Does Toka know?

[Shadow War]

*Possible Spoilers*



Do you think that Toka knows that she is Boogiepop? Boogiepop knows about Toka, but does it work the other way. Nagi seems to know from the final episode, but does anyone else know?

[heart havok]

i've reason to believe: in a way, yes.

our evidence of this, is in the final episode, when Nagi says {not exact quote, this is just off memory} "tell her 'hi' for me."

Toka just nods as though she knows exactly what Nagi's talking about. i don't think Toka knows until this episode though.

[Shadow War]

I also believe that in the last episode she knows. But one wonders how long has she known? Would her parents suspect something?

[DrZepp]

Also we see Toka buy the frikken theramin when shes with Suema. Then later we see Boogiepop place the theramin in the sewers...
For gods sake, if she doesnt know about Boogiepop then thats the biggest coincidence ever.

Its a little more ambiguous before though. I mean, are we to assume that just because Toka isnt in the Boogiepop uniform shes not Boogiepop? Thats the tough part. I justify her not being in Boogiepop mode when she buys the theramin because she was with Suema. But take for example in the first episode when we see Toka brushing by the people on the streets with her big duffle bag -containing the boogiepop outfit-...

[sunset]

IMHO, if Boogiepop is such a strong personality that she can override Toka´s at will, then it´s safe to say that she could influence Toka´s behaviour and perception of things around her.
Proof of this is the fact that Toka goes everywhere with that bag under her arm without questioning why she has it or what´s inside.
Boogiepop must be whispering to her not to pay attention to it.
She may act on a subconscient level, making her sometimes do things on automatic without realising it (the theramin incident could be one of those).

So, Toka may suspect that there´s someone in there but never really dug into it.

[bjamieson]

i've reason to believe: in a way, yes.

our evidence of this, is in the final episode, when Nagi says {not exact quote, this is just off memory} "tell her 'hi' for me."

Toka just nods as though she knows exactly what Nagi's talking about. i don't think Toka knows until this episode though.


Not exactly, really. The comment is said not about Boogiepop, but instead about Akane whom Nagi saved in Paisley Park. Not only does Nagi look at Akane as she says this, but the Boogiepop personality is male (or sexless). Of course there is also an implied "Say hi to Boogiepop", which Toka/Boogiepop nods knowingly in response to, but the overt phrase refers to Akane.

[MeMyself]

Boogiepop is male? If so, he must be kind of gay. That would be the most effeminate male I have ever seen.

Toka knows about Boogiepop. We see her taking that coat from Karoda which transforms her. When Nagi tells her to say goodbye to her, she is obviously referring to Boogiepop.

[Cookiepop]

Miysahita doesn't entirely know that she is Boogiepop. Boogiepop is a separate personality that exists inside of Miyashita Touka, but that has some unknown link to her at the same time. For instance, Miyashita deletes her memories of her time as Boogiepop, and creates explanations for the blanks in her memory. Whenever something threatens her blissful ignorance, she automatically forgets it, or if the situation is dangerous Boogiepop takes over. Boogiepop was born at a time of traumatic stress for Miyashita, and it seems to arise whenever there is some life changing force abroad in the world. Miyashita's boyfriend, who has talked to Boogiepop, has the belief that Boogiepop is merely a possibility of Miyashita Touka, what she might and can be, and creates an alternate persona to do all the things that need to be done. So Miyashita Touka knows on a very subconcious level that she is Boogiepop. Also, in the fifth novel, when Boogiepop faces the King of Distortion who appears as a person's buried memories. Through this, Miyashita is able to converse directly with Boogiepop. I don't know at which time this occurs in relation to Boogiepop Phantom, or if she forgot the event.

As for who else knows that she is Boogiepop: Kirima Nagi (they have met several times), Niitoki Kei (was school committe president at time of pillar of light, and helped in a minor fashion defeat the Manticore) and Takeda Keijii (Miyashita's boyfriend) are the only ones I know of.

