Lain V Boogiepop.

[Shadow War]

These are both strange and different series. Which one do you like the most? At the moment since I havent seen the rest of Boogiepop I would say Lain. It is less violent and confusing compared to boogiepop. I will withold my final judgement until I have seen Lain a couple of more times and seen Boogipop the whole way through.

[heart havok]

i hate to have to say this... but i certainly would have to choose Boogiepop Phantom if i were to pick between the two.

my major reason, being one of your opposing reasons... because it's more "confusing."

Lain is the kind of anime that is easy to find your own connections and symbolisms in. kinda like Eva... they put so much vague references in there, that it's easy to make something more of something less.

Boogiepop, on the other hand, is moreso made to connect. every detail adds an important piece of the puzzle into the story and plot. there are even details that mean something that we as an audience won't usually catch without knowing the entire story that is present in the Novels.

Lain is over crowded with information to destract you from the overall story, while on the other hand, Boogiepop is overcrowded with information piecing together the overall story.

in Boogiepop, there's more to analyse.

aside of that, i also got more out of Boogiepop Phantom than i did Lain. i got weird feelings, a numb body at one point... i've gotten more out of it rewatching than i have Lain. i saw Lain so many times, i stopped finding any new material to look into and enjoy analysing.. yet Boogiepop, i still find more and more to question and piece together every time. with Lain, i come to the same conclusion now... i never find more material to counter my own theories. yet on Boogiepop, i'll rewatch it and i will find new material that counters some of the theories that i've come to conclusion with; which keeps me analysing more, and revising theories...

in Lain, i love Lain.

yet in Boogiepop, i love all the characters and their interactions and relations and connexions between eachother.

[Drizzten]

havok is a monster. He let me watch too many (three) episodes of Boogiepop and now I position myself ever so closely to financial ruin by buying the DVDs all at once. I'd love to comment on Boogiepop, but I don't know enough yet. It displays immense promise, however.

[MDWigs]

I don't agree with that assessment at all HH, I think that Boogiepop is just as ambiguous in places as Eva or Lain ever were. I don't think that it's subtle clues were in any way more "focused" than those in Lain, their "connections" were indeed stronger, but they had to be due to the nature of the disjointed non-chronological story telling (in referring to the series specifically here, I am familiar with the other Boogiepop works, the novels, the movie, but I'll try to focus on the comparison between "Lain" and "BP Phantom" to stop this discussion between too large).

Boogiepop didn't stray so far into the realms of "finding your own answers" the way Lain did but on the same token I don't think that as you put it that in BP " every detail adds an important piece of the puzzle into the story and plot.". There are quite a number of details that are never explained in BP, they never attempt to explain (and nor should they explain everything IMHO).

I don't agree with your statement that this "extra" information detracts from the story of lain while it helps in BP. I didn't find anything detracting about the extra information in Lain (nor did I in BP though for that matter, or Eva). I don't think the actually use of "extra" information is the issue, I simply think that the way they were used was different, BP couldn't afford to do all that Lain did, simply by virtue of its storytelling style. It couldn't get any more convoluted.

So what am I saying? Well I'll summarise my points.

Lain and BP are different. That is obvious. The issue we are discussing here is concerned with "confusing" aspect as Shadow War put it. The two anime do it differently, in a different style, Lain's is with how the information is presented, BP is more with when the information is presented. I don't think the layering of "confusing" information in the way Lain did makes it particularly wasteful or "crowded". I do think the disjoining of "confusing" information in BP requires a tighter "connection", but I don't think it guarantees, as your assert, that every piece of information is vital and important. They are different styles and I don't think that the comparison you made of them was fair, in my opinion the "confusing" aspect of Lain and BP added to them both, it didn't add to one and detract from the other. They are both better for it, they simply do it in different ways (and thus to different degrees).

So all that being said, which do I like better? Well I would have to say I prefer BP, not for any of the reasons I've already discussed here, and the things I've discussed here are usually the reasons I like an anime (one of the reasons of my longstanding interest in Eva). No the reason I prefer BP is that I absolutely loved how dark it was in places, terrifyingly dark in a way that Lain could never be (and should never have been). That appealed to me, I haven't seen it for a while at that strength in may anime, and so it wins out for me in the end.

