Putting the puzzle together [spoilers]

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

A few days ago I finished this series.

uhm.. ???????


Sorry but I am one of those brought up with television that gives u all the answers and everything by the end of the film, not giving glimpses of stuff and not thoroughly explaining them to such a degree that even an idiot could understand. Don't get me wrong, I like Boogiepop Phantom and as far as confusing goes, it has nothing on series like SEL. But I still cant quite wrap my mind around what exactly happened. Here's my understanding(?).


There is a secret organisation watching the world. This organisation detected that some children were evolving, and sent a man eater to the city to destroy them(?). The man eater was in a girl, then ate Saotome. His name is manticore(?). A little girl saw a man in pain (the detective) and for some reason put his cloak on, and became some sort of strange girl, who calls herself 'boogiepop'.

5 years later boogiepop kills the manticore/man eater and a light spreads all over the city because it reached total evolution. This light acts as a catalyst for the other 'composite' beings and they start to evolve too. 1 month later another man eater is about (th one that imitates the cop). now there is the manticore, the new man eater, and a girl called nagi kirima who is after the two. but some sort of spirit thing follows the manitcore around trying to save children by storing their bodies below the city to wait for the rest of humanity to reach evolution. the spirit calls itself boogiepop phantom because it knows it is only a ghost of the boogiepop girl. Manticore escapes the city inside some sort of pseudo detective guy and then boogiepop gets him. the end.


I know this sounds really simplified, but that's cos I find it increasingly difficult to focus on details and remember stuff. hell, I can barely remember any names. I dont even know wtf a 'boogiepop' is, except that the name sounds anything BUT intimidating when said in a japanese accent. anyone wanna give me the clear picture of the events? in particular, the ones we arent shown? The ones from when Saotome died?

[GigaSheep]

i'm working on a website that should answer all your questions. stay tuned!

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

have I in recent time told you how much u suck? *shakes fist*

hehe, no but seriously. if I wanted to read websites I'd get off my ass and look for em. I kinda like discussing it with my fellow anime slaves.

[DrZepp]

Damn... well, you have some grasp on the series it looks like, but a few things just need to be filled in.

Ehh... it might be easier if you asked specific questions you had or something, i started writing a post but then i realized it would take me ages to complete. So heres a little bit....

There is the Towa Organization: a group whose intention is to stop change in the world. A main theme in BP seems to be the opposition of stasis vs change.

Out of every ten thousand or so kids, a few are 'special'. They are evolved children, and the Towa Organization obviously knows of them and wants to get rid of them.

Some key characters:

Echoes- He... or 'it' plays a pretty significant role in BP. He is the highest form of human consciousness (or evolution), and he basically sees all time and space as one solid image -instead of being broken up into single moments recalled by memory-. I think for Echoes there is no past, present, or future, because he can see everything in a grander light.
I got the impression that he was somehow contained by the Towa Organization, and a 'twin' or copy of him was created. That twin is the Manticore.

Manaka- The butterfly girl... Her mother gave birth to her as a bastard child, and due to 'complications' (which arent what they seem) she lost the ability to store new memories. The whole ordeal was pretty shameful to the family, so Manaka went to live in secrecy with her grandmother, in hopes that no one would know she was even born.
To simplify a somewhat more complicated story (which you might have picked up on from just watching the series) when the 'light' incident happened, Echoes conciousness was spread through the city, and Echoes basically entered Manakas body.
This gave her the ability to see memories, past and future like pictures or movie reels... She released these 'memories' (some of which were yet to happen) as butterflies.

Anyway... thats a good enough segue into the light incident. Heres my account:

Originally posted by DrZepp

In the episode where we see Manaka give Kishida (who is really Kuroda) that 'memory' of him kneeling down and Boogiepop whispering something in his ear, Kishida has no recollection of the memory. I beleive at that point -in the memory- he was inhabited by Echoes. I cant remember if it actually said this in the series, if i heard it on the directors commentary, or if i read it somewhere, but the memory is supposedly Boogiepop urging Echoes on to track down his 'evil twin' the Manticore.
I do think that Echoes was searching for Manticore, and i think this is what led him to the roof top where the light scene took place.
The others are slightly easier to place on the scene. Boogiepop could have either been trailing Echoes or Minaka, eitherway she was hunting down Manticore as well i beleive. Minaka and Saotome probably arrived together, only to be confronted by Boogiepop and or Echoes.
Nagi was most likely attracted to the scene by her little electromagnetic compass thing.