In the last episode, when Miyashita buys the Theremin, it is Miyashita that buys it and not Boogiepop. She is also not aware of the real reason why she is buying it. She will have invented a reason, and then Boogiepop took over and placed it in the underground tunnel. Miyashita doesn't have to be in the uniform to be Boogiepop. It's more of an aesthetic and symbolic thing.

[MeMyself]

Let's not get the manga confused with the anime. The anime obviously follows its own storyline.

In the anime, Toka does know she is Boggiepop. She consciously takes the Boogiepop costume with her when she goes for that test in the final episode. It may through one off that as Boogiepop Toka speaks of herself in the third person. But she is aware of what she is doing. And at the end, Toka silently acknowleges she is Boogiepop when she reacts to Nagi's request to say goodbye.

[Cookiepop]

Let's not get the manga confused with the anime. The anime obviously follows its own storyline.

The anime may follow an original storyline, but many of the characters are already defined in the original novels.

In the anime, Toka does know she is Boggiepop. She consciously takes the Boogiepop costume with her when she goes for that test in the final episode. It may through one off that as Boogiepop Toka speaks of herself in the third person. But she is aware of what she is doing. And at the end, Toka silently acknowleges she is Boogiepop when she reacts to Nagi's request to say goodbye.

Based on the novels, Miyashita Touka doesn't know that she is Boogiepop and I see no reason to doubt this. Miyashita Touka often carries the bag around with her, in fact she keeps it in her room without ever looking into it. Although Miyashita Touka is not consciously aware that she is Boogiepop, she is aware of it on a very subconscious level. She comes up with a subconscious reason why she should carry the sports bag, or why she should do any of the Boogiepop related activities she does such as buy the Theremin, though she remains blissfully unaware of the true nature of her actions.

[MeMyself]

Again, the anime follows its own scenario. If the producers of the anime had wanted it ime to follow the manga more closely, they would have done it.

[Cookiepop]

Again, the anime follows its own scenario. If the producers of the anime had wanted it ime to follow the manga more closely, they would have done it.

And again, although it follows its own story, it has the same Miyashita Touka. There are about 14 Boogiepop novels, and in only one of them is she ever consciously aware that she is Boogiepop.

My point is that Miyashita Touka does several things in the novels that would normally lead one to suspect that she knows she is Boogiepop, however it is made pretty clear that she forcefully forgets the fact that she is Boogiepop so that she can live in ignorance. I mean why after six years of being Boogiepop would she suddenly decide to start remembering that she is Boogiepop when she's spent all the time in between maintaining her own ignorance?

I think to settle this we'll need to wait until the fifth book is translated.

[MeMyself]

The manga does sound more interesting than the anime. Just the same, the producers of the anime still decided to develop their own approach different than what is in the book.

As I recall listening to the commentary on the last DVD, Toka does know that she is Boogiepop in the series.

I mean why after six years of being Boogiepop would she suddenly decide to start remembering that she is Boogiepop when she's spent all the time in between maintaining her own ignorance?

It may have happened in the manga, but that has nothing to do with the anime series.

Many series have different plot developments and characterizations that are different from the mangas. I had a long discussion about this elsewhere over the series Gunslinger Girl. Somebody pointed out a major difference in the ending of the series and what happens in the manga -- although he admitted the ending in the series was better.

[Cookiepop]

Just the same, the producers of the anime still decided to develop their own approach different than what is in the book.

I always got the impression however that the anime was very faithful to the novels upon which they're based, the only difference between them being what happened at the Pillar of Light. Also, it's not as if Boogiepop Phantom is an adaptation of a novel/manga as is so often the case in anime. Boogiepop Phantom is an original story that is designed to fit in with the rest of the novels, but whether the author acknowledges the events of the series as official canon or not isn't known.

As I recall listening to the commentary on the last DVD, Toka does know that she is Boogiepop in the series.

The DVD commentary is wrong at times.

I'll post up a quote from the first novel tomorrow to illustrate my point about Touka not knowing she is Boogiepop.

[MeMyself]

The DVD commentary is wrong at times.


So the people who actually worked on the series don't know that much about it? :confused:

I'll post up a quote from the first novel tomorrow to illustrate my point about Touka not knowing she is Boogiepop.

