The Souls of Eva-00 and Eva-02

[Black_Knight]

http://animeboards.com/t36202/s.html

http://animeboards.com/t38822/s.html


If you've been here long enough, you know where I'm going with this. Why am I doing it? Because this place is dieing, I had a revelation on the crapper and I'm an -------...

Just to recap. The their is a debate over who's soul is in Eva-00.

The first Rei or Naoko...

I think it's Naoko, others think it's cloned soul of the first rei. I'm looking at it logiclly that you cannot clone a soul. Of course this has been brought up many times before, but we need a fresh start. I'll be damned if I'm gonna start digging up corpes

[Wing Zaku 0]

maybe they didnt bury rei 1 they just stuck her in eva cos she was barley alive, and then was absorbed?

she might not have been dead straight away maybe just about to die from suforcation... it is possible.

this isnt crazy talk is it? right? ...RIGHT?

[AchtungAffen]

Well, BK, think of the operativity of the Naoko theory. How could anyone, specifically Shinji and Rei synch with Naokos soul? If you can answer that question, the theory would be right. If not...

BTW: From what you draw that conclusion... that Naoko resides in Eva 00?

[Mav]

Well, remember that Shinji never succesfully synchs with Unit-00, and Rei is part Angel, and so, like Kaoru, may be able to synch with any Eva as long as it doesn't have a dominant soul.

Indeed, you could see the two Unit-00 "incidents" as the Eva's soul "waking up", and trying to reject an incompatible pilot

My thoughts on the subject of Evas, pilots, and souls:

Ok, we know (or at least can make an educated guess) that
1. An Eva needs a soul in order to function.
2. That soul can be dormant or awake, and possibly various points inbetween. This can affect the Eva's reaction to pilots (for example, Unit-01 rejecting Rei and the dummy plug).

So, my (half-assed, made up on the spot) theory is that if an Eva's soul is awake/dominant, only the child of the soul "donor" will be able to synch with it, but conversely, if the soul isn't awake, then it is possible, if a little unlikely, for another child to pilot it. Rei and Kaoru have a better chance to do this, because they are part Angel.

So, Unit-00 needed a soul, Gendo needed the inconvenient Naoko out of the way. Kill two birds with one stone...

[Wing Zaku 0]

shinji says this smells like rei so maybe that reis soul in eva 00 and

we know yui is in eva 01 hense the it smells like ikari.. not shinji she says ikari maybe shinjis mother smell hense it wouls explain my theroy of rei 01 being in the 00 eva

[AchtungAffen]

Shinji actually synched with Eva 00, but only on a superficial level. When it gets deeper is when contamination occurs. Rewatch the episode.

But, Kaworu specifically says he can 'dominate' Eva 02 because:
1-Has the same body as him (Adam)
2-Its soul is shutting itself up.

He gives 2 requirements to do that. You can't have one without the other.

As for Rei.... well, if she had the same powers as Kaworu, or at least aware of them, then why did she have the worst synch ratio?

[Black_Knight]

So then by all logic, if Rei's soul is the recipiant of Eva-00 why does it take so long to sync with herself? She should have a super sync!

Also why in goods name would they put the corpse of a young girl into an entry plug for the soul to me moved there?

[AchtungAffen]

Because there are substantial differences between the three Reis, due to enviromental factors.

The corpse of a girl for the soul to be moved there?? What do you mean by that??

[Kyrakasa]

WHY IS THIS THREAD in the chit chat forum? :lol:

Oh well...

It's not Naoko... It makes no sense of saying it's Naoko...

Winged Zaku accurately tells you where it lets you know for sure it is Rei's soul...

Shinji: "This smells like Rei"

Asuka: "What?!? Perverted Idiot!!!"

It's rei's soul... WHY would Naoko Want to kill her daughter... Ritsuko??? Ritsuko says that Eva-00 wanted to kill her for a reason... Anno didn't make Ritsuko say that for no reason. What Anno does has a meaning... And this was to tell us that Rei's soul is in Eva-00

A thing to notice is that Rei's soul is also partly Yui...

Anno ventured into the thoughts of the separation of mind and body... When Yui was cloned... Her body was made anew...

Yet her mind was also in Rei... She kept experiencing motherly affections for Shinji...

So If Rei's soul as you call it is in Eva-00 then Yui's soul is in there as well... You can not separate completely Yui's and Rei's souls... Same as separating the Rei's consciousness...

Think of Jung's Collective unconsciousness... All Rei's are Yui in nature... They all have Yui's original intent to save her son...

So Shinji can surely synch with Eva-00 since Yui allows it... Until Yui saw Ritsuko... And got mad... She got mad because Ritsuko was SCREWING her husband.

That's why Eva-00 atttacked Ritsuko...

That's why Rei-01 was enjoying herself while repeating "That old hag is no use anymore......"

It's the unconscious intent that Rei-01 had from Yui that made her smile while calling Naoko a hag... I mean that would be the least that she would call a woman who's Screwing her husband.

I hope you understand why It is Rei/Yui's soul inside Eva-01.

1. Yui and Rei are connected. They will always be there to protect shinji. Rei will never forget what Yui has in her mind. Other Rei's will always remember what Prior Rei's have experienced.

2. Yui and Rei hate Ritsuko and Naoko.

3. Misato says that Asuka can't synch with an Eva with Yui/REi's soul in it... Misato didn't say that just for fun... There was a reason.

4. Naoko died and went splat... She never went through a test experiment where her ego could be absorbed... through the ego barrier...

5. This soul you talk about can also include the consciousness which is the id, Ego, SuperEgo since the barrier is called a Ego Barrier... So when the soul is transfered Anno infers that the consciousness goes with it... and is imbeded into the new vessel...

The vessels are of course Rei, Evangelion, and Kawarou...


I hope all that clears things up...
I'm not as elegant as MDwigs in writing essays but I try my best...


~_~

:liplick:

[GuGuEaTeR]

*spoiler warning* (chitchat room has to have that thing in in every post. not like discussion forum...)


AA have put it nicely. even though they are both Reis, one as pilot and one as core soul, they have different thoughts and ideas as such, like different people. they are ultimately, different people. even though they have the same name, look the same, and even has same DNA.

that above was proven in EoE when all three Reis stand around each other. it meant they were different entities.

i'm going with Rei in core soul. probably Rei 1, i assume.

[ReichuRachiel]

Iyaaa!! None of it makes any sense! Rei's soul is Lilith's soul, and there's, obviously, only one of these. When one Rei died, for whatever reason, it went to the next clone body instead of returning to Lil. (I always wanted to know the mechanics behind that, but nevermind.) Unless I've misinterpreted the mechanics of souls in the NGE universe, they can only be in one body at a time (but more than one soul can be in the same body, in special circumstances). Lilith's soul CANNOT be in both Zerogouki and Rei. It's nonsensical. Zerogouki's soul must be unique!!!

I'll admit that I have not given the mechanics behind the pilot/Eva synchronization too much thought, mostly because the whole idea of mutilating somebody's spine -- cutting their brain away from the rest of their body -- and forging an artificial cavity in the upper thorax within which psychologically-unstable 14-year-olds would be inserted to serve as the "brain" always disgusted me. [I'm talking about entry plugs, in case you couldn't figure it out.] On the other hand, I've pondered the Eva/soul matter in a way that ideologically satisfies =me=, though other people tend not to approve of my ideas. But, anyway, the Naoko=Zerogouki connection breaks SOME conventions, though I can't see any other way, really.

Zerogouki's temper tantrums seem to exhibit the same sort of bitchiness Naoko was known for. And, what do you mean, Naoko wouldn't have any reasons to want to kill Ritsuko? Maybe they seemed to get along, superficially, before Naoko's death, though there was evidently some conflict between them. And one must also consider the effect that being an Eva for five years would have on a woman. >>} Being an Eva can't be a whole lot of fun, since you're completely robbed of your free will, treated like a tool instead of a human being, and all that. And Ritsuko is in charge of the Eva technology. Simply by virtue of that, Naoko would have plenty to hold against her daughter. Not to mention the fact that Ritsuko started having a fling with you-know-who (can't say his name... it might make Naoko upset ;;p). There's the problem of how Naoko would have found out about it, but they could have been making out on EVA-00's umbilical bridge at some point, for all we know. ;;p

Okay, and the "smells like Ayanami" bit... Those kids spend an AWFUL lot of time in their entry plugs, which are inside the Evas' artificial thoracic cavities. And they're completely enveloped by this icky yellow stuff that smells vaguely like blood. I figure the LCL is taken from the Evas' cores (since the cores -are- full of LCL and the end of the entry plug that's deepest in the Eva evidently is in contact with the core, so it only makes sense) and, heck, Zero and Sho are different Evas so odds are their LCL might smell a bit different. With stuff that rank, I doubt any amount of showering could COMPLETELY eliminate the odor, so what Shinji believes "smells like Ayanami" is actually the olfactory signature of Zerogouki's goop. Ergo, when HE'S jammed into Zerogouki's spine, he takes a whiff and thinks, "Oh, gee, it smells kinda like Rei" without making any further connections as to -why-.

--Reichu

[Mav]

We don't know that Unit-0 was trying to kill Ritsuko, just that Ritsuko thinks that Unit-0 was trying to kill her, which could well be due to guilt over her affair with her mother's lover.

As for the "Rei smell", why on earth would a soul have a smell? Sure, being synced can trigger memories, images etc, which could include smells, I suppose, but Shinji doesn't seem to be experiencing that sort of thing when this happens.

[AchtungAffen]

Originally posted by ReichuRachiel
Iyaaa!! None of it makes any sense! Rei's soul is Lilith's soul, and there's, obviously, only one of these. When one Rei died, for whatever reason, it went to the next clone body instead of returning to Lil. (I always wanted to know the mechanics behind that, but nevermind.) Unless I've misinterpreted the mechanics of souls in the NGE universe, they can only be in one body at a time (but more than one soul can be in the same body, in special circumstances). Lilith's soul CANNOT be in both Zerogouki and Rei. It's nonsensical. Zerogouki's soul must be unique!!!

But, Kyouko's soul was in Kyouko and in Eva 02 at the same time right? That may be because souls aren't traspassed from a doner to a reciever, but rather 'copied' onto the core.


Okay, and the "smells like Ayanami" bit... Those kids spend an AWFUL lot of time in their entry plugs, which are inside the Evas' artificial thoracic cavities. And they're completely enveloped by this icky yellow stuff that smells vaguely like blood. I figure the LCL is taken from the Evas' cores (since the cores -are- full of LCL and the end of the entry plug that's deepest in the Eva evidently is in contact with the core, so it only makes sense) and, heck, Zero and Sho are different Evas so odds are their LCL might smell a bit different. With stuff that rank, I doubt any amount of showering could COMPLETELY eliminate the odor, so what Shinji believes "smells like Ayanami" is actually the olfactory signature of Zerogouki's goop. Ergo, when HE'S jammed into Zerogouki's spine, he takes a whiff and thinks, "Oh, gee, it smells kinda like Rei" without making any further connections as to -why-.

But remember, Shinji was invaded by something, remember episode 14
Shinji: Ah, what's this?
Something's directly entering my mind. What is it?
Ayanami? Ayanami Rei? It's Rei, this impression is hers.
Ayanami? Isn't it?

He's being invaded by something wich tries to enter Shinji's mind. Shinji recognizes it as Ayanami. But also, that last 'isnt it' isn't quite a good translation... he actually says "chigau no ka" wich is something like "different?", so he senses something that is Ayanami, but not exactly Ayanami entering his mind, something that came right from the Eva:

Maya: No, it's not from the plug. The invasion's from Eva.

[Black_Knight]

Originally posted by AchtungAffen


But, Kyouko's soul was in Kyouko and in Eva 02 at the same time right? That may be because souls aren't traspassed from a doner to a reciever, but rather 'copied' onto the core.[/B]

Thee was never any proof that her soul was both in herself and Eva 02. Useing Yui as a precedent, is not the only way to look at things.

She went insane, that is for certain, but it does NOT mean that her soul got copied... Remeber, when she died, Asuka was named the pilot of Eva-02.

As for Eva-00, Naoko could have been showing Shinji all the memories she had of Rei when she was little as a way to drive a wedge between them. You have to remeber that Naoko was a little fucked up in the head already too...

[AchtungAffen]

WEll, this looks like evidence to me:
Male voice A : Fiction became reality. What a fate!
The experimenter herself was the guinea pig.

Male voice B : So, you think that the contact experiment
was the immediate cause?

Male voice A : The mental breakdown...
Was that a result of the contact ?


The experiment, the contact experiment (we all know what that means) was the result of the mental breakdown?

They throw a stone there hard not to notice... the same way the RCB says "and her soul appears to be that of Lillit" or with Yui "her soul appears to have been made to dwell in Eva 01".

Asuka was designated pilot before Kyouko died, because Asuka runs to tell her she was designated, and then finds her dead, obviously, because she presumed Kyouko was still alive.

As for Eva-00, Naoko could have been showing Shinji all the memories she had of Rei when she was little as a way to drive a wedge between them. You have to remeber that Naoko was a little fucked up in the head already too...

Only that the images Shinji sees are from Rei 002, not Rei 001, not the memories Naoko had when Rei was little, not one of them was shown.

[GuGuEaTeR]

ok, i'll talk about who resides in EVA00. in these cases of problems, it's the best to use the elimination method.

possible souls are Rei 1 and Naoko.

now, first let's explain if Rei 1 in EVA00 would make sense. it does. there are no reasons for denyal. firstly, EVA00 going berserk doesn't always mean that EVA00 was attacking the staff directly. it was berserk. if it really was attacking because it was trying to kill someone, it should have done it much better than just punching. i think EVA00 was just 'berserk' and just attacking anything it can see. which was the staff. come on, only thing different about it was the window. everything else was just concrete or something.

Ritsuko 'thinks' EVA00 attacks her, because of her guilts and so on.

now if you put in Naoko in the EVA00, it wouldn't explain why Shinji could smell Rei. Shinji was actually comforted in EVA01, which is explained because he would be in his mother's womb. thus, smelling and feeling things inside the entry plug gives evidence that supports the existence of Rei 1 in EVA00.

as for EVA02, Kyouku is definately the soul in the EVA02's core. you can't really argue about it. who else can it be in there? Asuka? :rolleys:

[AchtungAffen]

I have the doubt... perhaps it was Rei 002 who played also as the resident soul for Eva 00.

As we know (and there are some pics on the series too), there were only 3 Reis. If they used Rei 001 as the soul for Eva 00, they made the contact experiment without the loss of the donor, because if not, we would have 4 Reis. So, but I could also argue that they used Rei 002, and there wouldn't be much denial. I mean, Shinji senses a different Ayanami... but if the Ayanami they used was Rei 002 from before Shinji knew her, it would still be different, right?

[ReichuRachiel]

Hmm... Somehow I don't think my idea on the "smells like Rei" bit completely 'registered' with everyone. No matter...

There are other reasons why the Rei-in-Zerogouki bit don't make any sense to me. Since only "motherless children" are eligible as Eva pilots, would it not make sense that only Lilim mothers would be fitting "soul donors"? But that's another argument altogether... At any rate, if one buys that premise, using a little clone-girl who's only been around for six years for Contact with an Eva just doesn't make =any= sense. Why the heck would Gendou want to do this, anyway? Also... Regarding the "Rei-01 in Eva-00" postulate -- if that were the case, why would Rei have so much trouble synchronizing with Zero? If that's Naoko in there, Rei's difficulties make a little more sense.

Naoko killed herself, and, since the soul resides in the body for an indeterminate period following death (recall Rei-tachi going around melting down corpses in EoE), she was "available". Since they evidently bothered waiting until 2010 to "be-soul" a =Prototype= Evangelion, I theorized that the only reason they went through with it at ALL was because an opportunity to make one of them functional presented itself. How the heck do you perform a Contact Experiment with a corpse? You've got me. Maybe if the Lilim "sacrifice" is already dead, you don't need a Contact Experiment. Who knows.

Of course, to make the Naoko theory work, it's necessary to find at SOME semblance of an explanation for the reason Shinji has visions of Rei inside Zerogouki... And, well, I really can't explain that one too well. [Some things in NGE just don't seem worth the mental effort...] If nothing else, I've imagined that perhaps Naoko was probing Shinji's brain in some way, though I'm sure you people would have fun tearing that idea apart. ::P

Also, I never once thought that Kyoko's soul was in two places at once. After the EVA-02 Contact Experiment, it was in Nigouki, and Kyoko became an empty husk.* Yui's case was the exception, evidently -- since she knew what would happen and she WANTED to become part of Shogouki, the fact that she achieved the infamous "400% Sychronization" and melted into a puddle of goo makes sense.

Unlike Yui, Kyoko probably did NOT know the true function of Contact and, had she known, would not have sacrificed her human existence to breath life into an Eva. Hers could be a case where, after Contact, the "soul donor"'s body was intact even after the removal of the soul. And, in the soul's absense, the mind collapses and the body tries to find a way to destroy itself -- at least if Kyoko was any indication. The fact that Kyoko's child met all of the requirements for being an Eva pilot was probably a "convenience", if nothing else, and Asuka was probably selected soon as the stability of EVA-02's core was confirmed. How fitting that Kyoko's corporeal death would occur shortly after...

