, garanteed.


You are dumbass kid that got caught in a lie and the only way you can get out of it is to threaten me. Bring your A game when you see me kid.

[Shadow War]

This is getting personal...Glad I am not involved. :sulkoff:

[Kizzim]

Spent a little fun tonight. Found out our friend here goes by the alias Countzero. Visited and downloaded his nice site... www.countzero.com.

He lives in VA Beach, VA. His name, havent found yet, but when i do... the fun i shall have..

Not sure if he created this site or his friend, i was feeling for a little bit of payback, so i downloaded the entire website. Anyone here who wants to play with it a little bit, run a mimic, or make yer own using their hard work, you can download it at:

www.geocities.com/maeric79/www.icomic.com.zip

You sir have been haxxored.

You will never find me claiming i served in desert storm. I never stated i graduated from a military college, i went to one for 2 years, which is the maximum allowed without joining that branch. I went to a army college, I want to join the Air Force. So now im finishing my remaining 2 years in a ROTC program. Only reason i went to that specific military college was i was given a Drill Team/Colorguard scholorship :)

Ive also been awarded one national recignized medal the Army Recruiter's award :) (and no it has nothing to do with me recruiting, thats the organization that awarded it to me)

Unfortunatly i passed english 101 a and b, at military college. Apperently their standards arent as high as you thought :)

I dont understand how you beleive i couldnt have lived the military life. I went through bootcamp (like them), ive been in the field with my issued equipment doing tasks such as night recon, etc. The only thing i havent been in is in combat, war, whatever you wish to call it. Then again 80% of the people in the military havent.

I dont live with my parents. I dont even live in Chicago. Im 23 years old, hardly a kid. If you wish to make this more personal, i will show you how computer literate i am, and i will start DoS attacks, and i will bring yer site down, and everyone on yer links site, that is not a company. Anytime you want to settle this in RL, let me know.

[Wolfpac]

HEY!!!
Fellows, Settle Down. I don't want to have to warn you guys do I? If you don't behave I will have to give both of you guys Warnings.
And Kizzim, do I have to remind you that you are on 2 warnings already and that one more will result in your banning
So Behave O.K... Or I will close this topic

[Sergeant Wittmann]

Both of you should try e-mailing eachother from now on, because this is a good thread and I'll be pissed if it gets shut down in its prime.

[Kizzim]

Explain that to the little jap/chinese kid who thinks he knows about military equipment and strategy when he never in his life has experienced it or used it.

He cant handle that there are people out there that know more than him, and he cant handle hes wrong. He brought this onto a personal level and i responded. The fact i got a warning for returning the favor is lame, but its expected of the moderators here.

I have lived the military life since i was 15 and enrolled in JROTC, i was in it all highschool, in college i did both military college and ROTC. To have some little kid tell me that im 'faking' or 'pretending' is down right insulting, and it wont stop, not until hes laying on the ground blooded with my class ring imprint in his forhead.

[Sergeant Wittmann]

Just shut up and discuss Gasaraki's realism.

[Harbinger]

i found that at the start it was very realistic in the tatics used. considering that the tanks commanders had never faced anything like that before.

[Sergeant Wittmann]

The shock of encountering an unseen and dangerous foe was conveyed well, but the tactics were idiotic. Those tanks were massed together like the grenadiers at Waterloo. Highly unrealistic to say the least. It's not like they were using methods that worked until the mechs showed up, it's that they were methods that noone has ever once used throughout the history of armored warfare.

I have just one question though. When the T&As attacked, was there any reason why the tankers didn't see them until they were directly on top of them? Were they made of some sort of space-age, radar absorbent material? Were they masked by IR resistant smoke? Or did they just pop out of nowhere because it would make the mechs look more destructive?

