View Full Version : Why the "Ruronin Kenshin: Memories" OVA is bad.
Ronin Aquila
13-01-01, 05:10 AM
Though the "Memories" Arc of the Ruronin Kenshin saga is a tragedy, it received a POOR treatment from Sony.
Reasons are as follows:
1) Excessive Callousness: In the Manga, there was a genuinely warm and touching relationship between Kenshin and Yukishiro Tomoe, and we see them BOTH smile at each other, not just Tomoe smiling. Here, we get two bored kids who barely know (or give a damn about) each other, are hardly ever affectionate, and a cheap (though hinted) sex scene between them. This cheapens the tragedy of Tomoe's death by turning her relationship with Kenshin into a purely hormonal one.
2) UNNECESSARY ADHERENCE TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS: It is admirable of the animators to portray a realistic story which COULD have happened in the real world. However, they COMPLETELY failed to capture what a Ruronin Keshin fight is about. The initial impact of the 14 year of Kenshin cutting the post was dulled when the "Sou-Ryu Sen" technique aspect was removed from it. Instead of a spectacular Ryu-Tsui-Sen-Zan that killed the first of the three men in Tomoe's fiance's band, we get a generic stab through the face. In fact, we NEVER get to see the super speed or ten foot leaps that is essential to the Kenshin universe. Even Shishio's fire sword was not seen when he killed Battousai's treacherous friend.
In such an excessively realistic world, it is hard to believe that it belonged to the same continuity of a world in which there are 30 foot giants, boys faster than the human eye can see, and maniacs who can paralyse with but a stare.
3) Tomome's POORLY TREATED DEATH. The original death of Tomoe was poignant and bittersweet, as she lovingly and gently smiled at Kenshin, asking him not to cry for her. In the OVA, however, she was a bitter wench who MADE the second scar on his face, maliciously making sure that he will NEVER be able to live in happiness.
Yes, its realistic. Yes it is bleak. But the Kenshin OVA is a poor addition to the RK universe because it lacked the heroic wonder and tender humanity that is so esssential to it.
I rather liked it. It is more realistic than the series, since there are none of those 'not-possible-in-reality' moves and attacks. I also liked the animation, the theme and the music, especially the music. This is not to say that i dislike the series. I like the series, but prefer the OVA
Drizzten
18-01-01, 03:05 AM
I have only seen the first tape of the OVA, but I really really enjoyed it. I have only seen the first 2 tapes of the TV series and haven't seen a page of the manga, so I can't compare them. But the art, music, and even the voice acting on the OVA impressed the hell out of me.
I liked it too. It showed just how different Kenshin was. It reflected how dark and introverted his character was. I didn't find Tomoe's death malicious in any way. The scar was a symbol of the past that he would work so hard to repent for. I liked its more realistic setting as it contrasted the lighter TV series. I love both but a change is refreshing.
AngelsGirl
21-01-01, 03:39 AM
Hey minna, i'm new here! I haven't personally seen the OAV yet, but i heard that it's a masterpiece. I have the manga, and i agree that it's portrayal of Kenshin's and Tomoe's relationship as very warm and touching. Very emotional...*wahhh!* It made me feel inside exactly as Watsuki-sensei intended it to be. I have a question though..you mentioned that there was a ...sex scene...between Kenshin and Tomoe. Was that ever hinted in the manga?? Kenshin's last day with Tomoe, when Tomoe cried on his shoulder, seemed to me to be the first time he held her. And after that, even though they ended up under the covers, they were both fully clothed. So, i guess they didn't?? ^_^
its a masterpiece indeed!!! well bout the sex scene, i think that they really did it, but im not sure also :heh: we've been debating it here a while back.
Drizzten
21-01-01, 01:59 PM
I just finshed watching second OVA volume and I think they gave the "couple" a perfect spin of awkwardness and love for each other. Her death scene was fine in my eyes. When reaching within himself to kill this immediate threat to himself, Kenshin accidentally kills the one person he really starts warming up to.