I love Lain, I am a Software Engineer, I work on the wired, I've been attracted to the themes of Lain since Eva, but overall BP beats Lain for me. Now please excuse my dalliance, I really should do some proper work.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by Drizzten
havok is a monster. He let me watch too many (three) episodes of Boogiepop and now I position myself ever so closely to financial ruin by buying the DVDs all at once. I'd love to comment on Boogiepop, but I don't know enough yet. It displays immense promise, however.
oh sure, don't give the full story.
i didn't make you leave. :p


as for MDWigs, you picked up on certain words in my post, and clearly did either of the two: 1, selective reading. or 2, misread, as i was breif. i will not help you choose which of the two, as i'm sure you know which you are at fault of taking at. none the less, never did i use the word "detract" but rather, "destract."

Creators and Producters claim: "There is nothing in LAIN." yet so many viewers find much much more. that's because of the use of misinformation that they use to destract you from the plot they have in mind. they use symbolism to clutter the story so that it appears confusing or whathave you. the story is not really confusing in the slightest but many people... MANY PEOPLE... are destracted by this symbolism. it throws them off. it messes with their heads. it twists their mind, so that once they think they're grasping ahold of the plot, something new and unrelated pops up to shatter their train of interpretation. i certainly won't go to say this symbolism is random though, i certainly believe that most if it is indeed placed with thought and intention to destract audiences. these pieces of symbolism are placed quite specifically and perfectly. it is the writer's intention to distract the viewers from the underlying plots and themes. the writer wants to confuse audiences, throw them off, or make them decypher between information to find out what it is to believe. he wants Lain to be a ride, and indeed, a ride it is.

Boogiepop, on the other hand is quite different. MANY of the parts of this series, though indeed they aren't explained, do HAVE an explaination. and that's why i state "every detail..." i can list all sorts of things in the series alone, that are not explained, yet DO have an official explaination as of why it's there, thus to add to the plot. as on the contrary, in Lain most of the things left unexplained ONLY have official explainations of why it's has nothing to do with the "true plot." i could list many things even, if you need references, things in Boogiepop that are certainly never explained yet do have an OFFICIAL explaination and detailed edition to the story...

the inside of Boogiepop's cape
the girl walking into a hotel in one scene
the boy burning a note in one scene
that note he is burning
the shadow over Scarecrow's dead body
Scarecrow [?:p]
the meaning of the name, Panuru
the fox spirit
cause of the column of light
the death of Nagi
the background on Nagi's father
Echoes
Minako {before light insident}
(the real) Saotome {before light insident}
Spooky Electric's abilities
who is Spooky Electric [?:p]
et cetra


in Lain, we can come up with our own little fantasies, like my own for example "but they're both called 'LAINsmall'... maybe the alien is Lain viewing herself as she later does, Arisu. thus she has become Alien to herself, this is why she doesn't recognise herself." sure, i may be wrong on that theory, but still this Alien figure averts our attention as an audience to question its existence. MISDIRECTION.

whether you agree or not with this "statement"... it's true. in Lain, did you leave the anime thinking "there's nothing in Lain, this is just about Japanese and American cultural differences" or did you walk away confused or feeling you'd all these theories and explainations? if you'd not the former, then you were destracted by the symbolism and images of misdirection. on the other hand, Boogiepop's information all points towards different aspects of the overall plot that is Boogiepop.

to summarise my points:
i never said the symbolism and misdirection in Lain DETRACTED from the series. i think it adds to the series very well. yet it CERTAINLY IS misdirection.
and it is FACT, not assumption, that the small details in the story of Boogiepop are a large addition to the real story. as it has a definite story that it is built around. even the order of the diced chronology has meaning and addition to the discovery and piecing of the puzzle.

[Shadow War]

Alot of things that have been discussed in this thread I agree with. Watching Lain again I see it is easy to get distracted with certain bits of information. Boogiepop is definitely darker and I might end up liking it more than Lain, but I will just have to wait and see.

I am glad that you all took this thread in the right frame of mind, I didn't want it to be a cheap discussion of which one is the best. That is not the real point. They are both series that are different from the normal anime out there, that is the reason that I like both of them so much.

Once you have seen Lain a few times, it does seem alot simpler; that does not take anything away from it. Shows like these are why I got into anime. Eva opened my eyes to a whole different world.

[MDWigs]

heart havok:

... none the less, never did i use the word "detract" but rather, "destract."

