it wasn't viscious enough.

[BigShot Jordan]

this is probably my only rant for Cowboy Bebop.They didn't show Viscious enough in the series.He was in Ballad of Fallen Angels,Jupiter Jazz,and The Real Folk Blues.That's only 5 episodes out of 26.

Viscious was just to cool of a villian to be shown that little.

Anyone agree?


see you space cowboys.

[Hybrid]

Im getting all of cowboy bebop soon. And vicious looks dopified to the max. I really hope he gets some good airtime. But it sounds like he is a scarcity. *sigh*

[Constantine Dragomirov]

The reason why Vicious appears so rarely is because CB is not a mega-plot series with a fixed set of archvillains, but rather a mix of episodes loosely linked by several mega-plot-points. Each episode is supposed to be independent, with its own villain (i.e. "bounty"). This reminds of older (anime and not) TV series, adding to the feel of nostalgia for the old fans perhaps?

It was either 1-2 extremely cool adversaries for the whole 26 eps, or a variety of fun and very different personae with the lead antagonist appearing only for a few times. I believe the creators intended Bebop to be as wide & diverse as possible, fitting an entire universe into the rather short span, so they had to sacrifice Vicious' airtime... I'm not sure whether I approve of that strategy - probably not, but then again, it's their show.

[PsychoGoatee]

The fact that Vicious is only in a handful of episodes is what makes him so mysterious and cool. Kenshin's master Hiko and Vicious are two of my favorite characters, and they both are in their respective series for only a handful of episodes. Although at first I thought "I need to see more of them!", I later realized that they would not seem as special anymore if they were regular characters.

http://psychostorage.homestead.com/files/hiko01bnet.jpg
Hiko: The Man {Rurouni Kenshin}

[Drizzten]

It's hard to tell if I think CB would have been better with more Vicious.

For one, there's Constantine's post. For another, we all know how cool Vicious is. Maybe it's an issue of too much of a good thing? *ducks the thrown trash*

[Constantine Dragomirov]

*puts the trash can down*

I don't think so, Drizzt; if the creators wanted to make a mega-plot-series, it would've been just as good (perhaps better). Having focus not only on the protagonists, but on the opposing force as well, adds another dimension.

Really, I believe many of the "bounties" were like cardboard cutouts of "average villains". They could just as well have been Syndicate thugs, or somehow connected. Asimov, Morgan, H,D&L, Piccaro's gang, the pirates, the cellmates...

In my opinion, CB tries to cover so much ground and sometimes comes up too thin. So many new characters that exist only for one episode, and what's much worse, so many PLOTS that end as abruptly as they begin.

Now, it would've been much better to see a subcurrent running through ALL episodes. To have an organization such as the Red Dragon but with much greater ambition - one that would not only deal in drugs, but also try to control the Jump Gates, to zombie the population via television and internet, to experiment on people trying to breed the ultimate killing machine or an AI fit to control fleets of warships, to overtake whole planets... and maybe have a global master plan that simply denies description and has to do with the fate of Humanity as a whole...

Yes, I know I've watched too much Eva, but then again, I feel Eva set the new standarts in anime, allowing imagination to really run wild and break all boundaries.

CB tries to be immense. But falls short, and often appears too shallow. There's rarely much depth beneath the eye candy and obvious plots. Most of the stuff is really mundane, really. And that's a direct result of the creators' global strategy.

[Drizzten]

*cleans off the trash and grimaces at the smell*
Says Constantine Dragomirov:
Really, I believe many of the "bounties" were like cardboard cutouts of "average villains". They could just as well have been Syndicate thugs, or somehow connected. Asimov, Morgan, H,D&L, Piccaro's gang, the pirates, the cellmates...
I agree with you that the episodic villians were pretty thin. A story arc that lasts only 30 minutes is too reminiscent of Your Standard American Cartoon. But then again, the lack of a solid overplot set Bebop apart from the other anime I've seen. In a sense, it's quite unique for doing that instead of going the route most anime takes. Which route is better is debateable.