Boltarion
21-01-01, 05:43 PM
I liked the OVAs a lot, but I still have to agree with Aquila about Tomoe's death scene. I didn't like it how she just gave him his second scar on purpose. The whole OVA never really portrayed how much they really loved each other. I still think the OVAs are essential to any RRK fan. I liked how it was much darker and realistic than the TV series. It gave a more accurate and stronger feeling of what Kenshin's life was like back then.
Almost everything has already been said and i agree with everything except the first statement.
Still i like to say the OVA also show how messed up Kenshin was as the Battosai.
BigFire
27-01-01, 01:00 AM
I liked most of it, but I didn't think the hinted sex scene really added anything. I also didn't like how Kenshin kept on killing after Tomoe. He said that Tomoe would have wanted him to do that..does anyone really believe that?*spoiler*
Why couldn't they have just set the story at the very end of the Tokugawa period so that he could stop killing after Tomoe died?
He never thought she wanted that, he thought she knew he would have to. He had to finish what he had begun otherwise all of those people died for no reason.
On another note, the fight scenes though lacking the typical Kenshin Acrobatics etc. I believe suited the piece, remember here he was a killer, nothing more. He fought to kill. Not to protect like in the series. It also added to the realism (except that every character had about 3x their bodyweight in blood held at high pressure ;) ) I especially liked the scene at the start where he kills the bodyguards.
BigFire
30-01-01, 09:59 PM
Thanks Ura, I realise that you are right. One more question: why does that ninja guy in the 4th episode keep eating snow?
SSJ Kenshin X
30-01-01, 11:47 PM
I think it's either A) The snow is a signal for the traps, or B) He's sick.
As for the OVAs not being as good as the manga. would you have wanted it to be the same? I found it nice to see things in a new light... the truth can be viewed many ways. But as for tomoe cutting kenshin at the end... harsh
Jwoarang
31-01-01, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by BigFire
Thanks Ura, I realise that you are right. One more question: why does that ninja guy in the 4th episode keep eating snow?
Maybe to lessen the sound of his breathing?
got a question.
do u guys remember kenshins opponent/assassin(from OVA)wher they fought in the rain? it was where he meet tomoe. my question is this, was the assassin a member of the Oniwabanshu? ive heard Katsura said that he was, but im not sure...
BigFire
01-02-01, 04:19 AM
Bleed: He certainly was a member of the Oniwabonshu ninjas. He has the same clothing as the other ninjas, and in the dub Katsura and Kenshin agree that he must have been one.
The snow was so that Kenshin couldn't see his breath. When its cold your breath fogs but breathing through the snow means that its cool enough not to be seen. Basically to give Kenshin less warning of where he was coming from.
Yiup, the Oniwabanshu, he was too skilled and violent to be a member of the Shinsen Gumi
Crazy Arliss
02-02-01, 09:25 PM
I've never seen the manga, but I thought the OVA was a nice change of pace as I've haven't seen much like it in a while. Then again.. I don't watch nearly as much Anime as I used to/should.
Crazy Arliss
XxPrOdiGyxX
06-02-01, 08:00 AM
The arguments you gave for why Kenshin OVA was bad I can not possibly agree with except for the fact that the relationship between Kenshin and Tomoe wasn't developed enough. That I can grudgingly agree.
The scar that Tomoe gave Kenshin can not be construed to be malicious. From what I can seem to understand, the scar she gave him was for the repentence of the old scar. Now that the revenge had been exacted the old scar would never bleed again. It symbolized the transition from the old Kenshin to the new one. If, indeed, the cut was given with malice then, like the first scar, the second one would have kept bleeding. Since it did not it proves blatantly that it was not given out of hatred.
The commment on the lack of 50 foot jump attacks and what not is totally irrelevant. Sony intended this short series to be starkly different from the original. There is no way you can say the TV series is more realistic.
BigFire
09-02-01, 12:20 AM
Did the OVA have the same director as the TV series?
