Princess Mononoke, you are the weakest link. GOODBYE!!

[Project Akira]

Hayao Miyazaki is truly one of the greatest animation directors of all time. However like any director, he can stumble. In this case it's the film Princess Mononoke. In the past month I've seen two films by him My Neighbor Totoro and Castle in the Sky. I've also seen an abundance of clips from his films thanks to movie trailers and anime music videos. Now what I've seen from clips of his other films, he's generally a very light and whimsical director. He puts a sense of wonder into his films that is unrivaled by anyone. There is a great sense of imagination in each of them.

Mononoke when I watch it doesn't seem like a Miyazaki film. For one thing it's very dark and violent compared to stuff like Kiki's Delivery Service and Castle in the Sky. Also while there is a sense of wonder, it's almost non-existent in the film. You have a few scenes where you are wowed but the majority of the film isn't like that. There's also the heavy handed environmental message that sort of screams out to the viewers to understand rather be subtle about it like Totoro. The darker elements of the film don't seem to work as well as the lighter elements (something that he would rectify in Spirited Away) and the frequency that they pop up with is very alarming. It's almost as if Miyazaki was trying to cover in his own inability to convey the mood of the story right. This goes without mentioning that the characters with the exception of Ashitaka are some of the most brutal in the Miyazaki character cannon. In fact it's almost the anti-Miyazaki film.

Don't get me wrong, it's a solid film. However as Miyazaki films go it's sort of near the bottom of the greatness scale.

[orochi X]

Out of the Miyazaki films ive seen Mononoke is the only one I recall that is violent, with the limbs flying off and the endless amount of blood.

And Id put it as my least favorite Miyazaki movie, not that it isnt good or anything (its a great action flik) but I prefer his other movies which were well more light hearted and cheerful. Those sorts of films IMO are more fun to sit through and watch.

[Tensiga]

DONT DIS MONONOKE

[Project Akira]

We're not dissing it at all. All that we are doing is mentioning that we think the film is the weakest in Miyazaki filmography. Notice that we're not saying it's a bad film. In fact I think that Mononoke is a good film but honestly Miyazaki as a director has done much better.

[So Full of Mercy]

Wow, that's bold of you... not that you'd get on here and try to marginalize a great movie by some loosely formed "par" you've set up like this was golf or something, but that it's 2003 and you're quoting the weakest link. Good God, why didn't you just ask if this was our final answer or something?

[Sigurd Fatima]

Let me just summarize things a little for those who don't want to read all the argument.Originally posted by Project Akira
it's a solid film.Plain and simple. Basically Project Akira is telling us it isn't one of the director's better movies even though many of the viewers may disagree.
Originally posted by So Full of Mercy
but that it's 2003 and you're quoting the weakest link. Good God, why didn't you just ask if this was our final answer or something? Right on. I hope that helps the rest of you out there. Why Jin-roh, Princess Mononoke, and Blood need there own forum I'll never understand but I might as well add my analogy.

I agree that Mr. Miyazaki should stay with what fits him best, but people often want to try new undertakings and see where it leads them for good or for worse. I haven't seen his other movies (or so I think I haven't because I'm sure I would remember if I did), but just by seeing Princess Mononoke I can relate to this discussion. The classic "should have stayed with what you are good at" phrase can be applied here. Thanks for sharing you thoughts PA, but there isn't much I can do but agree with you more than anything else. I rated this a 7.5 by the way. With or without this second paragraph, I wasn't intending to include it but proved that I could if I put my mind to it before moving on to greener forums.

Peace. V

[Project Akira]

Originally posted by So Full of Mercy
Wow, that's bold of you... not that you'd get on here and try to marginalize a great movie by some loosely formed "par" you've set up like this was golf or something, but that it's 2003 and you're quoting the weakest link. Good God, why didn't you just ask if this was our final answer or something? It's called analogy and use of common vernacular to draw attention. I feel that of all the movies he done, Mononoke is the weakest one hence the use of the term the weakest link. Since people remember that quote, I used it to draw attention to start an intelligent discussion on both the merits and drawbacks of the film Princess Mononoke. Obviously this was lost on you and needed clarification.

