Serial Experiments Lain

[3foolishmen]

After watching it, my first response was an overwhelming sense of relief, that all the gloom and darkness and dismalness and blandness finally gave way to an uplifting ending. I don't think I've ever been as exhausted after watching a show, not even compared to Evangelion.

Anyway, I'm left with unanswered questions. How exactly was it that Lain got hold of the Knights' members list, and how did the folks from Tachibana Lab get it from her, in turn?

[Draco]

i remember the god guy saying that lain was everywhere so she probably knew right from thte start who Knights were, i think after the Knights pissed lain off she published the names of all the Knights members all over the Wired

[Rayna]

Non, the LAIN is not everywhere in the wired, she is everywhere in the memories of others. The reason that the LAIN was able to post the names of the members of the Knights through-out the Wired is because the Lain is a God of the Wired. "She" wills it and it becomes truth.

In a way.^^

[ATh]

Good to hear you have seen it as well 3f.

What do you mean by exhausted ?

Well if you recall, one unfortunate man was able to track down the Knights, and ended up dead because of it. Lain being the Child of Eiri (sort of) simply was everywhere within the wired and would have access to all of its information.

It is also Lain who lsitens in on other peoples secrets, and let everyone know of Arisu and her teacher.

As for how did the other group get it from her? it would seem she just let this information loose in the Wired and let whoever wanted it access to it. Im sure Tachibana Lab was always actively serching out who the Knights were, so would red flag any sort of information like this.

The ending is uplifting

ATh

[3foolishmen]

Yes, you're right, that Knights-wannabe must have been the link. I knew Lain could manipulate data across the Wired, but somehow I didn't get the impression that she was the one who spread the list.
Firing right along, my next question is, why, after Lain had once deleted the memories of Alice and her two friends, were their memories restored later? I think somewhere around Layer 8 Lain first deleted her friends' memories about who spread the rumors. All three forget all about the rumor.
Following this episode, in the latter half of Layer 11, Alice and Julie have restored their memories about the rumors. Alice receives mail from Julie inviting her to meet a friend of hers tomorrow. Then Lain "visits" Alice, telling her that she wasn't the one who spread the rumor. The next day, only Alice's memory is intact.
Is one fantasy and the other reality? Or both?

[ATh]

Actually i did not notice that, that julie had some inkling of the previous rumours.

Either way it seems that Lain does not erase the memories compleatly, by this i refer to the last layer, where everyone motions towards contacting Lain via various means, but stops short when they do not know why, or who they are refering to.

It is also possible that she did not change everyones memories fully at this early point in time as well.

At first the rumurs where a big focus, but the way Julie talks about it just before Arisu sees the alien Lain, it seems a little less ... of a problem?

So it seems to me that the rumour still exists, but due to Lains tinkering, it was less forceful

So I think they are both reality, it is not until layer 12 or 13 when Lain really manages to alter reality permanently.

ATh

[3foolishmen]

Express reply service? Almost like a chat room... ^^;

ATh: "Lain does not erase the memories compleatly, ...the last layer, where everyone stops short when they do not know why, or who they are refering to."

Okay, that would explain the two deletions, although it's hard for me to swallow, since the memory theory I'm familiar with doesn't allow for "layers", or degrees, of memory. As far as I'm concerned, memory works more like either/or.

One point I want to add is that the objects of the deletions are different(actually, this just came to me while typing). The object of the first deletion is the link in between Lain and the rumor, ie. that Lain was the one who was spying on people and spreading rumors, and the deletion was executed in only the three girls(or the whole world except Lain).

In contrast, the object of the second deletion was the link in between Alice and the teacher, ie. that Alice had a fancy for him. This deletion was restricted to Julie and the other girl(or the world excluding Lain and Alice).

[ATh]

Memory and the mind is not so cut and dry. An experiment was set up where peopel where asked to sovle puzzles. Now these people where asked at various times how close they thought they were to solving the puzzle. Nearly all the time when someone said close, they were right. So it seems that the solution is already in mind before conscious comprehension comes.

So memory is not either or (well not all memory, some of it is)

But yes i think you are correct, that the first erasion is that Lain was responsible for the rumour being spread.

Taking all of tis into consideration, i still find it difficult to really grasp the scene where Lain has removed all trace of her existance from the memories of others. She seems to be indicating that she no longer exists, but it is obvious that there is still a dicotomy, and thus existance.

(its too late for me to think clearly so il leave it here for now)

ATh

[3foolishmen]

First of all, I meant memory works on/off at the component level. I'm sure there're discrepancies in between our conceptions of what the term "memory" means and how it works, and getting on a par will probably go so far OT that I'm not going into this suptopic any further for now(although I'd be interested to look into that study you mentioned). All I meant was that memory theory as I know it wasn't kosher as it was portrayed in Lain(come to think of it, what is?).

ATh: "She seems to be indicating that she no longer exists, but it is obvious that there is still a dicotomy, and thus existance."

This was the most paradoxical event in the series for me. Alice doesn't remember Lain, but she knows she has met somebody, since she remembers the consequential episodes of meeting the forgotten Lain. Alice doesn't remember, but she knows. This happens again years later when Alice spots Lain over the footbridge. She doesn't remember, but she knows. Like you say, Lain continues to her presence in the real world through the very lack thereof. It seems to me that Lain has left one last legacy to the world from which she removed herself, one which concludes the series nicely.

[ATh]

Well i wil look through my notes for a reference to that study, but it was years ago that i saw it and have had many sping cleanings since.

It seems to fit in with the idea, that the Wired was not the upper layer of human consciousness, but a storehouse for the 'divine'.

If this is correct, then in a way it makes sense, for this Layer was always there, and yet can be either seperate from humanity or an active part. It also gives meaning as to how Lain can exist, and yet not exist, to be known, and yet not known.

But i guess that even here we are left wondering if this layer truely is a part of the human or something more- it weights a bit more heavily to the something more side, but Lain is so human in what she experiences it almost contridicts itself here.

ATh

[3foolishmen]

ATh: "we are left wondering if this layer truely is a part of the human or something more-..."

My take on this issue is this layer is not human, or not originally so. Like you say, the Layer was there, and it just happened that there was space for a "Deus-like" being to reign domain over it. Maybe a supreme being created this and other layers and still watches over them(a sense I got from the series)and maybe ulitmately it is h(H)is domain.

Nevertheless, one thing that this layer wasn't, was for humans. In the last Layer(as in ep), Lain says to Lain, "Until now, humans did fine even without knowing that.", refering to where, or what the Wired was. I don't think that, ultimately, answering this question, or defining the Wired, was part of the message of Lain.

[heart havok]

the conscious can be erased, the subconscious remembers all. note... in LAYER 0:13 EGO, Arisu remembers AND recognizes the LAIN. this is her subconscious. however, she can't place where whe knows the LAIN from. this is the conscious interfering and filtering the knowledge that Arisu knows as truth. thus labeling Arisu's knowledge as INFORNOGRAPHY. roughly, infornography is the sharing or creation of tattered, altered, or recreated information... INFORNOGRAPHY is not neccissarily FALSE information, just changed.

the LAIN never really deleted anyone's memories, she just basically deleted the conscious filters in one's mind, and replaced these filters with new ones which would direct the information stored in one's memory and replacing it with the person's INFORNOGRAPHY. hope that makes sense. adieu^^



by the way, it's good to see more Serial Experiments LAIN discussion going on.^^

[3foolishmen]

Heart Havok: "she just basically deleted the conscious filters in one's mind, and replaced these filters with new ones which would direct the information stored in one's memory and replacing it with the person's INFORNOGRAPHY."

Did you get the idea of "filters" from the series? I don't recall any mention of filters.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by 3foolishmen
Heart Havok: "she just basically deleted the conscious filters in one's mind, and replaced these filters with new ones which would direct the information stored in one's memory and replacing it with the person's INFORNOGRAPHY."

Did you get the idea of "filters" from the series? I don't recall any mention of filters.


well if you know what INFORNOGRAPHY is then, that helps alot in the understanding of the LAIN. a "filter" is just basically creative word usage on my behalf {some people say that i am too creative sometimes} but it's the only word that i know that can explain it.


think of it moreso of this way... you know how in LAYER 0:10 {i believe it's in LOVE} how the majority of the episode is information on real life matters? well, that is a setup for INFORNOGRAPHY because what they are talking about is an actual history that deals with INFORNOGRAPHY. in this history, the true files on the matter were "deleted" or rather changed for legal issues. in LOVE {again, i THINK that this is in LAYER 0:10} then they are taking us {"us" being tha audience} thru the INFORNOGRAPHY of the matter rather then the true history before the files were "deleted."


without using the term "filters" {since that word seems to have been rather misleading} i was basically saying that Arisu's memory has been "deleted" by the LAIN and simply replaced by INFORNOGRAPHY. her subconscious, on the other hand, can not be deleted because you cannot delete truth, you can only change it or replace it or manipulate it. the subconscious stores truth, the conscious stores memory. that's why Arisu recognized the LAIN, etc... however, she doesn't quite know why.


by the way, wasn't it sweet of the LAIN to pair up Arisu with the teacher? i thought so^^

i hope this has helped. adieu.

[DNA_Master]

this is completly off topic, but did you notice that the delivery guy in one ep looked almost identicle to that tech-guy in eva, ogi or whatever? (not hiaga, the other one, long hair.)

And also, I'll be getting a copy of the Lain fansub, so I'll be able to watch it again and again and again and again and again etcetera etcetera ad nausium

[3foolishmen]

Heart Havok: "you know how in LAYER 0:10 {i believe it's in LOVE} how the majority of the episode is information on real life matters?"

I think you mean in l.09:Protocol, where they give an overview of the research history that lead to the Wired.

Heart Havok: "in this history, the true files on the matter were "deleted" or rather changed for legal issues."

I thought that infornography was be synonymous with propaganda. This does seem to be the case.

Heart Havok: "her subconscious, on the other hand, can not be deleted because you cannot delete truth, you can only change it or replace it or manipulate it. the subconscious stores truth, the conscious stores memory."

I think I get what you're trying to say, but is this the way Lain manipulates memories?

Heart Havok: "wasn't it sweet of the LAIN to pair up Arisu with the teacher?"

Was that guy the teacher? He seems too young. However, I did think it was sweet that Alice chose pedagogy as her profession(undoubtedly in the footsteps of her first love).

[ATh]

Well this brings us back to what i was saying previously, that the Wired seems to be 'divine' but at the same time human.

The subconscious can not be erased because it is reality, and thus the 'divine' aspect, but it seems to be an undeniable facet of human reality as well.