Yes the name is Furu'h'ashi Kazuhiro
?'k'?
Also directed Fatal Fury: One Two Punch
Bleed: do u guys remember kenshins opponent/assassin(from OVA)wher they fought in the rain? it was where he meet tomoe. my question is this, was the assassin a member of the Oniwabanshu? ive heard Katsura said that he was, but im not sure...
I don't think the assassin is a member of Oniwabanshu.
Even though Katsura said that and the others agree, the Creator (Nabuhiro Watsuki) would probably not.
I believe he's from the Yaminobu Clan (the ones Kenshin fought in the 4th OVA)
Reason: The ninja outfit is the same as the twin ninjas'(4th OVA: with the Giant Axe and Claw)
At the time they fought, Lizuka has probably allied with the Yaminobu ninjas.
In fact before the fight, he seem to smile sinisterly and left quickly when Kenshin refuse to drink with him.
(Anyway, who's the first person in the OVA to said Hitokiri Battousai? Ans: Lizuka)
I rather liked it. although, I love seeing the RRK moves, it was a treat seeing the anime treated with a little more realism.
little Saitoh
22-10-01, 08:25 AM
i like the OVA, but i agree with every single point ya made, especially that they didn't portray the tomoe kenshin relationship very well, and WHY did TOmoe made the second slash on Kenshin's face delibrately??
another thing that i wanna say, when Kenshin was fighting the 4 ninjas, in the manga, he was concentrating on fighting and get Tomoe back and he cut off the first person's hands and feet... ( i think) but in the OVA, he wasn't concentrating on the battle at all, all he cared is TOmoe, he was calling his name and waving is sword around, and those Ninjas just HAD to be in the way.
but it was really neat when the first Ninja actually swollowed snow to get in temperature down, didn't say that in the manga:D
Kano Miyazawa
22-10-01, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by nrad
I don't think the assassin is a member of Oniwabanshu.
Even though Katsura said that and the others agree, the Creator (Nabuhiro Watsuki) would probably not.
I believe he's from the Yaminobu Clan (the ones Kenshin fought in the 4th OVA)
Reason: The ninja outfit is the same as the twin ninjas'(4th OVA: with the Giant Axe and Claw)
At the time they fought, Lizuka has probably allied with the Yaminobu ninjas.
In fact before the fight, he seem to smile sinisterly and left quickly when Kenshin refuse to drink with him.
I think you're right, I'm pretty sure the chain-sword ninja is part of the Yaminobu, not the Oniwabanshu.
Personally, I loved the OVAs. I think they portray both Kenshin and Tomoe as being more serious than they were in the manga. Which I think actually leads some people to dislike Tomoe... but they might dislike the manga Tomoe just as much so I can't really blame the OVAs.
As far as Tomoe giving Kenshin his second scar... I rather the way it was done in the manga but I don't think it was done maliciously in the anime at all.
...The OVAs may not follow the manga exactly, but in my opinion they don't have to.
this is interesting.....i find it very hard to believe that any kenshin fan would dislike the OAV. its a goddamn masterpiece. the music, animation, emotive feel, its all great.
the OAV was intended to be as realistic as possible, while still holding onto some anime ideals. As you have all witnessed, his attacks are not 'superman' (ie 50 foot jumps as ive heard) as that simply isnt possible in that era without some sort of invention. If u watched the emotive instances portrayed throughout the OAV, it would just be quite idiotic and out of place if suddenly kenshin managed to destroy the rock below his feet when he stamped on the ground.
Next, Kenshin and Tomoes love, i feel was portrayed quite magnificently. U think about it, Tomoe didnt even look happy when she was with her to-be husband at the beginning. Its obvious she doesnt express her emotions very often, not visually. And its quite difficult to be overwhelmingly cheerful and happy in an era like that, knowing ure life is in danger everyday of the week, especially with kenshin as company. But she did love him. If we could see that, then tey did their job is portraying it, one would assume, while still keeping the story and feel of the OAV to be one of sadness and despair, given the era. But kenshin was happy. living a simple life he was happy, and he showed it more than Tomoe, which also, when u think about it, that Tomoe doesnt show her feelings as well as others, perhaps because she cannot handle the experiences she has been through.
