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Old 01-07-2000, 04:46 AM   #1   [permalink]
eva2000
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Access
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Apposels
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Ok we all know the word Angel is mistranslated, Shito meaning apposel rather than angel, mainly because it sounds better. But how does this effect the story, Angels are messangers of God, while Apposels are followers of Jesus which closely followed him while he was on Earth. But isnt Ramiel and Arieal and all those actually the highest order of ArchAngels according to the bible, so this would imply that infact that they are angels and not apposels, can anyone inform me, I really have no clue?
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3foolishmen
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On an informatory note, "ten-shi"(say "ten she") is the word for angel in the X'tian sense. Shito can mean anything from missionary to diplomatic emissary to messenger, without any inherent religious overtones, although there could well be.
All the angels' names were probably designated by Seele, considering they had the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the names were actually inscribed on the scrolls. The divine hierarchy as seen in the Bible could just have been a convenient naming system for them to use.
Although there seems to be a consensus that the angels were confronting mankind in a contest for survival, you don't have to assume that the angels' were under the control of, and had to reply to "God". There is no implication whatsoever of any puppetmaster that draws the angels' strings during the series, so to speak. It could very well be a Darwinian evolutionary survival contest that mankind and the angels were involved in.(Incidentally, this happens to be my take.)


3foolishmen
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Being really anal, the spelling is 'apostles'.
I just succumbed to an obsessive compulsive urge to throw that in.


The Nondescript
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Yes indeed.

There need not be a 'God' in Eva as the God of the 1st or new testament.
Or as the puppetmaster God as 3f says.

As Ritsu says man found a God in Adam.
And Seele say that man should not make Gods (unit 1).
These Shito/Eva may be the only ultimate beings.


Access
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(5/7/00 11:06:07 pm)
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God
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The 'Great God Discussion' was a discussion I once faced at another board which has since closed down(and got more response then I have ever seen in a discussion). No outcome came of it, I however have lost all will to argue a futile point, (surprisingly I didnt even bring the discussion up).

I will only state a few things, I dont believe in God, many people don't but that is not an excuse to remove the hand of God in EVA. The idea of God is such a strong idea, in all relgions and with the extensive amount of Research Anno put in, I disbelieve he would leave out something so basic, to all relgions. Every thing spoken about, the wandering Jew, Marduke Institute, Angels, Lance of Loginus, Crucifitions, Tree of Life, Tree of Knowledge, Adam, Eve, Lillith, Genesis and all the other relgious symbols which refer to story which involve God, I cannot begin to understand why Anno would include all this and not put God in his place. Look at the Nerv Slogan, "God in his Heaven all right with the World".
Also;
Shinji:"Auska what are Angels"
Auska: "Why are you asking now"
Shinji: "....Angels are messangers from God so why are we attacking angels"
And Also;
Fugitsu:"The seed of life is being implanted into Unit-01 making it possess both the seed of knowledge and the seed of Life, it is now is truning into the Tree of Life where or life orginated making it equal with God"

All references are made refering to God, symbols of his son being crucified, references to storys which involve God, and it is above and beyond me the concept that God is not involved. Dicuss what you wish, but I only have another 70 or so (hopefully) years left to live and that doesnt allocate enough time to discuss this arguement. I have heard enough on this arguement for 2 lifetimes.

So is their any reason as my orginal question stated that the miss translation of the word Shito, would effect anything of EVA.
Access


A T h 401
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(5/7/00 11:21:29 pm)
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Most of what needs to be said has (3foolishmen you must be at wits end reading through some of our posts, spelling errors and all lol.)

Highest order of Archangels??

The Archangels are as a group the highest order, followed by the Angels and then the Spheres (God being above the Archangels).

Metatron would be the Highest Archangel and the only one who is said to be able to behold the Face of God, He maintains the Chayoth ha-Qadesh (Holy Living Creatures), the order of Angels.

And so it continues.....

I can only say that for me it seems that the eglish word angel was a good choise, so maybe not a mistranslation, but an informed translation is a better perspective.

ATh


Access
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(5/7/00 11:34:32 pm)
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settle man, settle....
Access


fasad
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i have to say that using any other word would just not be right. sure, angel is not a perfect fit, but from what i know of japanese and it use, the multiple interpretations are used on purpose - look at ep25: "the final messager/seashore/death". <3foolishmen ? >

in the series, the angels, if not "sent" by god, at least have a different, more "spitirual" form/mindset/existence to us humans. i think that angels, as inhabitants of heaven/messengers from god as in christianity are similar enough to allow nge to borrow the name. "apostles" just doesn't have the right meaning/conitations.