This is where the paradox comes into play. Lain says that this never was meant for humans, but humans can not exist without this.

Now you say (3f) that you did get the sense that a Greater Overseer still watches over all of these layers.

I got the impression that it is Lain, at least for this planet, and that it is through the evolution of humans and technology that... well there i more or less ends for me as im yet to really come up with anything remotely plausable or even interesting.

ATh

[3foolishmen]

Heart Havok: "the conscious can be erased, the subconscious remembers all."

ATh: "The subconscious can not be erased because it is reality."

Where does this idea that the subconscious can't be erased come from? Where does this consensus come from? Has there been a previous discussion on this topic?

Lain can manipulate memories. But one characteristic of these manipulations is that they have consequential effects in the real world as well. If you recall, after she "all deleted" her memories from the real world, the real world was changed to a state in which the incidents triggering the Wired's integration with the real world had never taken place. Therefore, Eiri was revived and had not contrived of embedding the Schuman resonance code into Protocol 7; Chisa was revived; the KIDS experiemnt as conducted by the Knights had not taken place; and Karl and the other agent had been revived as, ironically, electric maintenance technicians. Presumably, the Knights members have been revived as well. Lain triggered these changes by deleting her memories from the people of the real world.

How can these physical changes in the real world be explained, if the subconscious is reality and Lain can't erased it? The concept of "filters" can't account for the physical changes, and the concept that the subconscious can't be overwritten isn't compatible with what happens at the end.

ATh: "This is where the paradox comes into play. Lain says that this never was meant for humans, but humans can not exist without this."

I thought the Wired was portrayed as inessential. Don't you mean, humans can exist without the Wired?

[ATh]

No, what im saying is the the Wired already existed before its manifestation in the form that it was shown. And that it is already an interegal part of the human make up.

S for your first bit i have a very jumbled way of putting it.

If you concider everyone as RAM (that they have to be active) then when they die, they are permenently lost.

however the 'Wired' (the 'divine' aspect of it) is reality, or is like Hard Drive, in that if people die, they are still accounted for, still rememberable.

Now this can never be erased, and it is this that unconsciously links everyone together. When Lain reset everything it was just like rebooting your pc to a former state, and we see how this time she manipulates things in a better way. (after all, humans are little more than applications)

Sorry for the spelling errors.

ATh

[Drizzten]

You wanna know what's goddamn annoying? Trying to watch the first Lain tape, and the picture dies out on you every 7 seconds. *shoots rental tape a nasty look* Dammit, Lain was getting so cool, I was only into the first episode, and the image and audio both started crapping out on me right when the student jumped off the roof.
:kaioken: There better be another copy of this...

[heart havok]

Originally posted by Drizzten
You wanna know what's goddamn annoying? Trying to watch the first Lain tape, and the picture dies out on you every 7 seconds. *shoots rental tape a nasty look* Dammit, Lain was getting so cool, I was only into the first episode, and the image and audio both started crapping out on me right when the student jumped off the roof.
:kaioken: There better be another copy of this...


yeah and what's more annoying is the idea that you may have read these spoilers.


Originally posted by 3foolishmen
Heart Havok: "the conscious can be erased, the subconscious remembers all."

ATh: "The subconscious can not be erased because it is reality."

Where does this idea that the subconscious can't be erased come from? Where does this consensus come from? Has there been a previous discussion on this topic?

Lain can manipulate memories. But one characteristic of these manipulations is that they have consequential effects in the real world as well. If you recall, after she "all deleted" her memories from the real world, the real world was changed to a state in which the incidents triggering the Wired's integration with the real world had never taken place. Therefore, Eiri was revived and had not contrived of embedding the Schuman resonance code into Protocol 7; Chisa was revived; the KIDS experiemnt as conducted by the Knights had not taken place; and Karl and the other agent had been revived as, ironically, electric maintenance technicians. Presumably, the Knights members have been revived as well. Lain triggered these changes by deleting her memories from the people of the real world.

How can these physical changes in the real world be explained, if the subconscious is reality and Lain can't erased it? The concept of "filters" can't account for the physical changes, and the concept that the subconscious can't be overwritten isn't compatible with what happens at the end.

damn you have a really GREAT way of asking questions. i truly love your indepth of it all. but eitherway...

i got the idea of "the conscious can be erased, the subconscious remembers all." from the basic story. to me it is clearly there as though to you the message might never be. it's all a matter of interpretation thru experience. eitherway... these "Physical" changes of the world aren't TRUE. they aren't the "REAL" world. these "physical" changes aren't even physical. they are MENTAL changes. the LAIN deletes and rewrites the memories of the world so that they REMEMBER and COMPREHEND these "physical" changes. in otherwords.. the LAIN simply changes the memories of the world to believe what their memories are telling them EVEN THOUGH it is not a "true" reality. the concept of "filters" CAN ammount for the physical changes. because these Physical changes AREN'T physical at all. it's all about the idea that you are what you are known as and nothing more. LAIN is LAIN. however, LAIN is LAINsmall and LAIN is LAINevil and LAIN is LAINwired and LAIN is LAINpast. what's "physical" is nothing more than memory. if you remember something, then you "know" something. and if you "know" that someone looks a certain way, then that person will look that way. if you you "know" that a person is alive, then that person will be alive. Lain alters the conscious memory to think it "knows" these false Physical realities. thus the world APPEARS to have changed physically... it's basically the Matrix only 100x more brilliant. basically... the LAIN is rewriting people so that their scences are playing tricks on them.

and now we come back to the subconscious. why can it not be erased? Arisu helped me with that one. in the end...


(Arisu) Hello.
(Lain) Hello...
(Arisu) I have ever met you, haven't I?
(Arisu) Were you a student where I taught as a student teacher?
(Arisu) No, you were not...
(Lain) How do you do?
(Arisu) What?
(Lain) It's "How do you do".
(Arisu) Really? Well, how do you do?
(Arisu) I am Alice. Don't you think my name exaggerated?
(Arisu) I feel small about my name...
(Arisu) Are you?
(Lain) Lain.
(Arisu) Lain...
(Teacher) Do you know her?
(Arisu) No. Wrong person.
(Arisu) Lain, good bye. I may see you again somewhere.
(Arisu) Bye.
(Teacher) Bye, Lain.

(Lain) Yes, I can see you anytime.

(Lain) I'm here. So, I am with you forever.


..Arisu remembers Lain. yet she doesn't know from where. when i took a course on Psychology, then we learned that when something comes to mind, when you remember yet cannot recollect why, when your instincts tell you something that you are consciously uncertain of, then it is a thought of the subconscious. this final scene ASSURES us {"us" being the Audience} that the connection between Arisu and Lain remains thru the everlasting subconscious.

[3foolishmen]

Heart Havok: "yeah and what's more annoying is the idea that you may have read these spoilers."

True...

Heart Havok: "the LAIN simply changes the memories of the world to believe what their memories are telling them EVEN THOUGH it is not a "true" reality.

Is this building on the concept introduced within the series about how the Earth inhabited by people connected via the Wired is beginning to parallel a brain composed of neurons connected via a neural network? If so, I can sort of relate to what you say on an intuitive level, although it's not clear enough to transcribe into words. The series has clearly left us with different impressions as well.

Heart Havok: "Arisu remembers Lain. yet she doesn't know from where."

My impression was quite the opposite. ^^; Alice doesn't remember, but she knows. Maybe the root cause of why I have difficulty understanding your perspective gives manifest to these differences in perception.

[3foolishmen]

Another thing. Are you sure that Alice's date is the teacher? Alice, at the time of the last scene, has had intern experience as a teacher. Which means she must have graduated from high school as well as completed, or be her senior year of higher education in pedagogy. This amounts to 1+3+2(minimum) years from the time she was in junior high(the Japanese K-12 is organized as 6+3+3).

The teacher was in his middle twenties(younger estimation), say 25 for argument's sake, when Alice was 2nd yr junior high. That means he would have to be at least 31 at the time of the last scene.

Doesn't Alice's date seem too young for 31?

[heart havok]

Originally posted by 3foolishmen
Heart Havok: "yeah and what's more annoying is the idea that you may have read these spoilers."

True...

Heart Havok: "the LAIN simply changes the memories of the world to believe what their memories are telling them EVEN THOUGH it is not a "true" reality.

Is this building on the concept introduced within the series about how the Earth inhabited by people connected via the Wired is beginning to parallel a brain composed of neurons connected via a neural network? If so, I can sort of relate to what you say on an intuitive level, although it's not clear enough to transcribe into words.

yeah, you're catching on...^^


Originally posted by 3foolishmen
The series has clearly left us with different impressions as well.

but that's what's so GREAT about Serial Experiments Lain... it can 'connect' to so many people in so many different ways.. that's why i am so anxious for more people to see it... because i believe that it could at least come close to being as discussed as Eva.



Originally posted by 3foolishmen
Heart Havok: "Arisu remembers Lain. yet she doesn't know from where."

My impression was quite the opposite. ^^; Alice doesn't remember, but she knows. Maybe the root cause of why I have difficulty understanding your perspective gives manifest to these differences in perception.

that is so great though... that's all i can say... i am so enthraulled with the intuity of how different our perspectives are.

damn... i want to watch Lain again now... damn shame i can't for another 4hrs.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by 3foolishmen
Another thing. Are you sure that Alice's date is the teacher? Alice, at the time of the last scene, has had intern experience as a teacher. Which means she must have graduated from high school as well as completed, or be her senior year of higher education in pedagogy. This amounts to 1+3+2(minimum) years from the time she was in junior high(the Japanese K-12 is organized as 6+3+3).

The teacher was in his middle twenties(younger estimation), say 25 for argument's sake, when Alice was 2nd yr junior high. That means he would have to be at least 31 at the time of the last scene.

Doesn't Alice's date seem too young for 31?


the only reason that i am 100% possitive that he is the teacher is because i have a copy of the actual script {with and without english subtitles actually^^} and he is called "teacher" thru the entire script.

i mean "script" singular because it has the entire series as a whole separated by chapters. coinsidensially, the chapters are called LAYERs! seriously though, it says it in the script. and if you're familiar with screenplays, a name for someone isn't used for two different people, etcetra.

[Drizzten]

No, I have learned from my NGE mistakes and I'm NOT reading anything to do with Lain. The possiblities of this series are too interesting for me to ruin it :) BTW, the picture and sound got better and cleaned up after the second Layer. Geez, Lain certainly changed after she got the Navi hooked up, didn't she?

[3foolishmen]

Heart Havok: "he is called "teacher" thru the entire script."