That is very true. My mistake, but a little of yours as well ^^ There is no such word as "destract", which is why I read it as detract, reading back now it is clear you meant to say "distract", but the lack of an 'I' confused me. Just to show you I am not completely mad by making that mistake I put "destract" into www.dictionay.com just now and was told "No entry found for destract. 2 suggestions found: detract distract".

So all that being said, and I do apologise for using the wrong word, but I don't really see the difference. Distract means"To cause to turn away from the original focus of attention or interest; divert." while detract means "To draw or take away; divert.". However I shall use "distract" for the remainder of this reply instead of "detract" because it is clear now that is what you originally intended.

Creators and Producters claim: "There is nothing in LAIN." yet so many viewers find much much more. that's because of the use of misinformation that they use to destract you from the plot they have in mind.

"The message is, Things are simple." - Ueda Yasuyuki, producer of lain, in response to the question "Is there a message to the show?". I don't think it was layered with misinformation at all, I don't think that the produces intentionally put that in there to distract from the plot that had in mind. I think they kept the plot very simple, kept the message very simple and added these other things in to supplement it, not to hide it. You are taking the quote "there is nothing in Lain" completely out of context. Ueda meant that there was now warfare in Lain, that it is a cultural war as opposed to warfare in the artwork. I suggest you read the full quote next time.

they use symbolism to clutter the story so that it appears confusing or whathave you.

I don't think that was their intention at all. I don't think things were added just for the sake of being confusing. As you mention later on BP's non chronological order has a reason behind it, but some may see it as being confusing just for the sake of being confusing, so that it appears confusing. Of course I will get into what "Many People" think below, and how it really has no baring on what we are talking about at all.

the story is not really confusing in the slightest but many people... MANY PEOPLE... are destracted by this symbolism. it throws them off. it messes with their heads. it twists their mind, so that once they think they're grasping ahold of the plot, something new and unrelated pops up to shatter their train of interpretation.

Likewise MANY PEOPLE feel the same about BP. I didn't feel distracted in either of them. Frankly I don't really care what many people felt, nor do I care if many people were confused. Going back to the immortal Hideaki Anno quote, "If you don't understand it, it's your own problem." Just because "many people" may find a show confusing or hard to follow doesn't mean that I do and thus it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the show. Many people ----- and complain about Eva saying that it was too many "unanswered questions", they do the same with Lain as well, and with BP. Them thinking that doesn't affect my interpretation or opinion of the show though.

So that is to say that just because you think that Lain distracts some people, many people in your opinion, that doesn't mean that it distracts me, likewise just because you think that BP doesn't distract people in the same way, doesn't change the fact that it could. We are discussing what our personal interpretations of these anime are; we are putting forward which one of the two we prefer. You made the statement that this "crowding of information" distracts from the overall story in lain, while pieces it together in BP. I disagree with that statement. Regardless of what "many people" may think, I don't agree that the information dissemination methods inherent to BP are "better" than the ones used in Lain. As I said in my last post, they are simply different; one is concerned with how, the other more with when. I don't agree that one distracts with the other adds, I think that both are simply different methods of layering extra information onto what is essentially a simple story.

i certainly won't go to say this symbolism is random though, i certainly believe that most if it is indeed placed with thought and intention to destract audiences. these pieces of symbolism are placed quite specifically and perfectly. it is the writer's intention to distract the viewers from the underlying plots and themes. the writer wants to confuse audiences, throw them off, or make them decypher between information to find out what it is to believe. he wants Lain to be a ride, and indeed, a ride it is.

I don't think it is their intention to distract the audience at all, I don't think they tried to set out to make it confusing, to obscure the story. These things make the events surrounding the simple story very complex but I don't think that was ever intended to distract the view from the main themes the creators were trying to bring across. That would be rather self-defeating in my opinion, to create an anime to get the message out and then purposeful obfuscate it to render it unintelligible.

Boogiepop, on the other hand is quite different. MANY of the parts of this series, though indeed they aren't explained, do HAVE an explaination. and that's why i state "every detail..." i can list all sorts of things in the series alone, that are not explained, yet DO have an official explaination as of why it's there, thus to add to the plot. as on the contrary, in Lain most of the things left unexplained ONLY have official explainations of why it's has nothing to do with the "true plot."