[Harbinger]

Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
The shock of encountering an unseen and dangerous foe was conveyed well, but the tactics were idiotic. Those tanks were massed together like the grenadiers at Waterloo. Highly unrealistic to say the least. It's not like they were using methods that worked until the mechs showed up, it's that they were methods that noone has ever once used throughout the history of armored warfare.

when i was watching that, i was in the understanding general or cornal or whatever was in the process of getting the tanks into position. hence why they where so close togather, they hadnt gotten to where they where going yet, but where massing for deployment.

[Ilex201]

As i understood it the TA attack was on a rear staging area, so the tanks and APCs were still all massed together , because they were going to be in combat formation on their advance. The TA's were probably able to use the terrain to cover their aproach, it was in the desert, so there are many dried out river beds and trenches.
I'm not sure what kind of an IR signature a TA would have, but since they are using batteries it would be propably quite low. So an observer using a thermal imaging device migth not recognice it or mistake it for something else.

[Sergeant Wittmann]

Originally posted by Ilex201
As i understood it the TA attack was on a rear staging area, so the tanks and APCs were still all massed together , because they were going to be in combat formation on their advance.

The TA's were probably able to use the terrain to cover their aproach, it was in the desert, so there are many dried out river beds and trenches.

I'm not sure what kind of an IR signature a TA would have, but since they are using batteries it would be propably quite low. So an observer using a thermal imaging device migth not recognice it or mistake it for something else.



1. They were only a few miles from the city, that is so not a rear area. And logically, even if they were in the rear, they wouldn't travel around like they were at a Memorial day parade

2. Not all deserts are like that. Some ar flat as a board, some are mountainous. This one seemed to have lots of sand dunes, but that wouldn't have stopped the air cover that was conveniently left out of the show from seeing them. Not to mention the satellites and ground reconnaissance that also didn't exist in the show probably would've encountered the enemy. I

3. honestly don't know all that much about infrared and night vision sensors. Still, that scene looked really fishy.

[Ilex201]

"1. They were only a few miles from the city, that is so not a rear area. And logically, even if they were in the rear, they wouldn't travel around like they were at a Memorial day parade "

IIRC they stated that they were at the border, so its not that they were only a few miles from border. Fact is also they didn`t travel around like they were at a Memorial day parade, they were just ready to get moving. It makes sense to have the vehicles close together in a staging area because it enables them to communicate without blowing emcon.

2. Not all deserts are like that. Some ar flat as a board, some are mountainous. This one seemed to have lots of sand dunes, but that wouldn't have stopped the air cover that was conveniently left out of the show from seeing them. Not to mention the satellites and ground reconnaissance that also didn't exist in the show probably would've encountered the enemy. I

We can only speculate what the desert in that area was like, so i won't do this. :D But everthing that breaks line of sight favours the TA.
Air cover would have joined the armour once they have gotten close to the front lines, remember that the last resistance was supposed to be in the capital. You won't see armoured columns always escorted by helicopters or ground attack aircraft because there are simply to much vehicle to cover. The key for combined arms tactics is the right organization and timing, hence there are many ways to screw up. Like when the air cover is early at the rendevouz point and the amour doesn't show up or vice versa. But I'm geting of topic.:rolleyes:

Satellite recon doesn't work against small, fast moving targets and it's not always available since the sats are traveling around the globe. Ground recon could have cought them, but since Symbol has many of it's men inside the allied forces they could have simply ordered the patrols to different areas. And that leads to: Since Symbol had so many informants inside the allied forces they always knew what they were trying to do and could act accordingly. So the US Troops were simply set up, there wasn't much they could have done in that situation.

Wow! So many words...must rest....:sleep2:

[Fred]

Originally posted by Kizzim
[B]Explain that to the little jap/chinese kid who thinks he knows about military equipment and strategy when he never in his life has experienced it or used it.



Actually I am white. The website belongs to my friend which he is Chinese and retire Army. I don’t own a website.

I had to cool off for a couple of weeks because you made my blood boil.