I concede.

Drizzten: "I'm NOT reading anything to do with Lain."

Just keep it up and don't yield to the temptation until you finish watching all eps.

[Drizzten]

Something that I think might tie in here...just read the article. You Lainers might find it interesting....

http://www.gamersrepublic.com/allformat/CrossPlatform/News/112000/majestic.asp

Here's a quote about the game:
Combining real-life conspiracies with their own Majestic fictions, players might have a tough time discerning reality from the fantasy

[death]

I just saw all 13 ep yesterday night. Darm that was cool! I can't think of a better way of spending a night!

[3foolishmen]

Your first time and you watched it through? Perhaps you'd post your impressions/reflections?

[heart havok]

indeed... i KNOW for a FACT that more people have seen Serial Experiments Lain than just ATh, 3foolishmen, and i.... ::glares at Soup::

please, share us your ideas on the LAIN! did it ---- your mind? what do you think about it? about it's "message" if any? about it's realism? etcetra etcetra? come on! it's my FAVOURITE ANIME and i have hardly ANYONE to discuss it with!

..maybe ATh, 3foolishmen, and i are the only ones BRAVE ENOUGH to tackle the topics of the Lain... BWAHAHHAHA

[Drizzten]

I finished the second tape of Layers. I get now why she is "fainting" so much in the beginning...the Lain of the Wired is taking over. So she's now comfortably "surfing" the Wired on her heavily upgraded Navi and seemingly making friends there, for both Lains? Urgh, I had the feeling this anime could get crazy-deep. WTF is the importance of that Dr guy, the one who did the experiments? I get he was trying to harness the power of a group of childrens' psychic powers...

[Drizzten]

*does happy box-set dance*

I splurged and bought the Lain Lunchbox set online today. :B: Maybe soon I can read the damn posts here...

[heart havok]

Originally posted by Drizzten
I finished the second tape of Layers. I get now why she is "fainting" so much in the beginning...the Lain of the Wired is taking over. So she's now comfortably "surfing" the Wired on her heavily upgraded Navi and seemingly making friends there, for both Lains? Urgh, I had the feeling this anime could get crazy-deep. WTF is the importance of that Dr guy, the one who did the experiments? I get he was trying to harness the power of a group of childrens' psychic powers...

:nono:

watch LAYERs WEIRD-EGO before asking questions.^^

[Drizzten]

*hangs head*
Yes, Sir.

[Draco]

hey Drizzten what's "Anta Baka?!?!"

[heart havok]

hey, stay on topic or get out of this thread... us fans od Serial Experiments Lain only have this thread, so don't run it off topic. ::insert mean face here::

by the way, "anata baka" means "are you stupid?" "you're stuid" or anything of the such... "Baka" can also translate to "silly" "idiot" "weirdo" and others of the such.

[Draco]

hey thanx for the explanation :cool:

[3foolishmen]

http://www.animeboards.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6382

Thanks.

[heart havok]

okay, we've a new fan of Serial Experiments Lain joining our tiny thread and our small group of deep thinkers here. and it is none other than DrZepp!! welcome DrZepp everyone!!

::clap clap clap::

tell us a bit about yourself DrZepp...

DrZepp: "well, i uhhh.."

::steals mic:: thank you Zepp, i'm sure we'll love your company!^^

:lol: sorry... i'm just happy to have more people to join us to talk about the Lain^^

very excited^^

here's his questions...from the thread found here http://www.animeboards.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6751

DrZepp's pondering mind
there needs to be a lain forum, this series could spawn SO MUCH discussion. i have just completed layer 13 and i... i dont know let me just ask some questions or state some things that i am not sure about.

first of all what do you think happened to lains sister? here is what i think. (keep in mind i dont know all of the names, i JUST got finished watching it and i need to go back and pick up on details) ok the one guys plan was to make the wired and the real world mix, to erase the borders, i think this happened to lains sister, it seemed like she was the result of the real world and wired mixed. i have absolutely NO hard evidence to back this up and it sounds sort of ridiculouse now that i think about it (because how would this happen to her) but i just want to start discussion. also was Gisa experimented on, did she come to the conclusion that she could exist in the wired by herself? if she really did exist in the wired wouldnt she have to be like lain? i mean she killed herself and still was in the wired, could anyone do this (kill themself and exist in the wired) i thought the only reason lain existed throughout the whole wired was because that was her original state, she was created in the wired. was the "god" character created in the wired as well or was he human before, lain says he existed before the wired was even created. here are my theorys of what the "god" character was: (once again i cant think of any hard evidence to back this up) i think the wired has always been there, i cant explain it but there was the potential thought of the wired that always existed, its like everything that will happen in our world is already existing, but it is laying dormant, when it happens it is woken up, its like its there as potential. like if there is an object there is a pontential for that object to be moved, the potential is ALWAYS there but when it is acted upon it becomes truth, it becomes factual. i think this is what god is.....ill leave it at that, and ill wait for your comments, opinions, or flames. and i will be thinking of how i can explain this better.


alright... i'll be back to answer after others do!^^

::just declared hmself the Largest fan of Serial Experiments Lain::

adieu.

[Drizzten]

OK, I finished the series last night, and I'm very impressed. I showed the first 4 eps to my friends last light, but warned them they wouldn't get it at the beginning. HA! I think I gave them nightmares about the scenes with the shifting faces...

Speaking of the faces, does anyone know the significance of them? They alternated between a kind of psycho-happy, to a manical glare, to other faces that were just scary. The girl who threw herself in front of the train...the girl chasing the gamer up to his front door...I don't understand.

Also, the first eps had several dialogue exchanges with the trippy background. After watching the series and re-watching those eps, I get the feeling Lain is speaking to herself and to/with Chisa. Is this correct? I'm sorry if I've forgotten anything important...this anime requires multiple viewings. :)

[BigShot Jordan]

man,i have to watch the rest of the series so i can start asking questions and talk in here.i have only seen 7 episodes.

[DrZepp]

Also, the first eps had several dialogue exchanges with the trippy background. After watching the series and re-watching those eps, I get the feeling Lain is speaking to herself and to/with Chisa. Is this correct? I'm sorry if I've forgotten anything important...this anime requires multiple viewings

i think that the text with trippy background is lain in the wired talking to lain in the real world. ok thats just a idea i have, dont know a true answer, oh wait you said the same thing. i agree with you, i dont know what else it could be, maybe it was lain talking to god, or just a voice talking to the subconscious of lain or all of humanity. i am leaning towards the one you said though

[heart havok]

BigShot Jordan's statement
man,i have to watch the rest of the series so i can start asking questions and talk in here.i have only seen 7 episodes.

get on the ball... we need more people to discuss it with us.

Drizzten thoughts on the matter
OK, I finished the series last night, and I'm very impressed. I showed the first 4 eps to my friends last light, but warned them they wouldn't get it at the beginning. HA! I think I gave them nightmares about the scenes with the shifting faces...

interesting...

Drizzten thoughts on the matter
Speaking of the faces, does anyone know the significance of them? They alternated between a kind of psycho-happy, to a manical glare, to other faces that were just scary. The girl who threw herself in front of the train...the girl chasing the gamer up to his front door...I don't understand.

i don't remember the little girl having a "shifting face" but i believe that the girl who threw herself infront of the train's face shifted to show death in an original and more artistic way than we are used to. because it goes from her frightened look to what appeared to me as a skull. that's just what it looked like to me though.

Drizzten thoughts on the matter
Also, the first eps had several dialogue exchanges with the trippy background. After watching the series and re-watching those eps, I get the feeling Lain is speaking to herself and to/with Chisa. Is this correct? I'm sorry if I've forgotten anything important...this anime requires multiple viewings.

hai. in the beginning she is speaking with Chisa on e-mail. for example...

Lain: "what does it feel like to die?"
Chisa: "it really hurts :)"


however, later in the series, it is Lain talking to Lain. just keep that in mind as you watch it again, and it will become more clear.

hai. i still need to watch this anime more. i've only watched it about 5times straight thru. the problem with me though, is that if i watch it alone, then it puts me to sleep... rather ironic considering it is my favourite anime. but yes. multiple viewings? yes. deeper than the mind's eye? definitely. :)

DrZepp's pondering mind
there needs to be a lain forum, this series could spawn SO MUCH discussion. i have just completed layer 13 and i... i dont know let me just ask some questions or state some things that i am not sure about.

yes, there NEEDs to be a forums for Seriel Experiments Lain. more importantly, there needs to be more people who have seen it.


DrZepp's pondering mind
first of all what do you think happened to lains sister?

ATh and myself discussed this at Liuokin's boards (http://pub28.ezboard.com/bngefansite). here's what we came up with.

from the mind of ATh
Well the only way to really expalin Mika (i think that her sisters name) is that the Knights dealt with her as they percieved her as a threat to their own agenda.

They attempted at actually kill Lain herself when she showed signs of not being so easily decieved.
then i responded with this...

myself
but yeah. i understood the Knights part. but what EXACTLY was going on with her? {yes, i think her name was Mika as well}... but just all of a sudden she's schitzing out, and no one knows why other than LAIN. in fact, no one notices other than LAIN. and then. POOF she's gone from the story. i also figured the Knights did something. but "What did they do?" is the question.

the conversation has YET to continue from that.

those who are interested... the thread is here (http://pub28.ezboard.com/fngefansitefrm29.showMessage?topicID=4.topic).
[/b]
DrZepp's pondering mind
here is what i think. (keep in mind i dont know all of the names, i JUST got finished watching it and i need to go back and pick up on details) ok the one guys plan was to make the wired and the real world mix, to erase the borders, i think this happened to lains sister, it seemed like she was the result of the real world and wired mixed. i have absolutely NO hard evidence to back this up and it sounds sort of ridiculouse now that i think about it (because how would this happen to her) but i just want to start discussion.

i am thinking tonight, i will watch Lain again, and i will definitely keep that in mind. i like your idea here. i had not yet thought of that one. but i think it is more probable than you yourself might even believe.

i'll get back to you on that.