But just remember that she hates herself as well as kenshin after the death of her husband (to-be) She said "if only she was there...." as he risked his life to fight, and make the people free and safe. Kenshin both took away her happiness and gave her a new one, and it would be hard to forgive him completely for what he has done, considering he was in complete ignorance of his killing of her husband until the end of the OAV.
If u wanted to be lame, you could say that Tomoe gave him his second scar because he needed it for the series ^_^' but that doenst explain it. (thats more like explaining why Team rocket are such dumasses, cos they gotta fill a 30min time slot, like they say). In my opinion, considering that Tomoe became extremely concerned over kenshins bleeding scar during their early encounters, she did not add to his scars in hatred. I would say that she made the cross as a way of saying sorry (a way, not the best way)and to signify that she had 'completed a set' so to say - Tomoe and her husband both killed be kenshin, and he was ignorant of both killings until it was too late.
...oh well, it was long, but thats my rant for now ^_^
Well, first off, I have not read the Manga, (but I intend to) and this limits me to the series and the OAV...
IMO, the OAV was very well done, and was an effective counterpart to the much lighter and "fantastic" tv series.... there was such a gritty realism in it, that I amost forgot it was anime at points...
... I started out as illusion and shadow play, a plot within a plot...
where fantasy became reality...
Despite the barriers and obstacles, affection grew and put Tomoe at odds with herself. Torn between honor and love, this terrible struggle consumed her from within... leaving a tortured melencholy soul who could only find peace in death, with the blood from her fiances killer ... for honor, and her life, in exchange for Kenshin, her second love.
Drizzten
23-10-01, 03:48 AM
I've now seen the TV series all the way up to Kenshin facing Seijuro. So I've seen some of the crazy things these guys are capable of.
My opinion is still unchanged about the OVA. I think it's a masterful re-interpretation of what happened. A different take than is grounded more in reality, a way to express a set of emotions in a different way. The TV series' art can't compare to the beauty of the OVA. The atmosphere can't either, except for a few parts.
Originally posted by Drizzten
I've now seen the TV series all the way up to Kenshin facing Seijuro. So I've seen some of the crazy things these guys are capable of.
... It only gets better until it explodes as the final clamactic moment where....ehhh... now that would be telling ha!
... but seriously, you are in for a treat Drizz!
SamIam
Kodachi
24-10-01, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Ronin Aquila
1) Excessive Callousness: In the Manga, there was a genuinely warm and touching relationship between Kenshin and Yukishiro Tomoe...
I couldn't see much difference, the anime just portrayed their relationship in a more true to life manner.
see them BOTH smile at each other, not just Tomoe smiling
This is what bugs you? Kenshin was never even around women during his adolecense years, he has probably no idea how he's supposed to act, added to that he's a teenage assassin, and we all know how hard that can be on a growing lad.
a cheap (though hinted) sex scene between them... relationship with Kenshin into a purely hormonal one.
Jeez, have you been watching at all? lift your eyes from the manga page for a second and look at Kenshin's behaviour on episode 4. He is most clearly in love with Tomoe and would readily die for her, he is just a very confused and tormented young man who most clearly does not know how to express his emotions or even what his emotions are. Tomoe is probably just as confused, I'll have to agree that she doesn't act very affectionate most of the time, but this was also present in the manga. Obviously she did love Kenshin, having sacrificed her life for him (then again, maybe she was just looking for an easy way out). Never much liked her character anyway.
2) UNNECESSARY ADHERENCE TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS:.
Ok, this entire point is irrelevent, the OVA was done in a very different style from the TV series, you don't like it, that's fine, it doesn't make it bad. Personally, I think it fits the somber mood of the story. Picture Kenshin going "oro? O.Ox" as he slices through Tomoe's back.