This seems to me to be a different sort of reasoning about "confusion" than what you were expressing before (or perhaps I misread again ^^). Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are suggesting that in BP the "answers" are set in stone, absolutely, with no ambiguity, while in Lain they are not? Am I correct in this interpretation? I am having trouble understanding what your opinions on this issue are, because you initially said that the major reason you preferred BP was that it was "more confusing". If as you say the answers in BP are set in stone (and I don't entirely agree with that statement, but I'll leave that for another time) then surely it would be less "confusing" than Lain?

To quote Ueda again "This "True" answer was only for us [the creators of Lain]. We don't expect the audience to feel the same way. That there wouldn't be just one answer for the audience.". Lain is most certainly open for interpretation, it is expected that the audience come up with their own answers about things. This doesn't mean that the creators don't have their own answers for those very same things, but the interpretation and analysis is left up to the viewer. To quote Hideaki Anno again, who has a similar viewpoint on Eva "Don't expect to get answers by someone. Don't expect to be catered to all the time. We all have to find our own answers." I agree completely that the audience is left to come up with their own answers in Lain, that we are not given official explanations on many things however I don't think that BP is so different to this, nor do I think that it makes one more or less "confusing" than the other.

i could list many things even, if you need references, things in Boogiepop that are certainly never explained yet do have an OFFICIAL explaination and detailed edition to the story...

<Snip List>

How many of these things actually affect the plot though? Actually affect the "message"? Sure there may be an "official explanation" for why these things are there, but when you think about it there is an "official explanation" for everything in anime, because it is created after all, we the viewers may simply not be privy to that explanation. Is the "reason" that Nagi is called Nagi any more or less substantial than the reason Lain is called Lain?

in Lain, we can come up with our own little fantasies, like my own for example "but they're both called 'LAINsmall'... maybe the alien is Lain viewing herself as she later does, Arisu. thus she has become Alien to herself, this is why she doesn't recognise herself." sure, i may be wrong on that theory, but still this Alien figure averts our attention as an audience to question its existence. MISDIRECTION.

I don't think it is misdirection at all, I think it is sad that you see it that way. Just because something may not be essential to the very simple message of the story, doesn't mean that it is meaningless, it doesn't mean that it is just a distraction. These things are not designed to hide the real meaning of the show from us, they are added to provide depth. Would you be happy if you could ask the creator why he used the Alien and he gave you a definite answer? He has an explanation for it after all, there is a reason behind it; we are simply left to discover our own reasons for it.

whether you agree or not with this "statement"... it's true.

So you are effectively saying that it doesn't matter what my opinions are, you are right? I suggest you wake up to the possibility that there could be a difference between what you simply believe is true, and what is actually true. That you see it as an attempt to misdirect and distract the viewer doesn't mean that it actually is. You are simply interpreting the motives of the creators of Lain, I think their motives are vastly different to what you are saying is "true".

in Lain, did you leave the anime thinking "there's nothing in Lain, this is just about Japanese and American cultural differences" or did you walk away confused or feeling you'd all these theories and explainations? if you'd not the former, then you were destracted by the symbolism and images of misdirection. on the other hand, Boogiepop's information all points towards different aspects of the overall plot that is Boogiepop.

And you are seriously misdirected if you think that "there is nothing in Lain". There is a lot in Lain, as I mentioned above, you are taking that quote out of context, in fact right there it seems you have put two different quotes together. There is no warfare in Lain, but it is "based on the sensitivity and values of the Japanese people", you won't understand it unless you watch it from that perspective. Lain is not just about Japanese and American cultural differences, the work as a whole may come from that basis, and Udea wanted to go against normal rules and standards, but there is a message to Lain, and that message is a very simple one. Lain is not just a bunch of meaningless symbolism developed to simply point out cultural differences between Japan and American, it is much more than that. If you didn't see that then I have to say that "it's your own problem", because I certainly did. It is not a failing in Lain itself.

i never said the symbolism and misdirection in Lain DETRACTED from the series. i think it adds to the series very well. yet it CERTAINLY IS misdirection.

If it distracts from the main story, it detracts from its meaning. I think it does neither. I don't think the creators tried to lead us astray and I personally wasn't by what they produced.

and it is FACT, not assumption, that the small details in the story of Boogiepop are a large addition to the real story. as it has a definite story that it is built around. even the order of the diced chronology has meaning and addition to the discovery and piecing of the puzzle.