He cant handle that there are people out there that know more than him, and he cant handle hes wrong. He brought this onto a personal level and i responded. The fact i got a warning for returning the favor is lame, but its expected of the moderators here.


You don’t know ----. You just a liar, fake, thug, and now a raciest.


I have lived the military life since i was 15 and enrolled in JROTC, i was in it all highschool, in college i did both military college and ROTC. To have some little kid tell me that im 'faking' or 'pretending' is down right insulting, and it wont stop, not until hes laying on the ground blooded with my class ring imprint in his forhead.

Whatever. You can't even spell right. I will sign off on this but don’t be fool by him. Communication skill is vital to becoming an officer in any military. If someone can’t even spell correctly they won’t be gradating from any military college at all. You don’t even have the discipline to capitalize your I.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Ilex201
As i understood it the TA attack was on a rear staging area, so the tanks and APCs were still all massed together , because they were going to be in combat formation on their advance. The TA's were probably able to use the terrain to cover their aproach, it was in the desert, so there are many dried out river beds and trenches.
I'm not sure what kind of an IR signature a TA would have, but since they are using batteries it would be propably quite low. So an observer using a thermal imaging device migth not recognice it or mistake it for something else.

Actually it doesn’t matter if they are using batteries are not. The AT will generate heat.

[Ilex201]

Of course it will generate heat, but the question is how much. Sure it won't be as much as a gas turbine or even a diesel engine.
As i said before it might be easely mistaken for something else, maybe even for an enemy soldier at first.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Ilex201


IIRC they stated that they were at the border, so its not that they were only a few miles from border. Fact is also they didn`t travel around like they were at a Memorial day parade, they were just ready to get moving. It makes sense to have the vehicles close together in a staging area because it enables them to communicate without blowing emcon.



Being near the boarder is irrelevant. It make no sense that they are so close to the enemy city and yet so close together. It doesn’t matter blowing communication silence or not, because in a combat theater the whole airwave is flooded with encrypted communications from both side.


2. Not all deserts are like that. Some ar flat as a board, some are mountainous. This one seemed to have lots of sand dunes, but that wouldn't have stopped the air cover that was conveniently left out of the show from seeing them. Not to mention the satellites and ground reconnaissance that also didn't exist in the show probably would've encountered the enemy. I


That is correct, not all desert are alike. If there is a word to describe the US military it is reconnaissance. We spend billions of dollars in reconnaissance. The NSA is currently building a $20 billion satellite complex. For that kind of money the US Navy can built 5 Super Carriers (around 4 million each. BTW we are the only nation that has Super Carriers). This is use for the NSA only. The CIA and US military has the own billions dollars programs. It is really nonsense to think that the US military would not use these resources to help them.


We can only speculate what the desert in that area was like, so i won't do this. :D But everthing that breaks line of sight favours the TA.


I don't know about that.


Air cover would have joined the armour once they have gotten close to the front lines, remember that the last resistance was supposed to be in the capital.


There are only a few times in history that a capital are left defenseless. In most cases their culture and society become ashes in the history book. The majority of the time the capital is the most heavily defended city in the state. The Soviet lost almost half a million soldiers taking Berlin. The defenders of Berlin was made up of children and old people.

For the US capital, the USMC has the honor of defending our capital. I think 50,000 (or maybe 25,000) Marines are station in or around the capital at any given time.


You won't see armoured columns always escorted by helicopters or ground attack aircraft because there are simply to much vehicle to cover.


Helicopters rarely escort armor. Attack helicopters are use in packs to provide the maximum firepower. Armor slow them down and make them valuable to ground attacks. Helicopters are not like fighters, they do not have the speed and altitude for protection from the ground. Instead helicopters fly low and fast for protection and surprise. Protection comes in the form of enemy only have a limited of time to aim at them before an obstacle block their view. This was leaned the hard way in Vietnam.

You be very surprise how much area a gunship can cover. BTW helicopters are not called gunship. The press sometime confuses helicopters with gunship.

