kuroda

[Kajak]

you've probably gone through this a thousand times but i can't seem to figure out who/what takes kurodas form after he was killed by the composite humans, after he gave the drug to nagi

[GigaSheep]

This is one of the more complicated aspects of the show, that must be pieced together from little flashes.

Kuroda is killed at the hospital after he gives the drug to Nagi. His body is then captured by the Towa Organization and used as a vessel for Echoes (as flashed in episode 11).

He contains Echoes until the night of the Light, when he is slashed in the face by Nagi while Boogiepop is strangling the [Minako] Manticore (again, this is flashed in episode 11).

After Kuroda is wounded and Echoes escapes him as light, he loses his memory (since the light is all the city's memories).

Kuroda then stumbles around the city barefoot and wounded, and is discovered lying on the street by Manaka in episode 11, who RETURNS TO HIM HIS OLD MEMORIES.

Dazed and confuzed, Kuroda doesn't know what to make of his old memories, and mistakenly assumes the fake identity 'Kishida' which he used to use for cover. He assumes that he really is Kishida until episode 12, when he recalls his true identity while wrestling the Manticore. The Manticore had resided within Kuroda ever since the end of episode 8, when Boogiepop Phantom 'destroys' it temporarily.

Recap:

Kuroda -> Echoes -> Kishida -> Manticore -> Kuroda

Full circle...

[Kajak]

oh did i miss a plot point or what. so kuroda is actually echoes without knowing it himself. he thinks that he is kishida until the last ep. but when "kuroda" is killed in the end he has manticore inside him, what happened to echoes? when did echoes leave his body?

or did echoes leave his body at the night of the light and kuroda becomes totally blanked until he gets that memory from manaka, and later he also becomes the residence to manticore?

[GigaSheep]

You are precisely right the second time. Echoes leaves Kuroda on the night of the light, and that is why he blanks out. Echoes' power is scattered between all the henceforth 'special' children, most notably Manaka, who is resurrected by the light.

Leading up to that point, Kuroda was forced to contain/become Echoes only after being killed 5 years ago at the hospital. We can assume his body was captured and this was his punishment for betraying the Organization. Before this, he was just plain Kuroda (aka Scarecrow, but that's from the novels, not the series) :o

[StAtIc NiNjA]

Originally posted by GigaSheep
This is one of the more complicated aspects of the show, that must be pieced together from little flashes.

Kuroda is killed at the hospital after he gives the drug to Nagi. His body is then captured by the Towa Organization and used as a vessel for Echoes (as flashed in episode 11).

He contains Echoes until the night of the Light, when he is slashed in the face by Nagi while Boogiepop is strangling the [Minako] Manticore (again, this is flashed in episode 11).

After Kuroda is wounded and Echoes escapes him as light, he loses his memory (since the light is all the city's memories).

Kuroda then stumbles around the city barefoot and wounded, and is discovered lying on the street by Manaka in episode 11, who RETURNS TO HIM HIS OLD MEMORIES.

Dazed and confuzed, Kuroda doesn't know what to make of his old memories, and mistakenly assumes the fake identity 'Kishida' which he used to use for cover. He assumes that he really is Kishida until episode 12, when he recalls his true identity while wrestling the Manticore. The Manticore had resided within Kuroda ever since the end of episode 8, when Boogiepop Phantom 'destroys' it temporarily.

Recap:

Kuroda -> Echoes -> Kishida -> Manticore -> Kuroda

Full circle...

And thats why I love this series so much.

PS Was it you GigaSheep that had a Boogiepop website?

Edit: added PS

[Kajak]

ok, thanks that cleared my mind a little :)

[GigaSheep]

No problem. Yeah, it's me who has the website. Sit tight... it'll be up soon; i've just been very busy at work.

[Manticore]

[QUOTE=GigaSheep]
He contains Echoes until the night of the Light, when he is slashed in the face by Nagi while Boogiepop is strangling the [Minako] Manticore (again, this is flashed in episode 11).

After Kuroda is wounded and Echoes escapes him as light, he loses his memory (since the light is all the city's memories).
QUOTE]

Ok, I agree with everything you said except for one instance. Is there any evidence that shows Nagi as being the one to slash Echoes? From the clips of the pillar of light in episode 11 it appears that Saotome was the one that had the knife. I had assumed that if the Manticore hadn't been the one to wound Echoes then it most likely would have been Saotome. It just doesn't make much sense to me that Nagi would attack Echoes, especially since he was housed with in Kuroda's body.

Now I know this is probably trivial but after spending a couple hours with a friend trying to piece together frame by frame the events of that evening, I would just like to clarify it.

[GigaSheep]

You know, I recently watched some of the series again and I realized you are absolutely right. That flash is actually Saotome with the knife, attacking Nagi on the scene. We can assume he's going after Echoes next, then the light happens, etc. In the live action movie we see the aftermath of Saotome attacking Nagi there and how she survives in the end.

[elpu34234]

Another kuroda's question...or not.


In ep 11 when manaka releases all those butterflies, kuroda comes to pick her up, or is it echoes?

how can this be possible?

[GigaSheep]

This actually IS Echoes, or at least Manaka's perception of him. This is because the only physical incarnation of Echoes that Manaka ever saw was Kuroda's bleeding body as discovered on the street in episode 11. This then became the way she sees him, and eventually becomes liberated by him when they hold hands. We can assume that Echoes has power over Manaka's fate because Manaka was revived from her murder by Echoes' light in the first place.