Those are just my ideas. Of course no one has to buy them.

* People commonly like to cite the point that Kyoko's body, in the absense of a soul and, hence, A.T. Field, should have melted into LCL, though I think that only happened in EoE because of the "anti A.T. Fields". They had the M.P. Eva Series generate those things for a reason, you know.

--Reichu

[Black_Knight]

Originally posted by AchtungAffen
WEll, this looks like evidence to me:


The experiment, the contact experiment (we all know what that means) was the result of the mental breakdown?

They throw a stone there hard not to notice... the same way the RCB says "and her soul appears to be that of Lillit" or with Yui "her soul appears to have been made to dwell in Eva 01".

Asuka was designated pilot before Kyouko died, because Asuka runs to tell her she was designated, and then finds her dead, obviously, because she presumed Kyouko was still alive.


Only that the images Shinji sees are from Rei 002, not Rei 001, not the memories Naoko had when Rei was little, not one of them was shown.

Evidence is one your side? *Scoofs* are you that Navie?

So there was a contact experment, does that mean the soul transfers over to the Eva? No... Yui was absorbed into Eva-01, and you keep useing that as a precident.

Also Asuka was not designated as a pilot before Kyoko died. So Asuka ran to tell her she was designated, you have to remembe Kyoto was insane at the time and confined to a room where Asuka visited periodicly, perhaps not every day since she did not care for her mother. You shot yourself in the foot by even stateing, she presumed Kyoko was alive.


And also the contradiction is that Eva-01 smelled like Shinji, if the soul smelling idea was true, Eva-01 should smell like Yui...


ReichuRachiel, please talk to me, I am getting a little nervous over our lull...

[Kyrakasa]

What are we arguing over?

I'm going to keep this simple

Eva 02 is 100% kyoko... No one can deny that Eva-02 is inhabited by kyoko

I mean who's arguing that Kyoko isn't in Eva-02???? It's very clear when Asuka talks to Kyoko when she emerges from her coma...



Eva-00 is 100% a rei clone... How would Rei synch with Ritsuko's mother, that's impossible...


Also... Regarding the "Rei-01 in Eva-00" postulate -- if that were the case, why would Rei have so much trouble synchronizing with Zero? If that's Naoko in there, Rei's difficulties make a little more sense.-Reichu-

No it wouldn't... How would Rei synch with Ritsuko's mother, that's impossible... There would be 0% chance for Rei to synchronize with Naoko...

The difficulty arises when You try to synchronize with yourself... Have you noticed that Asuka synchronizes with her mother and Shinji synchronizes with both Yui and her clone......

The system works best if you synchronize with your mother... and that would be hard since you'd have to find yui's mom to do that...

So they used the second best thing which is the clone of herself...

Secondly...

Like the way Asuka talks to Kyoko and Shinji talks to Yui, you see Rei talks to herself when she begins to merge right before she self destructs. Rei begins to merge and YOU SEE NO ONE BUT REIS. She says she is lonely and in the end you have further proof that Eva-00 is Rei and Rei alone...

As you can see, There is no mention of Naoko anywhere... Even in Rei's death scene... In her death scene you see clearly that her eva is inhabited by her own soul... And no one elses...

I hope that settles that Naoko is useless...

If you want to continue arguing that Naoko is the soul of Eva-00 then you'll just be arguing about the uselessness of Naoko...

I'm talking about the countless times Rei sacrifices herself to save shinji... Don't you think Naoko would have interfered if she was the soul of the Eva?

Everytime Eva-00 does exactly what a mother would do for her child and protect Shinji as Rei the clone of Yui does over and over again...

Instead of killing Rei and Shinji the son of her most hated enemy, she continuesly saves them???. Doesn't that seem strange if you are saying that Naoko goes berserk twice in a row? Geez that's alot of baloney...

Naoko hates Yui and Rei wouldn't it be logical to go berserk and kill what's most precious to both of them?

Instead you'll find over and over that Eva-00 protects Shinji till Eva-00 died...

Now both of you Eva lovers... Black knight and Reichu Rachel would have to agree with me that Eva-00 acted with complete devotion to shinji...

And that would be something that Naoko would never do.



~_~

:liplick:

[ReichuRachiel]

I personally don't think the requirements for synching with an Eva are =quite= as stringent as some people seem to think, but I won't get into that... Rei, having that "I'm angelic so I can synch with anything" thing going for her, would be able to synch with EVA-00 no matter WHO the resident soul was.

I do get a bit annoyed that Anno doesn't really provide anything substantial on the Zerogouki soul bit (except for random odds and ends that could or could not be interpreted as "evidence"). In the end, it IS a matter of opinion and how you relate to the series as a whole. For me, the Rei-in-Zerogouki idea is silly (for reasons I have already detailed) and there is much more "drama" if Naoko is in there.

For one thing, it means that, even after her suicide, she is still being exploited by the man she loved. This time, though, she has no control over anything. Her body is not hers to control -- much as she tries to fight it, Naoko is constantly dominated by the girl she thought she had destroyed (i.e., Rei). The two times Naoko actually does manage to break free of Lilim control, she only succeeds in expressing her pent-up rage towards the people she hates [punching the window of the observation center] or towards her imprisonment as an Evangelion [trying to break through the wall of the chamber enclosing her].

But, for whatever reason, the two "berserk" incidents are the exception, and the rest of the time Rei keeps Naoko in submission, without the power to interfere with what Rei decides to do with Zerogouki. Yui really does seem to me like the exception as far as Evas-acting-on-their-own-free-will go; even Kyoko remains completely passive until 25' and, even then, -she- shares her Eva body and powers with her daughter rather than assume full control. On the other hand, Naoko does not have =any= control. Just as when she was still human (human in the traditional sense, anyway), she was but a puppet.

I always assumed that, in episode 23, Rei was talking to Armisael before she starts crying rather than to herself. Armisael did opt to associate itself with Rei on some level -- it even took on her physical form in order to approach EVA-01 and Shinji. (This is only in the new production cut, BTW.)

BTW, I would hardly call Naoko "useless". She pioneered the technology behind using the human brain as the core of a super-computer (the MAGI) which would eventually be used at SEELE and the NERV branches, and -- this one depends on your views, of course -- her soul made a previously "useless" Evangelion prototype functional. Hardly useless, despite what Rei-01 might have rather mischievously said.

That is just my interpretation. Everyone must, naturally, find what "NGE" means to =them=. That's one of the things about the show that makes it so wonderful.

[Kyrakasa]

But, for whatever reason, the two "berserk" incidents are the exception, and the rest of the time Rei keeps Naoko in submission, without the power to interfere with what Rei decides to do with Zerogouki-Reichu-


All I'm saying is that if you Say Naoko is in Eva-00 then her soul is completely useless...

Utterly powerless... I hope you don't take me out of context.

For the entire series her soul would be a useless blob... Doing nothing and having no control...

Besides, Naoko is no angel... She killed Yui and was happy to do so..... So Rei made her go splat.... And that's it~! she just went splat.... Sorry, No parade...


Also your arguement that Rei is Angelic and therefore synchable with everything... Is flawed. All angels have different abilities... Just because Kawarou could synch with everything doesn't mean Rei can. You personally said she was having ALOT OF DIFFICULTY synching with Eva-00. If she can synch with everything than your premis is 100% wrong.

The reason she couldn't synch well, would be because she was synching with another Rei or herself...

Why Can't you see the problems Rei has in synching with herself in the first place with Eva-01... She has alot of trouble synching with Eva-01 because ONCE AGAIN she's trying to synch with Yui, which is the same as synching with another Rei clone... Try seeing the Whole picture... Then you'll see that Naoko isn't even in the picture...

Also I can push aside that arguement Rei can synch with everything with one statement...

"Shinji synched with Eva-00... ARe you trying to Say Shinji has the same Angelic powers?"

Can't you see that it would HAVE TO BE Rei or Yui for Shinji to synch...

It's simple Eva-00 has to have a soul of Yui or Rei's for Shinji to synch AT ALL.

[GuGuEaTeR]

how can you sync with the same you that would hate your existence because it replaced you? how can you ever like a being that was to be you who took your place because you became useless?

exactly why Rei 02 can't sync with Rei 00 easily.

[ReichuRachiel]

The same two problems still remain.

(A) I don't believe that one soul can be in two different places at the same time. (If souls could be "copied", I doubt the Contact Experiment would be that big a deal. Why would Yui sacrifice herself if she could just have "copied" her soul?)

(B) I don't believe that anyone but Lilim mothers are qualified to "be-soul" an Evangelion.

Many of the points I already made still stand, as well.

[Mav]

Originally posted by Kyrakasa
"Shinji synched with Eva-00... ARe you trying to Say Shinji has the same Angelic powers?"


Shinji only managed to sync up to the borderline; he didn't achieve "true" synchronisation before unit 00 went out of control. This is the only time in the series we see a human pilot try to sync with someone other than their mother, so we don't really have a frame of reference. This might well be what always happens when a human pilot tries to sync with an incompatible soul.

To have another Rei soul in unit 00, you have to invent a process for duplicating souls, something that isn't even remotely hinted at in the entire series. To my mind, this is a far bigger issue than the minor quibbles about the mechanism of synchronisation you get with the "Naoko scenario".

[Kyrakasa]

To have another Rei soul in unit 00, you have to invent a process for duplicating souls, something that isn't even remotely hinted at in the entire series-MAV-

Not remotely????

Try to remember the NINE Kawarou Souls in the MP EVAS....



I don't believe that anyone but Lilim mothers are qualified to "be-soul" an Evangelion.-Reichu-

Genetically Rei is a Lilim mother....

Why would Yui sacrifice herself if she could just have "copied" her soul?)-Reichu-

Yui did indeed copy herself... Rei shares the same memories and urges as Yui. If you can understand it.... The mind, soul, and body are forever connected.

~_~

:liplick:

[SeI ThIm]

Originally posted by Kyrakasa


...The mind, soul, and body are forever connected.

~_~

:liplick:

Well...just to add, Body mind and soul are not forever connected.

Body is only a representation of minds image. It is not required for ones existence. Example - Shinji being absorbed. His mind and soul remained 'alive' even what his body disappeared.

[Kyrakasa]

Well...just to add, Body mind and soul are not forever connected.

Body is only a representation of minds image. It is not required for ones existence. Example - Shinji being absorbed. His mind and soul remained 'alive' even what his body disappeared.-Sei Inn-

I respect your opinion, but Shinji's body was absorbed into Eva-01 the same way Yui's body was absorbed years ago...

When Shinji's body was recovered from Eva-01 his mind and soul came back with him...

In Anycase Your mind and body can never be separated...

Naoko's body went splat and she died...

There's just as much evidence of Naoko being a resident soul as someone saying Yui's mom is the resident soul...



~_~

:liplick:

[SeI ThIm]

Originally posted by Kyrakasa
I respect your opinion, but Shinji's body was absorbed into Eva-01 the same way Yui's body was absorbed years ago...

When Shinji's body was recovered from Eva-01 his mind and soul came back with him...

In Anycase Your mind and body can never be separated...

~_~

:liplick:

Ah...as Wigs once stated:

A humans physical form exists by virtue of it's AT Field, which exists by virtue of its soul. Thus ... the body is dependant on the soul. If a person dies, if their body dies, their soul must in effect "die" as well, at some point the soul must cease to produce the AT Field that maintains physical form.

I agree...and I know, that this is what you were trying to explain to me...

But...as far as I am concerned, a person CAN live without his/her body. It is possible...Humanity during Instrumentality, Shinji (Eva 01 accident), Yui...they all lived without their physical form.

Only soul and Mind are dependant on each other.

Just look at Shinji. He lost his body and still he had his memories. Does that mean, that he died? No...

His mind functioned because of the inseparable connection with soul.

If the death of the body meant the death of mind and soul, there would be nothing to salvage after the accident. Again...this is a possibility...and we saw it happening.

Wigs posted:
Shinji loses complete physical form in Eva-01, including his brain, yet he still retains his "mind", he still retains his memory. I think it is clear from this that the mind does not in fact reside with the brain at all in the Eva Universe, that it more linked with the soul.

EDIT: Btw...my nick is: SeI ThIm :P

[Kyrakasa]

Just look at Shinji. He lost his body and still he had his memories. Does that mean, that he died? No...

His mind functioned because of the inseparable connection with soul.

If the death of the body meant the death of mind and soul, there would be nothing to salvage after the accident. Again...this is a possibility...and we saw it happening.- Sei otaku-

Oh that's interesting what MDWigs says... Really I lack the eloquence he has and fumble to express myself...
MDWigs should be getting back from Japan now though...

But I think you should think over the mind body connection a little more...

Shinji didn't lose his body... His body became one with the Eva-01

The same way Rei has that mind-body connection with Yui... And having her emotions and thoughts.

The same way Rei told Shinji that Every person was able to return to earth if they wanted too after Complementation...

The fact is that everyone became one with... Their bodies weren't lost, it just became something different.

And if your heart and soul wished to return like Shinji and Asuka... Then you come back with your body...

In the end... I'm sure you're convinced by now that The Mind and soul is basically the same thing, they aren't just inseparable...

But the Body is Always connected to the mind/soul...




~_~

:liplick:

[ReichuRachiel]

Hmm... Seems things are getting a little off-subject, but no matter... As long as it's interesting!

I never really thought that Yui's body was absorbed into Shogouki. The Contact Experiment completely broke down her Ego Border (or some jargon along those lines ::p), her body reverted to LCL within the entry plug, and her soul/mind went to Shogouki (who was born with neither), which presumably formed the Eva's core (since the core is really just a compartment containing the soul, but that's another matter entirely).

The EoE theatrical program, if I recall, implies that, at this point, Yui's genetic material was salvaged from the entry plug and the first Rei was created from this. My own creative interpretation of this: Gendou and friends used this salvaged material to attempt to recreate Yui's body from part of Lilith's and 'summon' Yui's soul back into it -- recall that, according to some Japanese liner notes somewhere, Shogouki was still connected to Lilith at the time of her Contact Experiment. However, for reasons I can't even begin to guess at, Yui's clone-body ended up being immature and strangely albinized, plus Lilith's soul was summoned into it rather than Yui's. Does any of that make any sense? Probably not, but, then, a lot of stuff in NGE really doesn't.

Also, Kyrakasa, were you implying earlier that Rei contains not only Lilith's soul, but Yui's soul as well? (How much more complicated could things possibly get? ::brain explodes::)

--Reichu

[MDWigs]

Kyrakasa:

Oh that's interesting what MDWigs says... Really I lack the eloquence he has and fumble to express myself...
MDWigs should be getting back from Japan now though...

Thank you!

And yes I'm back. I flew home Sunday night and I've been telling stories and catching up on sleep ever since. I'll be transcribing my journal sometime in the next week and putting it online with pictures so those of your who are interested can check out what I got up to.

Now back into interesting Eva discussion! I've slowly been catching up with what I've missed. Please forgive me if I go over something again that has already been concluded.

Eva stated my opinions on why I think Naoko is not the soul of Eva-00 extensively elsewhere. So I won't got over it again here. Suffice to say that it is involved in the nature of Eva synchronisation, and I believe that Rei does in fact synchronise as the other pilots do. Kaworu is the odd one out, he is the one who doesn't synchronise normally, which is why everyone comments on it, saying it is "impossible" when he does it in episode 24. Saying Rei can pilot anything because of her "Angelic" nature doesn't hold up in my opinion (and I would also argue that the term "Angelic" is inappropriate, as Rei has a human body and the soul of the progenitor of humanity. She is not an "Angel", in the sense that she is not a child of Adam, and if you apply the "everything is an Angel" definition then using the term as a distinction becomes meaningless.)

Anyway I'll leave that issue for now unless anyone wants to go back to it. I want to focus on the newer issues that have been brought up, particularly the Soul-Mind-Body connection. I also want to touch on Rei's origins again.

There are two instances of individuals losing physical form and two instances of multiple people losing physical form in the series. The individual instances both take place in close proximity to an Eva/source of life (Eva-01 and Lilith) and involve Yui and Shinji. The multiple instances involve Anti-AT Fields and coincide with the Second and Third Impacts.

I'll start by discussing the Third Impact portrayed in EoE and then work backwards. During EoE Lilith's Anti-AT Field removed everyone's physical forms, their bodies reverted to LCL. The LCL that formed everyone’s bodies eventually gathered in a great sea of LCL. In my opinion the LCL comprises everything that makes up the human body, from it any body can be reconstructed, it just needs an ego-border (ie a soul and an AT Field) to hold it together. I don't think that and certain piece of that sea of LCL is specific to a particular person. I think a person's body can be reformed from any part, it doesn't matter because it is the soul which actually gives takes the LCL and gives it shape. As for the mind-body connection SeI ThIm summed up my position well. In my opinion the mind must reside with the soul, because for a time a least, the soul is separate from the body, and also the makeup of the body is changed so that any possible physical container for the mind (eg. the brain) no longer exists.