3foolishmen
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Yeah ATh, if I could only edit other folks' posts... hey, Eva2000, why don't you appoint me the official proofreader of this board? =)

Fasad: Is that the title for ep.25? I can't add much there because I don't have the series at hand; even if I did, they're the subtitled version, so the commercial break inserts have been translated into English already.

I'm going to try to get my point across as simply as possible, but not enough sleep these days is not going to help me any, so please bear along. What I meant to say was that there is no need to assume the shito are "angels" in the X'tian sense of the word, because the word "angel" was introduced ~!after!~ the series was translated into the Western and predominantly X'tian language, and since there are no hints of a mastermind(a X'tian God) behind the shito's advances in the series. The shito being named after the divine hierarchy could just have been a move made out of convenience.

In addition, I'd like to bring to your attention that, although X'tian and Judaic symbols abound, by no means are these the two religions that the series is limited to. The phrases that are something like "This is the Shinji in Misato, and at the same time, the Misato in Shinji.", seen in ep.25&26(tv series), derive from Buddhist principles about the simultaneous and reciprocal presence of the seer and the seen. One of the main themes in ep.26(tv) that reality is only what you perceive it to be, is also an extended application of the aforementioned principle.

So, what am I trying to say? I don't really know myself, although I wouldn't say that a concept of a monotheistic "God" is included in the series, I wouldn't limit it to that, either.


Capt Jake
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The point is that if you don't think that the angels are from God then you haven't been paying too much attention to the NGE storyline. Access brought up a lot of good proofs toh help. Also notice how they explode into crosses. They are God's angels sent to test humanity as was said in the dead sea scrolls. They are trying to return to Adam, ever notice how not one Angel actually attacked first. They all just go looking for Adam and all of a sudden the military is trying to shove cruise missiles up it's ass. Then they send in an Eva to open up a can of serious whoop ass upon it's angelic anus. If they aren't sent from God then what are they? Tell me that.


3foolishmen
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Cap'n says: "If they aren't sent from God then what are they? Tell me that."

Me says: "It could very well be a Darwinian evolutionary survival contest..." Like I said, X'tianity and Judaism aren't the only religions that the series touches upon. I can certainly accept the possibility that other religious/philosophical/metaphysical systems were taken into consideration during the conception of the series. Like Darwin's theory of evolution...

Cap'n says: "Also notice how they explode into crosses."

Me says: Not all of them. If I remember correctly, the 7th and 10th go up in mushrooms. The 8th disintegrates, and the ninth just stays there... I suppose these angels were freelancing then?
The series certainly draws heavily on Judeo-X'tian symbols. But there is no evidence that the series endorses either of these religions(not that I'm saying it opposes their creed). If there is no evidence that the series endorses the religions completely, then the statement that there must be a "God" behind the angels isn't necessarily valid.

Cap'n says: "They are trying to return to Adam..."

Me says: Then why did the 3rd, 4th and 5th angels appear in Tokyo, when Adam was in Germany at the time?


The Nondescript
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Cap'n says: they were tricked.

or something like that, 3f points out incosistencies in Cap'n Snooze quick points, then Cap says more stuff on his views giving us all more fodder then you guys argue for pages+ pages about this stuff....

On the seashore thing I read that Nagisa is phonetically; 'seashore', or 'of the sea shore'.

This is why Misasto says: 'Kaouru of the seashore'. Not because he was 1st found there by Stingi.
I think this ep mentioned was called the last 'nagisa'. Right Fasad? I'm Not sure.

The opening song talks all about Tenshi's and the zankokus of them but not of shitos.

There may be a one 'God' in Eva but we can't tell if this is the Christian God. (His) effects as in this world are not felt the Shito however certainly are.

'Did God create man or did man need to create god?'-Rasskas


Access
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(5/8/00 5:40:20 pm)
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Quick fix, on some answers.
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Well I dont see it as limiting EVA by have a monothesistic god, Christanty is very promident in EVA, personally I belelevie itis the strongest relgions in it, of course Jewdism and the Kabbalah are VERY VERY strong throughout aswell.

Now when cap said they explode into crosses, I think he was refering to when mankind merged, crosses shot up from all places of the earth, representing all the people of earth. This was a definite sign of Christanity, also note the battle between Sachiel and Unit-01 it involved corsslike explosions.