DrZepp's pondering mind
also was Gisa experimented on, did she come to the conclusion that she could exist in the wired by herself? if she really did exist in the wired wouldnt she have to be like lain? i mean she killed herself and still was in the wired, could anyone do this (kill themself and exist in the wired)

who's Gisa? i think you mean Chisa... but just correct me if i'm wrong. eitherway, they don't explain Chisa... most likely because the series is about the LAIN serial experiments. not Serial Experiments Chisa.^^ i haven't come up with an explination for this, it could be anything. there could be any reason that Chisa believed in the Wired. i say "believed" because i don't think anyone would commit suicide with such faith in the Wired if they didn't believe in it. and it's not like the Wired is exactly taught to students in school. maybe Chisa herself was an Application just as was the Lain. then maybe Chisa had been doing the same thing the Lain was and had given in and commited suicide. {as opposed to the Lain NOT giving in at the end, and overcoming what she's told and holding on to what she believes in} then again, maybe Chisa was e-mailed by the Knights or something. maybe they conned her into commiting suicide. maybe it was Eiri's doing... and he wanted to speak to the Lain thru Chisa. or maybe {though i doubt it} Chisa didn't know about the Wired before she commited suicide. maybe she was simply commiting suicide, and found out afterwards. {though the TEXT: "i only abandoned my flesh, i can prove i am still very alive" to me seems like "abandoning her flesh" was her intention all along}


DrZepp's pondering mind
i thought the only reason lain existed throughout the whole wired was because that was her original state, she was created in the wired.
i personally don't believe that. though the Lain is an "application," i believe that Eiri {"god"} was only suggesting that she was created within the wired so that he could con her into giving in and "abandoning her flesh"... notice the Lain's "father" was in the Wired. as well as others consisting of some old man, that other boy {a Knight} mentioned being in the Wired, the boy in the action game was in both places... etc. to me, the Wired was simply another plane of existence... just as we do today... just as we have our "real" lifes, and our lifes inside {gasp!} the Wired... the internet... i believe that the Wired in SE:Lain is basically written off of that concept. then again, i could be completely wrong, and maybe the only reason Chisa existed in the Wired as well is because she was an Application as well. i can't say. but just keep all this in mind next time you watch.

DrZepp's pondering mind
was the "god" character created in the wired as well or was he human before, lain says he existed before the wired was even created.
when we {the audience} are first introduced to Eiri, Lain speaks of a time when he was human.

DrZepp's pondering mind
here are my theorys of what the "god" character was: (once again i cant think of any hard evidence to back this up) i think the wired has always been there, i cant explain it but there was the potential thought of the wired that always existed, its like everything that will happen in our world is already existing, but it is laying dormant, when it happens it is woken up, its like its there as potential. like if there is an object there is a pontential for that object to be moved, the potential is ALWAYS there but when it is acted upon it becomes truth, it becomes factual. i think this is what god is.....

yes. they say the exact same thing as you in {i believe} LAYER 0:10 -LOVE. if not that episode, then it is somewhere around. but nonetheless.. they explain is just as vividly as you just have^^

DrZepp's pondering mind
ill leave it at that, and ill wait for your comments, opinions, or flames. and i will be thinking of how i can explain this better.
there you go, i certainly hope i've helped out. and i look MUCH MORE than forward to sharing more discussions here on Serial Experiments Lain.

and remember.... "no matter where, we are all connected."

adieu.

[heart havok]

DrZepp's second comment on the Serial Experiments
Also, the first eps had several dialogue exchanges with the trippy background. After watching the series and re-watching those eps, I get the feeling Lain is speaking to herself and to/with Chisa. Is this correct? I'm sorry if I've forgotten anything important...this anime requires multiple viewings

i think that the text with trippy background is lain in the wired talking to lain in the real world. ok thats just a idea i have, dont know a true answer, oh wait you said the same thing. i agree with you, i dont know what else it could be, maybe it was lain talking to god, or just a voice talking to the subconscious of lain or all of humanity. i am leaning towards the one you said though

actually, it changes between LAIN and Chisa, LAIN and LAINwired, LAIN and LAINsmall, LAIN and LAINevil, and LAIN and LAINpast.

it's in the script.^^

[Drizzten]

An artistic representation of death, before it occurs? The pain on your face when it happens, combined with other emotions? The train girl certainly walked in front of it willingly. Her death a welcome release, like Chisa's? Hmmm...

Why do you think Evil Lain told everyone about the crush that Arisu had? Was EL just Lain's uncaring, wild, trouble-making side? Certainly if Lain could reset the memories of others, why wouldn't EL do it to have everyone remember? All the Lains are different manifestations/copies/instances of the first Lain, right? Shouldn't they have the same powers?

[BigShot Jordan]

i have a question.what is up with that little kid that is at Cyberia alot and asked Mika out for a date.I remember that he wanted to go out with Lain on a date as well. he is quite confident with women,don't you think? do you guys know who i'm talking about? that kid who hung out with that one guy and the little girl on the layer(episode):Psyche.Lain came up to him asking him what a poshuke chip is.


how old is this kid anyways? he looks like he is about 10 or 11 and he asks Lain's sister out for a date and knows a whole lotta' stuff about computers.


see you space cowboys.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by Drizzten
An artistic representation of death, before it occurs? The pain on your face when it happens, combined with other emotions? The train girl certainly walked in front of it willingly. Her death a welcome release, like Chisa's? Hmmm...
they never make it clear whether or not the girl WALKED in front of the train, all they make clear is the fact that Lain saw the entire thing. in fact, it's always possible that the reason that she had a "shifting face" was to show that her death was DIFFERENT than Chisa's. you can't say that she CERTAINLY walked in front of the train unless they clarify that. can you point this out? because i will be watching soon.

Originally posted by Drizzten
Why do you think Evil Lain told everyone about the crush that Arisu had? Was EL just Lain's uncaring, wild, trouble-making side? Certainly if Lain could reset the memories of others, why wouldn't EL do it to have everyone remember? All the Lains are different manifestations/copies/instances of the first Lain, right? Shouldn't they have the same powers?
because she's evil. no, actually, that's the main questin that i still have wondering thru my head... is "what exactly are the five Lains?" well... the way it appears to me after reading the script as well is that "Lain is Lain"... she is the "real" Lain, and nothing less. the other Lain's are merely the versions of her that reside within the memories of others. LAINwired is clearly what people remember of the personality portrays in the Wired. LAINevil is the envisionment of Lain spreding runours. LAINpast is only in one scene, and i always forget which one she is. LAINsmall is the "Alien" Lain or the one in the Freddy Cougar sweater and seems to have two forms, one form that helps people and seems to know something that others don't and the second form that Lain sees as the Alien... to me, this is implying that the part of Lain that knows what is going on is Alien to herself, thus her memory of herself looks Alien.

Originally posted by Jordan
i have a question.what is up with that little kid that is at Cyberia alot and asked Mika out for a date.I remember that he wanted to go out with Lain on a date as well. he is quite confident with women,don't you think? do you guys know who i'm talking about? that kid who hung out with that one guy and the little girl on the layer(episode)Psyche.Lain came up to him asking him what a poshuke chip is.
it's called a "Psyche" Chip.^^

Originally posted by Jordan
how old is this kid anyways? he looks like he is about 10 or 11 and he asks Lain's sister out for a date and knows a whole lotta' stuff about computers.
i don't remember which LAYER they reveal this, so i won't say it. just watch it all first. :nono: then we can answer your questions.


[Edited by heart havok on 09-12-2000 at 01:01 AM]

[Drizzten]

Havok:
they never make it clear whether or not the girl WALKED in front of the train, all they make clear is the fact that Lain saw the entire thing. in fact, it's always possible that the reason that she had a "shifting face" was to show that her death was DIFFERENT than Chisa's. you can't say that she CERTAINLY walked in front of the train unless they clarify that. can you point this out? because i will be watching soon.
Well, I'll watch the scene again, but as I remember it, the girl calmly moved to the tracks, even dipping under the guards on the intersecting road. She stood there, wind blowing in her hair, as the train approached. Lain was yelling at her, yelling something, but you can't hear it due to the train's noise. The girl, if able to sense the sound and light of the oncoming train, certainly didn't move out of the way when it came. But, then again, we never actually see the train hit her, it's just implied.
Havok:
LAINsmall is the "Alien" Lain or the one in the Freddy Cougar sweater and seems to have two forms, one form that helps people and seems to know something that others don't and the second form that Lain sees as the Alien... to me, this is implying that the part of Lain that knows what is going on is Alien to herself, thus her memory of herself looks Alien.
I was wondering about the alien. They mentioned Roswell, then showed Lain seeing that alien (which f*cking flipped me out) in her doorway. With what you said, and how the series handled it, I get the feeling that part of Lain is alien...either "God" did something to join Lain and the alien and then input that resulting program into the Wired, or "God" used the alien's knowledge to create Lain.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by Drizzten
Well, I'll watch the scene again, but as I remember it, the girl calmly moved to the tracks, even dipping under the guards on the intersecting road. She stood there, wind blowing in her hair, as the train approached. Lain was yelling at her, yelling something, but you can't hear it due to the train's noise. The girl, if able to sense the sound and light of the oncoming train, certainly didn't move out of the way when it came. But, then again, we never actually see the train hit her, it's just implied.

sure, anything's possible. and i remember the girl walking towards the rainroad tracks as well. however, if it doesn't show that she INTENTIONALLY got hit by it, then i believe ANY possibilities.........................

Originally posted by Drizzten
I was wondering about the alien. They mentioned Roswell, then showed Lain seeing that alien (which f*cking flipped me out) in her doorway. With what you said, and how the series handled it, I get the feeling that part of Lain is alien...
...........EXCEPT for that. :goof:

Originally posted by Drizzten
either "God" did something to join Lain and the alien and then input that resulting program into the Wired, or "God" used the alien's knowledge to create Lain.
well, first of all, his name is Eiri. second, they clearly state that Eiri didn't really create Lain and that it is actually the other way around Eiri's words. eitherway, that's a mighty original opinion on the matter you have there. though i personally like to believe myself that it is much deeper than that.

[DrZepp]

well, first of all, his name is Eiri. second, they clearly state that Eiri didn't really create Lain and that it is actually the other way around Eiri's words. eitherway, that's a mighty original opinion on the matter you have there. though i personally like to believe myself that it is much deeper than that.


the only thing i can disagree with you (sort of) on is if Eiri created lain. i dont know if HE created her but i think the first lain was created in the wired. if lain wasnt created in the wired then how could she have so much power there, but this is then contradicted by the fact that it is said that Eiri was in fact alive in the real world before he bacame "god" of the wired. if chisa survived in the wired this meant she had to be some application or have great power in the wired, so could anyone be "god" in the wired. now back to the first part, i think lain was created in the wired but in the end it didnt even matter. in the end lain DID have a human body and who is to say that her in the wired is the "real" lain or herself in the real world is the "real" lain, they are all real therefor weather she was created in the wired, created by Eiri or created in the real world is irrelivant. they are ALL real. and even if Eiri created her he did not controll her, so in the end i think lain gained a sense of self but at the same time completely gave herself up. her existence could not be defined by the concious though therefor could her existence be varified? do you know when you are walking in the night and you feel like someone is watching you, i feel thats what lain became, an astray thought in the furthest reaches of your mind that is there just enough to make you mind wander somewhere else. if things like this were not present we would be brain dead, these things keep us thinking CONSTANTLY. if you search hard enough, can you find your subconcious, it seems like i can hear it sometimes. my god i am going off topic and rambling, anyway you get the point.

