The Powerlines

[Wolfpac]

What's with the strong presence of the power lines???
The Power lines and the strong hum that goes along with it, seems to be a common theme in this series. Does it suppose to represent the Wired or something or the fact that they are living in a "Wired" age. I think there is some meaning behind them, but I just can't figure out what.

[iwakura]

There are few levels of meaning going on here...

PLOT SPOILER



For the storyline, the intelligence of the Internet extends beyond servers. For Computer Science theorists, AI is limited to the processors on servers, so that gives a hint that Lain is something beyond a computer program. Her powers extend to any thing wired via telephone, electrical, probably optical, and perhaps even radio/microwave links.

The hum fits more with the metaphore that the hidden story is about the problems introduced into Japan by its westernization. The hum means you can't get away from this unless you flee into the wilderness.

From the Sci Fi plot line, I take it to mean that Lain is some sort of developing diety that was able to interface with the real world via the Internet, and any technology that is connected to it. After maturing, she might not be limited to to just what is wired.

[Drizzten]

iwakura covered most of what I might have said.

They are also a physical manifestation of one of the anime's themes, that being "everyone is always connected."

[Interfectum]

I personnally thought that the artwork focused entirely on the powerlines was some of the best art in the whole series. Has anyone been able to find some jpg's of that kind of stuff? I'd like it for my backround.
I've seen some other lain picutres, but I'm most interested in the power lines... or maybe the shadows

- Interfectum

[iwakura]

Yes, it's another example of the art aspect of this series.

Is SEL anime or is SEL art?

:)

[Gryshnak]

Ask not for whom the overhead power lines hum... they hum for thee :lol:

[DarkPrimus]

A slightly related question: What's up with the weird-colored shadows?

[iwakura]

Originally posted by DarkPrimus
A slightly related question: What's up with the weird-colored shadows?

There are at least two aspects to the funky shadows:

* These are for surrealistic purposes to get a sub-concsious emotional response from the viewer.

* These illustrate that the boundary between the real world and the wired world is breaking down.

[ainslye]

[deleted]...

[Interfectum]

This probably goes under my lysergic acid diethylamide theory, but isn't there a layer called "static"? If there is I'm almost certain I know what this means.

I have a feeling that there are a lot of senses that we have forgotten how to use, or were never taught in the first place. If you look at a blank space you can see static. Look at a white wall and you won't see just white if you look hard enough, you'll see an overlay of a variety of different colors or something, I can't pit it down. The same effect occurs when you look at some dark space, like a shadow on the ground. However, darkness brings out a certain fear, and certain patterns, that you don't get from light.

This has to do with LSD (And all perception altering substances) because even though you are capable of viewing these things, you might not think they are significant until you experience something that highlights them. Not necessarily using psychedelics, but at least being aware of the effects, may yield a deeper interpretation of the aspects of life surrounding. I don't believe that Lain's reality is changing, rather her perception of the world is changing (Which is all one has, when relating to reality).

The patterns in the shadows are the result of her mind looking closer that someone who looks at a shadow and sees "a shadow". The static represents a sense that has not been tapped into yet, and therefore we are incapable of describing it as anything more than "static".

Quantum Physics is the equivalent of the scientific community confirming that we do not know what is going on. Deviations in our current theories are beginning to pile up. It is not our reality that is crumbling, it is the validity of collective perception.

Of course this is just my interpretation, could someone confirm there is a layer named static?

- Interfectum (sef03@hotmail.com)

[iwakura]

Originally posted by Interfectum
Look at a white wall and you won't see just white if you look hard enough, you'll see an overlay of a variety of different colors or something...

Noise is just a limit to any sensor that observes the empirical world. That's why you might hear the expression "signal-to-noise" ratio. Our mind tries to interprete this noise and thus we may see "patterns" that are not really there.

Quantum Physics is the equivalent of the scientific community confirming that we do not know what is going on.
That might be a little bit strong. This just establishes limits as to what one can know. For example, you can know the speed or location of a small particle, but not both. Quantum physics (plus Heisenberg) just establishes limits to what we can know.

Deviations in our current theories are beginning to pile up. It is not our reality that is crumbling, it is the validity of collective perception.
Again a bit strong. Any theory of reality has error and constraints. Even with such error, theories can be very useful. Newton's laws of Physics are OK until things get too fast, too big, ... They are perfectly adequate for most uses.