Now onto Rei's origins. Rei was "salvaged" from Eva-01.

Maya explains the process in episode 20: "Salvaging means reconstructing his body and fixing his soul into it." That is the process they are trying on Shinji.

The same process was attempted on Yui. Ritsuko says so in episode 20, "What a shame that I didn't create the original plan. These are data which came from experiments done 10 years ago." She says this in 2015 and Rei was "born" in 2005 (Rei-001 was 5 when she was killed in 2010 according to the Eva Encyclopaedia III), so I think it is clear she is referring to the experiment involving Yui. Also the EoE Theatrical Program specifically uses the term "salvage".

They tried "salvage" Yui, tried to reconstruct her body and then fix her soul into it.

She was absorbed into Eva-01, at that time however Eva-01 was attached to Lilith. "Lilith to Shogôki ga tsunagatta jôtai de Yui wa, Lilith ni sesshoku shi torikomareteshimatta no darô." (Yui performed contact when Liltih and Eva-01 were joined, and was absorbed) - Liner notes from the LD release of episode 23.

So Yui wasn't just absorbed into Eva-01, for all intents and purposes she was absorbed into Lilith as well. They then tried to salvage her, they tried to reconstruct her body and place her soul into it.

But Yui didn't want to come back. Yui wanted to stay (see the flashback scenes to 2003 in the Eva DC episodes and EoE plus the EOE program entry).

In my opinion they managed to reconstruct Yui's body, but instead of fixing Yui's soul in it they fixed Lilith's soul instead.

They recreated Shinji's body from the primordial soup in the entry plug (at least that is what they attempted). We know LCL comes from Lilith, we know that Yui was absorbed _into_ Lilith, we know they tried to reconstruct her body out of that.

That is where the connection lies in my opinion.

[GuGuEaTeR]

good thing MDWigs' back :agree:

[ReichuRachiel]

Ah, Wigs-sama hath returned! I don't really stand a chance against the likes of thee, but why not try my luck anyway...

I probably read your opinions on Naoko sometime in the past, but I could likely use some refreshing on the matter. Needless to say, I'm so doggedly determined that Akagi-hakase is inside the cycloptic wonder I'll likely believe it until the end of time no matter WHAT anyone says. [This is mostly because I've written a considerable amount of material for an involved doujinshi -- all for personal amusement, of course -- that only works so long as my strange ideas about Evas are in place, the Naoko/Zerogouki connection included. Naoko as Zerogouki actually has -=wonderful=- character potential, in my opinion... but that's another matter entirely!!] Regardless, I like to be informed on the theories out there, so I can at least say I'm making the "educated decision" of sticking with an idea that's blatantly "wrong". Or something like that.

Originally posted by MDWigs
Saying Rei can pilot anything because of her "Angelic" nature doesn't hold up in my opinion (and I would also argue that the term "Angelic" is inappropriate, as Rei has a human body and the soul of the progenitor of humanity. She is not an "Angel", in the sense that she is not a child of Adam, and if you apply the "everything is an Angel" definition then using the term as a distinction becomes meaningless.)

Interesting... I'll keep all that in mind.

As for your ideas on Rei's origins -- interestingly, I came to many of the same conclusions independently. The concept that Rei was created in an attempt to re-fix Yui's soul back into a Lilim body, but Lilith's soul was fixed into it instead, and so on.

We know LCL comes from Lilith

Actually, it comes from Evas, as well. The core is full of LCL, a fact demonstrated at least three times in the anime.

1) episode 20: Shinji's body is reformed out of Shogouki's core [which works with the points you just made about bodies and LCL].

2) episode 23': Zerogouki's core swells once it begins to absorb Armisael and, once it reaches a certain size, the red shell cracks open (ouch...) and some LCL can be seen escaping.

3) episode 26': When Shogouki's core swells to more massive proportions, a large amount of LCL escapes.

This neatly explains the "light in water" image seen in the anime (the intro; right before Shogouki "awakens" in episode 19) rather nicely -- it's a representation of Yui's soul within the liquid medium of the core. Additional, I think that the LCL used to fill the entry plugs comes straight from the Evas' cores. Makes sense, especially considering the side of the plug deepest into the Eva would actually come in contact with the core to some degree or another.

So Yui wasn't just absorbed into Eva-01, for all intents and purposes she was absorbed into Lilith as well.

Only her soul/mind, I would presume. Her body couldn't have been truly absorbed if it was floating around in LCL form inside the entry plug.

This discussion brings a few questions to my mind, though.

1) What caused Lilith's soul to go to the Yui clone? [Was this something that Lilith did intentionally...? Going out on a limb, there.]

2) Why was the Yui clone (i.e., Rei-01) juvenile and albinized?

3) What prompted the creation of additional clones? And how exactly does the mechanic that makes Lilith's soul go to another Rei clone upon the death of the previous one -- rather than back to Lilith's original body -- work?

Enough for now. My brain is on the brink of spontaneously exploding.

--Reichu

[SeI ThIm]

I agree with what MDWigs said and with GuGuEaTeR.

[GuGuEaTeR]

Originally posted by ReichuRachiel
1) What caused Lilith's soul to go to the Yui clone? [Was this something that Lilith did intentionally...? Going out on a limb, there.

i predict that Gendo forced Lilith's soul to go into Rei, and make it stay there.

2) Why was the Yui clone (i.e., Rei-01) juvenile and albinized?

possibly lack of genetic technology, or that's the most they could salvage from. perhaps the DNA was lost to a degree that required reconstruction.

3) What prompted the creation of additional clones? And how exactly does the mechanic that makes Lilith's soul go to another Rei clone upon the death of the previous one -- rather than back to Lilith's original body -- work?

what started the creation of more clones? i suppose they wanted a whole supply of Rei for things such as making dummy plugs and replacing pilots. or perhaps Gendo just couldn't wait for a few years to pass to see Yui, and until then was happy with Rei.

Enough for now. My brain is on the brink of spontaneously exploding.

--Reichu

THAT's the beauty of NGE.

[edit] just fixing some quote tag problems...

[Kyrakasa]

MDWigs~! I'm PMing you right away... You have to tell me all about your Trip~!

I bet you had a BLAST.... Went and Saw the RahXephon Movie...


I can go on... and on...



Hmm...

Only her soul/mind, I would presume. Her body couldn't have been truly absorbed if it was floating around in LCL form inside the entry plug.-Reichu-

The way I see it is that the body is transformed into LCL... Which is as you say a part of the Eva...

Actually, it comes from Evas, as well. The core is full of LCL, a fact demonstrated at least three times in the anime.-Reichu-

It doesn't matter too much who makes LCL... The fact is that LCL is what Human bodies are formed from... When you lose the AT-field your body doesn't dissapear... It just goes back to what it was... LCL

As for the mind-body connection SeI ThIm summed up my position well. In my opinion the mind must reside with the soul, because for a time a least, the soul is separate from the body, and also the makeup of the body is changed so that any possible physical container for the mind (eg. the brain) no longer exists.
-MDWigs-

I Challenge you MDWigs... :lol: I must be out of my mind... :liplick:

Your body is directly connected to your mind/soul... And your mind is the same as your soul...

When you revert back to LCL... Your body is still there and simply in a different form...

Look at the time when Shinji was reverted....

the first time is when he was absorbed into Eva-01 his body became LCL and he couldn't see his "physical body"... instead all he sees in the "physical world" is the LCL that was his "physical body"...

What he does see is his "body" in his mind... A mental image of himself and of the people he love....

So his body is where his mind is...


------------

And one further arguement for the Body can never be separated from the mind/soul is that Humans could never have Bodies if there isn't LCL.

Human bodies would never be formed without LCL so LCL is our bodies without an AT-field...

LCL = Body with no AT-Field

If Eva-01 is destroyed so would be Yui......

After Complementation... If Eva-01 was destroyed then all humanity that did not chose to remain on earth would be destroyed with it...


The reason I say that once the body is destroyed then the mind/soul is destroyed as well is from the Evangelion standpoint that there is no afterlife...

In Eva there is no afterlife... That is why Human Instrumentality was even conceived... This isn't religious... Humans cease to be after their bodies decay... Their souls/minds die... That is why Misato and those who recently died before Instrumentality were included in the complementation...

In the end the Human instrumentality project preserved the human souls/minds in a new body... The body of Eva-01...


All of this of course is only in the Evangelion Universe... but that's what we're talking about... Aren't we?



~_~

:liplick:

[ReichuRachiel]

Originally posted by Kyrakasa
The way I see it is that the body is transformed into LCL... Which is as you say a part of the Eva...

Well, slight technicality here... The LCL is inside the entry plug, which is inside an artificial cavity inside the Eva's upper thorax (inside, inside, inside, blah!). It's not a "natural" part of the Eva (not that there's anything really natural about Evas to begin with), and the entry plug is not a permanent part of an Eva anyway. It can be taken out. Ergo, if you're LCL floating around inside an entry plug, you're no longer "part of" the Eva as soon as you take the entry plug out.

Pointless technicalities, I know. I'm just a technical kind of person, I guess.

Your body is directly connected to your mind/soul... And your mind is the same as your soul...

My own interpretation is that soul and mind are connected, but separate ideas, if you will... The soul is the most basic unit, and the "mind" is all the extra baggage that gets added onto it as a soul experiences life via a body.

In Eva there is no afterlife...

This does seem to be the case. However, just from a personal perspective, I never saw the idea of "reincarnation" being completely exempt from the mythos. Would a soul necessarily die with its body? Why couldn't souls be "recycled", in the same sense that biomass cycles from the dead to the living and back again? If this were so, however, the "mind" component would presumably die with the body, but the soul would be free to begin the experience of life anew.

Not that any of that has any real relevance to NGE, but I find it interesting to see how new ideas might be able to fit into the NGE mythos. (What a great mythos it is...)

If Eva-01 was destroyed then all humanity that did not chose to remain on earth would be destroyed with it...

I haven't seen the end of EoE in a while, though I never had the specific impression that Shogouki became a vessel for the "liberated souls". Lilith/"Uber-Rei" was gathering them into the Black Moon, though what happened to them after the egg was destroyed? Weren't they all freed and allowed to choose whatever fate they wanted? Certainly, though, the idea that Yui floated off to bide her time for eternity on the moon with the liberated souls of humanity has some merit... I shall have to ponder this idea further.

In the end the Human instrumentality project preserved the human souls/minds in a new body... The body of Eva-01...

As I already said, it's an interesting idea... But Shogouki's body had been in existence since 2004. How does this "preservation" idea work, exactly? Yui is Shogouki's dominant soul/mind (Shogouki wasn't much more than a blob of flesh until Yui came along!). Just how many souls can fit inside one body?

Fascinating as this thread is, I'm still interested in the original subject. I know how popular the Rei-01 idea is and how sick everyone is of hearing the Naoko stuff, but, for my purposes, I ask this: Is there any way that Naoko =can= be inside Zerogouki? Not =can't=. =Can=.

[Mav]

Crap, I'm away for a couple of days and there's several pages to catch up on...which I can't be bothered to do right now, so I'll just respond to this one point:

Originally posted by Kyrakasa
Not remotely????

Try to remember the NINE Kawarou Souls in the MP EVAS....




I'm pretty sure they were just dummy plugs, with Kaoru clones inside instead of Rei clones, and dummy plugs don't have souls, as far as I'm aware. The eva series units certainly acted in a much more "bestial" manner than they would have if they were being controlled by an actual thinking Kaoru clone with a soul.

[ReichuRachiel]

Chikushou... I have to stop replying and give other people a chance to say something. Erm, after this post... ;;>

Originally posted by Mav
I'm pretty sure they were just dummy plugs, with Kaoru clones inside instead of Rei clones, and dummy plugs don't have souls, as far as I'm aware. The eva series units certainly acted in a much more "bestial" manner than they would have if they were being controlled by an actual thinking Kaoru clone with a soul.

Just a nitpick: The official spelling is "Kaworu". This is how the name is written in the Roman alphabet on all official... stuff. Just so you know.

::nod-nod:: Yes, "bestial" is certainly a good word for it. ::restrains self from spontaneously lamenting over Kyoko-sama, with much difficulty:: Good points made above, Mav. Personally, I've thought that every one of the MP Evas has her own unique soul. That's one of my Eva-related ideas, anyway -- every functional Eva "unit" required the sacrifice of a Lilim mother. [That's only one reason why I dislike the Rei-01/Zerogouki idea.]

It's a cute counterpoint to the whole thing with the Marduk organization and how Marduk was a Babylonian god to whom children were sacrificed, and all that... [That made no sense, I know.] Except that, for the Lilim mothers (as opposed to the Eva pilots), the "sacrifice" part is a bit more substantial -- both mind and soul go to the Eva, and come what may of the woman's body. Once Yui's groundbreaking work in 2004 established Contact as the "preferred method" for getting a soul into an Eva, I imagine that a little "organization" (akin to the Marduk deal) was formed in SEELE solely for selecting "qualified NERV employees ... who just happen to all be mothers" as candidates for Contact.

With the creation of the MP Evas, I imagine there was QUITE a flood of Contact Experiments going on at NERV's various branches. Covering up the "incidents" related to Contact must have been quite the job for SEELE, though. [Yui's body dissolved, Kyoko psychologically degraded over a number of weeks, and who knows *what* happened to the unnamed others.]

Ahhh... blatant speculation! What fun!!

--Reichu

[Edit: Bloody typos...]

[Kyrakasa]

Warning... I'm tired of being eloquent... I'm going to just yell... :lol: and see if it works... I'll let MDWigs come and explain his ideas if it doesn't....


http://www.cuteanimegirl.com/images/mdkyra_rah.jpg

Baka#$ BAK@ BAKA~!

Atleast use your head... :p ;)

Without an AT-field and soul a clone would not have human form...

Notice the Tub of Rei's... Each has it's own at-field... So as you can see Rei 1,2,3... All are different.... So are the other rei's...

They may share the same memories because of the way they are connected.... And that's the same way why Rei shares Yui's memories...

::smiles::

BAKA~!



~_~

:liplick:

[felineki]

Originally posted by Kyrakasa
[color=red] Warning... I'm tired of being eloquent... I'm going to just yell... :lol: and see if it works... I'll let MDWigs come and explain his ideas if it doesn't....

[b]Baka#$ BAK@ BAKA~!



HEY! NO ONE calls Rachel a baka while I'm around...

Watch it, or I'll force you to look at pictures of what EVA-00 and EVA-03 do with each other in their spare time...

[Kyrakasa]

Lol...

I was replying to MAV...

Besides... Asuka never was that great in eloquence.... she's usually pretty blunt...



~_~

:liplick:

[felineki]

Oh......

Sorry. :P

[MDWigs]

Firstly thanks to everyone for the welcoming ^_^

ReichuRachiel:

I probably read your opinions on Naoko sometime in the past, but I could likely use some refreshing on the matter.

I went and refreshed my memory of it as well. Here are some extracts from old posts of mine, with a few updates.

First lets clear up the "Eva-00 attacking people" episodes. A lot of people put forward Gendou or Rei as possible targets for Eva-00. If you watch the episodes closely though it is indicated that Ritsuko is the intended target.

The first incident happened in Episode 05. From that episode:


Misato:
Well, what was the cause of the accident of the last experiment?

Ritsuko:
It's unidentified even now. But the primary cause is estimated to be a mental instability of the pilot.

Misato:
A mental instability? That Rei?

Ritsuko:
Yes. She was disturbed much more than we could expect.

Misato:
What was happening?

Ritsuko:
I don't know. But she might have ...

Misato:
Do you have any idea?

Ritsuko:
No, that can't be.


Here it is clear that Ritsuko has and idea about what caused it. People assume that Eva-00 was attacking either Rei or Gendou because they were standing closest to the front. But Ritsuko was also there too, in fact she was running the experiment.

Ok now the next time Eva-00 goes nuts is with Shinji in Episode 14, I'll look into this sequence a little deeper later, for now I am just interested in the following passage:


Misato:
Is it that it tried to kill Rei? That Unit Zero tried?

-----------------------

Misato:
This incident has something to do with that incident of going wild? That incident of Rei?

Ritsuko:
Nothing I can say now. One thing I can say now is, after returning the personal data of Rei to Unit Zero, another synchronization test between Rei and Unit Zero is necessary.

Misato:
As the planning manager, I request you to do it immediately, before it troubles our job.

Ritsuko:
I know. Sansa Katsuragi.

Ritsuko:
The target that Unit Zero tried to attack must have been I. No doubt.


Ritsuko says "machigai naku" which means "without a doubt". Ritsuko thinks that Misato is wrong, that Eva-00 wasn't attacking Rei, it was attacking her. Linking this with what she said in Episode 05 it is clear that Ritsuko knows why Eva-00 attacked and she links that with her being the target. Ritsuko probably knows more about the Eva's than anyone else alive, she would certainly know whose souls were inside of them. She knew that Eva-00 was after her, she said so "without a doubt".