[ATh]

Well i guess ill join in and disrupt things.

It is never made perfectly clear that Eiri did not create Lain

infact i would say that he did, but..

there is always a but.

To me Lain is the World consciousness, Thus a god of this world, and a god amoungst gods)other planets)

In order for her to become manifest as she intended she needed to join the Wired (her realm) with the realm of humans. Humanities technological progress has been manipulated by her thus, and directed thus.

Now nearing the completion of her project she gave Eiri the idea to uplaod himself into the 7th protocol, creating himself into a being capable of creating Lain within the Wired, and then within the real world.

So Eiri did create Lain, but it was under the supervision of Lain.

ATh

[heart havok]

Originally posted by DrZepp
the only thing i can disagree with you (sort of) on is if Eiri created lain. i dont know if HE created her but i think the first lain was created in the wired. if lain wasnt created in the wired then how could she have so much power there, but this is then contradicted by the fact that it is said that Eiri was in fact alive in the real world before he bacame "god" of the wired. if chisa survived in the wired this meant she had to be some application or have great power in the wired, so could anyone be "god" in the wired. now back to the first part, i think lain was created in the wired but in the end it didnt even matter. in the end lain DID have a human body and who is to say that her in the wired is the "real" lain or herself in the real world is the "real" lain, they are all real therefor weather she was created in the wired, created by Eiri or created in the real world is irrelivant. they are ALL real. and even if Eiri created her he did not controll her, so in the end i think lain gained a sense of self but at the same time completely gave herself up. her existence could not be defined by the concious though therefor could her existence be varified? do you know when you are walking in the night and you feel like someone is watching you, i feel thats what lain became, an astray thought in the furthest reaches of your mind that is there just enough to make you mind wander somewhere else. if things like this were not present we would be brain dead, these things keep us thinking CONSTANTLY. if you search hard enough, can you find your subconcious, it seems like i can hear it sometimes. my god i am going off topic and rambling, anyway you get the point.

rambling is okay^^

eitherway, i don't know what's going on with Chisa, but i CERTAINLY am sure that you don't have to be an "application" or whatever tobe in the wired. Arisu mentioned seeing Lain in the Wired. that one boy mentions seeing her in the Wired. i've already given some other examples in previous posts. overall, Arisu... are you saying that she must be an Application of some sort as well?

Originally posted by ATh
Well i guess ill join in and disrupt things.

It is never made perfectly clear that Eiri did not create Lain

infact i would say that he did, but..

there is always a but.

To me Lain is the World consciousness, Thus a god of this world, and a god amoungst gods)other planets)

In order for her to become manifest as she intended she needed to join the Wired (her realm) with the realm of humans. Humanities technological progress has been manipulated by her thus, and directed thus.

Now nearing the completion of her project she gave Eiri the idea to uplaod himself into the 7th protocol, creating himself into a being capable of creating Lain within the Wired, and then within the real world.

So Eiri did create Lain, but it was under the supervision of Lain.

yes, that is what i was implying... however, Lain created herself thru Eiri.^^ however, it seemed to me that it's more like Lain's father was God. and Lain is just Christ or something like that. note, when Lain is lastly talking to her Father, she is sitting with him at the floating dinnertable in the sky and he says that she doesn't need her adorable TeddyBear Pajamas anymore. did anyone notice that the Lain wears these when she appears to be troubled? ..when she appears to be grasping ahold of her choldhood innocense and ignorance.


now. on to something else....................

one thing i noticed is that nobody seems to make note of the ways that Serial Experiments Lain covers some amazing ideals about the Human Memory. this is what i think the story is about more than anything else. yeah, the plot revolves around Lain traveling thru the wired and all that weird ----, but i think it's more about memory. notice that each eposide starts with "Present day. Present time." this is an OAV, not a television series. thus, they are not saying that it happens in the overall range of 13days.... wouldn't they be saying that this ALL happens within the range of about 12hrs? think about that for a bit. and then we have the different Lains. each Lain resembling a different part of her.. LAINwired of the Wired, LAINevil of the Rumors, LAINsmall as the Alien, LAINpast fighting off LAINevil, and LAIN as Lain.notice that each of these "versions" of Lain are seen only at different times and places and when they do different things. these LAINs are the Lains of the memories of others. SeLAIN speaks of nonexistence without yourself being known of. if you don't know of something, then does it really exist? another MAIN question they bring up is that if you don't remember it, then how do you know it really happened? seriously, think about that... how DO you know it really happened if you can't remember it to Recall whether or not it really did! then think back to the "Present day. Present time." thing... they all start out the same, with subtle changes like the Green or Red light {which i will find the meaning of if it kills me} and the "someone" speaking at the beginning. maybe these are the EXACT SAME days... maybe each day, we are restarting with a different REWRITTEN "reality"... just a thought. but more importantly... where does lain disappear to in LAYER-EGO? we see the familiar way to school, but there is no Lain. no Lain. no Lain. she said to Arisu that she was going to delete herself from the memories of othrs. that's what she did. and we have her presence, kind of like what DrZepp mentioned... the presense is there, but not Physically. and we follow this presence just to see an alternate reality with Arisu. and NO, this is not just in the future, because this "Present day. Present time." is switched around even and is not at the beginning of the episode, but rather around the middle!!!

okay, i think i've brought too much up for one post... now i am going to go vote for a Lain Forums in the Request Forums forum.

[ATh]

I doubt that Lains Father is God. he certainly represents a kind figure within that scene you mention, but i still believe it is constructed by Lain.

As for memory, i dont see time as being linear, so i have little to say about your questions. Though in topic, The wired was thought to be the higher level of human consciousness, and yet Lain says that it is a store house of something greater, that is not related to the human mind

ATh

[3foolishmen]

Heart Havok: "Serial Experiments Lain covers some amazing ideals about the Human Memory."

That is definitely one of the eminent themes of the series.

Heart Havok: "this is an OAV, not a television series."

Actually, I'm certain that the series was broadcast on a weekly basis.

Heart Havok: "thus, they are not saying that it happens in the overall range of 13days.... wouldn't they be saying that this ALL happens within the range of about 12hrs?"

I don't get this... Even if the series had not been broadcast, how can you argue this point? I seem to recall(vaguely) that some account of passage of time was included within the series, such as weekends vs weekdays, seasonal events, etc.

[3foolishmen]

Heart Havok, why do you type in bold? No mean to point out, just curious. Noticed that sometimes it's hard to read and it's also hard to pinpoint accents and emphases within your text.

[ATh]

Originally posted by 3foolishmen


Heart Havok: "this is an OAV, not a television series."

Actually, I'm certain that the series was broadcast on a weekly basis.



You are right, the OST has the TV version of the opening theme, which differs from the opening song of the DVD, in that it has the young girl speaking to Taro just before the music begins (im not too sure about that as without subbs its all greek, or Japanese in this case, to me :) )

So it is a TV series, not OAV but i do not really see this making much difference (Only Tenchi seems to as OAV equals the good stuff, tv series equals the lame stuff)

ATh

[Drizzten]

The emphasis on memories and the power they have is one of the coolest aspects to SEL. If you can't remember something, then you can't relate to others who do remember it. You can't compare the past and the present. You can't judge someone or something relative to their prior behavior. "He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." I forget who said that, but it makes sense. Memories are powerful things, and the human brain isn't a perfect memory storage faciliy by any measure.

Lain re-writes the present by deleting the instances of her in the memories of others. It seemed to me that Life/Nature filled in the holes she left...when she left. :) Do you think she has the ability to add memories or just delete them and let the chips fall as they may? Obviously, everyone feels a unspoken and unexplainable connection to each other after Lain does the mass-deleting, kinda like deja vu. Do you think she left those residual memories in...or can she even touch the sub-conscious? Because they can't really place the faces, they don't say anything out loud to each other on the street to indicate recognizing or feeling something towards the people they see. Also, don't you think it's wierd that Arisu grows up and becomes a teacher, but the group of Cyberia kids, the MIB, the boy who shot himself and his sister, and Eiri stay the same age? Do you think Lain has that power to change things that dramatically? Or is it just limited to deleting conscious memories?

[heart havok]

::trying to redo it correctly.
Originally posted by ATh
I doubt that Lains Father is God. he certainly represents a kind figure within that scene you mention, but i still believe it is constructed by Lain.
i don't believe he is god either, but i'm just pointing out one of the many posibilities. look at the Christian God. what does he do, he guides his children. Lain's father in the entire series is Guiding Lain. though he's very secreted with his actions, he is not ony raising Lain, but raising her into the Wired. he welcomes her into the Wired. he knows about the wired, and he supports it. he too spends most of his time in the wired.he is Guiding Lain so that Lain may guide the people. just as "God" did with Christ. he guided Christ to guiding the people. so Lain may be more like Christ because she is the one walking the earth, she is the one righting wrongs... her Father is merely guiding her. and i convinced myself this now.

Originally posted by ATh
As for memory, i dont see time as being linear, so i have little to say about your questions. Though in topic, The wired was thought to be the higher level of human consciousness, and yet Lain says that it is a store house of something greater, that is not related to the human mind
it is quite a shame that you didnt see the connections about memory that i did... i was looking forward to your thoughts on this.i certainly agree with your thoughts on the wired, but i believe that Serial Experiments Lain goes much deeper than the Wired and Gods.

take this for example...

Present Day. Present Time.

i only abandoned my flesh.

i can prove that i'm still alive.

why you have to do it is...

you have to consider yourself.

i...

..i don't need to be here.

if i remain such a place as here...

i couldn't keep connecting...

hurry, everybody.

what's it feel like to be dead?

it really hurts! :)

Present Day. Present Time.

cyberia? i didn't want to be here.

10,000 yen? that's expensive! the market price is about 4,000yen.

although the supplier is the same.

to be exact, it's not a drug.

we call is "accela."

i... felt accelerated.

come on quickly.

Present Day. Present Time.

Present Day. Present Time.

no matter where, we are all connected.

Present Day. Present Time.

why don't you come here soon?

Present Day. Present Time.

have you ever seen the lain?

live monotony the rest of the life.

god bless you.

who are you?