Why did the angels go after Adam in the Geofront when Adam wasnt actually their, well thats because they were ALL under the belief that Lillith was Adam, only on closer inspection do they know who Lillith really is (done by Tabris). Yes well now you will go and imply that god should of instructed them to find exactly where Lillith was, well, God gave them the will to find something, Mankind were the ones with the fruit of intellegence. They also wouldnt of known who Adam was because they were born in a crysallis like stage, if you had never seen your mother after you were born would you know what she looked like. God gave the will to find Adam but not the steps to take. They were fooled. With so much activity occuring at Nerv of course they were going after them.
Access


A T h 401
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(5/8/00 11:17:06 pm)
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Even the Egyptians 4000 years before Jesus were using the symbol of a cross as a very significant religious symbol, so the cross is not a christan symbol only. In fact the number of religions using it would indicate not only its importance but its reality to the human mind.

The Qabalah can be used as a key to decipher any religion, so it does not only lend itself to the Jewish and Christain monotheisism (if you call the fourfold God of the Jews and the threefold christan interpretaion monothestic)

One thing about the Darwinian theory-- Why would the Angels show up? they could live happily elsewhere? It does not follow or give any reason why the Angels are here doing what they seem to do best (making life hard for Shinji).

The Evas are angel but with a human soul, the Evas can live without the earth ect. so i can see no reason why the angel would just show up unless they had a purpose (and im not saying what that is -- destruction of humanity???)

Can you discuss this more 3foolishmen?

ATh


eva2000
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Quote:
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hey, Eva2000, why don't you appoint me the official proofreader of this board? =)
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too late, ezboard released version 5.3 today with a spell checker function

although it freezes my browser when i tried to use it


3foolishmen
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I can certainly try. ^^;
It seems to me that the onslaught of the angels and following conflicts with the Evas were basically a selection process similar to that of Darwinian evolution, although compressed into a very short timespan of 2-3 months(?).
Taken from a fan-translated script:
Kaoru: "Still, the Lilims are trying to survive by using [the Evas]."
Later in ep24, Kaoru also says,
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"The life that escapes the time of annihilation, and that obtains the future, is only one. And, you are not the one who must die. All of you need the future."
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Misato, in EoE, explains to Shinji that Mankind, like the angels, was also born of Lilith, and that the angels were "just other possibilities of what Man could have been."

Why would the angels show up? Apparently, only one survivor is allowed out of the 18 possibilites. I don't know why, but that's according to what Kaoru says. It seems to me that the angels, just like Mankind, had a purpose - to survive the selection process, even if the destruction of all the other "possibilities" was a consequence. This selection process is Darwinian to the extent that the presence of a higher being that sets the stage, is not prerequisite to the process, and is irrelevant to the development of the process as well. (<- That statement is NOT made with the intent of demeaning the presence of a g(G)od(s), just so I don't have to bring out the fire extinguisher.) The presence of an "unmoved mover" that started off the whole natural selection process ~!could!~ be true, and the government of total random and statistical probability over the process could be just as true. The whole point is, it's not a necessary issue to iron out in order to take natural selection into consideration, and the Darwinian theory provides us with a system that makes heads out of tails of this mess.
Geez, the trouble atheists and agnostics have to go through to try get a perspective of their presence in the world. ^^;

P.S. Since I don't know much about X'tianity, I did ask a X'tian once how he reconciled monotheism with the 3fold entities, as well as how the "Thou shalt not commit idolatry" commandment went with carrying crosses and rosaries and worshiping statues depicting a crucified Christ.
He kind of went around the first question by saying something about the Holy Ghost and Christ being part of God, so there wasn't a problem with a single "god", and the answer to the second question went something like, since the crosses and statues are only symbols of God, it's not idolatry.


fasad
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i find the presence and names of adam and lilith, not to mention the evas, all items of jewduism/christianity, to be a good starting point for saying the "angels" were sent by *the god* of these monotheisic religions.

as for "nagisa", i was under the impression that it meant several things : the seashore, but also can mean messanger/ death, which is not mentioned in the adv translation.
the adv ep:24 is titled "the final messanger"
the literal tranlastion says :

This title is written in a way that allows multiple meanings. It could be taken to mean "The Final Messenger" or "The Final Death," or even (phonetically) "The Final Seashore."

i guess it was written using 3 ideograms, and they "read" as "messenger". "death". and something else. together, they sound na-gi-sa, which means seashore. Of course, i don't really know, i dont know any japanese!!!
<3foolishmen !?!?>

i find 3foolishmen's idea of evolution interesting, i would have never considered that. however, i think kaouru means that humans live in a state of constant "future optimism", which is all that keeps them going and hence, is the only reason they exist! (look at ep25/26). the angels don't feel the same, due to their different, solitary souls - they don't feel the "emptiness" of the now.

i love nge


A T h 401
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Very well put 3foolishmen,

however it does raise one more question-- why this selection process?