So we have two incidents of Eva-00 going crazy. One with Rei inside, where Ritsuko thought she knew what was wrong, and the second with Shinji inside, where, upon hearing Misato speculate that it was after Rei, Ritsuko disagrees thinking that it must have been after her. Ritsuko states that she is the target "without a doubt", I don't think you can get much clearer than that.

I'm happy to argue this point further if anyone would like. However I really do think that Ritsuko is the only plusable target for Eva-00.

Now an important thing to consider when thinking about whose soul is in Eva-00 is the nature of the synchronisation process between pilot and Eva. It is the A-10 nerve link that is responsibly for the connection between the pilot and the Eva (so says Sadamoto in an interview in the first collected Manga, and so is described in the EoE Theatrical Program). The A-10 nerve is what the Eva's connections are built around.

So keeping that in mind, lets look at the pilot candidates. All of the children in Shinji's class are potential Eva pilots (so described by Ritsuko in episode 17), the EoE theatrical program also states this fact, and goes further to say that what is common between these children is that they have all "lost" their mothers.

Ok, so we have a class of motherless children who are potential pilots for the Evas. Now we also have two pilots whose mother's souls are in their Evas (Shinji and Yui in Eva-01 and Asuka and Kyouko in Eva-02). Add this to the fact that the A-10 nerve, a critical component of the synchronisation process is described in the Death and Rebirth Dulux Theatrical Program as playing, "an important role in affection between parent and child" I think it is shown that the basis of the Eva/pilot connection is a mother/child relationship.

The mother/child relationship is the foundation of the Eva/pilot connection in my opinion. I've heard many other ideas, and I'm more than happy to discuss this issue in more depth, but from the canon facts given I think this is the most solid theory.

Anyway so this is all just groundwork that goes to show some reasons why Naoko isn't a possible candidate for the soul of Eva-00.

So lets go back to episode 14.


First Compatibility Experiment
Subject: Rei Ayanami

Ritsuko: The sync-ratio is almost the same, as with Unit Zero.

Maya: Unit Zero and Unit One's personal data patterns, are almost identical.

Ritsuko: That's what makes this sync experiment possible.

Maya: Error margin is 0.03. Harmonics are normal.

Ritsuko: No detectable problems found for compatibility between Rei and Unit One.

Ritsuko: Ok, the test is over, Rei. You can get out now.

Rei: Yes.


Here Ritsuko states that the reason the experiment is possible, the reason that Rei can pilot Eva-01, is that there is that Eva-01 and Eva-00's personal data patterns are almost identical. That means that being in Eva-01 is almost identical to the being in Eva-00. Rei can pilot Eva-01, and can synch with Yui, because in my opinion Rei is effectively Yui's child, Rei is a clone of Yui and thus there is a link there.

There is a link between Rei and Yui, and thus between Eva-01 and Eva-00. Note that Asuka and Eva-02 are not involved in these compatibility tests. In fact in the Evangelion Photo Book - 2015 : The Last Year of Ryoji Kaji, it is stated explicitly that the pilots are only interchangeable between Eva-01 and Eva-00. Asuka and Eva-02 are incompatible, only Shinji and Rei, Eva-01 and Eva-00 are involved in the mutual compatibility tests. Keep in mind throughout this explanation the need for a mother/child link I put forward above. The only reason Rei can pilot Eva-01 and Shinji can pilot Eva-00, is because the souls of Eva-00 and Eva-01 are similar according to Ritsuko, and in my opinion they are similar specifically in a mother/child way.

Now lets move only Shinji's test.


Ritsuko:
A-10 Nerve connection started.

Announce:
Harmonics Level plus 20.

Shinji:
WOW, what's this? Something is entering directly into my head, what? Ayanami? Ayanami Rei? It's Rei, this feeling is Rei's. Ayanami? Aren't you?

Misato:
What's the matter?

Announce:
Pilot's nerve-plus in irregular.

Maya:
Psychological pollution is taking place.

Ritsuko:
Unbelievable! This plug depth does not trigger that.

Maya:
No, Not from the plug. The invasion from Eva.


Ok so two points from this scene.

(1) Maya says that the contact is coming from the Eva, not the plug. So what Shinji is seeing, what is entering his head is coming from the Eva itself. A contact is coming from the Eva itself, in my opinion it is the soul of Eva-00.

(2) Shinji first recognises this presence as Rei. Then realises that there is something strange about her, that it isn't really Rei, but a strange smiling childish Rei that isn't the Rei he knows.

OK so what we have here is Shinji being "contacted" by the Eva's soul, and Shinji "recognising" this contact as coming from something Rei-like.

I'm going to leave it there and let people make up their own minds, becuase I don't really want to go fully into who I think is in Eva-00, rather just show why I don't think Naoko is a possibility. Just a few things to consider.

1. The Eva's work on a mother/child link.
2. Rei and Shinji are compatible in each other's Evas because those Evas have similar personality patterns.
3. Ritsuko states that Eva-00 attacked her "without a doubt".
4. Shinji sees something "Rei-like" coming from Eva-00 itself.

So whose soul is in Eva-00? Well it would have to be someone similar to Yui, and capable of forming a mother/child link with Shinji. It would also have to have a grudge against Ritsuko.

In my opinion Naoko doesn't even come into the picture. She had nothing to do with the Evas, she wasn't an Eva scientist, she was there to work on the Magi. She was a computer scientist, not involved directly in Project E like Yui or Kyouko. She certainly doesn't fit the role of a "mother" to either Shinji or Rei. As far as I can see, the only think she has going for her as a possible candidate is that she is dead and a woman. Naoko (upon her death) also had no motivations for attacking Ritsuko.

So there is the short of it ^_^ It's still rather long, but I'm happy to go into specific sections in my depth is people want to discuss it.

Needless to say, I'm so doggedly determined that Akagi-hakase is inside the cycloptic wonder I'll likely believe it until the end of time no matter WHAT anyone says.

Well that seems to be the majority opinion, even though I've spent years campaigning against it. I think that it might have been one of those pieces of misinformation that were spawned by ADV like the "First Impact killed off the dinosaurs" or "the children are born exactly 9 months after the Second Impact". So many people believe it, yet there is not real evidence within the series to support it.

[This is mostly because I've written a considerable amount of material for an involved doujinshi -- all for personal amusement, of course -- that only works so long as my strange ideas about Evas are in place, the Naoko/Zerogouki connection included. Naoko as Zerogouki actually has -=wonderful=- character potential, in my opinion... but that's another matter entirely!!]

Hehe oh well in that case... ^_^

Regardless, I like to be informed on the theories out there, so I can at least say I'm making the "educated decision" of sticking with an idea that's blatantly "wrong". Or something like that.

Heheh well that's an interesting position to take ^^

RE: Rei's "Angelic" nature:
Interesting... I'll keep all that in mind.

My main gripe in the past about this has been people saying that Rei is "part Angel", which in my opinion makes no sense at all. There are two definitions of Angel used within the series. Angel as in SEELE's list of Angel's, that encompasses Adam and Lilith (the first and second Angels) the 15 actual Angels (3 through 17) and Humanity (the 18th Angel), this definition effectively covers everything, according to it, all beings are Angels. The other definition is "Children of Adam", the Angels are those beings born from Adam, namely Angels 3 through 17 on SEELE's list. It is these Angels who received the fruit of life and they are distinctly different from the children of Lilith, humanity, who received the fruit of wisdom. So with those two established definitions (used in different places throughout the series, movies and in canon documents) the term "part Angel" to describe Rei just doesn't make sense if she has a human body and the soul of the progenitor of humanity, either no part of her is a child of Adam (and thus she isn't an Angel at all) or every part of her is Angelic (Human and Lilith) and thus she is a complete Angel. It's a small thing to nitpick, but I think the term (that other people, elsewhere in the past have used) leads to a misunderstanding about Rei.

As for your ideas on Rei's origins -- interestingly, I came to many of the same conclusions independently. The concept that Rei was created in an attempt to re-fix Yui's soul back into a Lilim body, but Lilith's soul was fixed into it instead, and so on.


I am surprised that more people haven't come to the same conclusion independently. One of the most important direct references to Yui's accident in the series (in episode 20) refers to a salvage attempt, the aim of a salvage attempt is described and the EoE theatrical program specifically says that Rei was "salvaged" after Yui was absorbed. The ideas seem to flow together quite well in my opinion. I'm glad that you agree.

Actually, it comes from Evas, as well. The core is full of LCL, a fact demonstrated at least three times in the anime.

<Snip Examples, all of which I agree with>

The issue I have with the idea that LCL comes from the Evas, is that the Core of an Eva is removable (Touji's core had to be prepared. The techs were amazed that Kaworu could pilot Eva-02 without reconfiguring the Core) and the Core is also the home of the entry plug. There is a concept sketch (which I can't find a scan of at the moment) that shows a cross section of the Core and an Entry plug going down and sitting within it. The Entry plug contains LCL, and the Evas Cores (which are all specially prepared to contain human souls) could have been filled with LCL. Ritsuko says that all the Evas are initially without souls, and then they are given them. This process could include getting LCL frm Lilith.

This neatly explains the "light in water" image seen in the anime (the intro; right before Shogouki "awakens" in episode 19) rather nicely -- it's a representation of Yui's soul within the liquid medium of the core. Additional, I think that the LCL used to fill the entry plugs comes straight from the Evas' cores. Makes sense, especially considering the side of the plug deepest into the Eva would actually come in contact with the core to some degree or another.

I agree that the Cores are probably filled with LCL, but I don't think it comes from the Eva's themselves (maybe Eva-01, but that's a _really_ complicated issue). The Evas bleed red blood, and we never see LCL come from anywhere but their Cores. This is really a side issue though; my main point was centred on the salvaging of Yui directly from Lilith, which could form the connection.

On the issue, it is also interesting to note that Lilith doesn't appear to have a Core, but Eva-01 does. I've speculated before that when Eva-01 was separated from Lilith, that perhaps it "took" Lilith's Core (containing Yui) with it. Lets say that Lilith's soul resided in Lilith's Core within Lilith's body. Yui is absorbed into Lilith (presumably into its Core if one existed). Then they tried to salvage her, but she didn't want to come, so instead of Yui's soul being removed from the Core, Lilith's was. Then when they severed Eva-01 from Lilith, the Core went with Eva-01 and thus so did Yui, which is why in the end you are left with a completely soulless Lilith. Just speculation though, I haven't really thought about that idea fully yet.

Only her soul/mind, I would presume. Her body couldn't have been truly absorbed if it was floating around in LCL form inside the entry plug.

Well before we get to ahead of ourselves, do we know she was inside of an Entry Plug? It's been a while since I've reviewed the relevant scenes so I can't remember if anything specifically is mentioned about her being in one.

Assuming she is though, I don't think that it is that much of a problem. Shinji got "out" of his entry plug (with lots of other stuff involved), I don't think that she was "trapped" as such. Though see the explanation about about the Lilith's Core, which might make this issue moot.

1) What caused Lilith's soul to go to the Yui clone? [Was this something that Lilith did intentionally...? Going out on a limb, there.]

Maybe she was just floating around, minding her own business, an outside influence came along to pull 'a' soul out, Yui held on, Lilith didn't, and thus Lilith ended up in the clone. I don't know, I've got to think about it some more.

2) Why was the Yui clone (i.e., Rei-01) juvenile and albinized?

I still can't get away from the image of all those little white legs sticking out of Lilith's torso. That seems to indicate (to me at least) that Rei was created directly out of Lilith (which would consequently explain her paleness). Of course the dots don't all join up there, so I think we need to come up with something else.

3) What prompted the creation of additional clones?

Well from the EoE theatrical program, "Her body was created from the salvaged remains of Yui Ikari after Yui was taken into the Eva, and numerous Rei clones were then prepared in Terminal Dogma so that when one Rei dies she can be replaced by another." So that would seem to indicate that the purpose was as spare parts. However what I find interesting is the use of the word "prepared", which I think could possibly be interpreted as "harvesting" as such from Lilith and then getting them ready. This whole idea stream is pretty out there though, but then again I've pushed around ideas about why a 14 year old Misato was down in Antarctica during the Second Impact, so not all my theories are completely grounded (*gasp* yes it's true).

And how exactly does the mechanic that makes Lilith's soul go to another Rei clone upon the death of the previous one -- rather than back to Lilith's original body -- work?

That is really a mystery. I've got some ideas, but nothing that I think holds up to proper scrutiny.

Kyrakasa:

I bet you had a BLAST.... Went and Saw the RahXephon Movie...

Yeah it was fantastic. Didn't see the Rah Movie, just lots of posters around for the DVD release (which is still a while away). Was going to see Battle Royale 2, but ran out of time/money. I'll have my full report up soon.


I Challenge you MDWigs... I must be out of my mind...

Your body is directly connected to your mind/soul... And your mind is the same as your soul...

Actually I just want to add some further clarification to the mind/soul thing. In episode 24 Kaworu refers to the "light of the soul", the actual Japanese he uses is "kokoro no hikari", and "Kokoru" can mean Mind, or Soul, or Heart. Tamashii (just soul) is not used here. So the term here literally means mind/soul. Anyway that was just a little aside.

When you revert back to LCL... Your body is still there and simply in a different form...


Well I'll just quote a few bits from episode 26 here, becuase I think the writers explained this issue in general extremely well. I think the bigger issue here is how the mind/soul influences the body and vice-versa. If we take LCL as an indiscriminate pool from which any body can be created based upon the image formed by the mind then I think things become a lot clearer. Anyway the quotes...


Shinji: Then what am I? What am I?!

Shinji: Wait. What is this? This is me. This is the shape that lets others recognise me as myself. It is my symbol for myself. This is and this is and this is as well.

Shinji Ikari

Shinji: Representations, everything is merely a description not the real myself. Everything is simply a shape, a form, an identifier, to let others recognise me as me.

What am I?

Shinji: But then, what am I? Is this me? My true self? My fake self? What is it that I am?

Rei: You are you. There is little difference between how you interpret yourself and how the others interpret you.

Shinji: Right. My clothes, my shoes, my room. These are all parts of what makes up myself.

Rei: These things are connected through your consciousness.

Shinji: So what I think is me, is me. What I recognise as self, is myself. I'm no more and no less than the sum of my self awareness. But I don't understand myself. Where am I? What am I? What am I?


Then a bit later on in the episode:


Hikari: And your perspective within your world is constantly changing.

Kaji: It changes with the passage of time.

Fuyutsuki: You can change yourself as well.

Ikari: Because the thing that forms your shape is your mind and it's interaction with the world that surrounds you.


I think it is important to note that not only does the mind/soul shape your form, but it also goes the other way. When Rei returns to Lilith, Lilith takes on Rei's shape, or to be more precise, Lilith takes on Yui's shape. That's an instance of both a soul shaping a body (Lilith's featureless body being reformed by the return of her soul) and a body shaping a soul (Rei/Lilith's soul was influenced by it's time in a body shaped as Yui's, influenced to the extent that Yui's body shape became the dominant self-image for Rei/Lilith).

I definitely think there is a connection between the mind/soul and the body, however I think that the actual source for the body (say from within a sea of LCL) is irrelevant. If you an I were standing together in a bath (stick with me here ^_^) and we both turned into LCL, then I don't think it matters if I was reconstructed using some of the LCL that formally came from you or vice-versa.

And one further arguement for the Body can never be separated from the mind/soul is that Humans could never have Bodies if there isn't LCL.

Human bodies would never be formed without LCL so LCL is our bodies without an AT-field...

Yes I agree with that, however if all the LCL gets mixed together (like in the sea of LCL in EOE) then our body is scattered, the individual parts all over the place. Any LCL is good enough in my opinion, and becuase of that I don't see the body as particularly special, in that the main focal point is the mind/soul and the body can be constructed from any LCL/primordial soup that happens to be lying around.

LCL = Body with no AT-Field

Or just LCL, like in terminal dogma. I think LCL can exist without it needing to have once been human bodies, it can just be primordial soup, with the potential for life, but without a soul it is nothing.

If Eva-01 is destroyed so would be Yui......

I agree, but that's a little different. If you "destroy" someone, or kill them, then that introduces a whole lot of other issues about what happens to the mind/soul that we don't need to worry about when we just consider the effects of an Anti-AT Field.

After Complementation... If Eva-01 was destroyed then all humanity that did not chose to remain on earth would be destroyed with it...

I don't think so. I think those souls would still be just orbiting Earth. They bodies collected in the sea of LCL, they can come back if they have the will to do so. (I haven't really thought about timing issues, ie how long do they have to come back, if there is a limit at all).

The reason I say that once the body is destroyed then the mind/soul is destroyed as well is from the Evangelion standpoint that there is no afterlife...

Indeed, we are given no indication in the series that there is an afterlife.

In Eva there is no afterlife... That is why Human Instrumentality was even conceived... This isn't religious... Humans cease to be after their bodies decay... Their souls/minds die... That is why Misato and those who recently died before Instrumentality were included in the complementation...