But I'm not talking about the novel. I am talking about the series. :rolleyes:

[Cookiepop]

So the people who actually worked on the series don't know that much about it?

They get a couple of things wrong:

1.They say Manaka can see visions/memories of the future, yet she never does. The point in the commentary where this is explained is when Manaka gives the memory of the Manticore and Saotome killing the girl in red. But that had already happened. Therefore it is not a future memory.

2.The commentary also says that the Manticore Phantom and Boogiepop Phantom are former lovers forced to fight each other. This is wrong since Saotome is dead, it is inly his body which continues on. And it is the Manticore itself which inhabits that body.

Those are the two ones I can remember.

But I'm not talking about the novel. I am talking about the series.

In my opinion, talking about characters of the series also means talking about characters from the novels since they are one and the same. I also regard the novels as the definitive source on questions regarding Boogiepop. I mean the anime is a continuation of the first novel. How else would we know so much about the Manticore and Dr Kisugi if it wasn't for the novels?

"Suddenly, Nagi was standing in front of Miyashita-san.
"Hmm. So you're Miyashita Touka." she said. It seemed that this was her first time meeting this side of her.
"Y-yes..." Miyashita-san said, nodding in a cute little voice as far removed from Boogiepop's boyish tones as possible.
"I'm Kirima. Nice to meet you," nagi said, and held out her hand.
To an outsider, it must have looked like the school delinquent was out to get her.
"Hey!" Takeda-sempai said, stepping up to protect her.
Bt Miyashita-san shook ker kead. "You too," she said, shaking Nagi's hand. Perhaps she understood this unconsciously as well." - Boogiepop and Others

""She doesn't know," he had said, standing on the school roof, in the light of the setting sun. "If something threatens to erode her foothold of ignorance, she instantly ceases to know that as well. To erase the anomaly caused by not meeting you yesterday, she will have deleted all memories of the date from her mind."" - Boogiepop on Miyashita Touka, Boogiepop and Others

So you see, Miyashita Touka does many things that might lead some to suspect that she knows she is Boogiepop, but according to the novels this is not the case, so I see no need to change that opinion just for the series.

[MeMyself]

I don't remember those comments in the commentary. Then again, I did not listen to all the commentaries. I will listen to them all next time I rent the series.

As for the other stuff, there is nothing in the series that refers to any of that. Again the producers of the series went their own way. I hear all the time about how animes differ from the mangas. It is not so unusual. That is all I have to say on the subject.

[Cookiepop]

As for the other stuff, there is nothing in the series that refers to any of that. Again the producers of the series went their own way. I hear all the time about how animes differ from the mangas. It is not so unusual. That is all I have to say on the subject.

Then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[MeMyself]

They say Manaka can see visions/memories of the future, yet she never does. The point in the commentary where this is explained is when Manaka gives the memory of the Manticore and Saotome killing the girl in red. But that had already happened. Therefore it is not a future memory.


Come to think of it, I do think I remember that comment now. I am not sure it is incorrect since the series does not occur in chronological order. But I don't remember that exact scene that clearly.

Eventually I am going to give the series another watch.

[Cookiepop]

Come to think of it, I do think I remember that comment now. I am not sure it is incorrect since the series does not occur in chronological order. But I don't remember that exact scene that clearly.

They do make the mistake. I've triple checked. The Manticore kills the girl in red before the pillar of light (episode 4) and Hisashi is shown the vision of this event after the pillar of light, yet the commentators say it is a future memory.

They don't make many mistakes, but this is one of them.

[bjamieson]

So the people who actually worked on the series don't know that much about it? :confused:

This is way after the fact, but if you're speaking of the English Language dub director's commentary - no, he is not a direct authority on the series. Anime or otherwise. His commentary is very good, especially for from the perspective of an American licensing company standpoint, but the fact that their job was merely to adapt an existing show into an English language version says nothing of his competency in regards to the actual *creative* production of Boogiepop Phantom. Only the Japanese staff can speak with authority over what is what when it comes to the intricacies of the plot. It'd be like if the person responsible for dubbing, say, 2001: A Space Odyssey into Japanese were to record a commentary. The commentary may be good in many respects, but it would hardly be as authoritative as a commentary from Kubrick himself (or any of the people actually involved in the original creation of the film).