3) Tomome's POORLY TREATED DEATH.
I tend to agree with you about this point, the manga's execution of it seemed better to me. It was probably changed for the OVA because the dagger accidently slicing Kenshin, making a cross, is a little far fatched. I am sure though, that Tomoe's reason for cutting into ken was in no way malicious and while it baffled me on the first viewing, I feel that after reading some of this thread, I understand this action more.
Yes, its realistic. Yes it is bleak. But the Kenshin OVA is a poor addition to the RK universe because it lacked the heroic wonder
and tender humanity that is so esssential to it.
It seems to me that you just didn't like the new style. I can't really find any major differences between the OVA and the manga that would damage the story.
I haven't read the mangas,
I've seen the series from the beginning till the end of the Kyoto arc
I've only seen the first two of the OVA and I liked them; granted that the dark moody atmosphere was probably not for all followers of Kenshin, but I thought that atmosphere was incredibly intense and somewhat fitting for the era in which the events were played out
I found it fitting that Kenshin couldn't smile like an innocent lover
Ronin Aquila - 1) Excessive Callousness:
You are perhaps unfamiliar with traditional Japanese cultural values on expressing emotions one one's face?
2) UNNECESSARY ADHERENCE TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS:
I am absolutely shocked at this one. You're complaining that the OVA's have not been pokemonised?
3) Tomome's POORLY TREATED DEATH.
Cutting his cheek was not, as so many have already mentioned, a malicious act. I personally considered it to be her way of honouring Kiyosato's death ie. marking Kenshin as Kiyosato did.
Ronin Aquila
25-10-01, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Sastan
[
2) UNNECESSARY ADHERENCE TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS:
I am absolutely shocked at this one. You're complaining that the OVA's have not been pokemonised?
SHEESH!! Goddammit!! The reason I complained about this at the time is because Ruroni Kenshin is a tale of legendary heroes that entire armies feared to face.
This theme was plausible in the TV series and Manga for Kenshin, Shishio and Shishio were more akin to the literally Earth-Shaking heroes and villains of Hong Kong Action films.
There is hardly any reason to believe them deserving such reputations if they were only as good as mere champion fencers, which is precisely what the OVA portrayed them as.
And believe me, young man, you will be hard pressed to find a person who hates the electric rat as I do.
Finally, this thread was composed when I was bitter and angry, and having watched a bllured, poorly fansubbed, bootlegged, censored, TV broadcast version of this OVA. Having seen it in its full majestic grandeur on DVD, I hereby withdraw my compalints.
In truth, "Memories" is a poignantly beautiful tale with which the superheroics of the source material would have destroyed its heartbreaking and powerful tragedy. The raw emotions invoked by its superb voice acting and unforgettable Musical Score have few rivals.
I hereby give my praises to it and apologise to anyone I may have offended with this thread.
I agree with Ronin Aquilla. I wanted some romanticism with the techniques.. Kenshin in the OAVs wasn't even up to Sanjuro standard (Though Sanjuro is a kickass character).
Actually, from what I can tell, your points Ronin are entirely true about how the OVA was portrayed. The Manga came first, and then the TV series hence the OVA had ground rules which the director should have followed - however, it's a different take at what the legendary hitokiri really was and just because it doesn't follow its predecessors directly that doesn't make it bad. You could say it failed - failed to perfectly bring the TV Series and Manga back in its truest form - but it's definitely not bad. The OVAs are some of the most amazing animes there are ...
I think the reason the director chose to go with a design grounded by realism is because it's very difficult to describe such a harsh reality with super abilities and have the audience be able to relate to the characters correctly. Instead, we were able to see what happens when a young child fights to save a country by slaughtering countless men. We were able to see in gruesome detail what it would have really been like for someone with so much talent to kill mercelessly at such a young age - only because he wants a better Japan for everyone ...there was realistic sword play and realistic deaths - which is the best way to show what Kenshin's life was like before the Meiji ...