I am sure that some small details are, but by the same token some are not either. There are any thousand different things I could choose here, what is the reason behind some characters hair colour, why are some characters taller or shorter than others, why are some people named the way they are, etc, etc, etc, etc... You seem to be trying to present a picture of "everything being connected" in BP (excuse the pun^^). It isn't. In Boggiepop you may be given the answers to some things, the reasons behind them, (just like in Lain those answers and reasons might be withheld), but like anything there will be some details that are not connected, that are just there, for no other reason than say a particular animator thought it would look cool, or the writer liked the name.

Here is my summary, because this post is long and hard to follow (I know, I wrote it ^^).

1. No anime can ever have all its little details be "meaningful" to the story.

2. On the same token because this is anime, nothing is there without a reasons (even if it is just that an animator thought something was cute).

3. In Lain, the viewer is left to find their own answers. The creating team have their "One True Answer" for the series, but these "official explanations" are kept from us. We are left to make up our own minds.

4. BP may provide more "official answers" than Lain; the creators may give definite answers more freely.

5. The degree to which you find one or the other confusing is based on your personal perception of them. "Many People" may be distracted by one or the other, but that doesn't affect the creators intentions and nor should it affect your opinion.

Finally, as I said initially, I love both Lain and Boogiepop, I think both have a complex story with a simple message, but if I had to choose between the two I would choose BP.

[DrZepp]

First let me say, I definately prefer Boogiepop over Lain -Although I still love Lain heh-

Now concerning the creators 'official' explanations: In such series like Lain there is a lot of information thrown around. And for me there were a lot of peices that seemed rather important (opposed to something like a characters hair color -as MD touched on- being unimportant) but at the same time hard to connect with other apparent plot points.

Basically, i knew there was some explanation -whether it be official or my own- but often times i couldnt see it connecting with certain other plot points... Like the drug Accella. I have often wondered how much involvement things like that had in the series, or if they were simply there to spice it up.

Most theories i have heard concerning, say, Mika seem rooted more in the persons own take on the series than actual information presented in the series itself. i.e. its almost as if these theorists are adding their own peices of information to draw a conclusion... Which i find kind of cool.

All of this is why i love Lain.

Boogiepop on the other hand i felt was more 'tidy'. The two series were done differently, but i prefer BPs way of presenting its story points and bits of information. For example, how in almost every episode you see little peices from previous, or even future episodes intertwining with the current ep... I loved that, and it gave me this feeling that everything had been carefully planned and calculated moreso than Lain.

The fact is that each veiwer is going to see things a different way right? To me Lain seems more... open. Boogiepop seems more slick yet brooding while still being rather complex.
It also had more moments where i suddenly realized how absolutely beautiful it was. Like what Toka does with the theramin (sp) at the end of the series, or how Manaka gives Miyumi her memories back for that one moment. Just thinking about it right now gives me the chills... I was touched on more of an emotional level with BP than i was with Lain, and overall i would have to say that is one of the major reasons why i prefer it.

[heart havok]

too sleepy, but if i don't reply now, i'll probably forget sometime. so just incase i do forget to give you a better response at a later date, here's something.

my suggestion was that in Lain, they intentionally "distract" {thanks for note of my spelling error} the audience to tell their story. it's quite successful in my opinion, as Lain is one of my all-time favourites, and after i got out of the anime scene, thanks to Serial Experiments Lain, i got back into anime. but i believe it's certainly their intention to use symbolism and odd imagry to distract some who may not be on the right state of mind to collect and process all of the information found in Lain. and certainly, this may get to everyone to some extent... many things that people may think are "odd" or "weird" or "bizarre" are most likely these exact distractions that the creators placed so delicately into the series.

the beauty of MISDIRECTION. where one may choose to cover a sense of truth by something much more attention-getting. something that may misguide the eye and mind to another focal point so that they have to search and find the meaning.

my main idea was that in Lain, it seems, they use MISDIRECTION to guide the audience into following the plot and peicing it together... opposite Boogiepop, in which they use overelaboration and detail to do the same: guide the audience into following the plot and peicing it together... on their own.

[MDWigs]

I really don’t see that much of a difference between the two. I don't think that Lain "misdirected" and more than BP did, or vice versa.

Can you summarise what you are saying now please? I've got conflicting ideas about what you mean, based upon what you original said and what you are saying now.