Present Day. Present Time.

searching...

deleting...

Present Day. Present Time.

Present Day. Present Time.

you don't need to remain here.

Present Day. Present Time.

Present Day. Present Time.

it is not so suspicious to be called a memory.

but you are also here.

inconvenient body.

i am myself...

lain is lain...

i don't need to remain here.

think different.

..come...

a mind of love needs you.

..love needs you.

Present Day. Present Time.

lain lain lain Iwakara... Iwakara lain lain Iwakara lain... Iwakara? lain lain...

Present Day. Present Time.

all reset return

it has never happened if the memory is not here.

human's memory is just a record.

you can rewrite the record.

i might have a bit out of ourder with the "Present Day. Present Time."s but give me a break because i typed that.
this is the entire TEXT from Lain. and only the TEXT. think about it for a while... i will bring it up later.

3 foolish men[b]
Heart Havok: "Serial Experiments Lain covers some amazing ideals about the Human Memory."

That is definitely one of the eminent themes of the series.

Heart Havok: "this is an OAV, not a television series."

Actually, I'm certain that the series was broadcast on a weekly basis.
okay, please allow me to better my wording then. Serial Experiments Lain was first released as an OAV, then due to popular demand in Japan, they Broadcasted it on television, thus it is originally an OAV series. simply read old magazine articles and you will find this to be fact.
3 foolish men
Heart Havok: "thus, they are not saying that it happens in the overall range of 13days.... wouldn't they be saying that this ALL happens within the range of about 12hrs?"
first of all, i am just bringing up posibilities... though this one i feel most strongly about {as it pertains to the Memories part a bit}
3 foolish men
I don't get this... Even if the series had not been broadcast, how can you argue this point? I seem to recall(vaguely) that some account of passage of time was included within the series, such as weekends vs weekdays, seasonal events, etc.
okay... though i don't recall seasons, seasons are irrelivent. if you've read any of my past posts, my theory is indicating that Lain is altering this day. of course there will be differences, because it is being changed to alternate realities. as Lain is searching thru possible realities for something... physical Lain doesn't knw what though, thus she has to discover it. perhapse she is searching for herself. look at the TEXT that i had written above... she starts out unknowledgable, and then begins to understand more afound her... she then begins searching... what for though? maybe for herself. that would explain her own encounters with herself. but she is clearly searching.. look at how she pops in and out of "present day. present time"s so often. she is searching thru realities just as one may search for another thru a chat room... she countlessly tells her self she doens't need to be there, and there are a few where she doesn't give us any TEXT at all. with this TEXT, you can even notice that she builds character off of herself. she learns and expands just as any character would in development without anything more than this simple TEXT. and she is searching. eventually, she learns that she can search without moving thru the wired. she deletes as well, and we are brought back to "Present Day. Present Time" once again. it's all in the memory theory. she is alternating the realty of others, thus alternating the "Present Day. Present Time." she ending makes this most clear. just after Lain states that Memory can be rewritten, then we see a much older Arisu with the Teacher who now apears around her age. that is definitely Alternate if you ask me. the reason that this was brought to my attention was because in Film, it is traditional to use familiar scenes to let the audience know when they are at aspecific time. this is usually used when back tracking thru time. as in American Beauty, the opening scene is also the beginning to the Climax. this scene is recognizable so that you know when you are Present with the characters as opposed to the story that Spacey's character is telling. in Lain, it appears that they use this same thing in the opening so that we are knowlegable that it is a repeating day. it is AGAIN the "present day. present time." and in the all, they are screwing with our heads as well. maybe they thought they could even get this by us all... well, it appears if that's the case, then they are nearly succeeding. you can also tell that this replayed scene has been altered... same familiar everything except for the colour of the street light. that implies CHANGE. what has changed? the reality. "Present Day. Present Time." ..Different Circumstances. i'll do more brain storming as i am FINALLY off to watch Lain again...

adieu.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by Drizzten
The emphasis on memories and the power they have is one of the coolest aspects to SEL. If you can't remember something, then you can't relate to others who do remember it. You can't compare the past and the present. You can't judge someone or something relative to their prior behavior. "He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." I forget who said that, but it makes sense. Memories are powerful things, and the human brain isn't a perfect memory storage faciliy by any measure.
indeed. but Lain also brought along another main aspect... if you don't remember it, then how do you know it ever happened?

Originally posted by Drizzten
Lain re-writes the present by deleting the instances of her in the memories of others. It seemed to me that Life/Nature filled in the holes she left...when she left. :) Do you think she has the ability to add memories or just delete them and let the chips fall as they may? Obviously, everyone feels a unspoken and unexplainable connection to each other after Lain does the mass-deleting, kinda like deja vu. Do you think she left those residual memories in...or can she even touch the sub-conscious? Because they can't really place the faces, they don't say anything out loud to each other on the street to indicate recognizing or feeling something towards the people they see. Also, don't you think it's wierd that Arisu grows up and becomes a teacher, but the group of Cyberia kids, the MIB, the boy who shot himself and his sister, and Eiri stay the same age? Do you think Lain has that power to change things that dramatically? Or is it just limited to deleting conscious memories?
exactly what i was trying to point out earlier... Arisu is the only one who is really changed. Arisu is WITH her previous teacher of the past reality. Lain told Arisu that she would make it better for her. Lain changed the reality so that Arisu would be with the teacher. Lain also told Arisu that she loved her and would always be with her. Arisu remembers Lain from somewhere but doesn't know why... not a coinsidence, i don't think. do you remember? "Doki Doki. Doki Doki." a heartbeat. Lain said that she would stay with Arisu.

okay, too excited, i must post in other forums so i can o watch Lain again^^ adieu.

[ATh]

I will have to make this quick, as im up far too late and have to get up for work in a few hours.

Why dont i see this been a 12 hour period?

quite simple- The memories of each day have been uploaded into the wired, (both the real world wired, and the 'divine consciousness' wired) so even if the people have forgotten them, they have been recorded, as past, and as existing.

Therefore it existed and past, in otherwords 'it was'

and just as a stream is never the same, even if the same water were to flow down it, the hours that have past will never return.

Thats theory, in practise- the entire Arisu bit with altering memory takes place over a number of days -at least 3. Chisa killing herself- it took a number of weeks before the emails began arriving. Lain and her changing personality (well sort of- only Arisu mentions that she is returning to her former self) that occurs over a number of weeks.

Im not exactly sure what you want me to say. I have seen little evidence that supports linear time in reality, and im begining to come across lack of evidence to suggest that time is unidirectional in real life as well. I can go on about theory of memory and time, but it isnt all that related to SE:L. I could try and pull something together, but i would have to rewatch SE:L a few more times.

Im off to bed

ATh

[3foolishmen]

Drizzten: "don't you think it's wierd that Arisu grows up and becomes a teacher, but the group of Cyberia kids, the MIB, the boy who shot himself and his sister, and Eiri stay the same age?"

Judging from the scene framing, the flashbacks(re-flashforwards?) about the kids, MIB and Eiri are set in an earlier timeframe than the scene of Alice's (re)encounter with Lain. I don't see any conflict here.

HH: "this dam back button, i just lost the best post i've ever done"

We've all been there. I'm not sure of which button, but the browser-back-button-deleted-my-post in IE5 can be prevented by Internet Options->General->Settings->EveryTimeYouStartIE.

HH: "you didnt see the connections about memory that i did"

Maybe he did. Not to place words in ATh's mouth, but in my case, I did see the(some, at least...) points about memory made in SE:L. But the points were not valid, or at least methods to test them aren't yet available, in the realm of science. Since a lot of issues regarding memory raised in SE:L remain a part of pseudo-science, I therefore can't embrace them nor argue for them. It simply doesn't mesh with what I believe I know as fact.

I say this not to demean the questions regarding memory raised in SE:L. It certainly raises some intruiging questions, but these are more appropriate within the realm of philosophy and metaphysics. Just like you can't turn to religious dogma and creed as evidence to back up claims in Evangelion, you simply can't turn to science to back up claims in SE:L(duh... what kind of an obvious statement is that!?). So it could be that some people don't agree with how things work in SE:L. It's anime, as in fiction, obviously, but still the boundaries of the fiction/non-fiction are easy to confuse and cross.

HH: "It is originally an OAV series."

Oh, I see. ^^;

[3foolishmen]

HH: "did anyone notice that the Lain wears [her adorable TeddyBear Pajamas] when she appears to be troubled?"

It's not only her pajamas(bear suit?). I watched through the series looking for this and related symbols, and came up with a whole slew. There are her cuddly bear slippers, her cute bear mug, her fuzzy muzzy beret with bear ears, her sweetie knit-cap with the bear applique, and finally, her furry purry bear suit(bears don't purr, whatever).

Anyway, it seems like the teddy bear symbol represents Lain's naive, unburdened and "human" aspects. This doesn't do complete justice, I admit. It's hard to wrap the meaning of the symbol up in a couple of sentences and I wish I had the time to go through each instance the symbol is seen and what it means in the context. Alas, I don't. Anybody expand on this?

To HH: The script that you have, it's in English? Is it in print, or do you have it digitized? I'd appreciate it if you could share it with me.

[DrZepp]

ok everything is falling in to place for me. Havok, i COMPLETELY agree with your theory except for the thought that it took place in 12 hours (ill explain below when responding to ATH). in fact when i said on AIM that i also had some interesting thoughts about memory and such i was on the border of making a theory involving the intro. throughout the whole series i KNEW there was meaning to the into "present day, present time" and the same opening city scene, but i never could place my finger on it, you have just, in a sense, slapped me in the face with the answers i have been trying to get at. this theory fits my taste PERFECTLY its the kind of theory i love.