An example -
Kenshin flips, jumps off a wall, blocks a sword then flies 10 feet into the air and yells out his attack while lopping off an opponettes head.
Result - viewer says, "woah cool!"
Shortly afterwards kids are practicing same techniques off the living room couch.
Kenshin, with perfect precision, deflects a slash then quickly stabs his blade into his target's skull.
Result - viewer thinks, "Oh my ..."
Gets the point across that Kenshin was a swift and skillful swordsman/murderer. Kids run off to play not wanting to watch any more.
I know this is a goofy way of giving an example, but it should serve to prove its point ...I hope :rolleyes:
<edited because I didn't get to finish up before I left work>
KamuiX - Gets the point across that Kenshin was a swift and skillful swordsman/murderer. Kids run off to play not wanting to watch any more.
That's a fairly good description...the OVAs are not well suited to those who aren't mature enough to appreciate it, or something along those lines.
/ducks and runs.
(although apparently the series gets more 'mature' later on, but I've only seen the frist 12 episodes, so I can't comment)
psycnarf
25-10-01, 11:41 PM
In terms of art and animation I find the RK OAV suberb. Storywise its suppose to be somber and tragic as well as realistic. Anyways battousai is suppose to be a legendary hero not a super hero.
Ronin Aquila
26-10-01, 09:24 AM
Hmm, but continuity wise he has excelled his teacher, who is so powerful that he can block a sword the size of a bus and porceed to defeat its 100 meter tall weilder.
If excelling that is not superheroic, what is?
But then again, the OVA Kenshin and the "Canonical" Kenshin are two whole different personae altogether...
in my opinion, the defying of physics would detract from the emotional charging of the plot, Kenshin isn't some superhero here like he is in the series, but he is all too human and I like that quality above all other things
Yeah, even in the entire TV series, if you look at his flashbacks of the past (1st episode and vs. Saitoh, Shinsengumi), it didn't show him jumping high or moving so fast as if he teleported and later screaming attacking names or something. (well, except in Requiem For Ishin Shishi where jump high to evade Gentatsu)
He's character in the past is a silent and gloomy Battousai.
And this is what's portraited in the OVA.
The only special techniques he used are Sou Ryu Sen and perhaps Ryu Tsui Sen(when he cut a Shinsengumi's sword) b'cos these are the only techniques that are close to reality.
Do you think Hiko Seijuro uses Kuzu Ryu Sen when he slaughtered the last bandit in the OVA? I counted five lightning slashes (in slow motion) and they seems to hit all nine vital areas.
Well, I don't know. What do you guys think?
Originally posted by Dazman
in my opinion, the defying of physics would detract from the emotional charging of the plot, Kenshin isn't some superhero here like he is in the series, but he is all too human and I like that quality above all other things
I think the bodies exploding in bursts of high pressure blood was much more unrealistic. Though I can kind of see the way the style of fighting in the OAV emphasises the killing, not the style.
yeah i think hiko seijuro used the kuzu ryu sen on that bandit but it was a more realistic version off it
Originally posted by nrad
Do you think Hiko Seijuro uses Kuzu Ryu Sen when he slaughtered the last bandit in the OVA? I counted five lightning slashes (in slow motion) and they seems to hit all nine vital areas.
Well, I don't know. What do you guys think?
I think that it was only the Ryu Sou Sen. The early form of the Kuzu Ryu Sen.
Shadow Knight
16-11-01, 02:47 PM
Yeah I was wondering about that as well.
As for the manga and the OAV...in all truth I liked the OAV better than the one I read in the manga. Don't get me wrong though, the one in the manga was quite the story. However I liked the more realistic approach done in the OAV... having Kenshin jump high and do super human things I think would have detracted from what the story was suppose to be like. About her death...I dunno. I actually liked the one in the OAV...but I think I agree that the manga death was a little more heartfelt. Either way the story of Kenshin and Tomoe was an awesome, but sad story.
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