In my mind I didn't see BP as any more "detailed" than Lain, it simply answered more questions and didn't leave a lot to the viewer to figure out. Likewise I don't think the producers of Lain used misdirection to guide the viewer through the plot arc, that doesn't really make sense to me. I don't think they did anything that would take away from the understanding of the story; they simply added complexity to an inherently simple story.

[heart havok]

i'll try to summarise, but i think you're going to get the closest understanding by combining my two posts.

Summary:
in Serial Experiments Lain, we are guided thru a wonderfully structured Anime to discover a plot that's not really all that complex. a very simple and wonderful plot, it is, that touches wonderful themes and takes a new angle on the idea of 'self' and states of conscious/subconscious awarenesses. the art of this anime, i found, is the way they direct you into an understanding by curving you and throwing you around many misdirections. it is freely up to the viewer on which of these directions to understand, misunderstand, or take to the depths of their heart and mind. with so many misdirections and symbolic images, we are allowed to find our own meanings as well as a direct meaning within the coils of metaphor.

in Boogiepop Phantom, we are guided thru a quite differently structured --yet wonderful, none the less-- Anime to discover a plot that's very intwined between and within itself. this plot, on the contrary, has many more obsticles of a different kind that we, as an audience, must face and challange to fight our way to discovering the full detail of what's going on. the creators guid us thru this twisted course not only by mixing the timeline, but by throwing in little hints and pieces where they are needed; thus feeding us little bits of information along the way. these "feeding areas" are very precicely placed; in essense, we may find many small-scale elements that we'd normal figure have less to do with the plot, when in a whole for the story, they may have a much greater addition. yet, the only way to discover these {without reading the novels} is by picking at the timeline and details to piece together this large puzzle. the best example i can give of this is Scarecrow, "Panuru," and Echoes. some of the much smaller details that play a much larger role than one may perseive upon a relaxed, non-analictical viewing.

all in all, Lain is much like figuring out the meanings of a beautiful painting. while Boogiepop is more like piecing that painting together like a jigsaw puzzle.

[MDWigs]

I think I understand what you are saying now and though I don't agree with your interpretation of the different "styles" I can see how you came to that conclusion. I have a different opinion of what the styles actually are and what makes them special, but that is to be expected.

It seemed to me that before you were saying that BP gave meaning to "everything" with respect to the plot and thus was "better". I don't think it is possible to give meaning to everything and have it all connected to the plot. Now though it seems that you are simply commenting on the different styles. Whether any single person is more or less confused by the differing styles is purely based upon their perceptions of them. The styles are most assuredly different, but I don't think one is more or less inherently confusing than the other.

[heart havok]

certainly, indeed, i was just gathering on descriptions of how i perceive that the filmmakers worked, et cetera, et cetera... but this certainly is NOT what i believe makes either better than the other, as what i LOVE about them BOTH, is the ways that they can be taken in and indulged in so many different ways, shapes, Forms, et cetera, by so many different people. the differences between the stories and the ways they share their stories with us is what makes these series so amazing.

it appears to me that you're looking for a more personal view though. which case, on a more personal level, i like Boogiepop more because of my mental experience during watching. it brought me to a much more dream-like state. while i find neither of them to be "confusing" in the slightest, i found much more excitement in the interpretation and discovery i endulged into with Boogiepop. in Lain, after about 3 viewings, i'd basically come to terms with all it has to offer, and i stopped finding new things to feed off of. meanwhile, i'm still trying to discover the meanings behind many small things in Boogiepop which they hardly touch in the series. for me, there is more to find in Boogiepop than in Lain. Lain came very natural to me, while Boogiepop takes a bit more thinking. and i like that, the ways it causes me to actually analyze to figure out many characters' contributions and meanings. and indeed, this is helped by the twisted plotline, as it also gives you some excitement in finding out "who did what when?" i can see how these ramblings can deTRACT from my intended meanings, as certainly i'm typing these while tired overlayered on the fact that it's a difficult concept to write on. i'm not quite certain how to explain what i got out of them... all i can say, is that it certainly appears i'm getting a whole lot more out of these two wonderful series than most viewers.

oh, and another main reason i choose Boogiepop Phantomover Serial Experiments Lain, is its darkness, morbidness, stranger and more interesting[and more] characters, stranger series of events, less "real" circumstances, more exciting learning-points, better re-play value. also, perhaps i enjoy the themes that i personalized with better... in Lain, i found themes of isolation and question of self, and an unconditional love. while i found Boogiepop to be more opposing, and rather touching ideas of relations between people and continuous change.

