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View Full Version : Why oh why! (spoilers)


Lengis
06-08-2004, 07:41 PM
Does Ayata end up with Haruka and not Megumi! Megumi is about a 10 out of 10 on the cute scale. Haruka is chubby, and wears an unattractive headband, and she's like 30.... Can you say...... BUSTED!

And why did Asahina die?! They had to kill off the 2nd most cute girl in the whole anime too? They should have just had Ayata end up with both of the cute girls at once (they can get away with a 30 year old with a 17 year old, why not this?). But no, they made him end up with a Rossanne wannabe :(. Sure she was alright when she was young, but age was not kind to her by any means. :(

GetterRobo
24-05-2006, 05:41 PM
DUDE, you don't get it....

Ayata and Haruka had been in love for like 10 years(plus or minus on their different time scales)

I think of Rahxephon as Evangelion. Shinji kinda ended up with Misato(EoE... He kisses her....)

Unlikely Fan
15-07-2006, 12:02 PM
Ayato ended up with Haruka because like Getter said, they had been in love way back in the day. The time dif. in Tokyo-Jupiter vs. the rest of the world accounts for their physically different ages. If you recall, Ayato had been brainwashed/drugged to forget anything about Haruka so he didn't remember her at all. The only problem that I have with the Ayato/Haruka thing is that Ayato chooses to remake the world to make him happy; (THINK: Shinji accepting Instrumentality) Ayato ran away at the very end instead of facing the world as it is. That's a large part of why I DIDN'T like the ending.

Asahina died because the bodies/minds/souls of the Instrumentalists are irrevocably tied to their dolems/RahXephons. Ayato didn't know that he was fighting Asahina's Dolem until he had already killed it.

GetterRobo: Shinji ended up with Asuka! Look at the last scene when their on the beach! But now I'm speaking off-topic.

Merlion Emrys
02-08-2006, 11:31 PM
. The only problem that I have with the Ayato/Haruka thing is that Ayato chooses to remake the world to make him happy; (THINK: Shinji accepting Instrumentality) Ayato ran away at the very end instead of facing the world as it is. That's a large part of why I DIDN'T like the ending.
.


I'm not sure I agree it was just to make him happy. I think he wanted to undo the pain and suffering they had all felt, and to restore those that had died (including some that he basically if unintentionally killed himself when he first merged with the RahXephon).

I think it could easily be seen as repairing as much or more than running away.

Unlikely Fan
03-08-2006, 08:21 PM
I think it could easily be seen as repairing as much or more than running away.

But the fact that he chose to change the way things are in order to make everybody happy is running away in of itself. Shinji rejects Instrumentality because it's not real, Ayato should have done the same thing because his world wasn't real either.

Merlion Emrys
05-08-2006, 02:36 AM
But the fact that he chose to change the way things are in order to make everybody happy is running away in of itself. Shinji rejects Instrumentality because it's not real, Ayato should have done the same thing because his world wasn't real either.



1) to me, restoring life or reversing injury that is caused either by evil, or be unknowing confusion and discord isnt "making everyone happy" in some superficial way, its undoing things that never should have happened, and healing hurts.

2) what makes you think "Ayato's world" wasnt reall? Or that it was in fact "ayato's world"? Same thing for Instrumentality...Instrumentality was 100% totally and completely real, it just wasnt a real solution to the problem (in that case, it basically wasnt a real solutation to all of humanities problems) and Shinji discovered that it (which is to say, no longer having seperate people and the potential for pain that that creates) was not in fact what he wanted. It had nothing to do with "realness"

Getting back to RahXephon, Ayato did not (or at least I dont see that it is implied that he did) create his own little world where everything was how he wanted it, he altered the world that existed. He undid some of the things that happened, either by altering the present directly, or by altering the past and through it, the present.


Also bear in mind that both the Tuning and Instrumentality were powerful world-changing events that were going to happen one way or the other. If Ayato had not taken control of the Tuning, it simply would have been under Quon's control...and I dont really believe either of them, once merged with their Xephons, could have simply rejected the idea of a Tuning entirely and had nothing change at all.

Likewise, Shinji simply wrested...or was given by Rei/Lilith...control over Instrumentality from his father, and finally choose to reject it, at least for himself, not because it "wasnt real", which it was, but because he realized it was not what he wanted

Unlikely Fan
09-08-2006, 09:42 PM
1) to me, restoring life or reversing injury that is caused either by evil, or be unknowing confusion and discord isnt "making everyone happy" in some superficial way, its undoing things that never should have happened, and healing hurts.

1.) Undoing things that never should have been done is cowardly in of itself. If we as humans choose to run away from pain or change it, then we can never learn from it. Pain is not something to be avoided, pain is caused by living our lives.