Thats theory, in practise- the entire Arisu bit with altering memory takes place over a number of days -at least 3. Chisa killing herself- it took a number of weeks before the emails began arriving. Lain and her changing personality (well sort of- only Arisu mentions that she is returning to her former self) that occurs over a number of weeks.

this could be explained by lain staying in the reality she created for more than one day or week. she could have stayed in them as long as she wanted but thats almost irrelivant. the thing that is important is that the episodes could have just been a fresh start, a new reality. now what i want to do is pinpoint where each new rality begins and where it ends, then scramble them up and see if the overall flow of things still make sense. also this would explain what happened to Mika. lain created a reality without her. just watch the scene where she sees lain in the street and it makes more sense. in a way my old theory could be correct, mika might have been the first to merge between the real world and wired, mika became like lain, she was present in the subconcious, a thought in the back of your mind but nothing more. this is evident when lain sees the, i guess "true" mika shifting between what seems to be the wired and real world, literally. how i could explain mika being mixed between the real world and wired could be this: maybe the place where they are merged is nothing, or it is possibly like death, you exist in the subconsiouc of all those who remember you, this is what happens to lain in the end. maybe that is the merging of the wired and real world. also perhaps lain could not create death when she altered memory or reality, maybe she altered everyones thoughts of mika, thoughts of what she is like, of her personality and such. this would explain why all of mika that is left for a couple episodes is an empty shell. this also brings up the timeless question "do you really exist if no one remembers you"


eitherway, i don't know what's going on with Chisa, but i CERTAINLY am sure that you don't have to be an "application" or whatever tobe in the wired. Arisu mentioned seeing Lain in the Wired. that one boy mentions seeing her in the Wired. i've already given some other examples in previous posts. overall, Arisu... are you saying that she must be an Application of some sort as well?

i was saying more along the lines of, if arisu (thats alice right, sorry only seen it once) was to die in the real world could she live in the wired without being an "application" because chisa died. anyone can exist in the wired if they are alive, but can they after death. i am starting to think they could.

[ATh]

Well you can get the scripts here, this is where i got mine

this is the front page

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Gulf/9755/



And the scripts start here

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Gulf/9755/scripts.html


ATh

[Drizzten]

Since we never see Lain's house and the adjacent streets until after the physical death of Chisa, I can't say whether or not those wierd red/blue blood splatter-like patterns were always in the shadows. What do you guys think they are? At some times they move, like there's a portal to something happening below. I don't think they appear anywhere else, except for the school hallway (going on memory here :) ).

I thought the Cheshire Cat character was pretty interesting. I really liked his stance on his power, how his manifestation limit is just a mouth. In fact, all the representaions of RL people were perfect. You never see their faces, just the parts that are used for communicating. They have bodies, but no faces. (Lain has a full set of "physical" features in the Wired...."features" like a fully complete package/God?...or can we see her in whole because we view her through another Lain's perspective?) It's hard to ID anyone on the Wired, since others can masquerade as you.

[ATh]

Originally posted by Drizzten


I thought the Cheshire Cat character was pretty interesting. I really liked his stance on his power, how his manifestation limit is just a mouth. In fact, all the representaions of RL people were perfect. You never see their faces, just the parts that are used for communicating

Yes Alice's Adventure's in Wonderland is a remarkable book, though the second part, Through the looking glass is far superior in whit and humour. As for the Cheshire Cat, he says that most people can only manifest ears, implying that unlike the others he is willing to give out information, not just take it.

It is also interesting that the only reward he expects is that Lain remember that he helped her. I take this as an implication that apart from the Knights, there are others in the Wired that also have knowledge of Lains status.

I have not read Alice's Adventures in Wonderland in some time, but if i recall, the Cheshire Cat was helpful to Alice, and yet at the same time he was not (aloof comes to mind)

Im thinking it would be interesting to look at the characters in the above mentioned story and relate it to SE:L. If we keep Alice as Alice/Arisu , then Lain herself does have the many faces of the Rabbit, the Madhatter, The Queen of Hearts (though this is interesting as the main character is not the main character Alice being Alice and Lain being the enviroment in all its oddity)

ATh

[heart havok]

okay, sorry i've been gone, i was watching Lain again. first of all, i must correct myself, for my wording was not clear enough at all to as what i meant.

with the "Present Day. Present Time." theory.... my words were not portraying what i was thinking at all.

you have my apologies, and here are my corrections....

it's not that the ENTIRE series is within the same 12-24hrs, but rather that we are restarting back at the same day every time we see "Present Day. Present Time."

yes, they state that it was a WEEK after Chisa had commited suicide that the students began recieving the e-mails from her. and we follow along WEIRD completely until "Present Day. Present Time." then physically, we are restarting that elapse of time. yes, of COURSE the time has passed, and of course information and knowledge, memories and realities have gone by... but the physical is once again the restart of the same place we first see "Present Day. Present Time."

it's very difficult to explain this theory without guiding you thru the episodes as well, but maybe i can help. eitherway, i'm not saying that no time goes by, but i am saying that the physical aspect of it all is restarting. day and time are the same, though information, knowledge, memory, and basically what's mental is continuing to hold its place.


now, some of you may remember reading about "filters".... 3foolishmen, you should particularly like this part... well... in Serial Experiments Lain, they DO talk about the filters. however, they call it something different....

If you can hear it, it is talking to you.
If you can see it, it is your.... DISTORTION LAYER:05

in this episode, they speak of the Distortion being your physical "filters" in fact, i think this is mostly clear when Lain is sitting in her room talking to her "mother's" floating body.

i had aLOT more to say about Serial Experiments Lain, but i will have to read more and then come back.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by 3foolishmen
HH: "this dam back button, i just lost the best post i've ever done"

We've all been there. I'm not sure of which button, but the browser-back-button-deleted-my-post in IE5 can be prevented by Internet Options->General->Settings->EveryTimeYouStartIE.
actually, i just followed that, and it's already done. unfortunately, the browser still ----- up every now and then... oh well.. i will just start typing long replies in Notebook. oh wait, i'm not right now... -_- i suppose i'll just take mychances then... because my settings are correct... eitherway, i abled EveryTimeYouStartIE again anyways so maybe it will work now.. who knows.

Originally posted by 3foolishmen
HH: "you didnt see the connections about memory that i did"

Maybe he did. Not to place words in ATh's mouth, but in my case, I did see the(some, at least...) points about memory made in SE:L. But the points were not valid, or at least methods to test them aren't yet available, in the realm of science. Since a lot of issues regarding memory raised in SE:L remain a part of pseudo-science, I therefore can't embrace them nor argue for them. It simply doesn't mesh with what I believe I know as fact.
oh yeah, of course they can't even be explored by science yet, but that doesn't mean they can't yet be explored.

Originally posted by 3foolishmen
I say this not to demean the questions regarding memory raised in SE:L. It certainly raises some intruiging questions, but these are more appropriate within the realm of philosophy and metaphysics. Just like you can't turn to religious dogma and creed as evidence to back up claims in Evangelion, you simply can't turn to science to back up claims in SE:L(duh... what kind of an obvious statement is that!?). So it could be that some people don't agree with how things work in SE:L. It's anime, as in fiction, obviously, but still the boundaries of the fiction/non-fiction are easy to confuse and cross.
:lol:
eitherway... yeah, of course it is fiction, but just because something is not known as fact doesnot make it truly fiction.especially with dealing with something like memory. i personally feel that Memory is not studied enough. and i must say that it is one of the most intriguing of the unexplainable.. to me atleast. my favourite is that... "if you don't remember it, then how do you know it really happend?" yeah, of course there are a few laws to this theory... like of course if SOME remembers it then it happened. or if it is documented... but then again, some people lie and twist things, a sometimes documentation isn't correct either {infornography}... so HOW DO you really know whether or not it really happened?


and sorry about all the different posts, but i've missed too much, and i'm trying not to write one long one, so i'm typing indevidual ones... i hope that doesn't bother anyone.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by DrZepp
ok everything is falling in to place for me. Havok, i COMPLETELY agree with your theory except for the thought that it took place in 12 hours (ill explain below when responding to ATH). in fact when i said on AIM that i also had some interesting thoughts about memory and such i was on the border of making a theory involving the intro. throughout the whole series i KNEW there was meaning to the into "present day, present time" and the same opening city scene, but i never could place my finger on it, you have just, in a sense, slapped me in the face with the answers i have been trying to get at. this theory fits my taste PERFECTLY its the kind of theory i love.
well, i understand that it was incorrect of me to say that it was the same days... and i have corrected myself now after watching it again^^

Originally posted by DrZepp
Thats theory, in practise- the entire Arisu bit with altering memory takes place over a number of days -at least 3. Chisa killing herself- it took a number of weeks before the emails began arriving. Lain and her changing personality (well sort of- only Arisu mentions that she is returning to her former self) that occurs over a number of weeks.

this could be explained by lain staying in the reality she created for more than one day or week. she could have stayed in them as long as she wanted but thats almost irrelivant. the thing that is important is that the episodes could have just been a fresh start, a new reality. now what i want to do is pinpoint where each new rality begins and where it ends, then scramble them up and see if the overall flow of things still make sense. also this would explain what happened to Mika. lain created a reality without her. just watch the scene where she sees lain in the street and it makes more sense. in a way my old theory could be correct, mika might have been the first to merge between the real world and wired, mika became like lain, she was present in the subconcious, a thought in the back of your mind but nothing more. this is evident when lain sees the, i guess "true" mika shifting between what seems to be the wired and real world, literally. how i could explain mika being mixed between the real world and wired could be this: maybe the place where they are merged is nothing, or it is possibly like death, you exist in the subconsiouc of all those who remember you, this is what happens to lain in the end. maybe that is the merging of the wired and real world. also perhaps lain could not create death when she altered memory or reality, maybe she altered everyones thoughts of mika, thoughts of what she is like, of her personality and such. this would explain why all of mika that is left for a couple episodes is an empty shell. this also brings up the timeless question "do you really exist if no one remembers you"
damn, you just explained my own theory {in practice} to me better than i could ever imagine. i certainly see how you can "back up" your Knights theory {in practice^^} with Mika now though... and that is much more clear to me now^^ however, i don't think anyone's giving enough to Mika by the idea that she recieves the hand cleaner towel that says "if too many occupy the other side, the dead will have nowhere to go." something like that. this would even uphold your theory, DrZepp on the idea that maybe Mika died... maybe she did die... and there was no room in the wired left for her {and others, i'm sure}. then again, it is clear {to me} that she lived in the wired and the "real world" at the same time... thus MIKAwired {just giving a Label} freaking out and seeing Lain in the street... and the MIKAreal is later walking by the hallway and "sees" MIKAwired. Lain sees this also... but she sees MIKAwired as the "shifting faces"... maybe this is implying death. then again, maybe there's more to this "Prophecy" that Mika must "fullfil"... she is haunted by the words "fullfil the Prophecy"... so what is it that these words are telling her to fullfil.. and why? the Doll in DISTORTION..

Lain
Tell me a story.

Lain
Please, Please. Tell me... a story.

Doll
Which story do you want, Lain?

Lain
Well... Well... Something I don't know.

Doll
What you don't know is what does not exist. I can't tell a story which does not exist. You know that, don't you? Well, how about this? There is a prophecy before every event. Only when the prophecy is there, the event will occur.