This is a gunship.
http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/AC_130H_U_Gunship.html

It is very hard for any country to win a war if it can’t control the skies.


The key for combined arms tactics is the right organization and timing, hence there are many ways to screw up. Like when the air cover is early at the rendevouz point and the amour doesn't show up or vice versa. But I'm geting of topic.:rolleyes:


Their always screws ups. War is chaos and whoever manage chaos better and inflict more chaos on the other side will win the war.


Satellite recon doesn't work against small, fast moving targets and it's not always available since the sats are traveling around the globe.


You are correct to say that satellite does not cover the combat zone every minute. That is about to change with recon drones in the next decade.

Recon is a snap shot of the battlefield. What it does tell is where the enemy is located, where it is headed, the number it has, the equipment it is using, etc.


Ground recon could have cought them, but since Symbol has many of it's men inside the allied forces they could have simply ordered the patrols to different areas. And that leads to: Since Symbol had so many informants inside the allied forces they always knew what they were trying to do and could act accordingly. So the US Troops were simply set up, there wasn't much they could have done in that situation.



This might be true in the rear but in forward position, there is only the enemy. They won’t fool anyone.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Ilex201
Of course it will generate heat, but the question is how much. Sure it won't be as much as a gas turbine or even a diesel engine.
As i said before it might be easely mistaken for something else, maybe even for an enemy soldier at first.

How can you mistake a 15 feet giant?

[Ilex201]

Helicopters rarely escort armor. Attack helicopters are use in packs to provide the maximum firepower. Armor slow them down and make them valuable to ground attacks. Helicopters are not like fighters, they do not have the speed and altitude for protection from the ground. Instead helicopters fly low and fast for protection and surprise. Protection comes in the form of enemy only have a limited of time to aim at them before an obstacle block their view. This was leaned the hard way in Vietnam.

I never called helicopters gunships and know very well what a AC-130 gunship is. What has that to do with the topic?



There are only a few times in history that a capital are left defenseless. In most cases their culture and society become ashes in the history book. The majority of the time the capital is the most heavily defended city in the state. The Soviet lost almost half a million soldiers taking Berlin. The defenders of Berlin was made up of children and old people.

I have never said that capital was defenseless, maybe you should reread my text.

This might be true in the rear but in forward position, there is only the enemy. They won’t fool anyone

If all your recon is ordered to look to an different area then you are practically blind. And they expected to contact the enemy in the capital, certainly not on their staging area.



How can you mistake a 15 feet giant?

With an thermal imager you see only the heat the target is generating, you can't see details. It's all a matter of pattern recognition in our brain. If you see a tank you know its big. But if you see a humanoid figure, guess what your brain will think at first: a human. Now if the TA is standing next to a vehicle or infantry, you will have a good size comparison. If not, well you might get mistaken for a few seconds and that might be a few seconds to much. Please remember that i am talking about the tanks here, a human observer with the good old MK.1 eyeball won't be fooled of course.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Ilex201

I never called helicopters gunships and know very well what a AC-130 gunship is. What has that to do with the topic?



You did mention helicopters and gunships that is very hard to cover a wide range of area.



I have never said that capital was defenseless, maybe you should reread my text.


I read your statement wrong.



If all your recon is ordered to look to an different area then you are practically blind. And they expected to contact the enemy in the capital, certainly not on their staging area.


A major battle like that you would expect forward recon pathfinder units to clear the way of any possible sneak attack.




With an thermal imager you see only the heat the target is generating, you can't see details. It's all a matter of pattern recognition in our brain. If you see a tank you know its big. But if you see a humanoid figure, guess what your brain will think at first: a human. Now if the TA is standing next to a vehicle or infantry, you will have a good size comparison. If not, well you might get mistaken for a few seconds and that might be a few seconds to much. Please remember that i am talking about the tanks here, a human observer with the good old MK.1 eyeball won't be fooled of course.