Originally posted by Sigurd Fatima

I agree that Mr. Miyazaki should stay with what fits him best, but people often want to try new undertakings and see where it leads them for good or for worse. Actually I think that while this isn't the best film in the Miyazaki cannon, it was a necessary one to make. Spirited Away was essentially a dark film. Not nearly as dark as Mononoke, Spirited Away does have a few dark elements to it's storytelling. However in the years between making the two films, Miyazaki learned what worked in that film and what didn't. It's much like Steven Spielberg and his recent film Minority Report. It's a terrific film (though flawed at the end) but would not have happened if Spielberg had not made AI. Mononoke was a necessary stepping stone in the development of Miyazaki as a filmmaker :)

[Drizzten]

Says Project Akira:
In fact it's almost the anti-Miyazaki film.
Wouldn't want our anime directors to get formulaic, would we? ;)

I'm not familiar at all with the bulk of Miyazaki's work, so I can't compare them. But I get what you're trying to say.

[Tensiga]

well i guess i get it

[So Full of Mercy]

Originally posted by Project Akira
It's called analogy and use of common vernacular to draw attention. I feel that of all the movies he done, Mononoke is the weakest one hence the use of the term the weakest link. Since people remember that quote, I used it to draw attention to start an intelligent discussion on both the merits and drawbacks of the film Princess Mononoke. Obviously this was lost on you and needed clarification.

Actually, it's not common vernacular it's older than dirt and all I really see is that you're trying to be an anime elitist and attack a popular anime movie. You're a dork, you're not cool.

[Project Akira]

Originally posted by So Full of Mercy
Actually, it's not common vernacular it's older than dirt and all I really see is that you're trying to be an anime elitist and attack a popular anime movie. You're a dork, you're not cool. I'm not attacking anything here. All I'm doing is stating an opinion on my thoughts of Miyazaki's films. In fact if you go back through the thread you'll see that I state several times that I think Mononoke is a good, solid film. Still I don't think that it's Miyazaki's best film. Watch Miyazaki's other films and you should see this too.

[Drizzten]

Says So Full of Mercy:
Actually, it's not common vernacular it's older than dirt
Yes...it is old...but it is also common. And it's in the vernacular.

and all I really see is that you're trying to be an anime elitist and attack a popular anime movie.
In addition to his calm and rational criticisms, he also said, variously: it doesn't seem like a Miyazaki film...it's a solid film...a terrific film...a necessary stepping stone in the development of Miyazaki

Re-read what Sigurd Fatima said. Project Akira thinks this is Miyazaki's worst film, but that still makes it a good one. Chill out.

You're a dork, you're not cool.
How childish and dorky is this? Cut this crap out.

[Tensiga]

whatever this is boring

[Project Akira]

That's because no one is either willing to discuss this topic, can discuss this topic in depth, or can but feel like insulting people because they disagree with the opinions stated in this thread.

[Tensiga]

u r right GOOD BYE

[AchtungAffen]

Well, IMO I prefer 1 Mononoke Hime against 20 Spirited Away's. Still I prefer Porco Rosso on top of them both.

[Project Akira]

Elaborate on why you think that Mononoke is better than Spirited Away. I'm curious as to why you think this.

[Drizzten]

Perhaps because PM's story elements appeal to him more than SA's? They are significantly different on some levels, depth and subtlety being the two most obvious I believe.

[AchtungAffen]

Well, the story in spirited away never closed well, it's like many things are left in the air... and many of the elements there reminded me too much like tonari no totoro. But Mononoke, as you said, has some new elements and different action.

[Gryshnak]

I'd have to go along with the original post. I've seen Nausicaa, Laputa, Kiki, Totoro and Mononoke (and hope to see Spirited Away very shortly) - Mononoke is the one that impressed me least of all. Visually it was fine but I wasn't that impressed with the writing. More than anything else, it lacked the magic and charm that I have come to expect from a Miyazaki movie.

If I hadn't heard of it before, and it didn't have his name in the credits, I could watch Mononoke for the first time and never know it was a Miyazaki movie at all.

[Drizzten]

Besides the visual work done on the characters' faces. ;)

Miyazaki/Studio Ghilibi trademarks and very distinctive.

[Project Akira]

Yeah I think that's about the most it really has in common with most Ghibli films. However in spirit it is similar to the far superior Grave of the Fireflies but whereas Grave of the Fireflies got all of it's dark elements right, Mononoke flounders quite a bit.

[ClickOnMySoul]

Wouldn't want our anime directors to get formulaic, would we? ;)

I'm not familiar at all with the bulk of Miyazaki's work, so I can't compare them. But I get what you're trying to say.


I get it too...but...I thought the story was the semi-weakest part of the movie. The animation was pretty good and the art work was well-done so...I have no beef with that but the storyline was only partially clear.