Originally posted by DrZepp
eitherway, i don't know what's going on with Chisa, but i CERTAINLY am sure that you don't have to be an "application" or whatever tobe in the wired. Arisu mentioned seeing Lain in the Wired. that one boy mentions seeing her in the Wired. i've already given some other examples in previous posts. overall, Arisu... are you saying that she must be an Application of some sort as well?

i was saying more along the lines of, if arisu (thats alice right, sorry only seen it once) was to die in the real world could she live in the wired without being an "application" because chisa died. anyone can exist in the wired if they are alive, but can they after death. i am starting to think they could.
well, looking back to the handwhipe that Mika gets... "if too many occupy the other side, the dead will have nowhere to go." ..then yes, it seems to be stating that those who die go to the wired... though my... mind... just ... went... blank....

...

[heart havok]

Originally posted by ATh
Originally posted by Drizzten


I thought the Cheshire Cat character was pretty interesting. I really liked his stance on his power, how his manifestation limit is just a mouth. In fact, all the representaions of RL people were perfect. You never see their faces, just the parts that are used for communicating

Yes Alice's Adventure's in Wonderland is a remarkable book, though the second part, Through the looking glass is far superior in whit and humour. As for the Cheshire Cat, he says that most people can only manifest ears, implying that unlike the others he is willing to give out information, not just take it.

It is also interesting that the only reward he expects is that Lain remember that he helped her. I take this as an implication that apart from the Knights, there are others in the Wired that also have knowledge of Lains status.

I have not read Alice's Adventures in Wonderland in some time, but if i recall, the Cheshire Cat was helpful to Alice, and yet at the same time he was not (aloof comes to mind)

Im thinking it would be interesting to look at the characters in the above mentioned story and relate it to SE:L. If we keep Alice as Alice/Arisu , then Lain herself does have the many faces of the Rabbit, the Madhatter, The Queen of Hearts (though this is interesting as the main character is not the main character Alice being Alice and Lain being the enviroment in all its oddity)

indeed... though i don't think it is as related as you may be implying, i do atleast see that bit of connection. you'll certainly have to let us know if you find anything as you look deeper into this idea.

the Cheshire Cat seemed more excited about telling others that he helped Lain rather than HER in particular remembering it. just that he helped someone with such a reputation...

the SHADOWS though... those i completely love. if nothing, for the artistic quality of condrast between the blind white sky and the colour within the black shadows.

[heart havok]

Originally posted by ATh
Originally posted by Drizzten


I thought the Cheshire Cat character was pretty interesting. I really liked his stance on his power, how his manifestation limit is just a mouth. In fact, all the representaions of RL people were perfect. You never see their faces, just the parts that are used for communicating

Yes Alice's Adventure's in Wonderland is a remarkable book, though the second part, Through the looking glass is far superior in whit and humour. As for the Cheshire Cat, he says that most people can only manifest ears, implying that unlike the others he is willing to give out information, not just take it.

It is also interesting that the only reward he expects is that Lain remember that he helped her. I take this as an implication that apart from the Knights, there are others in the Wired that also have knowledge of Lains status.

I have not read Alice's Adventures in Wonderland in some time, but if i recall, the Cheshire Cat was helpful to Alice, and yet at the same time he was not (aloof comes to mind)

Im thinking it would be interesting to look at the characters in the above mentioned story and relate it to SE:L. If we keep Alice as Alice/Arisu , then Lain herself does have the many faces of the Rabbit, the Madhatter, The Queen of Hearts (though this is interesting as the main character is not the main character Alice being Alice and Lain being the enviroment in all its oddity)

indeed... though i don't think it is as related as you may be implying, i do atleast see that bit of connection. you'll certainly have to let us know if you find anything as you look deeper into this idea.

the Cheshire Cat seemed more excited about telling others that he helped Lain rather than HER in particular remembering it. just that he helped someone with such a reputation...

the SHADOWS though... those i completely love. if nothing, for the artistic quality of condrast between the blind white sky and the colour within the black shadows.

well, my mind has used all of its energy now... so i am going to retire from this thread for the time being.

oh, by the way, about the scripts, they are not digitized, but i was already offering someone earlier to type them up for him if he like. but those scripts that ATh has linked us to appear just fine... only much less organized, and no narrations.


phew... Adieu.

[heart havok]

okay, do you guys know how much time i spent writing those replies to you all? i am bumping this thread up again... please... someone... reply... :( i am dying here... i need more discussion on Serial Experiments Lain.

[DrZepp]

ok here are some theorys in their early stages, i am going to post again after i rewatch lain so i can see how wrong i am.
the knights mixed a preschool game of tag with an action type game, now notice that most of the people who died were the people from the action game. wouldnt it make more sense that the preschool kids would be shot, i know that Tato killed one, but all the others who died (note on the news they reported them as suicides) were being highly intimidated by the preschool children. first of all i am not 100% sure that the older people killed were part of the action game that got mixed with the tag game but if they were why would they be so intimidated by a young girl. if in fact the knights did set up the mixing of the games and lain has nothing to do with the knights, then why does lain appear right before the men "kill themselves" this could possibly be because lain is in the wired at all times but why would she be interferring with the knights, (by the way, is lain in the wired at all times. if she is why doesnt she know the identitys of the knights right off.... or does she) anyway you these people see lain before they die, take for example the guy who was on accela, it appears lain convinced him do kill himself. ok, lain in the real world went to cyberia, the guy i think recognized her from the wired, but then it appears that lain wired actually becomes present in the real world. this leads me to believe that lain can shift back and forth between real world and wired as she pleases, in a sense lain is the merging of the real world and wired. now there is the possibility that the guy saw lain wired in his mind. when i first watched lain one of my questions was "what real signifigance did accela play" this is just a random theory, but possibly accela was created to "merge"(maybe) the mind between the real and wired worlds. i think of this because i was wondering "how is this man influenced by lain wired, if it is in the real world?" this may also support havoks theory that lain is constantly altering reality. perhaps the knights made accela, i dont know i am going to rewatch lain right now. i am waiting for this post to be torn to peices, please be gentle...hehe

[heart havok]

from the wondering mind of DrZepp
ok here are some theorys in their early stages, i am going to post again after i rewatch lain so i can see how wrong i am.
hey, anything is possible.

from the wondering mind of DrZepp
the knights mixed a preschool game of tag with an action type game, now notice that most of the people who died were the people from the action game.
actually, there were about three {maybe four} different "groups" of people who died...
the people who commited suicide... Chisa, Guy with Gun, Train girl, etc...
the people who commited suicide and were involved with Phantoma
the little kids who were involved with the Tag Game
the Knights who were killed by the MIBs


from the wondering mind of DrZepp
wouldnt it make more sense that the preschool kids would be shot, i know that Tato killed one,
i remember the little Hissing Girl getting shot. Taro never killed anyone.

from the wondering mind of DrZepp
but all the others who died (note on the news they reported them as suicides) were being highly intimidated by the preschool children. first of all i am not 100% sure that the older people killed were part of the action game that got mixed with the tag game but if they were why would they be so intimidated by a young girl.
maybe it's just me, but if i see some scary looking Preschooler chasing after me with no eyes, or chasing after me while hissing, i am going to feel very uncomfortable with the idea of her catching up to me.

from the wondering mind of DrZepp
if in fact the knights did set up the mixing of the games and lain has nothing to do with the knights, then why does lain appear right before the men "kill themselves" this could possibly be because lain is in the wired at all times but why would she be interferring with the knights, (by the way, is lain in the wired at all times. if she is why doesnt she know the identitys of the knights right off.... or does she)
you must remember, there IS LAIN and LAINwired... LAINwired is a watcher. i believe she is simply observing these things going on in the wired.

from the wondering mind of DrZepp
anyway you these people see lain before they die, take for example the guy who was on accela, it appears lain convinced him do kill himself. ok, lain in the real world went to cyberia, the guy i think recognized her from the wired,
yes, he recognized her as LAINwired... he spoke to her thinking she was LAINwired.

from the wondering mind of DrZepp
but then it appears that lain wired actually becomes present in the real world. this leads me to believe that lain can shift back and forth between real world and wired as she pleases, in a sense lain is the merging of the real world and wired. now there is the possibility that the guy saw lain wired in his mind. when i first watched lain one of my questions was "what real signifigance did accela play" this is just a random theory, but possibly accela was created to "merge"(maybe) the mind between the real and wired worlds.
actually... they explain Accela that all it does is alter the Brain so that it processes and works faster.

from the wondering mind of DrZepp
i think of this because i was wondering "how is this man influenced by lain wired, if it is in the real world?" this may also support havoks theory that lain is constantly altering reality. perhaps the knights made accela, i dont know i am going to rewatch lain right now. i am waiting for this post to be torn to peices, please be gentle...hehe

your idea of the Knights making Accela is very interesting to me... please share anything if you find anything. i;m thinking i will watch Lain again too^^ later though. enjoy! adieu.

[ATh]

Well there aer 2 organisations interested in Lain,

The Knights, and the T..something or other corperation.

The knights are shown repeatedly to make illegal stuff- the Psychechip ect.. as well as suppling their members and Lain with new hardware.

Accela seems to fit in with this trend.

ATh

[heart havok]

A________T________h
Well there aer 2 organisations interested in Lain,

The Knights, and the T..something or other corperation.

The knights are shown repeatedly to make illegal stuff- the Psychechip ect.. as well as suppling their members and Lain with new hardware.
then was Lain's father one of the Knights? he supplied her with hardware!!^^ :goof:

:( sorry.. i couldn't help it.

A________T________h
Accela seems to fit in with this trend.
indeed.

[Drizzten]

Originally posted by ATh
Well there aer 2 organisations interested in Lain,

The Knights, and the T..something or other corperation.
Would that be Tachibana? The makers of Lain's Navi?

[Drizzten]

Check out the Contact Admin Forum here http://animeboards.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6847&pagenumber=2 Eva2000 is granting us a Lain forum after the move! :up: :B:

[heart havok]

yeah, i saw it!!!! YAY!!!!! all thanks to our great minds, and my awsome Sig!!! now go the the thread in my new Sig, and help me to promote my most meaningful post that i've ever written! titled after an infamous line from Se:LAIN just in honour of Eva2000's desision to grant us our forum!

[DrZepp]

ok, when the people who made lain made it, what do you think the main thing they were trying to get across to the veiwer was.






::this is basically just moving the thread up so more people can discuss::

[Drizzten]

"Take a closer look into your surroundings. Don't let anything be taken for granted. You exist because people know and remember you. Technology is liberating."

In the briefest of nutshells. I don't have time for a concise post...:heh:

[Drizzten]

Gotta bring this back onto our radar...