If a soldier can’t tell between a 15 feet giant and 6 feet normal human then he shouldn’t be in the military.

[Sergeant Wittmann]

Originally posted by Ilex201
With an thermal imager you see only the heat the target is generating, you can't see details. It's all a matter of pattern recognition in our brain. If you see a tank you know its big. But if you see a humanoid figure, guess what your brain will think at first: a human.

This may be true, but what of night vision? You don't get much detail with those but certainly moreso than thermal imaging. If soldiers in this situation did see the TAs (which they certainly didn't), and even if they had mistaken them for troops, wouldn't someone observing had at least said "Hey sarge, I found something"?
And shouldn't the army have had at least some kind of security around the staging area? Surely there would have been OPs and LPs and a defesnive line. Even failing high-tech gizmos the dogface infantryman would've known something was up.

[Guildenstern]

Originally posted by Sergeant Wittmann
If you think about it we are the most important country in the world. As a world superpower, we have the strongest economy and military. And our system of government is a damned good one too. Checks and balances, division of power, the constitution, and over 225 years of stability. How often have radical groups overthrown the government? How often has the military launched a coup de'tat? Americans have a lot to be proud of.

As to whether I think the "military" action in Gasaraki ruined it, I'm not sure yet. Everything else is pretty good, except for some voices in the dub (the dictator of Belgistan sounds like Fat Bastard). But the lack of realism makes it very difficult for me to like. And by Americans really acting the way they do in Gasaraki, do you mean militarily inept?

"As A world super power"? Try, the world super power with China snapping at our heels to catch up. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States was the only remaining super power. The remaining nations are catagorized as Third World, Developing, or Industrialized...

[AchtungAffen]

And our system of government is a damned good one too.

Well, yeah, but still it depends on how it's used isn't it? Ask the neanderthal you have for president about that.

Like how strange it is that every time the president is on a hurry on some internal matter, a war is declared somewhere, and how all this economical fraud thing is starting to smell like war on Iraq, like how that famous "impeachment" ended up stinking to war.

And spending 17 millions in advertising for the kids not to have sex until marriage doesn't seem like responsible use of taxpayers money to me.

And what about this new moves on economical protectionism?

The denial of the Kyoto treaty?

What about the Israel - Palestine thing? Mommas little helper doesn't seem to be working since the ape became president

The refusal of the international court, because they're afraid of Americans soldiers involved in it? Well, I always wondered why something like "American soldiers accused of violating human rights" has never hit the news. Are they so perfect and rule accomplishing after all?

And how about so many personal rights where stepped over with the famous "antiterrorist" excuse? In other countries that meant State Terrorism, how long will it take till the US starts doing it too?

And how they stand tall and proud at the scream of "I'M NOT GOING TO LET CORRUPTION LINKED PERSONAS TO ENTER THE US" when Menem stayed at Bush Sr. house, a few months ago, when he's accused of tons of frauds and now the washington post puts in the front page how the Irani government paid 10 million dollars for Menem to cover up the terrorists acts they did (The AMIA, a Jewish association, and Israel's embassy)

The most important country in the world? Maybe
The country who helps more on human development? In other times, perhaps. Now, I seriously doubt it.

All this superb systems starts to stink like hypocrisy, and it seems that if the States doesn't take responsibly the possition they fought to earn, it will end up like, well, figure it out. A la Gasaraki maybe?

I wonder how the world would be if the most powerful country was Japan.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Guildenstern


"As A world super power"? Try, the world super power with China snapping at our heels to catch up. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States was the only remaining super power. The remaining nations are catagorized as Third World, Developing, or Industrialized...

China is like the Soviets. There strength is an illusion. China is just entering the industrial age. Japan military budget beat China military budget by a mile. In fact, Japan is the second most technical advance military in Asia just behind the USA (we supplies Japan with US made weapons).