2) what makes you think "Ayato's world" wasnt reall? Or that it was in fact "ayato's world"? Same thing for Instrumentality...Instrumentality was 100% totally and completely real, it just wasnt a real solution to the problem (in that case, it basically wasnt a real solutation to all of humanities problems) and Shinji discovered that it (which is to say, no longer having seperate people and the potential for pain that that creates) was not in fact what he wanted. It had nothing to do with "realness"

2.) Ayato's world and the world of Instrumentality aren't real in the sense that they are "fake." Yes they do physically exist, but I guess it's one of those "something doesn't feel right" kinda deals. I think that here you're saying what I was saying in a different way.

Getting back to RahXephon, Ayato did not (or at least I dont see that it is implied that he did) create his own little world where everything was how he wanted it, he altered the world that existed. He undid some of the things that happened, either by altering the present directly, or by altering the past and through it, the present.

But this WAS what Ayato wanted. He wanted a real family, real relationships, there was no fault in this world through his eyes (which is VERY selfish).

Also bear in mind that both the Tuning and Instrumentality were powerful world-changing events that were going to happen one way or the other. If Ayato had not taken control of the Tuning, it simply would have been under Quon's control...and I dont really believe either of them, once merged with their Xephons, could have simply rejected the idea of a Tuning entirely and had nothing change at all.

Did Tuning and Instrumentality have to take place though? Why could Ayato not reject Tuning instead of making his perfect fantasy world with everything he ever wanted.

Likewise, Shinji simply wrested...or was given by Rei/Lilith...control over Instrumentality from his father, and finally choose to reject it, at least for himself, not because it "wasnt real", which it was, but because he realized it was not what he wanted

Here again we argue the same point. I mean that Instrumentality wasn't real in the sense that it doesn't feel right and this isn't how it's supposed to be.

Merlion Emrys
10-08-2006, 05:11 PM
Undoing things that never should have been done is cowardly in of itself. If we as humans choose to run away from pain or change it, then we can never learn from it. Pain is not something to be avoided, pain is caused by living our lives


My mother just had foot surgery to remove the bunyons on one of her feet, which have been hurting her for years.

I guess that makes her a coward in your estimation right?

I understand that probably isnt quite what you mean, but it is the inevitable conclusion of what you are saying, in this context.

Fixing, removing, or preventing pain/misfortune isnt the same as running away from it. And if you feel they are, that means no one should ever use painkillers, or ever make any effort to repair physical ills or pains, or emotional ones, or to better there situations in any way, as that would be running away too.



Ayato's world and the world of Instrumentality aren't real in the sense that they are "fake." Yes they do physically exist, but I guess it's one of those "something doesn't feel right" kinda deals. I think that here you're saying what I was saying in a different way.


No, I think its just your opinion that they are "fake" or that "something doesnt feel right." you are of course entitled to that opinion, but it isnt supported by or the intention of the story itself...its just your interpretation of are part of the story that you simply dislike.



But this WAS what Ayato wanted. He wanted a real family, real relationships, there was no fault in this world through his eyes (which is VERY selfish).


Ok this is much the same as above. Its selfish to want a family? How so?

And yes there was fault. He undid the death and destruction that had been done (which parts and how much is debateable) but there is no indication that he changed anything else or made a "perfect world" as you seem to be saying. Disease, murder, poverty still exist, and I doubt that Ayato was able to make himself permanently immune to misfortune. Some or all of what was done was undone, no more.



Did Tuning and Instrumentality have to take place though? Why could Ayato not reject Tuning instead of making his perfect fantasy world with everything he ever wanted.


See above. the story itself, in both cases, says absolutely nothing about a "perfect fantasy world." that is your creation/opinion/idea, nothing more. Especially in the case of Instrumentality, which Shinji REJECTED and thereby gave everyone else the choice to reject or not.



You just seem to have a very, very unusual definition of things like selfishness, running away, perfection and cowardice, which you are projecting onto the stories and characters. And of course we all do that to some extent, and your certainly entitled to your opinions and interpretations. However, they are coming from a viewpoint that is radically different from that of pretty much anyone I've ever spoken to, and are not particularly well supported by the actual events and dialogue in the shows.

I see both Ayato and Shinji as heroes...not quite in the typical way as far as there overall depiction, but they are both character who could, would and did put others above themselves, and who finally had the will to turn away from the control of others and decide for themselves the best course of action, and act upon that decision.

Unlikely Fan
12-08-2006, 01:55 PM
As far as my point about pain, you're skewing my words. I'm saying that pain teaches us lessons, and only through suffering can man learn to be happy. I'm not saying that you need to inflict self-mutilation, not take pain-killers, or anything masochistic.

My point about Ayato is that he is choosing to ignore reality and what has already happened in favor of what HE personally wants. Ayato and Shinji are two figures from the same mold, but I can respect what Shinji did because he took other people into consideration when he rejected Instrumentality. Ayato, on the other hand, remakes the world to a point that he finds closure and protection. In short, Ayato ran away from reality. This isn't to say that he created a perfect world, he made a world where he was satisfied.