That is the way I think it works in the Eva universe too.

In the end the Human instrumentality project preserved the human souls/minds in a new body... The body of Eva-01...

I don't agree with this though. The actual project resulted in the gathering of all the souls in the Black Moon, in Lilith's egg. However once Shinji rejected complementation the Egg exploded and all of the souls were scattered. I think that those that didn't choose to return to their physical form remain scattered around the globe. Eva-01 itself contains Yui's soul, and it is just her soul within Eva-01 that is eternal proof of humankind's existence.


Yui: Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it.

(EVA-01 and the Lance of Longinus float in space)

Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives. It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

Fuyutsuki: It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...


I think as Eva-01 floated away, only Yui was within it, she alone exists as eternal proof. They only talk about a singular soul in that passage.

ReichuRachiel:

My own interpretation is that soul and mind are connected, but separate ideas, if you will... The soul is the most basic unit, and the "mind" is all the extra baggage that gets added onto it as a soul experiences life via a body.

I like that description. It's pretty close to my view of the mind and soul in Eva. The soul is fundamental; the mind is formed through experience and includes memories.

Kyrakasa

Warning... I'm tired of being eloquent... I'm going to just yell... and see if it works... I'll let MDWigs come and explain his ideas if it doesn't....

Actually I've got a slightly different view, but I'll try to clarify some things.

"NINE Kawarou Souls in the MP EVAS...."

Nine souls in the MP Evas, not in the Dummy Plugs. The Dummy Plugs have no souls, but the Evas do. If you take up the idea that Rei-001's soul is in Eva-00, and that they found a way to "imprint" souls into Evas, then it makes sense (at least in my mind) that SEELE would forgo the trouble of getting proper pilots and resident souls and instead just imprint a version of Kaworu's soul into each of the MP evas and then use the Kaworu dummy plug to control them.

Though it's a case of circular logic here, becuase I used the idea of a duplicate Rei soul in Eva-00 as a basis to speculate on the souls of the MP Evas, whereas Kyrakasa is trying to use the souls of the MP Evas (whose identiy I don't think is firmly established) to support the idea for duplicate souls.

Without an AT-field and soul a clone would not have human form...

Notice the Tub of Rei's... Each has it's own at-field...

I don't agree with this actually. I think they are all being held together becuase they are in a giant tank of LCL. When they are destroyed Ritsuko presses a button that releases "Destrudo" (according to her controller) into the tank. Then the Rei's simply fall apart. I don't think each has a soul or AT Field, rather that their bodies are held together by virtue of the environment they are in.

So as you can see Rei 1,2,3... All are different.... So are the other rei's...

I think those Rei's are different becuase of the different experiences they had. From the EoE Theatrical Program, "Although the personalities of these three Rei differ from one another, this is due to environmental factors. Their soul is one and the same, and it appears to have been that of Lilith. "

They may share the same memories because of the way they are connected.... And that's the same way why Rei shares Yui's memories...

Can you expand a little more please on Rei sharing Yui's memories? Are you referring to "Well, that's good for you." line Rei shares with Yui from episode 16?

Anyway I'm tired so I think I shall leave it there. It's good to be back ^_^

[ReichuRachiel]

Originally posted by MDWigs
The mother/child relationship is the foundation of the Eva/pilot connection in my opinion. I've heard many other ideas, and I'm more than happy to discuss this issue in more depth, but from the canon facts given I think this is the most solid theory.

The Eva/pilot connection is one that I haven't pondered a great deal. Actually, I'm blatantly ignorant on next to -all- of the ideas floating around! ::lowers head in shame:: Would you-- er, would you mind sharing more of your accumulated wisdom in this area, 'Wigs-sama? I'm sure I'm not the only NGE afficionado around here who would benefit.

I'm willing to concede to intellectual defeat on the Eva-00 deal (though, on an emotional level, she'll always be the baa-san to me... ::sighs happily::), though I do have a few questions, assuming the Rei-01 connection is so.

(1) What would motivate Gendou to use Rei in an Eva Contact Experiment? This would seem to be, evidently, the LAST thing you would want to do to a loved one, especially considering that Gendou "lost" his beloved Yui via Contact, and Rei serves to only partially fill that gap in his life. And, despite Rei's "replaceable" nature, Gendou has shown that he can care significantly for the "current one", at least if Rei-02 is any indication. So, again: Why would Gendou use Rei for Contact?

(2) Why would GEHIRN wait 6+ years to make one of the Evangelion prototypes functional (that is, give it a soul)?

(3) What, precisely, WOULD trigger Zerogouki's two bousou incidents? Why did they happen? And why would Zerogouki go after Ritsuko (which you believe to be the case), but then turn about before "completing the job" and attempt to break through the wall of the experiment chamber? (Why, exactly, WOULD Rei-01 have a grudge against Ritsuko?)

In spite of the conspicuous lack of evidence already discussed, I've been able to "justify" Naoko's presence in there ... for my own sick little purposes, anyway. Everyone's sick of the issue by now, but I might as well share this scheme of mine and be done with it:

The creation of a handful of "successful" prototype Evas (that is, ones that didn't end up in the graveyard) essentially proved that GEHIRN had the technology to create the body of an Evangelion. However, they were too "primitive" to do anything further with (such as render "functional"), and thus they were preserved for research purposes but otherwise abandoned.

Later, in 2010, Akagi Naoko's suicide provided an "opportunity", if you will, to have at least one backup Evangelion unit at GEHIRN -- undesirable as she would be as an Eva "soul donor". As she was but a corpse, no Contact Experiment was possible between her and Zerogouki, but it turned out to not be necessary -- Naoko no longer had an ego border (which Contact ordinarily served to "break down"), and so her soul and mind merely passed onto the Eva. However, while this unconventional method resulted in a functional Eva unit, Zerogouki was rather problematic in more than one way, and the use of a dead donor was never repeated.

Rather silly and unbelievable, I know, but I thought I might as well share that...

Naoko (upon her death) also had no motivations for attacking Ritsuko.

I believe I touched upon this in one of my posts earlier in this thread... Upon her death, she evidently wouldn't. (We don't really know that much about the relationship between Naoko and Ritsuko, though. It was my impression, anyway, that there had been a history of tension between them.] However, Evas are considerably more aware of their environment than people give them credit for (both Yui and Kyoko demonstrate this issue rather well). I don't have any trouble coming up with reasons that Naoko, as an Eva, would want to reduce her daughter to a bloody pulp. >::D

Well that seems to be the majority opinion, even though I've spent years campaigning against it. I think that it might have been one of those pieces of misinformation that were spawned by ADV like the "First Impact killed off the dinosaurs" or "the children are born exactly 9 months after the Second Impact". So many people believe it, yet there is not real evidence within the series to support it.

Odd... It's been my impression lately that the Rei-01 theorum is far more popular. (But impressions don't mean much.) I don't think ADV played any role in my thinking that EVA-00 is Naoko -- it was just the impression that watching the series left me with, far as I can remember.

My main gripe in the past about this has been people saying that Rei is "part Angel", which in my opinion makes no sense at all... (continues

I've ended up using the term "angel" in the broad sense (that is, "shito dai 1~17", humanity if I =really= want to go on a limb, and the Evas, who would be "quasi" angelic if not just plain "angelic"). I actually invented the jargon "Apostle" (obviously, the direct translation of "shito") to refer =specifically= to 3~17 as the "Children of Adam" -- while not canon (like most of the stuff I go batting around >::p), it is a decidedly useful term once the distinction from plain old "angel" is made.


...the children of Lilith, humanity, who received the fruit of wisdom.

On a random note, the "fruit of wisdom" and "fruit of life" bit was always a bit... "abstract" for my tastes. In this doujinshi of mine I have a bad habit of speaking of, I actually make the "fruit of life" a fancy way of saying "S2 kikan", though I could never figure out a similar way to make the term "fruit of wisdom" more substantial. Blah.

Getting back into whether or not Rei is "part Angel" probably leads straight into even MORE confusing territory, but, for the sake of sanity, I'll restrain my comments on that item for the moment... [Don't want this thread to get any more out-of-hand than it already is.]

The issue I have with the idea that LCL comes from the Evas, is that the Core of an Eva is removable (Touji's core had to be prepared... (continues)

Hmm, I've always had issues with the thought of cores being "removable". In my opinion, this really doesn't work. The core is an integral part of an Eva's body and I don't see how I can just be "removed" or what-have-you. [Unless those bastards at NERV have been rendering far greater evils upon my dear Evas than I had previously imagined... ::shivers at the thought::] The comments on "Touji's core" never made sense to me [and, interestingly, Sadamoto even altered that bit of dialogue for his manga adaptation of the same scene -- though I'll admit I don't know at the moment what he actually changed it to ^_^'; I will in a couple of days, though).

Similarly, I can't imagine how the entry plug could actually go INTO the core. I am not familiar with the concept drawing to which you refer [though I have copies of "Concept Design Works" and "Newtype 100%", if you know it's in either of those...], though I would certainly like the see it if possible... The pictures I have seen only imply contact with the core, not actual penetration.

...the Evas Cores (which are all specially prepared to contain human souls) could have been filled with LCL.

It's my opinion that cores were never "prepared" -- they formed on their own upon the Evas' recipience of souls. Not sure if I already said it in this particular thread, but the core really is little more than a container for a soul. Ergo, in the Evas' original soulless state, they did not have cores. This is supported by the mogitai ("Simulation Bodies") of episode 13, which are never really explained, though I've imagined that they are prototype Evangelions that were butchered for experimental purposes (hence their lack of heads, legs, and left arms). They are, obviously, soulless, and, accordingly, they do not have cores -- though, interesting, they do have what almost looks like a "bud" (as feline_ki once described it to me) in their solar plexus, where the core is located on "complete" Evangelions.

I also do not think that LCL is put =into= the core. Rather, I imagine that it's simply something the core produces. It =is= an organ of sorts, after all, so it's not really so farfetched that it might produce "icky stuff" like LCL. (In my opinion, anyway.) Withdrawing LCL from an Eva's core to fill the 'plugs also seems considerably easier than getting it from Lil (the connotations of her room in Terminal Dogma being labeled an "LCL Plant" aside ::p).

The Evas bleed red blood, and we never see LCL come from anywhere but their Cores. This is really a side issue though; my main point was centred on the salvaging of Yui directly from Lilith, which could form the connection.

With the exception of Kyoko-sama, of course. [Her indigo-colored blood is an issue I always wanted to bring up at some point, but not here, of course.] The LCL only comes from Evas' cores because, presumably, that's the only part of their body that produces it -- unlike the Marshmallow Queen, who evidently uses LCL for =blood=.

Sure it's a side issue, but, eh... ::}

...it is also interesting to note that Lilith doesn't appear to have a Core, but Eva-01 does. I've speculated before that when Eva-01 was separated from Lilith, that perhaps it "took" Lilith's Core (containing Yui) with it. (continues)

I think I've heard this idea of yours before. I don't quite agree with it, though. As I've already said, I think the core simply forms automatically after an Eva receives a soul. Ergo, even though Shogouki was still connected to Lilith at the time, she formed a core in her solar plexus where Yui would happily dwell until the end of time. ::> Cores may simply be an innate feature of the "Adam" side of NGE's distorted Human Family Tree (with a few exceptions here and there, since not all of the "Apostles" have physical forms exactly condusive to maintaining a core -- every family has its black sheep ;;>), which is why Lilith does not have one.

Well before we get to ahead of ourselves, do we know she was inside of an Entry Plug? It's been a while since I've reviewed the relevant scenes so I can't remember if anything specifically is mentioned about her being in one.

One of the Mysterious Superimposed Shots in 23' is an image of Yui in a plugsuit. That seems to imply she was taking a dip in an entry plug somewhere, anyway. ;;>

I still can't get away from the image of all those little white legs sticking out of Lilith's torso. That seems to indicate (to me at least) that Rei was created directly out of Lilith (which would consequently explain her paleness). Of course the dots don't all join up there, so I think we need to come up with something else.

I rather like your idea that Rei was made out of Lilith, though there doesn't seem to be any connection between the random legs and Rei's creation -- most notably, on a sense of scale. The little legs are much too large to have anything to do with Rei.

Well, I'll stop there for the moment, only for the sake of everyone's sanity. I'm not intentionally ignoring the remainder of your previous post, 'Wigs-sama; I'm just trying to keep this post from getting any longer! ;;} I have stuff to add on the other issues, but I'll get back to them soon enough.

My oh my... What [i]ever is this thread doing in "Chit-Chat"? ::p

--Reichu

[MDWigs]

Sorry it took me so long to reply. Since getting back my time has just been slipping away (plus these things take so long to write).

ReichuRachiel:

The Eva/pilot connection is one that I haven't pondered a great deal. Actually, I'm blatantly ignorant on next to -all- of the ideas floating around! ::lowers head in shame:: Would you-- er, would you mind sharing more of your accumulated wisdom in this area, 'Wigs-sama? I'm sure I'm not the only NGE afficionado around here who would benefit.

It would be my pleasure.

The first most important thing to consider is that the Eva-pilot connection is built around the A-10 nerve connection.

The following is a quote by Sadamoto from the original manga release, "For emotions such as lovers have for each other or as families have for each other, there is a connection with nerve system in the brain called A10. Evangelion and its pilot can act as one soldier by synchronizing with powerful connection created by this A10 nerve system. Thus this super macha is controlled by power of "love". Maybe simple and absurd...but you can say it's a great, touching story. "

Also the Death and Rebirth Delux Theatrical Program has the following passage in it's Terminology section:


[A^10 Nerve (A^10 Shinkei)]
The Evangelion are controlled mainly by linking with the cranial nerves of the pilot. Of these, the most important is this A^10 nerve. The human brain stem has four rows of neural nuclei running vertically along its center, and the two outside rows of this arrangement are called the A nerves. Counting from the bottom, the tenth nerve in these rows is the A^10 nerve. The A^10 nerve passes from the brain stem through the lower optic thalamus and is distributed to the sincipital portion of the cerebral cortex comprising most of the frontal, parietal and temporal lobes. It is associated with higher order brain functions such as memory, cognizance and the execution of movement, and with emotions such as anxiety, fear, happiness and pleasure. In addition, it is also said to play an important role in affection between parent and child, and between lovers.


There are also a number of times when the A-10 Nerve connection is mentioned in the series, including episode 14 and 19.


Episode 14

Ritsuko: Commence A10 Nerve connections.

Maya: Harmonics Level plus 20.

Shinji: Ah, what the hell? Something's trying to get into my brain.



Episode 19

Ritsuko: Commence A10 nerve connection.

Rei: Ug! It's not working.

Staff: The pulse flow is reversing.


The A10 Nerve connection is critical to the Eva/Pilot connection, and in particular it should be noted that the connection is centred around a very close bond, such as "affection between parent and child".

Now it is an established fact that Shinji's mother is in Eva-01 and Asuka's mother is in Eva-02. It is also an established fact that all of the potential pilots, all the children in Shinji's class, have "lost" their mothers. This is implied in the series and stated absolutely in the EoE Theatrical Program..

The Eva/Pilot connection works via the A10 nerve which is associated with the connection between parent and child. All of the potential pilots have "lost" their mothers. Shinji and Asuka's mothers are in their respective Evas. All of this evidence leads me to conclude that the Eva's work via a mother/child link. The mother is the Evas soul and the child is the pilot.

Does that clear it up? I can expand on particular points if you would like.

(1) What would motivate Gendou to use Rei in an Eva Contact Experiment? This would seem to be, evidently, the LAST thing you would want to do to a loved one, especially considering that Gendou "lost" his beloved Yui via Contact, and Rei serves to only partially fill that gap in his life. And, despite Rei's "replaceable" nature, Gendou has shown that he can care significantly for the "current one", at least if Rei-02 is any indication. So, again: Why would Gendou use Rei for Contact?

Becuase ultimately he is a pragmatist, and he had to continue with Project E. The Dummy Plug wasn't operational at that point, he had no other real pilots at the time, Rei was the first and she allowed him to proceed with his plans. Keep in my the timeline of things here, Rei was only introduced as a pilot, and started testing, in 2014. Gendou needed a working Eva, time was running short and he had to do tests. Asuka was in Germany, Shinji off somewhere else, so he had to depend on Rei. The interesting thing to note here is that despite Rei only being introduced in 2014 as a pilot, she was actually "selected" way back in in 2005. Asuka found out she was going to be a pilot in 2005 (just before her mother killed herself) and she became the "Second", that means that Rei must have already been designated the "First" by that time. I think that Gendou cared about Rei, but I also think his ultimate goal was to get back to Yui, and that was something he would do anything to reach.

(2) Why would GEHIRN wait 6+ years to make one of the Evangelion prototypes functional (that is, give it a soul)?

Maybe it took them that long to figure out how to do it. Eva-01 and Eva-02 both gained their souls through "accidents", whatever the true purpose of those experiments were, their end results were not completely as expected. Perhaps it simply took that long for them to work out how to do it. See above the note I made about Rei's designation. She must have been called the First before Asuka was chosen (and presumably before Kyoto was absorbed). Of course they may have meant for her to pilot Eva-01 originally, which is why they left putting a soul in Eva-00 for so long.