It ends up with Boogiepop hanging Minaka/Manticore with her cord, Nagi slashing Kuroda which releases Echoes, and Saotome running towards Echoes -in the form of 'the light'- as hes being released.

I think there are a couple theories that could be thrown around as to why Saotome ran towards the light. Personally i think Saotome was a composite human at the time... or at least something like that. If so, he might have known what would happen if Echoes conciousness was spread throughout the city... So maybe Saotome was actually trying to contain Echoes in himself by jumping forward, instead of letting it be spread throughout the city. Instead of going as planned, Saotomes 'being' could have been integrated into the light and via the light Manticore got into him when it fled from Minaka.

As we know, when Echoes was released into the city it resulted in the children evolving rapidly. This is what i assume Saotome and any other composite human would want to prevent.


Ok... ill stop there for now. I need to collect my own thoughts as well, but i suck at organizing stuff in text.

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

mmm, it is certainly a very hard series to condense isnt it.

Whilst watching it i usualy have an excellent picture of everything, but I wrote that post like 4 days after finishing the series and so yeh.. so much I couldnt hold. I cant get the entire picture into my head. I gotta break it down into components.


What you said about Echoes is interesting though, because I always got confused by the whole echoes/minaka thing. I thought they mighta been one and the same. But Minaka is already dead isnt she? I mean, she was killed, then echoes entered her body and more or less converted 'minaka' into an echoes (by showing her the world) and the corporation then silenced her by only making her able to repeat what other people say, ay?

[DrZepp]

Yea thats the basic idea... I just realized something that might have been confusing in my first post. Manaka and Minaka arent the same person (wasnt sure if you knew or not) Manakas the butterfly girl -obviously- and Minaka is the original Manticore, who Boogiepop Phantom based its image after.


Originally posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki

I mean, she was killed, then echoes entered her body and more or less converted 'minaka' into an echoes (by showing her the world)

Yea, Manaka was killed, and Echoes conciousness brought her back... Personally i dont think she became Echoes but rather he planted himself inside her. I only say that because she seems to show some of her original self when she returns her mothers memories for the moment and stuff (i love that scene).

Originally posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki

and the corporation then silenced her by only making her able to repeat what other people say, ay?

Im trying to think.... I know i remember that scene, but i think they were talking about when Echoes host was Kuroda (this would be in the '5 years ago' timeframe)
Eitherway, it doesnt really matter, considering the fact still stands that if Manaka was able to speak freely with the knowledge that Echoes has inside of her, anyone who listened would probably explode or something hah.

In that one scene they did make it sound like the Organization was putting a restriction on Kuroda -who was carrying echoes- but i guess that restriction either carried over to Manaka, or it just happens when Echoes is brought into anyone directly.

The other thing i heard was that the voice over that explained the restriction with Echoes inside Kuroda was actually Echoes himself talking, and not some lab people at Towa.

[Shadow War]

I know what you mean about the series is a little hard to get your head around at first, but watch it again, watch the commentary and you might understand it all a little more. It is not a series to be taken lightly. When you see all the connections you will be more amazed at the series.

After I finished the series first time through I watched the whole series about 3-4 times again. Live it, breathe it and you will understand it.

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

ohh yeh, the Minaka Manaka thing. mmm, yeh I know who each character is by face, just not so much by name.


So was the light the dude evolving the final stage, or was it him dying and entering a new form of afterlife?

Did anyone else get the feeling that Nagi Kirima is a bit of a nobody in the series? She isnt evolved due to that drug, she doesnt seem to save anyone (Boogiepop and Boogiepop Phantom seem to do that), and she provides no answers. In fact her only attempt at doing ANYTHING, was disabled by boogiepop phantom with the destruction of the mobile phone bomb thing.

[DrZepp]

Originally posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki

So was the light the dude evolving the final stage, or was it him dying and entering a new form of afterlife?

Echoes already was the final stage of evolution i would say... Im not sure if he could traditionally 'die' or not, but rather after being released from Kuroda he connected with the closest shell, or host, which was Manaka. Thats how i saw it at least. Almost like a parasite.


Originally posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Did anyone else get the feeling that Nagi Kirima is a bit of a nobody in the series? She isnt evolved due to that drug, she doesnt seem to save anyone (Boogiepop and Boogiepop Phantom seem to do that), and she provides no answers. In fact her only attempt at doing ANYTHING, was disabled by boogiepop phantom with the destruction of the mobile phone bomb thing.