Now granted, some things in the world happended that shouldn't have; that still gives no justification for ONE person to decide to reshape the world. I would admire Ayato a great deal more if he would have said: "yeah, that sucks about what the Mu did...all the killing, and destruction; but it's time to move on," instead of changing things.

I know I've come across sounding overly-negative about the whole series. I really do like it, I just don't like the way it ended. I probably have drawn too heavily from Evangelion in my comparison, but hey...it's all fun.

Oh, and Merlion...what part of Georgia are you from? PM me if you don't want to publicly answer.

Westlo
12-08-2006, 03:08 PM
The tuning of the world was in the makings for thousands of years, if Ayato didn't Tune the world than Quon would have. He merged both worlds together, made things like how it would've been if the Mu didn't invade. He saved billions of lives and yet you call it selfish? His good intentions + Quon's love for him made her give up in the RahXephon struggle for who would tune the world.

Unlikely Fan
12-08-2006, 06:18 PM
The tuning of the world was in the makings for thousands of years, if Ayato didn't Tune the world than Quon would have. He merged both worlds together, made things like how it would've been if the Mu didn't invade. He saved billions of lives and yet you call it selfish? His good intentions + Quon's love for him made her give up in the RahXephon struggle for who would tune the world.

Hmmmm...Never have quite thought about it in those terms. The only problem I have is why did Tuning have to take place?

Merlion Emrys
12-08-2006, 09:16 PM
Hmmmm...Never have quite thought about it in those terms. The only problem I have is why did Tuning have to take place?



Depends on who you ask. According to the movie version, the Universe cant handle the existence of both our world and the Mu world, so one or the other had to go.

But mostly, Bahbem was making sure that the Tuning would take place. Thing is, Ayato and Quon saw to it that it didnt take plac as he wanted it to.


I'm saying that pain teaches us lessons, and only through suffering can man learn to be happy. I'm not saying that you need to inflict self-mutilation, not take pain-killers, or anything masochistic.


As I said, I know that isnt what you meant, but it was the conclusion of what you were saying (that you mustn't try to avoid pain).



My point about Ayato is that he is choosing to ignore reality and what has already happened in favor of what HE personally wants


No, he CHANGED reality to undo negative things that had been done, both to himself and others.



Ayato and Shinji are two figures from the same mold, but I can respect what Shinji did because he took other people into consideration when he rejected Instrumentality. Ayato, on the other hand, remakes the world to a point that he finds closure and protection


But so does everyone else. I would think the people who died at the hands of the RahXephon (such as Soichi(sp)) were probably especially happy with what he did.



In short, Ayato ran away from reality


No...this is where we keep having issue. He didn't RUN AWAY from anything. He CHANGED reality. Just like painkillers change reality. Now yes it was on a much more massive scale, because he had access to the power of the RahXephon, but thats my point...what he did was no different from the many ways in which we all change things to undo, redress or avoid pain, death or misfortune all the time, just more extreme because it is a fantasy story were a relatively ordinary person can access the ability to alter reality on a massive scale. There was however no running away of any kind.



This isn't to say that he created a perfect world, he made a world where he was satisfied.


Along with everyone else (accept the villains)


Now granted, some things in the world happended that shouldn't have; that still gives no justification for ONE person to decide to reshape the world


Pretty much par for the course for anime. And it wasnt really one person...the circumstances were created by Bahbem and carried forth by Haruka, Ayato and Quon, and others. We dont get to see inside Ayato's head while its going on; I think he very much had the needs of others in mind.



I would admire Ayato a great deal more if he would have said: "yeah, that sucks about what the Mu did...all the killing, and destruction; but it's time to move on," instead of changing things.


1) changing the world was the whole point of the Tuning, and once he had attained Yolteotel and merged with Ixtli I'm not sure Ayato really had the option of simply rejected it entirely; and if he had, it simply would have been Quon doing it. Also it is hinted in the series, and stated in the movie that the Tuning is neccesary or both worlds will be destroyed.

2) if given a chance to safely undo all the needless harm, pain and death that was done by the Mu (or even in the short time of the two Olen's attaining Yolteotel), why on earth would anyone with any sort of compassion pass up that chance and leave all those people, that they themselves inadvertantly killed, dead?


This all seems to hinge on your belief that Ayato's actions were totally selfish and done solely to satisfy his own wants. I just have no idea where you are getting that notion.



I know I've come across sounding overly-negative about the whole series. I really do like it, I just don't like the way it ended. I probably have drawn too heavily from Evangelion in my comparison, but hey...it's all fun.


I dont really care for the ending itself either. In many ways, its explained LESS than the end of Eva.


Oh, and Merlion...what part of Georgia are you from? PM me if you don't want to publicly answer.

Northwest.

Unlikely Fan
13-08-2006, 09:56 PM
I'm from Oakwood myself, two miles outside of Gainesville.

Kusunagi
15-08-2006, 01:33 PM
Yeha they were just meant to b... Sobs