Of course the same question is begged if you think Naoko's soul is in Eva-00. Why did they wait until then to put a soul in it when Eva-01 got a soul in 2004 and Eva-02 got one in 2005?

(3) What, precisely, WOULD trigger Zerogouki's two bousou incidents? Why did they happen? And why would Zerogouki go after Ritsuko (which you believe to be the case), but then turn about before "completing the job" and attempt to break through the wall of the experiment chamber? (Why, exactly, WOULD Rei-01 have a grudge against Ritsuko?)

Both incidents occured subsequent to the A-10 Nerve connection. In Rei's case, primary and secondary contact was successful, but tertiary contact, the contact to the central nervous system and mental contacts up to the "Absolute-L BORDER-LINE", went out of control just after the A-10 connection. In Shinji's case everything was fine up after they commenced the A10 Nerve connections.

Based upon the idea that this connection is related to the mother/child link, I think that the trigger involves the meeting and subsequent rejection by the resident soul of the Eva, of the pilot. Ritsuko puts the first incident down to "mental instability in the pilot", and then had more of an idea about what actually happened. I think her first idea is correct, there was some incompatibility (brought on by something, I'm not sure what) during that experiment that caused the meeting between Rei and the resident soul of the Eva to be upset. Rei was rejected, the entry plug was ejected, and then Eva-00 went berserk. In the second case there is a more clear cut case of incompatibility. Rei can pilot Eva-01 becuase of "similar personal patterns between the Evas". Yui is willing to accept Rei. It doesn't appear as if the resident soul of Eva-00 was willing to accept Shinji.

As to why it didn't "complete the job", well the Eva was berserk. It was out of control. I don't think it was acting in a lucid manner. And as to why Rei-001 would have a grudge against Ritsuko, well the last thing she saw before she died was Naoko's face. Ritsuko and Naoko look very similar. We don't know for sure how memories are transferred between the Rei's, but I think that it is likely that the resident soul of Eva-00 gained knowledge of her death. Keep in my again that I don't think the Eva is acting in a totally rational manner. It's not reasoned, it is just lashing out.

Actually quick question, do we know whether or not that experiment with Rei shown in episode 05 was her first ever full contact with Eva-00? Do they mention previous experiments where they initiated the A-10 nerve link? It's been a while since I last saw that episode, so I can't remember if anything is mentioned. I've just had a thought though that may be related, so I'll leave it here for a bit and get back to you.

The creation of a handful of "successful" prototype Evas (that is, ones that didn't end up in the graveyard) essentially proved that GEHIRN had the technology to create the body of an Evangelion. However, they were too "primitive" to do anything further with (such as render "functional"), and thus they were preserved for research purposes but otherwise abandoned.

Later, in 2010, Akagi Naoko's suicide provided an "opportunity", if you will, to have at least one backup Evangelion unit at GEHIRN -- undesirable as she would be as an Eva "soul donor". As she was but a corpse, no Contact Experiment was possible between her and Zerogouki, but it turned out to not be necessary -- Naoko no longer had an ego border (which Contact ordinarily served to "break down"), and so her soul and mind merely passed onto the Eva. However, while this unconventional method resulted in a functional Eva unit, Zerogouki was rather problematic in more than one way, and the use of a dead donor was never repeated.

I understand that part, but what I don't get is the subsequent connection to Rei, to make her it's designated pilot. They had Evas with souls in 2004 and 2005 (Eva-01 and Eva-02). If this was just taking advantage of an opportunity then why not use Rei while you are there, she was dead too (and this brings in the whole issue of soul imprinting and duplication, but that's another whole kettle of fish entirely).

I believe I touched upon this in one of my posts earlier in this thread... Upon her death, she evidently wouldn't. (We don't really know that much about the relationship between Naoko and Ritsuko, though. It was my impression, anyway, that there had been a history of tension between them.] However, Evas are considerably more aware of their environment than people give them credit for (both Yui and Kyoko demonstrate this issue rather well). I don't have any trouble coming up with reasons that Naoko, as an Eva, would want to reduce her daughter to a bloody pulp. >::D

I don't think Eva-00 is included in office gossip though, and I can't think it likely that Ritsuko and Gendou would get it on in front of it. If that is Naoko's supposed reason for not liking her daughter then I don't know how she would find out.
Also we are shown in EoE that the majority of Naoko's personality still follows the wish of her daughter. Of the Magi, only Naoko as a woman chose to stop the self-destruction, it choose her man over her daughter. Naoko as a scientist and Naoko as a mother both chose to heed the wishes of Ritsuko. I think overall that Naoko loved Ritsuko, and that even if the woman part of her loved Gendou, overall she would side with her daughter (ie not kill her :P)

Odd... It's been my impression lately that the Rei-01 theorum is far more popular. (But impressions don't mean much.) I don't think ADV played any role in my thinking that EVA-00 is Naoko -- it was just the impression that watching the series left me with, far as I can remember.

Maybe it is around here, but that's probably becuase I've been campaigning for so long. ^_^ Three years ago you would almost never hear the Rei-001 idea mentioned, if you read back though the japan.anime.evangelion usenet archives you will see that the Naoko theory was by far the most prevalent back then, and when I first came here most people believed in the Naoko theory too (many still do). I guess she is the one "unknown dead woman" in the series, which makes her the superficial choice for the "unknown soul" of Eva-00. However I think if you look more closely, at the way the Evas work, and the possible candidates, that she really isn't a possibility.

On a random note, the "fruit of wisdom" and "fruit of life" bit was always a bit... "abstract" for my tastes. In this doujinshi of mine I have a bad habit of speaking of, I actually make the "fruit of life" a fancy way of saying "S2 kikan", though I could never figure out a similar way to make the term "fruit of wisdom" more substantial. Blah.

Look to the EoE theatrical program! "Fruit of Life" is indeed the S2 Engine, while the "Fruit of Wisdom" is science and technology.

Hmm, I've always had issues with the thought of cores being "removable". In my opinion, this really doesn't work. The core is an integral part of an Eva's body and I don't see how I can just be "removed" or what-have-you. [Unless those bastards at NERV have been rendering far greater evils upon my dear Evas than I had previously imagined... ::shivers at the thought::]

I agree, for the Eva to be "complete" it must have a core. But Ritsuko does say that the Evas don't have souls originally, and the souls do reside in the Core, I don't think it is a big stretch to think that the Cores were added to the Evas design specifically so that they could house human souls.

The comments on "Touji's core" never made sense to me [and, interestingly, Sadamoto even altered that bit of dialogue for his manga adaptation of the same scene -- though I'll admit I don't know at the moment what he actually changed it to ^_^'; I will in a couple of days, though).

"Yes. There is one child who can be physiologically prepared." is what he changed it to. However the Core as a separate entity is referred to again in the series in episode 24. When Kaworu "controls" Eva-02, they remark on how it should be impossible.


Maya: No data error detected by Magi.

Fuyutsuki: It's surprising that this boy syncronizes with unit two before replacing the core.

Maya: Yet, I can't believe. I mean, it's impossible on the system.


They specifically talk about "replacing" the core. Kaworu is using Eva-02, Asuka's Eva. I presume that it is normal practice to set it up with a new Core designed for Kaworu, otherwise it won't work. Of course he is "special" so it doesn't matter. However the point is that the Core is referred to as something specifically belonging to the pilot, something that should be replaced if another pilot is to use the Eva (Eva-00 and Eva-01 are special cases, so lets not confuse ourselves ^_^).

Similarly, I can't imagine how the entry plug could actually go INTO the core. [Isn't the integrity of the core crucial for the life of an angelic being? How is jamming an entry plug into it any better than stabbing it with a prog knife? ::P] I am not familiar with the concept drawing to which you refer [though I have copies of "Concept Design Works" and "Newtype 100%", if you know it's in either of those...], though I would certainly like the see it if possible... The pictures I have seen only imply contact with the core, not actual penetration.

I'll have another look for that scan. It's probably on one of my "Eva Images" CDs, but they are scattered around the house, so it might take me a while to track it down ^^ Actually there is a thread ages ago here where we talked about the sketch, I can't recall exactly but I think someone may have posted a link to the scan. I'll have a look through the archives and get back to you.

In any case I don't think that the plug jams it's way in or anything, I think the Core allows it in, it slots in so to speak.

It's my opinion that cores were never "prepared" -- they formed on their own upon the Evas' recipience of souls. Not sure if I already said it in this particular thread, but the core really is little more than a container for a soul. Ergo, in the Evas' original soulless state, they did not have cores.

They "formed" on their own? Can you be more specific? It seems to me that if the Evas are "given" souls, then they would also be given the containers that hold them.


This is supported by the mogitai ("Simulation Bodies") of episode 13, which are never really explained, though I've imagined that they are prototype Evangelions that were butchered for experimental purposes (hence their lack of heads, legs, and left arms). They are, obviously, soulless, and, accordingly, they do not have cores -- though, interesting, they do have what almost looks like a "bud" (as feline_ki once described it to me) in their solar plexus, where the core is located on "complete" Evangelions.

I think these are just connected through to the resident Eva's core. It's never explained, but the impression I always got where that they connected the simulation plugs to the Magi and then the Magi passed on that connection to the Eva proper (how on earth that works I have no idea).

I also do not think that LCL is put =into= the core. Rather, I imagine that it's simply something the core produces. It =is= an organ of sorts, after all, so it's not really so farfetched that it might produce "icky stuff" like LCL. (In my opinion, anyway.) Withdrawing LCL from an Eva's core to fill the 'plugs also seems considerably easier than getting it from Lil (the connotations of her room in Terminal Dogma being labeled an "LCL Plant" aside ::p).


I agree it is possible that it could produce LCL, however given that we do have one known direct source (Lilith) and it isn't mentioned anywhere specifically that the Cores do produce their own LCL, I tend to go with Occam's razor here. While it is possible for the Cores to produce LCL, I see no evidence that they actually do, and a similar explanation in my mind is that it all just comes from Lilith.

With the exception of Kyoko-sama, of course. [Her indigo-colored blood is an issue I always wanted to bring up at some point, but not here, of course.] The LCL only comes from Evas' cores because, presumably, that's the only part of their body that produces it -- unlike the Marshmallow Queen, who evidently uses LCL for =blood=.

Or it's the only part that contains it :P

I think I've heard this idea of yours before. I don't quite agree with it, though. As I've already said, I think the core simply forms automatically after an Eva receives a soul. Ergo, even though Shogouki was still connected to Lilith at the time, she formed a core in her solar plexus where Yui would happily dwell until the end of time. ::> Cores may simply be an innate feature of the "Adam" side of NGE's distorted Human Family Tree (with a few exceptions here and there, since not all of the "Apostles" have physical forms exactly condusive to maintaining a core -- every family has its black sheep ;;>), which is why Lilith does not have one.

It's certainly an interesting idea, however the comments I've made previously in this thread lead me to believe something different.

One of the Mysterious Superimposed Shots in 23' is an image of Yui in a plugsuit. That seems to imply she was taking a dip in an entry plug somewhere, anyway. ;;>


Good point. Plus of course if you buy into the theory about why Misato was down in Antartica during the Second Impact, and the nature of her Escape Pod, then the existence of an Entry Plug at that point in time is quite plausible.

I rather like your idea that Rei was made out of Lilith, though there doesn't seem to be any connection between the random legs and Rei's creation -- most notably, on a sense of scale. The little legs are much too large to have anything to do with Rei.

I don't think they are too large. In fact they look like perfect little children's legs to me. Of course this is anime, and more importantly this is Eva, so scale often goes right out the window.

Well, I'll stop there for the moment, only for the sake of everyone's sanity. I'm not intentionally ignoring the remainder of your previous post, 'Wigs-sama; I'm just trying to keep this post from getting any longer! ;;} I have stuff to add on the other issues, but I'll get back to them soon enough.

Well sorry it has taken me oh so long to reply. I just got caught up really, I've got no excuse. I hope you have the energy to come back to this after all this time ^^

[ReichuRachiel]

::groans heavily:: Yo-shi... I must just be a real glutton for punishment, otherwise I wouldn't continue torturing my brain like this. But it's all in good fun.

Originally posted by MDWigs
Sorry it took me so long to reply. Since getting back my time has just been slipping away (plus these things take so long to write).

It's no problem ^_^. I'll admit, I was a little worried that you were never going to tackle some of those nagging questions of mine... though, much as your stab at answering them hurts my head, I'm agog that you did. Not to slander anyone else, but the replies that the folks at the AN Forums gave aren't nearly as satisfactory to me as yours. I guess you have a reputation around the forums for a reason. ;;>

Hmm, now I'm feeling rather silly for overlooking that "A-10" entry from the theatrical program for so long... I suppose some things in NGE I've conveniently ignored all this time to keep all of the detail in the anime from getting =too= overwhelming. Well, excuses excuses. I'm glad I've finally been educated on the matter, though.

On the Eva-pilot connection... ::tries to ignore the little voice in her head that keeps on telling her how silly the idea of Evas needing pilots in the first place seems -- that's a whole 'nother matter of debate/speculation altogether:: Alright, trying to figure out the technicalities of the A-10 nerve connection is making my brain hemorrhage -- I don't know the first thing about neurology, tsk -- though at least one nagging question pops into my head regarding the whole matter...

The pilot connects to the Eva's brain, which, in its own right, has absolutely nothing to do with his or her mother. The Eva had a brain before she had a soul, and there is no direct connection between them that I can think of. How does the identity of the Eva's soul determine whether or not one brain can link to another? The singular virtue of the Eva's soul at-one-point-belonging-to-the-pilot's-genetic-mother is the only thing that lets this A-10 nerve connection work? I'm not sure if the point I'm trying to get at is especially clear, but the more I try to reason this out the more my nerves complain, so I'd better move on.

Also, if, as you cited, the Eva-pilot bond is centered around the"affection between parent and child", where in the world does a Zerogouki endowed with the soul of a little girl [or, alternatively, the soul of a superbeing credited as being the progenitor of humanity ::p] fit in? Rei-01 hadn't even entered puberty yet [from what I can tell, anyway ;;>], so she obviously couldn't have been =anyone's= mother. She has the virtue of being genetically identical to Rei-02 and sharing half or so of her genes with Shinji, but that doesn't give her soul the advantage of having any 'parental affection' going on with Zerogouki's two potential pilots. Or does the fact that her soul is technically Lilith's -- the "mother" of humanity! -- automatically give Rei-01's soul a motherly connection to Zerogouki's pilots? That would mean, however, that =anyone= could pilot EVA-00, and this evidently isn't the case.

Sorry if I muddled over something you said and I'm making a big confusion out of a matter that's already been satisfactorily explained, but =perhaps= I'm getting at an item worth some scrutiny? Maybe?

Also, the implication that pilots can only synchronize to an Eva's brain if the soul of their birth mother is in the Eva's core [the Zerogouki mess aside] really creates a turmoil in my head. There are, obviously, far more kiddles in Shinji's class that there are Evas, yet they are all potential pilots. So does that mean that the souls of all of their dead mothers have the potential to become the resident souls of Evas? I really don't understand how this would work, myself, and trying to work my way around the technicalities here gives me a mental sensation not unlike having an egg beater jammed into my grey matter.

We know that Shinji and Asuka have the privilege of pilotting their own mothers [so to speak ;;p], but, compared to all of the other potential pilots, don't they seem a little like an exception rather than the rule? Both of their mothers happened to be working in close conjunction with the creation of their respective Evangelions and both Yui and Kyoko happened to have children to met the requirements for pilotting an Eva. [Whatever on Earth THOSE are... The "Motherless Children" bit doesn't explain the fact that all of the potential pilots are approximately the same age -- and, of course, Rei being technically 10 years old or something and at least =appearing= the same age as the others makes the matter even MORE complicated...] And both Yui and Kyoko managed to lose their souls to their respective Evas via the Contact Experiment -- the only known way of putting a soul into an Eva, far as I know -- before they left their children "motherless". Also, it's worth noting that both Asuka and Shinji were only named potential pilots after their mothers' souls were effectively secured inside the Evas.

Now, I might be muddling over something here, but the other potential pilots do NOT have the same stuff going for them that Asuka and Shinji did, and their mothers all died before they could participate in any Contact Experiments. Yet they're still "potential pilots". Does this mean that, despite everything that's been said that might create some unpleasant conflicts/inconsistencies [as if NGE wasn't already swarmin' with them ;;p], there is not a stringent requirement that the pilots be related to whatever body the Eva's soul was originally in? Could the fact that the Eva's soul came from a mother and the pilot has lost his or her mother be "good enough" to form the Eva/pilot bond? [My brain tells me that matters are considerably less complicated if this is the case, but that's just my wishful thinking.]