In fact there was a good discussion on who second most powerful nation in the world. I didn’t post my remarks but I do agree that the EU is the second most powerful entity. The EU has the military, economic, and political power to be a threat.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122820&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

[Fred]

The problems that the world faces today are not made by the USA. In fact most of these problems we faced today dated back six centuries ago. The USA just inherited the problem that was caused by the Europeans.



What about the Israel - Palestine thing? Mommas little helper doesn't seem to be working since the ape became president



Honestly do you really think that what we do in the Middle East has any impact on them? For over 50 years they have been killing each other, it doesn’t matter who is in charge. For a lack of better words they don’t want peace. One hundred years from now they will still go after each other throats.


The denial of the Kyoto treaty?


The Kyoto treaty was flaw from the beginning. It never addressed the issue of developing countries that are undergoing there own industrial age. From China to Mexico these countries are the main polluters. These countries are given the go ahead to pollute to their harts content by the Kyoto treaty. Is this fair to US workers? No it is not. Anyway, why does the world need US permission? The USA is not telling them not to sign it. These nations that are so concern about the environment should just sign the treaty and leave the USA behind. They are happy that they sign it, we are happy that we did not sign it. Everyone is happy. What the problem here?

Let me add one last thing. China pollutes ten-twenty time more then the USA each year. China like all developing nations does not care about the environment.

[AchtungAffen]

Honestly do you really think that what we do in the Middle East has any impact on them?

Well, not making too much an effort, I still remember how Clinton brought Arafat and Israel's president by that time, and how it almost got settled, or at least a relative calm was present, until, well, the intifada.


For over 50 years they have been killing each other, it doesn’t matter who is in charge.

Remember how it all started.


For a lack of better words they don’t want peace. One hundred years from now they will still go after each other throats.

I don't think this matter can be generalized that much. I bet you many people really don't care about all the territory/political problems and just want to live in peace, but regretably, there are much more interests at stake wich make a profit from the struggle, and they have all the means to mantain things at will.


The Kyoto treaty was flaw from the beginning. It never addressed the issue of developing countries that are undergoing there own industrial age. From China to Mexico these countries are the main polluters. These countries are given the go ahead to pollute to their harts content by the Kyoto treaty. Is this fair to US workers? No it is not. Anyway, why does the world need US permission? The USA is not telling them not to sign it. These nations that are so concern about the environment should just sign the treaty and leave the USA behind. They are happy that they sign it, we are happy that we did not sign it. Everyone is happy. What the problem here?

Remember who's the largest polluter in the world. That's the reason of it all.


Let me add one last thing. China pollutes ten-twenty time more then the USA each year. China like all developing nations does not care about the environment.

You're wrong. It's the US. But the problem still is worst than that, because of the climate changes to come because of greenhouse gas emissions (ranking wich the us leads) will affect everyone, and not just you. Or worst, taking advantage of 3rd world countries to produce all the dirt for you.
Also, the ozone holes. The ones who will have to deal with it are us, southies, or people far up north, because this holes are formed on the poles.

[Fred]

Originally posted by AchtungAffen

Well, not making too much an effort, I still remember how Clinton brought Arafat and Israel's president by that time, and how it almost got settled, or at least a relative calm was present, until, well, the intifada.



They said the same thing twenty, thirty, and forty years ago. It is just a cycle that been repeating itself.



I don't think this matter can be generalized that much. I bet you many people really don't care about all the territory/political problems and just want to live in peace, but regretably, there are much more interests at stake wich make a profit from the struggle, and they have all the means to mantain things at will.


How can you say something like that? Do you think they wanted to sacrifice their kids or leave in fear for a few bucks? No, they are not doing this because of money. They do this because they hate each other. Each generation remember what the other side did and thus the conflict continue. Conflicts rarely started for profits. Most conflicts are started by ideology.

The Middle East conflict started because UK and UN did not resolves major issues between the Jews and Arabs in 1947. The UK and UN forgo their responsibility. Basically it was too hot for them to handle and they run with their tails between their legs. That is how it all started.