[heart havok]

Having read the first three novels, I fully retract my previous statements in support of Cookiepop's arguments.

In maintaining Cookipop's perspective, I also argue that the contents of Boogiepop Phantom respects the original work (the novels, not manga) to such a great degree that it should be well considered a definitive source. Boogiepop Phantom takes place within an untold part of the Boogiepop time-world structure, not an alternate universe.

Touka clearly makes the sub(un?)conscious choice to erase all memory of Boogiepop. I expect that this would include the memory of having a Boogiepop costume in her gym-bag; thus, the bag would be more habitual than anything for Touka, herself.

Even if Nagi is, indeed, referring to Boogiepop at the end of the series, it could very well be Boogiepop himself who is nodding in response. This would not be the first time, in novel or anime, that Boogiepop has surfaced in a moment to respond/react to some person/thing.

I haven't watched the series in a long time, so I cannot truly comment on whether or not Nagi is referring to Akane. From recollection, however, I do not recall any reason that we would have to support that Nagi would believe Touka to be a valuable resource for delivering a message to Akane. Equally, I recall no reason within Nagi's direct interaction with Akane to support reason for her to communicate with her after the fact.


As far as the English production's commentary, bjamieson is absolutely correct. The English production team generally has no more information than we, the audience do. Even though, in some cases, the English production team gets to work with the originating team/creator(s) or ask direct questions concerning plot and/or character and/or theme, etc... This still does not go to say that they properly interpreted or understood the (often limited) answers to said inquiries.

[DraniX]

I'm sure 'Cookiepop' appreciates your retraction. One year later.

[heart havok]

I'm sure 'Cookiepop' appreciates your retraction. One year later.
Why not? I sure appreciated Cookiepop's insight one year later.

On the other hand, I'm sure Eva2000 appreciates you trolling someone who's using this anime discussion board to discuss anime.

[Cookiepop]

I haven't watched the series in a long time, so I cannot truly comment on whether or not Nagi is referring to Akane. From recollection, however, I do not recall any reason that we would have to support that Nagi would believe Touka to be a valuable resource for delivering a message to Akane. Equally, I recall no reason within Nagi's direct interaction with Akane to support reason for her to communicate with her after the fact.

I watched the series again recently, and Kirima is definitely refering to Akane in this scene, because the camera focuses on Akane after Kirima asks Miyashita to say hello to "her" for Kirima. Additionally, Boogiepop is typically addressed as a male, so referencing Boogiepop as a she wouldn't make any sense.

The point of this dialogue is not for Kirima to relay an actual message using Miyashita to Akane, but for Kirima to analyze whether Miyashita had any knowledge of what occurred over the series. The fact that Miyashita didn't question Kirima regarding her meaning highlights Miyashita's very subconscious awareness of Boogiepop.

As far as the English production's commentary, bjamieson is absolutely correct. The English production team generally has no more information than we, the audience do. Even though, in some cases, the English production team gets to work with the originating team/creator(s) or ask direct questions concerning plot and/or character and/or theme, etc... This still does not go to say that they properly interpreted or understood the (often limited) answers to said inquiries.

Exactly. I've begun noticing even more mistakes made by the English production team. Manticore Phantom is erroniously referred to as Manticore and Saotome at varying points throughout the series, and the character notes even explicitly identify Saotome as Manticore. But generally I forgive them, because they otherwise did a stellar job.

[heart havok]

Fancy seeing you here, Cookiepop.
Additionally, Boogiepop is typically addressed as a male, so referencing Boogiepop as a she wouldn't make any sense.