What I find interesting is that the western perspective of cause and effect doesn't always seem to hold for very small things. The "break down" is that this doesn't scale for large things. Why two sets of rules for the universe? One good set should be enough.

Of course this is just my interpretation, could someone confirm there is a layer named static?
- Interfectum (sef03@hotmail.com)

The layer names are posted at http://www.bitbear.com/cyberia/episode.htm

[Interfectum]

Ah damn. There isn't static. But there is distortion! That’s good enough.


What I find interesting is that the western perspective of cause and effect doesn't always seem to hold for very small things. The "break down" is that this doesn't scale for large things. Why two sets of rules for the universe? One good set should be enough.


This is exactly what I'm talking about when I talk about Quantum Physics being proof that there are flaws present. Normal physics is not "be all end all". Once we can admit that, we can admit that there are things that we may be missing. Saying that the static I'm talking about is just Noise is kind of a cop out. What if we thought sound was just a bunch of useless vibrations instead of trying to interpret it? Here’s an easy way of thinking about it: If you find a new breed a plant, you don't throw it away just because it doesn't cure cancer.
We've taught ourselves not to see static, to see past it, but in the process we have made our self blind to something that might actually be useful if it is developed.

In regard to that, and to the idea that physics is flawed, I wonder how much stimuli we reject ever day due to the fact that it "doesn't make sense". We tend to disregard anything that does not fit our set beliefs about the world. Over time it becomes unconscious. A pair of shadows heading in the wrong direction, a flicker of light in the corner of your eye, voices coming from a room with no one in it.
Perhaps our current classical physics doesn't work as well as we assume it does. Our perceptions are compensating for its failures.

I'm using strong language, in the sense that I'm not saying "I think" or "I believe", to bring urgency to this material. I don't necessarily have a firm belief in this stuff yet. Of course, I'm probably just ending up sounding like a psycho. :P

- Interfectum

[iwakura]

I won't go that far. Random noise is just that. It even has a statistical distribution. When people take LSD and see things in the noise these are halucinations, not a special vision.

Classic physics works adequately for non-metaphysical things. What you are talking about seems to be metaphysics/religion :)

[ainslye]

[deleted]...

[Drizzten]

Says Interfectum:
Saying that the static I'm talking about is just Noise is kind of a cop out. What if we thought sound was just a bunch of useless vibrations instead of trying to interpret it? Here’s an easy way of thinking about it: If you find a new breed a plant, you don't throw it away just because it doesn't cure cancer.
We've taught ourselves not to see static, to see past it, but in the process we have made our self blind to something that might actually be useful if it is developed.
Then the static, according to your opinion, must mean something. What do you think it means?

Personally, when I think of static, I think random data which adds up to nothing beyond wasted energy. Undirected effort. The absence of will and order. Perhaps you think differently (and if so, I'd like to hear your thoughts), but to me static is essentially meaningless beyond being used as a dramatic tool to distinguish order from non-order.

[Interfectum]

I won't go that far. Random noise is just that. It even has a statistical distribution. When people take LSD and see things in the noise these are hallucinations, not a special vision.

How far will you go? :)
Its interesting that when you think about it, nothing is random. Flip a coin, and the result is the velocity of your thumb combined with wind resistance and a dozen other factors. Reach into a hat to pull out a "random" name, and you're actually making a conscious/subconscious decision that’s based on your experiences, your senses, and your state of mind.
There is no random. I'm not saying everything has a purpose, I'm just saying cause and effect are critical to living life.
The static might mean nothing. It might be a residue of sight. It might be a meaningless blur, pointless and distracting. Or maybe it is sight that is distracting us. Perhaps we've toned down a sense that was underdeveloped to begin with. How do cats always know the way to get back to their homes? My aunt once had to go on vacation, so she dropped off her cat at my grandmother's house which was in a different town. My grandmother let the cat out to run outside, and it didn't come back. She felt terrible. 2 weeks later the cat ended up scratching on my aunt's door. It had gone miles. Over highways. That is an interesting sense indeed.


When people take LSD and see things in the noise these are hallucinations, not a special vision.