[Drizzten]

That's curious because I found the storyline to be staightforward once the spiritual elements were explained. A human development based around a large weapons factory wants to use more forest resources to build more weapons despite the violent resistence of the animals in the forest. Human arrogance compels some to go after the forest spirit literally holding life together, resulting in a near-catastrophe.

[ClickOnMySoul]

indeed. i guess i just expected something deeper from it, is all. *sigh* oh well.

[fatesangel]

irregardless of the quality it is still a great movie and should have no need to hold such a petty thing as a rank in the minds of the few

[eddiefb3]

I like princess Mononoke just fine. Totoro is my favorite, but this is my second, followed by porco rosso, the Spirited away, then nausicca. Princess mononoke made a lot of sense and seemed to show some real world problems.

[John Faulkner]

Mononoke when I watch it doesn't seem like a Miyazaki film. For one thing it's very dark and violent compared to stuff like Kiki's Delivery Service and Castle in the Sky. Also while there is a sense of wonder, it's almost non-existent in the film. You have a few scenes where you are wowed but the majority of the film isn't like that.
I agree it is different - I watched this only recently and was very surprised when arms started falling off. But being different in itself is not a bad thing - on the contrary it made me sit up and take notice. I have watched Spirited Away, Porco Rosso, Kiki, Castle in the Sky and Totoro and for all of them, I felt that although they were excellent in portraying a fantastical setting, they lacked that hard, gritty cutting edge. So although you found darkness to be a fault, I actually liked it. For me, there was still a sense of wonder - how often do you see a large forest stag with a strange humanoid face, or large talking wolves and boars? I agree this is a different style, but I think the wonder is still there. Also, the ending was quite cheerful.

There's also the heavy handed environmental message that sort of screams out to the viewers to understand rather be subtle about it like Totoro.
Heavy handed or realistic? Mass deforestation is precisely what is happening/ has happened in e.g. parts of South America and Madagascar. The effects on animals have been documented in the scientific literature. Miyazaki has, in my opinion, tried to show how the animals would feel and do if they were more similar to humans (e.g. can talk and form battle plans).

The darker elements of the film don't seem to work as well as the lighter elements (something that he would rectify in Spirited Away) and the frequency that they pop up with is very alarming. It's almost as if Miyazaki was trying to cover in his own inability to convey the mood of the story right. This goes without mentioning that the characters with the exception of Ashitaka are some of the most brutal in the Miyazaki character cannon. In fact it's almost the anti-Miyazaki film.
Is that a bad thing in itself? I see no reason why Miyazaki should not attempt a more "brutal" approach. Why do you think the darker elements did not work? I think they were necessary for the subject matter portrayed. The film was not just about a simple humans VS nature split, but rather about how one's life can still be justified amidst destruction - for example here is part of Miyazaki's project proposal for the film:

"There cannot be a happy ending to the fight between the raging gods and humans. However, even in the middle of hatred and killings, there are things worth living for. A wonderful meeting, or a beautiful thing can exist.

We depict hatred, but it is to depict that there are more important things.

We depict a curse, to depict the joy of liberation.

What we should depict is, how the boy understands the girl, and the process in which the girl opens her heart to the boy.

At the end, the girl will say to the boy,
"I love you, Ashitaka. But I cannot forgive humans."

Smiling, the boy should say,
"That is fine. Live with me."

I want to make such a movie."

I think it is fantastic how the film potrays the fact that even if you are in a seemingly hopeless situation (Ashitaka), something can happen which can make life wonderful. The relationship between Ashitaka and San is thoughtfully portrayed - we have two independent beings (unlike in Spirited Away) with strong ideals, and the way Ashitaka manages to restore San's faith in humanity is well done. Little touches such as San's reaction to Ashitaka's tears and her shock at stabbing Ashitaka with the dagger which meant so much for him (both of which I failed to notice when I first watched it, due to ignorance induced by doing work at the same time) elevate the relationship above puerile teen-romance. The harsh violence used also served its purpose in providing a real contrast against the love which developed between the two protagonists.

Don't get me wrong, it's a solid film. However as Miyazaki films go it's sort of near the bottom of the greatness scale.
My favourite anime movie had been Castle in the Sky for a long time, not for its character development, but for its wonderful setting. Princess Mononoke is now my favourite film because not only does it have a good setting, but in terms of character development, it is far superior. The animation is also the best I have seen in an animated film.