Moving along, but still lingering in the same muddled area... Despite the fact that the series seems to make the identity of EVA-00's soul clear enough, the whole matter of Rei-01's soul continues to glare at me as being fundamentally dysfunctional. I'm still exceptionally fuzzy on the whole soul "copying/imprinting" front, so the whole thought of Lilith's soul being in two places at once is still something I have a problem with. [So if you're up for reiterating your theories on the matter for one person's benefit, I definitely wouldn't mind.] Plus it is completely beyond me how Rei-01 was ever deemed eligible as a test subject for an Evangelion Contact Experiment to begin with, being as she isn't a mother in her own right. It was my impression that motherhood was a prerequisite of sorts for judging who gets to have their soul sacrificed into an Eva, but, if a little prepubescent girl managed to fit the bill, there's evidently something I missed.

The Dummy Plug wasn't operational at that point, he had no other real pilots at the time, Rei was the first and she allowed him to proceed with his plans. Keep in my the timeline of things here, Rei was only introduced as a pilot, and started testing, in 2014. Gendou needed a working Eva, time was running short and he had to do tests. <snip> I think that Gendou cared about Rei, but I also think his ultimate goal was to get back to Yui, and that was something he would do anything to reach.


&

Of course they may have meant for her to pilot Eva-01 originally, which is why they left putting a soul in Eva-00 for so long.

I follow what you said about Rei being selected as a pilot in 2005 before Asuka... And the idea that Rei was originally intended to be Shogouki's pilot seems very credible, in my opinion. So what on Earth went wrong with this scheme that made everyone in GEHIRN say, "Oh, guess it's time to put a soul into one of the prototypes!" And how exactly WOULD sacrificing the soul of his adopted "daughter" into a prototype Evangelion make things go Gendou's way any more than they already were? I'm just trying to make a logical connection between everything, and at the moment I'm fumbling to find the dots, let alone connect them.

Well, I hate to write yet another post that only addresses half (or probably considerably less) of what I'm replying to, but I'm getting rather tired, and I'm sure this post, at its current length, is enough of a monster to reply to. [But, as I said in my previous post, there's nothing stopping us from backtracking at any point.]

If anyone can make any sense out of something as convoluted as "NGE", though, it's 'Wigs-sama! [If you want me to stop calling you that, just let me know... ^_^]

[Sharp kun]

Originally posted by ReichuRachiel
Both of their mothers happened to be working in close conjunction with the creation of their respective Evangelions
As far as I can recall we never get told what the mothers of Toji etc did. They may well have been involved with Project E.

Originally posted by ReichuRachiel
And both Yui and Kyoko managed to lose their souls to their respective Evas via the Contact Experiment -- the only known way of putting a soul into an Eva, far as I know
Ep 17 - Literal Translation
Ritsuko: Yes. There's one child whose core will be ready immediately.
This tells us that cores can be kept seperatly, and changed (also mentioned in Ep 24/24'). If you can get a soul into a core, then put the core into the Eva, you have another way of giving the Eva a soul. Cores would presumably be easier and quicker to make than a full Eva, and if there was a way to put the mothers soul into that, would provide a method of storage.

Originally posted by ReichuRachiel
Now, I might be muddling over something here, but the other potential pilots do NOT have the same stuff going for them that Asuka and Shinji did, and their mothers all died before they could participate in any Contact Experiments.
Depends on whether my idea about the cores would work. If so, you have an easy way to collect their souls and store them without requiring a full Eva.


Originally posted by ReichuRachiel
Plus it is completely beyond me how Rei-01 was ever deemed eligible as a test subject for an Evangelion Contact Experiment to begin with, being as she isn't a mother in her own right. It was my impression that motherhood was a prerequisite of sorts for judging who gets to have their soul sacrificed into an Eva, but, if a little prepubescent girl managed to fit the bill, there's evidently something I missed.
Rei's soul is Lilith's, the mother of humanity.

[ReichuRachiel]

Originally posted by Sharp kun
Rei's soul is Lilith's, the mother of humanity.

Well, yes, I understand this, but the whole issue is still problematic in my opinion. By this logic, anyone should be able to pilot Zerogouki, and evidently this isn't the case. Also, since souls are evidently "copyable" (otherwise Lilith's soul couldn't be in two vessels at the same time), if using Lilith's soul means that anyone can synchronize with said Eva, why didn't they just put a copy of Lilith into every bloody Eva? Pilots wouldn't be much of an issue, in that case.

Originally posted by MDWigs
Maybe it took them that long to figure out how to do it. Eva-01 and Eva-02 both gained their souls through "accidents", whatever the true purpose of those experiments were, their end results were not completely as expected. Perhaps it simply took that long for them to work out how to do it.

That's something that always did boggle me... What exactly was the original motivation for putting entry plugs into Evas and doing this so-called "Contact Experiment"? That aside, it was always my impression that what happened to Yui was not, strictly speaking, an "accident" -- she somehow knew what was going to happen to her and it was something that she wanted to go through with. But, well, that's just me reading into her episode 21' dialogue with Fuyutsuki and the fact that there was evidently something going on that she couldn't tell Gendou about...

Kyoko, I would imagine, was a different story. She didn't achieve that infamous "400% Synch Rate" that Yui did -- I guess Kyoko was a little less, erm, avid about going into Nigouki than Yui was with Sho? Granted, though, we're told next to nothing about Frau Zeppelin, so it's even harder to speculate about her than it is with Yui.

One question, though, that probably seems very random: What do we know about Asuka's father? In addition to the meager glimpse of him given in the anime, is anything said about him in various NGE-related printed materials? Do we know if he worked for GEHIRN in Germany or not? Do we even know what his name is? About the only "interesting" thing I've been able to determine about him is that he was having an extramarital affair with the woman who would eventually become Asuka's stepmother. Heh.

Both incidents occured subsequent to the A-10 Nerve connection... Based upon the idea that this connection is related to the mother/child link, I think that the trigger involves the meeting and subsequent rejection by the resident soul of the Eva, of the pilot. Ritsuko puts the first incident down to "mental instability in the pilot", and then had more of an idea about what actually happened. I think her first idea is correct, there was some incompatibility (brought on by something, I'm not sure what) during that experiment that caused the meeting between Rei and the resident soul of the Eva to be upset.

Writing it off as "mental instability in the pilot" always seemed like a cheap substitute for a real explanation to me. The disruption was coming from the Eva, not Rei, wasn't it? In my opinion, no real substantial explanation is given for the incompatibility -- you even say, "brought on by something, I'm not sure what". >>} What on Earth would cause the soul of one Rei to reject the other and then, later on, to reject Shinji?

Sure, the Naoko idea doesn't have much going for it at this point, but it did have the advantage that EVA-00's rejection of both Rei and Shinji at different points in time seemed to make perfect sense. ^_^ Plus Zerogouki's "temper tantrums" seem to me like the exact sort of thing Naoko would do if she were inside an Eva, given her predilection for fits of blind rage. ;;D If I imagine Naoko being inside there, the [i]bousou incidents seem considerably more "motivated" than if Rei-01 were behind them... The angsty clutching-at-her-head, the lashing-out at various NERV employees, the attempt to break through the wall of the experiment chamber (the Eva's innate desire for liberation??)... And then, of course, the mindless head-bashing in episode 14, (which tends to give me a good laugh whenever I see it). Though, on a deeper level, EVA-00's "irrational" behavior indicates, to my mind, a high degree of suffering and anger, one that seemed so much more appropriate if Naoko were in there.

But, ::sigh::, Naoko isn't really in there and all I can do now is (1) argue about why I think the alternative makes just as little sense and (2) continue to entertain myself with the thought of Naoko being EVA-00 in my twisted little fantasies.

We don't know for sure how memories are transferred between the Rei's, but I think that it is likely that the resident soul of Eva-00 gained knowledge of her death.

Rei-01-in-Eva-00 would be able to find out about her death, but Naoko-in-Eva-00 wouldn't be able to find out that Ritsuko was sleeping with Gendou? ::P

Actually quick question, do we know whether or not that experiment with Rei shown in episode 05 was her first ever full contact with Eva-00? Do they mention previous experiments where they initiated the A-10 nerve link? It's been a while since I last saw that episode, so I can't remember if anything is mentioned. I've just had a thought though that may be related, so I'll leave it here for a bit and get back to you.

I'm fuzzy on this myself, but wasn't it implied that Rei had been "working on" her synch rates with EVA-00 for a while? Some episode-browsing is probably in order to be more certain...

I understand that part, but what I don't get is the subsequent connection to Rei, to make her it's designated pilot.

Oh, I don't know... There really is no connection. Nothing Rei can't handle, though, right? ^_^ So what if her Eva hates her? "I don't mind. It comes with the job." Well... something like that.

They had Evas with souls in 2004 and 2005 (Eva-01 and Eva-02). If this was just taking advantage of an opportunity then why not use Rei while you are there, she was dead too...

Mostly because Rei doesn't fit in with my happy little scheme of women who had experienced motherhood being the only valid candidates for placement into an Eva. The whole "Lilith" bit aside.

I don't think Eva-00 is included in office gossip though, and I can't think it likely that Ritsuko and Gendou would get it on in front of it. If that is Naoko's supposed reason for not liking her daughter then I don't know how she would find out.

Well, who knows what sorts of strange things were going on in NERV from 2010~2014... They could have been having parties every day and participating in drunken orgies on the umbilical bridges. Gendou and Ritsuko have a rather odd relationship -- I wouldn't put it past them. :evil: Erm, ::cough::, anyway, who knows how EVA-00 would find out about Ritsuko and Gendou... I tend to think that any Eva in her right mind would have a grudge against Ritsuko no matter what -- she is in charge of the Eva-related technology, most of which is a far cry from "humane".

However I think if you look more closely, at the way the Evas work, and the possible candidates, that she really isn't a possibility.

Yeah, but... It's so much more fun if Naoko's in there! ^_^

Oh, and now for the oh-so-fun matter of Eva cores... I'll address that in a bit, since it's time for me to end this post.

[Sharp kun]

Originally posted by ReichuRachiel
Well, yes, I understand this, but the whole issue is still problematic in my opinion. By this logic, anyone should be able to pilot Zerogouki, and evidently this isn't the case. Also, since souls are evidently "copyable" (otherwise Lilith's soul couldn't be in two vessels at the same time), if using Lilith's soul means that anyone can synchronize with said Eva, why didn't they just put a copy of Lilith into every bloody Eva? Pilots wouldn't be much of an issue, in that case.

Just before I go out:


Despite Lilith's status, something else is still needed. Rei gets around this because of her soul, and Shinji does because of the Rei - Lilith - Yui connection. However, for normal pilots, with no such link, synching is too hard.


Not easy to prove, but a possibility that popped into my head earlier.

[MDWigs]

ReichuRachiel:

It's no problem ^_^. I'll admit, I was a little worried that you were never going to tackle some of those nagging questions of mine... though, much as your stab at answering them hurts my head, I'm agog that you did. Not to slander anyone else, but the replies that the folks at the AN Forums gave aren't nearly as satisfactory to me as yours. I guess you have a reputation around the forums for a reason. ;;>

Well thank you. I really did want to give you a proper response, so that, along with me just being incredibly slack, was why it took me so long to reply.

Hmm, now I'm feeling rather silly for overlooking that "A-10" entry from the theatrical program for so long... I suppose some things in NGE I've conveniently ignored all this time to keep all of the detail in the anime from getting =too= overwhelming. Well, excuses excuses. I'm glad I've finally been educated on the matter, though.

I overlooked it initially as well. There are so many details that it is impossible to pay attention to all of them straight away.

The pilot connects to the Eva's brain, which, in its own right, has absolutely nothing to do with his or her mother. The Eva had a brain before she had a soul, and there is no direct connection between them that I can think of. How does the identity of the Eva's soul determine whether or not one brain can link to another? The singular virtue of the Eva's soul at-one-point-belonging-to-the-pilot's-genetic-mother is the only thing that lets this A-10 nerve connection work? I'm not sure if the point I'm trying to get at is especially clear, but the more I try to reason this out the more my nerves complain, so I'd better move on.

I think I understand what you are getting at, but I don't think that in the grand scheme of things it actually matters. If you take the physical form to simply be a metaphor for different aspects of the mind/soul then ultimately the different parts of the body/brain are just conduits, representations. The A-10 nerve is a part of the brain, a part that is predominately associated with higher order brain functions, in particular it plays an important role in affection between parent and child. The brain itself is redundant though, it doesn't dictate anything to the mind, and thus really all the A-10 nerve represents in the manifestation of that aspect of the mind. The A-10 nerve is merely the pathway through which the concept of a mother/child link is realised. The actual physical A-10 nerve itself is unimportant; it is the emotional connection the A-10 nerve represents to the mind/soul the body belongs to.

So it isn't actually the brains that link one being to another (though the A-10 nerve is a part of the brain), it is the minds/souls that do the actual linking. The A-10 nerve is just the physical metaphor the mind uses to represent that link. I hope I've explained that well enough. It's a tricky idea to get your head around.

Also, if, as you cited, the Eva-pilot bond is centered around the"affection between parent and child", where in the world does a Zerogouki endowed with the soul of a little girl [or, alternatively, the soul of a superbeing credited as being the progenitor of humanity ::p] fit in? Rei-01 hadn't even entered puberty yet [from what I can tell, anyway ;;>], so she obviously couldn't have been =anyone's= mother. She has the virtue of being genetically identical to Rei-02 and sharing half or so of her genes with Shinji, but that doesn't give her soul the advantage of having any 'parental affection' going on with Zerogouki's two potential pilots. Or does the fact that her soul is technically Lilith's -- the "mother" of humanity! -- automatically give Rei-01's soul a motherly connection to Zerogouki's pilots? That would mean, however, that =anyone= could pilot EVA-00, and this evidently isn't the case.

No, I don't think that anyone can pilot Eva-00. As Kaji says in a report from the photobook, 2015 - The Last Year of Ryoji Kaji, "The operators exchangeable only between EVA-00 and EVA-01". I don't think it is specifically Rei's soul being the "mother of all humanity" that allows the connection.

The key here is to look to Eva-01, not to Eva-00. Take Eva-00 out of the picture entirely for a second and just consider Rei and Yui. Rei can pilot Eva-01. Rei can form a connection with Yui, synchronise and activation the Evangelion. That connection is established in episode 14 (Yui later rejects Rei, but that's a different story). If you work off the premise that the Evas operate via a mother/child connection then just as Shinji acts as a child to Yui's mother, Rei also must act as a child to Yui's mother.

I think it helps to understand that the Rei-001 in Eva-00 theory came after the "mother/child" connection theory. Once you establish the mother/child theory, the next step then is to look at all the possible candidates for Eva-00 and see which one comes closest. It's not a case of saying "Ok Rei-001 is in Eva-00, now I need a way to explain it".

So there is an established connection between Yui and Rei-001, a connection that allows them to form a link and become a valid Eva/Pilot pair.

After that everything falls into place. All other things aside, it really is just a process of elimination at this point. Rei, out of all the possible candidates has an established connection with Yui (and thus indirectly with Shinji) when it comes to piloting an Eva.

So you come to the question, who is in Eva-00 that allows both Rei and Shinji and no other to pilot it. You need someone similar to Yui. Out of everyone, the most similar and the only one with an established connection to Yui when it comes to Eva piloting, is Rei.

Here we need to step back to our earlier discussion about the physical form and the mind/soul and the affect they have on one another. Recall that Lilith's soul inhabited what was effectively Yui's form to become Rei. However when Rei returned to Lilith, Lilith took on Rei's form, moreso she took on Yui's form. The soul/mind shapes the body, but the time a soul spends in a particular body also obviously shapes that soul. One has the affect on the other. Yui's mind/personality has been shaped by her time in Eva-01, while Lilith's mind/personality (if it existed as such previously) has been shaped by its time in Yui's body.

Sorry if I muddled over something you said and I'm making a big confusion out of a matter that's already been satisfactorily explained, but =perhaps= I'm getting at an item worth some scrutiny? Maybe?

It's my fault. I sort of glossed over this bit. It gets kinda confusing becuase I put forward the explanations out of order. It's already established that Rei can participate in a joining with Yui, the rest follows on from there.

Also, the implication that pilots can only synchronize to an Eva's brain if the soul of their birth mother is in the Eva's core [the Zerogouki mess aside] really creates a turmoil in my head. There are, obviously, far more kiddles in Shinji's class that there are Evas, yet they are all potential pilots. So does that mean that the souls of all of their dead mothers have the potential to become the resident souls of Evas? I really don't understand how this would work, myself, and trying to work my way around the technicalities here gives me a mental sensation not unlike having an egg beater jammed into my grey matter.

Heh I know the feeling. The technicalities are rather murky, so I am hesitant about putting anything forward. What we know is that all of the children in Shinji's class have "lost" their mothers. What's more that is precisely why they are in Shinji's class, that is what all the potential pilots have in common. We also know that Shinji's mother is in his Eva, and Asuka's in hers. What happened to the other mothers is never explained, they are "gone" though, and this fact allows their children to be potential pilots.