[Israfel]

Well, each series having great qualities... Some sane people wouldn't dare make a judgement between the two... but what the hell!? it's friday afterall...

The first thing I recognise about Lain is the way the storyline borderlines on insanity and doesn't really seem to go over that until the end... I also think the music fits the series like a rubber glove so that's why it opened my eyes... who said you didn't need a good soundtrack on anime??? I don't know about you guys but Lain was already finished before I saw the end... (figured it out at ep 11) The ending to me was just stating the obvious that she was a part of everyone and a program etc etc etc...

Boogiepop is nothing like I have ever seen before... First thing I noticed was the strange soundtrack... Boogie music at the start I would have to say leaves a sort of eerie vibe to the atmosphere... And the scenes in the opening sequence are always scary, the sense of time in the series too is quite amazing... outcomes of some episodes not even affecting the main flow of the timeline... I'll leave the most blatently obvious to last also... The very very very complex character web... Probably one of the weirdest I have ever seen... (apart from Fruits Basket... *shudder*)... I absolutely adore every single one of them... Except for the cop... he's just a be-atch...

Seeing it's so fresh in my mental layers... I would atomatically have to say Boogiepop Phantom. And besides, why would I be going to Manifest next year as Boogiepop if I didn't love the series???

Well, now to fork out the cash for the next 2... even the DVD covers say "buy me, I will rock your world"

Congrats to the right-stuf/madman team for making a great series into a great reality for Australians.

Wow, I better stop drinking coffee

[MDWigs]

heart havok:

it appears to me that you're looking for a more personal view though.

I am not so much looking for it, rather just pointing out that your personal views about the "confusing" aspects don't necessarily apply to everyone else and as such I don't think you can categorically describe either Lain or BP as fitting into pigeonholes. I have explained my personal view of the two shows and I now understand yours, I just wanted to point out and I don't think either are inherently more or less "confusing" than the other, they are simply different, and our own personal perceptions of the shows will affect our views on the issue.

i can see how these ramblings can deTRACT from my intended meanings, as certainly i'm typing these while tired overlayered on the fact that it's a difficult concept to write on.

I understand, which is why I was carefully to avoid misinterpreting what you said. In my opinion it is always best to seek clarification on such a complex topic rather than forge blindly on and end up totally misconstruing everything someone says.

oh, and another main reason i choose Boogiepop Phantomover Serial Experiments Lain, is its darkness

As I mentioned above, that is the main reason that I prefer BP over Lain. I loved how dark it was. I prefer Lain from a "complexity" point of view. I am a coder, I understood the C code that was on Lain's blackboard, I know about the different layers in the TCP/IP model that the internet is based upon (rather than the seldom used OSI model), the technical aspect of the show appealed to me. I had witnessed similar themes before, but I liked the way they went about explaining them. I think the other thing that affects my decision is that I saw Lain a long time ago now, while I've only this year seen BoogiePop, I liked the freshness, I hadn't seen anything like it for a very long time.

[DrZepp]

Originally posted by MDWigs
I think the other thing that affects my decision is that I saw Lain a long time ago now, while I've only this year seen BoogiePop, I liked the freshness, I hadn't seen anything like it for a very long time.

hmm i feel the same about that. Its been a while since i was touched on so many levels by an anime i think... Just off the top of my head, Kare Kano was probably the last one before Boogiepop that really got under my skin.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by MDWigs
I am not so much looking for it, rather just pointing out that your personal views about the "confusing" aspects don't necessarily apply to everyone else and as such I don't think you can categorically describe either Lain or BP as fitting into pigeonholes. I have explained my personal view of the two shows and I now understand yours, I just wanted to point out and I don't think either are inherently more or less "confusing" than the other, they are simply different, and our own personal perceptions of the shows will affect our views on the issue.
i think we're pointing the same finger at eachother... backing up eachother while at the same time we're agreeing without knowing it. you just said what i've been trying to say. so i don't know what else to add to here, other than that i too have been saying that i think they are different and i don't find them "confusing" {which is why i put it in quotes} in the slightest, but i love them for their many qualities that make other viewers believe the series to be "confusing."

Originally posted by MDWigs
I understand, which is why I was carefully to avoid misinterpreting what you said. In my opinion it is always best to seek clarification on such a complex topic rather than forge blindly on and end up totally misconstruing everything someone says.
indeed, always better to question rather than make assumptions. i love that when people do that in a discussion.