Yea, i can see where your coming from. Thats partially a reason why i thought Nagis dad was with the Towa Organization before he died... *cough*
Anyway, i think Nagis purpose in the series is basically to relay some of the story to the audience. A lot of the little intricate connections between episodes come via Nagi, and she seems to be a constant throughout. Really, her task seems so hopeless at times, but she still carries on.
On the other hand shes a good compliment to Boogiepop, who i think represents the more ambiguous side of the story -Or at least its not as black and white as what Nagi is doing-

If you want to really break it down, we could ask the question... If Nagi wasnt in the story, would there be a Boogiepop?

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

My answer is yes. Minaka was the one who put on the cape and created the alter-ego known as Boogiepop, therefore i believe boogiepop would still be there without Kirima. However I dont know the real relationship between Saotome and Kirima, so I might be missing a big piece of the picture here.

[DrZepp]

Originally posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
My answer is yes. Minaka was the one who put on the cape and created the alter-ego known as Boogiepop, therefore i believe boogiepop would still be there without Kirima. However I dont know the real relationship between Saotome and Kirima, so I might be missing a big piece of the picture here.

just to clarify... Toka was the one who put the cape on and became Boogiepop. Remembering the names is a -----, isnt it?

Anyway, the Boogiepop costume came from the Towa agent 'scarecrow'... aka Shinpei Kuroda (the dude in the intro).
Now I think Kuroda was killed by another Towa agent for his insurrection- which included him acting as Echoes host and/or giving Nagi the 'vaccine' to stop her evolution.

Im just not sure how directly his assasination was associated with giving Nagi the vaccine, if at all.
I need a god damn time line for Kuroda...

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

rather than kill all the composite children, why not just vaccinate em all?

Was Saotome good or bad? Or was he just weird, then became possessed by a bad being?

So there is Toka, Minaka and Manaka I am mistaking eh?

Toka = girl at the end who is half boogiepop?
Minaka = Daughter who remembers only what is going on?
Manaka = daughter who was killed, but possessed by echoes?

Fkn havin all them children's stories in there makes it confusing. add the occasional alter-ego and possession into all of it and it's just ------! lol

[GigaSheep]

Toka = nice girl/boogiepop
Minako = girl who was manticore/was boogiepop phantom's face
Manaka = girl with butterflies/ressurected by echoes

hope this helps

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

So which episode was Minako in? Cos she is the only one Im having trouble figuring out now.

[DrZepp]

Originally posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
So which episode was Minako in? Cos she is the only one Im having trouble figuring out now.

From my memory, episode 4. That particular episode takes place a while before the light incident, and i believe it shows Minako and Soatome walk into the resturant at one point... Also in that episode it shows them selling Type-S, and Minako is the one who eats the type-s dealer (Sunami... girl in the red glasses).

Hmmm... other than that she is shown in the flashback scenes of the light incident, being strangled with a wire by Boogiepop.

Some people confuse Minako with Nagi, because she does kind of look like her. If you go back and check out episode 4 with her in mind you should be able to it out though.

[GigaSheep]

correct. plus, there is no character called MINaka.

(only minako + manaka)

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

SO why doesnt Toka go running around killing people until the end? WHy did boogiepop phantom have to do it in her place?

[GigaSheep]

uhhh....

toka always does! boogiepop herself is pretty violent.

phantom DOES NOT kill anyone!!!

she saves the kids by keeping them under the city.

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

I specifically recall the phantom introcuding herself right after putting a cable through manticore's head. Sure, he didnt die, but that is the sort of thing I attribute to the phantom. She also went after that annoying pied piper kid. the only thing that Toka-pop did was stop phantom from killing echoes/butterfly girl and killng that dude at the end. Everything else was phantom going around saving kids and dealing with the baddy phantoms :-)

This is my seeing of it at any rate.

[GigaSheep]

no.

the cable-through-head was toka boogiepop, not phantom.

it was also toka boogiepop that killed dr.kisugi five years ago, ending the serial murders.

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

Originally posted by GigaSheep
no.

the cable-through-head was toka boogiepop, not phantom.

it was also toka boogiepop that killed dr.kisugi five years ago, ending the serial murders.

I dont believe this to be true, because when the cable went through the head, the character introduced herself and said that her face was chosen at randome etc etc.

[GigaSheep]

that's not the case- you must be getting mixed up. rewatch episode1. the only thing boogiepop/toka says in the cable scene is that she killed Saotome.

The talk about the random face and the 'night of the light' occurs only in episode 8 where Nagi and Kuroda run into Boogiepop Phantom.