We know that Shinji and Asuka have the privilege of pilotting their own mothers [so to speak ;;p], but, compared to all of the other potential pilots, don't they seem a little like an exception rather than the rule? Both of their mothers happened to be working in close conjunction with the creation of their respective Evangelions and both Yui and Kyoko happened to have children to met the requirements for pilotting an Eva.

We are confined by the small number of cases we can consider. Eva-03 is the only example we see of a pilot being selected out of the class of "potential pilots". They specifically select him from that class though, the class of children who have all "lost" their mothers. If we had more Children then it would be easier to see a pattern. We only have five though, Rei and Kaworu are special cases, Shinji and Asuka both had mothers directly working on the Evas that we know of, and Touji is selected from the pool of potential pilots. The only real constant you can derive from that is the they are all motherless children, and two out of the five (or even two out of the four selected by the Marduk institute (ie NERV as opposed to SEELE) we know have their mother's souls in their Evas.

[Whatever on Earth THOSE are... The "Motherless Children" bit doesn't explain the fact that all of the potential pilots are approximately the same age -- and, of course, Rei being technically 10 years old or something and at least =appearing= the same age as the others makes the matter even MORE complicated...]

Well Rei's a special case in my opinion, I consider her an exception to pretty much all the rules.

As for them needing to be fourteen. I don't think that's really important at all. Asuka is 13 at the start of the series, Kaoru is 15 when he arrives, and in the original scenario for episode four Shinji was supposed to have his fourteenth birthday. Fourteen is just a turning point, I don't think the specific age itself is important. Apparently in one of the early scenarios (I haven't read it personally, hence the "apparently") the reason for making the pilots 14 had to do with their "psychological state". This is backed up somewhat by Anno's comments from the Newtype that came out a couple of months after Eva finished airing in Japan.

"The reason for which the principal character is fourteen years old is that he is not any more child, but not yet adult. ... By considering "fourteen years" as the age where an independence of mind appears, I found convenient to include that with my work." - Hideaki Anno - 6/96 Newtype

This whole issue is complicated enough as it is. I would like to think that this aspect at least doesn't play a significant part other than the fact that they all just need to be "Children".

And both Yui and Kyoko managed to lose their souls to their respective Evas via the Contact Experiment -- the only known way of putting a soul into an Eva, far as I know -- before they left their children "motherless". Also, it's worth noting that both Asuka and Shinji were only named potential pilots after their mothers' souls were effectively secured inside the Evas.

One possibility is that Gendou and NERV are a whole lot more sinister than they appear. I don't really go for this theory, but it is possible that NERV holds all the mothers of the children hostage (without the children or anyone else knowing of course) and when it comes time for them to, "prepare a Core", for a potential pilot to become a proper pilot, they hook her up to a soulless Eva (empty Core) and let her be absorbed. Of course this can't be conductive to having friendly Evas, but then the Evas are "restrained" anyway, and the pilots really just NERV's way of controlling them (children are far easier to manipulate). It's a possibility that must be considered though. Becuase if the Contact Experiment is the only way for Souls to inhabit Evas then this is what NERV would have to do (that or look for volunteers and I doubt they would find many). Of course if they were really sadistic they would just have all the mothers absorbed into Cores as soon as their children were selected to become "potential pilots". That's a lot of redundant Cores sitting around though.

Of course if you want to think of NERV as being "nicer" than this, the mothers could just have had legitimate accidents and their souls were somehow salvaged (or in their dying moments contact was made) to put them into Cores.

Again as I said originally, the technicalities are rather murky. There is no definite answer here, and no one theory that I really feel comfortable with. So I just stick with what we know. Shinji's class contains potential pilots, and their are potential pilots becuase they have all "lost" their mothers.

Now, I might be muddling over something here, but the other potential pilots do NOT have the same stuff going for them that Asuka and Shinji did, and their mothers all died before they could participate in any Contact Experiments.

Well we don't know that. For starters we don't know they all died, they are simple "lost", and secondly we don't know if they were "lost" in a Contact Experiment or not. We are never filled in on those details.

Yet they're still "potential pilots". Does this mean that, despite everything that's been said that might create some unpleasant conflicts/inconsistencies [as if NGE wasn't already swarmin' with them ;;p], there is not a stringent requirement that the pilots be related to whatever body the Eva's soul was originally in?

I think they have to be directly (or at least closely) related. Asuka couldn't participate in the compatibility experiments with Evas 00 and 01 and when Kaoru came along everyone was surprised that he could do the "impossible" and operate Eva-02 without them reconfiguring the Core. I do think that there is a special relationship between the Evas soul and it's pilot. I also this relationship is dictated predominately by the resident soul itself. Yui rejected both the Dummy Plug and Rei and would only accept Shinji at one point. I think likewise most mothers would only accept their children.

Could the fact that the Eva's soul came from a mother and the pilot has lost his or her mother be "good enough" to form the Eva/pilot bond? [My brain tells me that matters are considerably less complicated if this is the case, but that's just my wishful thinking.]

Apart from everything we have already discussed, one of the biggest problems I have with this idea is that if it were true, then why aren't all the "potential pilots" in training, why aren't they practicing syncing with the Evas, and competing to see which has the highest synch ratio and who is the best pilot. If any child could get into any Eva as long as they have lost their mother then wouldn't it make sense to have their all trained, so they if someone's synch ration falls low for whatever reason (eg Asuka near the end) then someone else can qickly and easily just step in to fill her shoes. If someone is hurt piloting the Eva, then a substitute can be brought in until they are recovered.

I think the idea that the Eva and the Pilot have a special bond is fundamental to Eva mechanics and to the storyline as a whole.

Moving along, but still lingering in the same muddled area... Despite the fact that the series seems to make the identity of EVA-00's soul clear enough, the whole matter of Rei-01's soul continues to glare at me as being fundamentally dysfunctional. I'm still exceptionally fuzzy on the whole soul "copying/imprinting" front, so the whole thought of Lilith's soul being in two places at once is still something I have a problem with. [So if you're up for reiterating your theories on the matter for one person's benefit, I definitely wouldn't mind.]

Ask me again sometime ok? I've never been completely happy with it, but out of all the explanations I've heard or thought of I think it works best. I've been a little snowed under recently, but I will go through it in depth when I have a little more time. Remind me though or I'll forget.

Plus it is completely beyond me how Rei-01 was ever deemed eligible as a test subject for an Evangelion Contact Experiment to begin with, being as she isn't a mother in her own right. It was my impression that motherhood was a prerequisite of sorts for judging who gets to have their soul sacrificed into an Eva, but, if a little prepubescent girl managed to fit the bill, there's evidently something I missed.

I don't think motherhood itself is, rather the ability to form a close motherly connection with a "child". Shinji states a number of times that Rei reminds him of a mother...

follow what you said about Rei being selected as a pilot in 2005 before Asuka... And the idea that Rei was originally intended to be Shogouki's pilot seems very credible, in my opinion. So what on Earth went wrong with this scheme that made everyone in GEHIRN say, "Oh, guess it's time to put a soul into one of the prototypes!" And how exactly WOULD sacrificing the soul of his adopted "daughter" into a prototype Evangelion make things go Gendou's way any more than they already were? I'm just trying to make a logical connection between everything, and at the moment I'm fumbling to find the dots, let alone connect them.

Well I don't think it was "sacrificing" as such. Particularly if you subscribe to the idea that souls can be "captured" after death (which is the only way a Naoko theory could even begin to work btw). Rei-001 was killed, and this was the first time a Rei had been killed, so we don't know what happened with the soul transfer, perhaps they hadn't perfected the process yet (that's if they have any control over it at all). *Something* happened and the next thing we know, Rei appears 4 years later, but has aged almost 10 years, and there is a soul in Eva-00. We don't know what exactly happened during that time, how Rei was accelerated, how Rei-002 got Lilith's soul from Rei-001, etc... etc... etc... There are a lot of blank spots here, so for the most part I've tried to fill in the gaps the best I can with what I think makes the most sense.

This also links into the idea discussion above about the potential pilots, perhaps their mothers died in accidents (or worse) and NERV took the opportunity to "capture" their souls and invest them into Cores. If that's the case, then maybe they were just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Of course I've had some thoughts in the past about Rei-001 participating in a contact experiment before she was killed, which helps to explain her seeming mental instability in the end, but I don't really like that idea anymore.

If anyone can make any sense out of something as convoluted as "NGE", though, it's 'Wigs-sama! [If you want me to stop calling you that, just let me know... ^_^]

Why thank you. Also thanks again for participating in this thread. I haven't thought about these issues in such depth for a long time, it's good to get the ideas flowing again (even though it hurts my brain oh so much ^^). And though I don't know if I warrant such an honorific, I don't mind you calling me that ^_^

That's something that always did boggle me... What exactly was the original motivation for putting entry plugs into Evas and doing this so-called "Contact Experiment"?

Well it was that exact question that led me down the road towards the full "imprint theory". What were they trying to achieve? They didn't want to lose the test subject (I'm not calling them pilots becuase there was nothing to pilot as such at that time) yet they wanted to get a working, moving Evangelion. Could their intentions have been to "imprint" the soul of the test subject, while keeping the test subject safe? If that process were perfected then you could have children pilot Evas inhabited by their mother's souls, while still having the mother's alive and well (of course it seems like they didn't perfect the process, or whatever they were trying to do, becuase a year later Kyoko went insane after her experiment). I will go into the full imprint theory at some point, remind me ^^

That aside, it was always my impression that what happened to Yui was not, strictly speaking, an "accident" -- she somehow knew what was going to happen to her and it was something that she wanted to go through with. But, well, that's just me reading into her episode 21' dialogue with Fuyutsuki and the fact that there was evidently something going on that she couldn't tell Gendou about...

Oh yes I think Yui definitely knew what was going to happen. Apart from her talk with Fuyutsuki in 2003 parts shown in 21' and 26' (becoming a test subject, talking about "eternal proof of humankinds existence" of an Eva with a human soul), the EoE Theatrical Program also states that Yui "...died in an accident during a test in 2004, but her soul remained inside Eva-01. Further, it seems that this accident was actually intended by her." Yui wanted her soul invested into Eva-01, and that's what happened. Everyone else saw it as an "accident" though, so it begs the question, what were they trying to achieve?

Kyoko, I would imagine, was a different story. She didn't achieve that infamous "400% Synch Rate" that Yui did --

Well I don't think Yui necessarily achieved a "400% Synch Rate". There was no resident soul of the Eva, there was nothing for Yui to "synch" with. She did lose her physical form though (somehow), and you're most correct, Kyoko didn't.

I guess Kyoko was a little less, erm, avid about going into Nigouki than Yui was with Sho? Granted, though, we're told next to nothing about Frau Zeppelin, so it's even harder to speculate about her than it is with Yui.

Well I like to think of the Eva-02 experiment as something "more" of a success than the Eva-01 experiment. *Something* happened, the side effect of which this time was not Kyoko being absorbed, but instead being left with mental instability.

One question, though, that probably seems very random: What do we know about Asuka's father? In addition to the meager glimpse of him given in the anime, is anything said about him in various NGE-related printed materials? Do we know if he worked for GEHIRN in Germany or not? Do we even know what his name is? [I'm guessing his surname is "Langley"...] About the only "interesting" thing I've been able to determine about him is that he was having an extramarital affair with the woman who would eventually become Asuka's stepmother. Heh.

We don't really know much about him at all. He's American (or at least has American nationality), yes his last name is Langley, and that's about all we know. I would say that it's probable that he worked for GEHIRN in German, his new wife is a doctor, I would say Kyoto was one as well (PhD in biotechnology or something perhaps, similar to Yui), so I would guess that he is one also. That's all conjecture though, we really don't know much about him at all.

Writing it off as "mental instability in the pilot" always seemed like a cheap substitute for a real explanation to me. The disruption was coming from the Eva, not Rei, wasn't it? In my opinion, no real substantial explanation is given for the incompatibility -- you even say, "brought on by something, I'm not sure what". >>} What on Earth would cause the soul of one Rei to reject the other and then, later on, to reject Shinji?

You're right, it is a substitute for a real explanation. But at the moment it's all we have. So far I can't think of anything better, if you can I would love to hear it. One possible idea is linked into the fact that Rei-001 isn't a true "mother" under the mother/child link theory. She can generate enough of a maternal connection to synchronise most of the time, it's just that on occasion (during tests with new pilots for instance) the connection doesn't synch correctly and the Eva goes out of control. Eva-00 is a prototype, it isn't working properly, and the soul inside of it is an "almost, but not quite" fit. If you want a comparison, then Yui would be an exact fit, Rei an almost fit, and Naoko a square peg trying to get into a round hole. You can get there with Rei, but there are problems, with Naoko you can't even get close.

[/b]Sure, the Naoko idea doesn't have much going for it at this point, but it did have the advantage that EVA-00's rejection of both Rei and Shinji at different points in time seemed to make perfect sense. ^_^ [/b]

Why? Naoko in Eva-00 faces the same problems that Rei-001 in Eva-00 does at this point. Why are those specific places did Eva-00 reject the pilots, why not at other times?

Plus Zerogouki's "temper tantrums" seem to me like the exact sort of thing Naoko would do if she were inside an Eva, given her predilection for fits of blind rage. ;;D

Well she wasn't so much blind as hallucinating ^_^

If I imagine Naoko being inside there, the bousou incidents seem considerably more "motivated" than if Rei-01 were behind them... The angsty clutching-at-her-head, the lashing-out at various NERV employees, the attempt to break through the wall of the experiment chamber (the Eva's innate desire for liberation??)... And then, of course, the mindless head-bashing in episode 14, (which tends to give me a good laugh whenever I see it). Though, on a deeper level, EVA-00's "irrational" behavior indicates, to my mind, a high degree of suffering and anger, one that seemed so much more appropriate if Naoko were in there.

Don't you think that Rei-001 would feel a similar level fo suffering and anger though?

Rei-01-in-Eva-00 would be able to find out about her death, but Naoko-in-Eva-00 wouldn't be able to find out that Ritsuko was sleeping with Gendou?

Yep ^_^ Becuase one involves Rei-001 gaining knowledge from Rei-002 about something deeply connected to both of them. The other involves Naoko gaining knowledge from Rei who probably wouldn't want to provide it.

I'm fuzzy on this myself, but wasn't it implied that Rei had been "working on" her synch rates with EVA-00 for a while? Some episode-browsing is probably in order to be more certain...

Misato says in episode 01 that it took Rei seven months to synchronise with her Eva and the incident in episode 05 took place "22 days ago". I haven't had time to have a more detailed look though.

Oh, I don't know... There really is no connection. Nothing Rei can't handle, though, right? ^_^ So what if her Eva hates her? "I don't mind. It comes with the job." Well... something like that.

I think its more fundamental than that, I don't think the pilot can just choose to synch. Also I think the power lies with the resident soul anyway, as demonstrated by Yui rejecting both the Dummy Plug and Rei in episode 19.

Mostly because Rei doesn't fit in with my happy little scheme of women who had experienced motherhood being the only valid candidates for placement into an Eva. The whole "Lilith" bit aside.


Well technically if Rei is a clone of Yui, and Yui was a mother, then Rei has the body of a mother ^_^ Of course I assume when you say "experimented motherhood" you mean psychologically as opposed to physiologically.

I tend to think that any Eva in her right mind would have a grudge against Ritsuko no matter what -- she is in charge of the Eva-related technology, most of which is a far cry from "humane".

None of the other Evas attack Ritsuko though during any other experiments...

Ok well I'm finished! Finally. Enjoy ^_^

[Jman479]

u type a lot

[Black_Knight]

There are a few factors to consider when considering Ritsuko's part in this.

When she said that there was no doubt that the eva was attacking her, that is a very dangerous assumption, seeing how other people had no doubts about something that it wasn't... I.E. Kaji mistaking Lilith for Adam, unless he just did that to screw with Misato.

Besides that, both attack occured when the eva's restraints where off, those shoulder thingies, what ever they are called. Since that is what kept the Eva's under NERV's control, this was explained in eps 19.

Also, I won't apoligies for this, but I gave up trying to read through all of your writing MDwigs. If I want a Mind ---- from you, I'd rather take it literally at this point. (Crack skull open and insert erect genital into gray matter) It would make things much easier than reading this... ;P

But if it was Rei's soul that's in Eva-00, the why would it attack Ritsuko? You say because Rei 1 wants all her compition out of the way. But then again, why didn't Eva-00 go beserk when it was stationed beside eva-01 during the sync testing in eps 15? I think you'd want to get Yui out of the picture, sure Rei is part Yui, but if eva-00 had the soul of the orignal Rei, wouldn't it be logical to take out all her compition including the other Rei's? I mean when Eva 00 and 01 went to battle against the 5th angel, you'd think that would be the perfect time to take over and beat eva-01 senseless while bumping off the predicesor Rei.

Besides that, your argument on this before is double sided, saying that if it was Naoko in Eva-00, why would she lash out against Ritsuko for bedding down with Gendo? They weren't in front of the eva, therefore Naoko wouldn't be able to see it. That also goes for if Rei was in the Eva, how would she have seen the affair that Gendo and Ritsuko were having, hu?