Originally posted by MDWigs
As I mentioned above, that is the main reason that I prefer BP over Lain. I loved how dark it was. I prefer Lain from a "complexity" point of view. I am a coder, I understood the C code that was on Lain's blackboard, I know about the different layers in the TCP/IP model that the internet is based upon (rather than the seldom used OSI model), the technical aspect of the show appealed to me. I had witnessed similar themes before, but I liked the way they went about explaining them. I think the other thing that affects my decision is that I saw Lain a long time ago now, while I've only this year seen BoogiePop, I liked the freshness, I hadn't seen anything like it for a very long time.
indeed, that is one of the many things i picked out on Lain that i loved.. it definitely goes into great detail in the underlying Wired world. i saw many literal and figurative references to many things such as Firewalls, OSs, and even computer monitors and chatrooms that they took to many different levels. but i must also agree, Boogiepop is also fresher for similar reasons... which indeed also pulls it to more of a liking.

by the way, Zepp... i've been thinking of looking into Kare Kano... we're going to have to discuss that on chat sometime.

[Shadow War]

I have now seen all of Lain and Boogiepop. I think I will have to lean towards Boogiepop. There is just so much more to take in. There is more characters and Lain is really only about Lain. Not that is a bad thing. Over the past 2 days I have been just watching Boogiepop all the time. Not in any order, I am understanding alot more. I feel that there is nothing distracting that is not supposed to be there. In Lain that is questionable, it is up to you to come up with some opinions on who Lain is, etc.

After seeing Boogiepop all the way through, all the previous episodes have extra meaning. I still love Lain but now I know that Boogiepop gives you more answers than Lain ever will.

I think that what makes Boogiepop seem confusing at first, is the amount of characters that we are introduced to. Once you get to know the characters it does make alot more sense. Lain gives you more questions than answers. I have enjoyed watching both series.

[Nire Jnis]

So boogiepop phantom is good?! Because I've been debating whether or not I should buy the DVD's!

[Drizzten]

I'll post a reply when I see Boogiepop. I ordered the set over the weekend. :D

[kindred350]

heart havok how could you say.That boogiepop was more confusing than lain.That in boogiepop all you have to do is just put together the pieces.That they give you already,and there you go,all of the questions are anwsers.But in lain you had to mostly find out all of the anwsers,by yourself.

[kindred350]

I think that lain is better because.Lain was more confusing,for one and second after you find everthing out.You will be shock at what u found out.Plus the plot was deeping once u find everything out to. Because lain was faniznate,with all of this computer call,and how that made a story.With computers and stuff.

[kindred350]

Lain is better and that is that. For one lain was more fantist, how they put computer terms and it and put it in to is own little world and the story was great to with lain being a program for the protco and everything. Plus if you say boogiepop was more confusing then lain, then you have to be blind and stuip because boogiepop give you all the anwsers you need. All they did was put everything out of order, ( for explain episode 4 happen before episode 2 so in other words all you have to do is just put the puzzle together and you have the story right there. With lain they did not really tell you anything, you had to almost figure everything out yourself.

[Mav]

You seem to be talking to yourself here. Maybe you should seek professional help?

[kindred350]

I did not relized that I post some many, because it has been a while since I been on this board.

[Drizzten]

I found Lain to be more entertaining than Boogiepop. I'm more willing to re-watch Lain and search for meaning than I am with Boogiepop.

[sutarikun]

Personally I haven't seen all of lain (only saw vol. 3, I think... or was it 2? anyway...) nor have I seen all of Boogiepop, but they're both equally good in different respects. From what I understand, the lain anime isn't nearly as dark as the psx game version of it (which I wish was out in america simply because it would be a nice addition to the world of lain) but that's not to say it isn't dark and gloomy. But it's not meant to be scary or anything, it's meant to make you think.

Boogiepop is supposed to be darker, and although you might be able to "put together the pieces" of this story with more ease than the pieces in lain's story, Boogiepop teaches more lessons within its walls. Where lain asked questions, Boogiepop tried to give answers and things to think about on our own.

I think I would probably relate to lain better, as my life is somewhat more like hers (on the *extremely general* level, that computers have really changed our lives and made us into slightly different people) but I like boogiepop as it is.