The UK could have stay in the Middle East, enforce the law and keep peace until both the Arabs and Jews resolves all major issues. If they did it right the first time we wouldn’t have this discussion.




Remember who's the largest polluter in the world. That's the reason of it all.


You're wrong. It's the US. But the problem still is worst than that, because of the climate changes to come because of greenhouse gas emissions (ranking wich the us leads) will affect everyone, and not just you. Or worst, taking advantage of 3rd world countries to produce all the dirt for you.
Also, the ozone holes. The ones who will have to deal with it are us, southies, or people far up north, because this holes are formed on the poles.

The USA is a service nation. It has been for over 40 years. We are moving toward an information nation. We don’t manufacture that much products anymore. We export ideas and import products. Our ideas in turn is produce by developing nations. In other words, we design a product, we shipped it out to a developing nations like China or Mexico. They in return make the product and shipped it back to us.

We get our DVD, TV, shoes, computers, etc, from China, Mexico, and other developing nations around the world because they make it cheaper then it would be in the USA. These developing nations have cheap labors and no environmental laws to tied them down.

[AchtungAffen]

quote:
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Originally posted by AchtungAffen

Well, not making too much an effort, I still remember how Clinton brought Arafat and Israel's president by that time, and how it almost got settled, or at least a relative calm was present, until, well, the intifada.


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They said the same thing twenty, thirty, and forty years ago. It is just a cycle that been repeating itself.



But still, I was referring to your other comment wich read like this:

Honestly do you really think that what we do in the Middle East has any impact on them?

And yes, if Clinton made Arafat and Israel's President by that time (Barak or something his name was) then that clearly shows how much impact what the US says or does has on middle east. Whenever something big happens both parties go for the US, am I right?

How can you say something like that? Do you think they wanted to sacrifice their kids or leave in fear for a few bucks? No, they are not doing this because of money. They do this because they hate each other. Each generation remember what the other side did and thus the conflict continue. Conflicts rarely started for profits. Most conflicts are started by ideology.

How can I say something like that? Well, don't you think people behind groups like Hamas, even in the palestine government, aren't making profit of this? I cite an example, Iraq puts money to those groups and families of the suicidal bombers. Well, perhaps Iraq gives 25000 to the group to pay the family, well, how much does that family really get? An incognita isn't it? There's corruption on most levels of those activists groups, and into some factions of Israeli power-whelmers. If you think it's just a hate struggle, then I may say you're kind of an inocennt. As a general rule, WARS WHERE ALWAYS DRIVEN BECAUSE OF ECONOMICAL CAUSES, and you might add into this those famous medieval Crusades, if you want, as an example. Do you think they only wanted to free holy land of the unfaithful?, well, think again. Same happens here.

The Middle East conflict started because UK and UN did not resolves major issues between the Jews and Arabs in 1947. The UK and UN forgo their responsibility. Basically it was too hot for them to handle and they run with their tails between their legs. That is how it all started.

Yes, when the jews arrived (they where a minority by then), the UK, landholders by that time, remembered India, and just flew off. The UN gave a damn, because the UN was controlled by the States and England, and the States armed Israeli soldiers from the beginning, instead of trying to calm things down right there from day 1.

The USA is a service nation. It has been for over 40 years. We are moving toward an information nation. We don’t manufacture that much products anymore. We export ideas and import products.

Perhaps not such a big manufacturer (don't come now reading school books about the information nation, you just can't take things like this so easily, information straight from the government, hmmmm. They told us San Martin crossed Los Andes in a white horse, when actually he crossed in bed because he had SYPHILIS!!!)
What about cars? I still remember when I was in the states, the taboo of public transport. There ain't no country in wich public transport has so many prejudices. Everyone has a car, and only the 'poor' take the bus. That doesn't happen in the rest of the world, start with japan, home of our beloved animes, or my own homeland, developer of the first city buses. Like when I saw that stupid series "Sister Sister&