Now, it would've been much better to see a subcurrent running through ALL episodes. To have an organization such as the Red Dragon but with much greater ambition - one that would not only deal in drugs, but also try to control the Jump Gates, to zombie the population via television and internet, to experiment on people trying to breed the ultimate killing machine or an AI fit to control fleets of warships, to overtake whole planets... and maybe have a global master plan that simply denies description and has to do with the fate of Humanity as a whole...
I really like this idea. In fact, it would have fit very well into the framework they established with the other villains. It wouldn't have been too difficult to have some dialogue and some cut scenes detailing the plans of the Syndicate trying to exert it's power. However, Vicious was already getting on the ruling council's nerves. I don't know if they would have authorized such a wide-ranging plan for his general edification. On the other hand, Vicious could very well have had enough power on his own to commandeer the people necessary.

[Shadow Knight]

Well the one thing I did find a lot better, at least for me, in CB as opposed to say Eva is the characters. I felt much more towards the bebop crew more than I probably will ever to any of the Eva character regardless of their tragiv backgrounds. While the set up for CB probably won't suite everyone I do feel it had a more personal feel towards the characters. No large scale world thing. No grand feats of heroism to save the universe. A lot of what they did revolved around themselves with a couple of exceptions. Anyway that's just my two cents.

[Constantine Dragomirov]

To Drizzten

But then again, the lack of a solid overplot set Bebop apart from the other anime I've seen. In a sense, it's quite unique for doing that instead of going the route most anime takes

Really? I think the older anime series (Grendizer? Speedy? Candy-Candy? cant remember more) are exactly like that. And, of course, the kids' anime (SM, Pokemon, etc).

Which route is better is debateable.

Perhaps, but the mega-plot has won the evolution struggle, IMHO. It is the structure of most modern anime series, as far as I know (though that not be too far), and that's why you might see Bebop as an exception rather than mainstream.

However, Vicious was already getting on the ruling council's nerves. I don't know if they would have authorized such a wide-ranging plan for his general edification.

Doesn't matter who would be in charge... what I want to see is ambition extending beyond meagre drug-trafficking and police-bribing. These simple tasks are for the underlings, the day-to-day "bounties"; but there must also be something breathtaking, completely unexpected! This is the Future, dammit, they did a great job at establishing the background, but the plot simply lacks caliber.

To Shadow Knight

I felt much more towards the bebop crew more than I probably will ever to any of the Eva character regardless of their tragiv backgrounds.

I believe what made people feel for Eva characters was not their backgrounds, however grievous, but their life on screen, which was truly tragic in many aspects. Matters not what the exposition says, but what is actually happening to these people during the series (and the movie, of course).

While the set up for CB probably won't suite everyone I do feel it had a more personal feel towards the characters. No large scale world thing. No grand feats of heroism to save the universe. A lot of what they did revolved around themselves with a couple of exceptions.

I can understand that perfectly well. It's like the deal with guns - in CB they still use old-fashioned firearms instead of fancy blasters, which certainly sets a style... though I still believe it to be quite outstreched - imagine today's thugs, cops, and soldiers armed with arquebuses and muskets...

In no means I want "grand feats of heroism to save the universe". What I want is unpredictability and grandeur. Something that would hit you over the head and leave agape, like the Human Instrumentality Project. Whereas in CB the same stuff carries on through 26 episodes - Spike & Co. fighting thugs and finding out about their past. Even the climatic ending was totally foreseeable.

Perhaps the creators did that on purpose, and tried to create a mini-universe where the Red Dragon (just some regular mob) and Vicious (just a button man aspiring to become capo and have revenge) are ultimate forces, defeating which the "hero" sees nothing else to live for. It's not a bad idea, actually, and would have a certain twisted coolness... if it wasn't so damn obvious and shallow!

Was it so hard to add the element of surprise? To invent something new, other than gunfights and tragic memories? To show that the Future could breed something more than a mere mirror of our current world... even less than that...

Which brings to mind the constant parodies of real countries in CB... ah well, I guess I just want to rant about Bebop in general. And I'm afraid this isn't the right thread.

[Bishdariel]

i think it has something to do with spikes character! he wasnt obsessed by the idea to kill vicious. i think he knew that one day they would meet again and then everything would go a certain way!

[RyuKenZ]

I think we could have used a little bit more of Vicious since he was just so damn cool...but they made the right choice3 cause he would have become played out and just would not have the same effect as it did...its like Knives in Trigun...King Bad MoFo, but only seen rarely, I mean its good and bad in a way, cause it really adds to the characters aura and mystique, but dammit me want more Vicious and Knives...:D