The point of this dialogue is not for Kirima to relay an actual message using Miyashita to Akane, but for Kirima to analyze whether Miyashita had any knowledge of what occurred over the series. The fact that Miyashita didn't question Kirima regarding her meaning highlights Miyashita's very subconscious awareness of Boogiepop.
First remark noted, but these are definitely the stronger points of your argument. And, point accepted, though I'll keep an eye out to see this perspective myself next time I watch. ^_~
Exactly. I've begun noticing even more mistakes made by the English production team. Manticore Phantom is erroniously referred to as Manticore and Saotome at varying points throughout the series, and the character notes even explicitly identify Saotome as Manticore. But generally I forgive them, because they otherwise did a stellar job.I absolutely forgive them because I absolutely agree and stellar is a great adjective for the English production team's work on this series. One of the few dubs I am willing to watch, even (the sound has a great mix as well). I wish they got the original team like the FLCL commentary, though. How fantastic would that be?



By the way, two new Boogiepop novels coming out soon to look forward to. Maybe we'll see some more action here in the next couple months.

[Cookiepop]

Fancy seeing you here, Cookiepop.

Yeah I know I haven't been on this board for a long while now, and the strangest thing is I don't know why. I was getting ready to post a long-winded counterargument regarding an important subject of debate then raging but I just never got around to completing it, and for some reason didn't return at all. Life's funny isn't it?

One of the few dubs I am willing to watch, even (the sound has a great mix as well).

For the most part I think the dub is exceptional (I never get tired of Carol Jacobanis as Dr Kisugi) , but then I am also reminded of Poom Poom and the Oikawa siblings, who sound so pale and emotionless compared to their Japanese counterparts. And I'm someone who actually prefers dubs over subs. One of the English productions mistakes was completely miscasting Poom Poom, since the young Oikawa Mamoru and Poom Poom should have the same voice, but are given two different voices in the English dub. The sound design is also excellent, although one minor sound effect is omitted in the English dub, which is Manticore's scream at the beginning of episode 1. Another difference to note is that in the Right Stuf International releases, they washed out the colour of the bloody scenes leaving them black and white, which didn't so much annoy as it did perplex. Why remove the colour of the blood, when this is clearly maerketed towards a mature audience? These minor grievances don't impact upon my enjoyment of a brilliant series with an otherwise fantastic English production, but they do prevent the English production from being perfect rather than just really really good.

I wish they got the original team like the FLCL commentary, though. How fantastic would that be?

That would be awesome. Even more awesome than that would be to have Kouhei Kadono be a guest on the commentary. Alternatively I could just listen to Carol Jacobanis do an entire commentary in Dr Kisugi's voice.

By the way, two new Boogiepop novels coming out soon to look forward to. Maybe we'll see some more action here in the next couple months.

I take it you are referring to Boogiepop in the Mirror and Boogiepop Overdrive? Those books won't be out for a long time yet, and depend entirely upon the success of Boogiepop at Dawn which was released last Tuesday. I ordered it from Amazon, so I'll be getting some more Boogiepop (and Dr Kisugi) in the next few weeks. Yay!

[John Faulkner]

Yeah I know I haven't been on this board for a long while now, and the strangest thing is I don't know why. I was getting ready to post a long-winded counterargument regarding an important subject of debate then raging but I just never got around to completing it, and for some reason didn't return at all. Life's funny isn't it?
Well, this is a coincidence: it so happened I've recently started posting here as well after a while (not as long as you though). I can't quite remember what you were debating about - something about U.S. foreign policy and absolute morals - but I do remember being throughly entertained by the discussion.

But another reason for my interjection is just to let you know that we are having a 'Town Meeting' to discuss ways to improve posting activity at AB. The context is that given the recent brand-spanking-new style makeover Eva2k has given to these boards, this is a golden opportunity to get our heads together and get some grassroots action going to boost activity. The link is:

http://www.animeboards.com/showthread.php?t=61086

Your participation could be crucial.

Maybe we'll see some more action here in the next couple months.
And we would like to extend the invitation to you as well, heart havok. This Town Meeting is a great opportunity to maximise the probability of seeing more action here on these forums in the next couple of months. Already, there have been many emotional responses. We see that you already show signs of being a great Forum Revolutionary who can inspire great discussions - as evidenced here and in the Evangelion discussions forum. Such leadership is eagerly sought in the new initiatives being discussed right now at:

http://www.animeboards.com/showthread.php?t=61086