I really don't think LSD is an answer. It is a clue at the most. Think about this, you could read a paragraph over and over again, but never really recognize a word until someone highlights it for you. Hallucinogenics may be a form of highlighter. Its not that they alter your perception, perhaps they simply alter your interpretation of your perception.
All perception is a "hallucination" technically (Though I prefer to not call it that). I mean, think about it, our idea of the world does not involve objects that grow and shrink. We like to think the world is a place where things stay the same size as you walk around. But our vision tells us otherwise, and we interpret it the way we want. When we see something suddenly grow in size and become more defined we believe it is getting closer. When something gets blurry and small, that means its getting farther. We are convinced we live in a three dimensional world but at the same time are denied any vision of it.

Classic physics works adequately for non-metaphysical things. What you are talking about seems to be metaphysics/religion :)

I prefer to think of myself as a grassroots scientist. :) In otherwords, I'm not going to accept all "facts" as a basis for future science. We found out in a day that the world was round. Maybe tomorrow we’ll know that the world is triangular. All science is theory, that’s the point of it. If something in our perception changes, science changes. Unfortunately, not everyone thinks like that, so many people believe we’ve gotten so far as to actually have “Facts”, whatever those are. Our only “grasp” on reality is through our perception, the difference between religion and science is that while religion relies on the faith of God, science relies on the faith of perception.
Going through life without questioning your faith is like driving without looking at the gas meter.

- Interfectum

[Cetacious]

I don't know if that's due to statics or distortion or whatever, but actually that doesn't matter, the point is that it's Lain seing the same things with new eyes, expanding. She does that all along the series and the shadows are a nice way to show that "there are more things", which is also basically the main reason why we came to quantum physics, not because it denies previous theories, but because it comes up with the fact that there is always more than we can usually see. Still that doesn't make what we usually see wrong, it's just not everything.
Think about this, you could read a paragraph over and over again, but never really recognize a word until someone highlights it for you.
Heh, that happened to me with Rurouni Kenshin, I always called it Ruroni Kenshin(no u), no matter how often I read it, and when my cousin told me it had a "U" I insisted it had not till he took out the Hiragana alfabeth and made me read the original Japaneese title. And now, suddenly, everytime I read it I read RuroUni Kenshin.

[Drizzten]

Says Interfectum:
I'm not going to accept all "facts" as a basis for future science. We found out in a day that the world was round. Maybe tomorrow we’ll know that the world is triangular. All science is theory, that’s the point of it. If something in our perception changes, science changes. Unfortunately, not everyone thinks like that, so many people believe we’ve gotten so far as to actually have “Facts”, whatever those are. Our only “grasp” on reality is through our perception, the difference between religion and science is that while religion relies on the faith of God, science relies on the faith of perception.
This is a discussion topic far larger than the anime and should be taken to Members Only if you wish to continue it. :)

[iwakura]

Back to Lain,

The noise isn't random -- it's 50 Hz sine wave.

This is better than random because one could use it as a carrier wave to mix other signals onto it...

[Interfectum]

This is a discussion topic far larger than the anime and should be taken to Members Only if you wish to continue it. :)


Sigh.. Your right of course. My tie between Lain and this topic is getting weak.
I'm hesitant to start this conversation somewhere else because the majority of peeps don't really have any interest in reality vs. perception conversations and Lain draws more interesting theories.

I'll shut up now. :)

So has any one found any pictures of the lain powerlines yet?

- Interfectum

[sutarikun]

Originally posted by iwakura
There are at least two aspects to the funky shadows:

* These are for surrealistic purposes to get a sub-concsious emotional response from the viewer.

* These illustrate that the boundary between the real world and the wired world is breaking down.

From what I picked up from watching most of the people in se:l, only lain and the buildings/power lines have the "strange" shadows. About half the time when lain's shadow appears, the coloration of the shadow changes and moves whereas the immobile objects' shadows remain constant.

[Cetacious]

You sure? That would connect Lain and the lines, which makes a lot of sense since the girl herself is digital. Bwwwt!

[iwakura]

Heh heh...

I got a chuckle out of that one. AC powerlines distribute eletricity via an ANALOG sine way. When there are three big circuits, sometimes there are three sine waves (0, 120, 240 degrees out of phase) for three phase. It's at a frequency of 60 Hz (50 Hz in Asia) that produces that annoying hum on unshielded cables.