[EvaOtaku]

Whoa -

Kuroda worked for the Touwa Organization. He is *not* Echos.

Echos descended to earth and was captured by Touwa, they did experiments on him and began producing medicines and created the Composite Humans, and also began looking into spontaneous eveolution of humans.

Kuroda met Nagi - and realized she was a spontaneous evolution (but incomplete, and was dying). He stole the medicine from Touwa and gave it to Nagi. Touwa labled him a traitor and sent a composite human after him (More Murder). Kuroda evades More Murder but is fatally wounded - he dies outside the hospital, in front of Touka. This is when the Boogieop persona arrives, and Touka takes Kuroda's jacket/cape and hat.

Echos and Kuroda are two different people. Kuroda was long dead by the time the Pillar of Light incident occured. Kuroda's involvement with Nagi (the medicine) is what lead to the serial killer "5 years ago" (Dr. Kisugi = Fear Ghoul).

[elpu34234]

More Murder is not dr kisugi? we see more murder in the anime?

[EvaOtaku]

More Murder is not dr kisugi? we see more murder in the anime?

No More Murder is not Dr. Kisugi - Dr. Kisugi is Fear Ghoul, More Morder is a composite human (like Kuroda = Scarecrow). More Murder is the one who killed Nagi's father.

I don't recall seeing More Murder in the anime, but I'd have to re-check. More Murder was killed when Nagi and Boogiepop killed Dr. Kirima.

This is all via the Japanese novels, as most of the background story in Boogiepop Phantom is very, very, disjointed ;)

[Ikariwannabe]

I believe Kuroda was at some point Echos' physical form. As you may have noticed, none of the composite humans have their own appearances; they often have to kill someone and take their body or at least steal their faces.

Kuroda was dead before Echos was ever captured/created and I suppose Towa used his body to hold Echos as punishment for his treason.

[Cookiepop]

you've probably gone through this a thousand times but i can't seem to figure out who/what takes kurodas form after he was killed by the composite humans, after he gave the drug to nagi

Nothing takes his form. He died. Although his phantom does come back in episode 8, with a little help from Kisaragi Manaka.

This is one of the more complicated aspects of the show, that must be pieced together from little flashes.

Kuroda is killed at the hospital after he gives the drug to Nagi. His body is then captured by the Towa Organization and used as a vessel for Echoes (as flashed in episode 11).

He contains Echoes until the night of the Light, when he is slashed in the face by Nagi while Boogiepop is strangling the [Minako] Manticore (again, this is flashed in episode 11).

After Kuroda is wounded and Echoes escapes him as light, he loses his memory (since the light is all the city's memories).

Kuroda then stumbles around the city barefoot and wounded, and is discovered lying on the street by Manaka in episode 11, who RETURNS TO HIM HIS OLD MEMORIES.

Dazed and confuzed, Kuroda doesn't know what to make of his old memories, and mistakenly assumes the fake identity 'Kishida' which he used to use for cover. He assumes that he really is Kishida until episode 12, when he recalls his true identity while wrestling the Manticore. The Manticore had resided within Kuroda ever since the end of episode 8, when Boogiepop Phantom 'destroys' it temporarily.

Recap:

Kuroda -> Echoes -> Kishida -> Manticore -> Kuroda

Full circle...

We never find out what the Towa organization did with his body, but they didn't use it as a container for Echoes. I think I read somewhere that they burned it.

Echoes never needed a container. How he appears in the series is the form he has maintained since he arrived on Earth. The Towa organization captured him long before Kuroda Shinpei even became a composite human.

On the night of the pillar of light, nobody slashes Echoes face. He gets beaten up pretty badly by the Manticore, and turns into light in a final attemtp to destroy it, while Boogiepop holds it in place. After the pillar of light, Echoes is gone. The light that pierced the sky was his true form, and he returned to his origin (space). Echoes is never seen again on Earth save once more by Kisaragi Manaka who, upon her death, is confronted by Echoes (phantom?) who offers to let her join him in space/afterlife/heaven. What you thought was Echoes stumbling throughout the city was flashbacks. They all occured before the pillar of light, as Echoes searched for the Manticore.

Kisaragi Manaka later on (after the light) created Kuroda phantom, but he could not remember his real name or what he had done in his past life. Kuroda had used the cover Kishida during his life when he investigated Kirima's father's estate for embezzlement of Nagi's inheritance. When Manaka brought Kuroda back as a phantom, investigating Kirima Seichii was all he could remember, so that's what he went off to do (episode 8). In episode 12 he learns the full truth.

Oh wait, EvaOtaku got there first. Ah well.

I don't recall seeing More Murder in the anime, but I'd have to re-check. More Murder was killed when Nagi and Boogiepop killed Dr. Kirima.

We see More Murder only twice. The first time is in episode 5 when Suema Kazuko is given the vision by Manaka of a body being flung from the hospital balcony with a big hole in it, with Dr Kisugi standing up on the balcony with an evil grin (I'm sorry, but isn't she just the most bad ass hardcore evil creature to walk the Earth ever - she makes people s*** themselves for fun :eek: :cool: ). The second time we see him is when we see Kuroda running away from the hospital, and then someone jumps down in front of him blocking his path. That's him.

And I assume you mean Dr Kisugi and not Dr Kirima.