It seems to me that all the Angels and humans could live together in this universe (say one to a galaxy) with not problems at all. But the Angels actively seek out something, Adam/Lilith, the destruction of mankind.

Is there any evidence to indicate that humans actively sought the destruction of these angels?? there does seem to be some evidence (NERV was well prepared) but is this enough?

I suppose the sore point i have is that Darwins theory does not need to include the eradication of the 'inferior' type. It is true that within a select community the features which would be the fittest will prevail and alter that community, but not always at the expense of surrounding species. (one clear example is that of the cockaroach and humans. Roaches are more apt for survival than humans and yet they dont seem to be wiping us out).

It is very hard to see this selection process (humans/angels) without a higher purpose behind it as the driving force.

Your P.S. on christianity is quite common, but often if those same excuses were used by another religion they would be dismissed.
I have heard good evidence to support an argument which concludes that Christianity is nothing more than Greek monothesim, using a good Egyptian basis. Most people are unaware that some of ancient Egypts religion was monothesistic (if not most)

ATh


3foolishmen
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*finds Japanese title to ep24*
"Oh~~~~, okaaaaaaaaay, I seeeeeee." I finally figured it out, it's pretty brilliant wordplay, and this is how it breaks down. You might want to review what the simplified overview of the Japanese language here before you proceed. And don't forget to turn the encoding settings of your browser to Japanese Auto-select.

The title for ep24, in Japanese, is 「最後のシ者」. This is how it reads and means:
最後, 'psy go', means: "last, final".
の, 'no', is a hiragana letter, as well as a preposition that means: "of".
シ, "she", is a katakana letter, without any given meaning.
者, "sha", means "person" or "somebody who does".

Then what's that 「シ」doing in there if it has no given meaning? Let me introduce another Japanese word which will help make sense out of this.
使者, "she sha", literally, "a person who is sent", in other words, a messenger, an emissary. As you can see, the pronunciation is the same as the word used in the title. Simultaneously, 「使者」 is synonymous to 「使徒」, "she toe", the word Eva fans have become familiar with as "angel". A literal translation of the title, at this point, is "The Last Messenger", and a translation within the context of NGE is "The Last Angel".

Then why use 「シ者」 instead of 「使者」, or moreso, 「使徒」? I'm sure you have caught on by now, that「シ者」 and 「渚」 bear considerable physical semblance. So the implied meaning of the title is "the last angel" is Kaoru.

It's hard enough to translate, even harder to translate and explain wordplay like this. Ever try explaining a joke to someone who just can't get it? Analysis takes out all the humor from the joke, just as it takes out the ingenuity of wordplay like this, but I hope you all followed.


3foolishmen
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The previous post went way off-topic, try to get back on track now.
Fasad: "The presence and names of Adam and Lilith, ...sent by *the god* of these monotheisic religions." The angels being named after the divine hierarchy, maybe. But Adam sent by God? I understand that Lilith is not mentioned in the Old Testament either(not sure).
I don't think it would be wise to say that either the X'tian God or the Judaic god sent the angels, because material from both religions (and more) is included in the series, and an either/or choice of one of the religion's god would necessitate the exclusion of the other, a choice not made in the series.
If your stance is that there is in fact only one, um, say, 'being', behind the entire Judeo-X'tian tradition, then I think that my argument that the series touches upon more than one religious/philosophical/metaphysical system applies, and I can live with that. I wouldn't use it for grounds that the 'being' is direct force manipulating the angels, though.

ATh: Why the selection process? Hmmm, good one. Like I said, I don't know. Here's my best shot, for what it's worth.
I suppose you're focusing on the reasoning and motivating source/force behind the rule that only one out of the 18 possibilities can survive. The point you make about a characteristic of the Darwinian theory is true, although, in my opinion, that point and your example of roaches and humans co-existing isn't a valid analogy to draw in the case of Humans vs Angels. Species are geared to perpetuate the survival of their own kind, and usually will not come into conflict with another species because the risks and projected damages for both sides would be high. This is unless they are competing for a limited resource required for their own kinds' survival. If this is the case, 2 or more species will confront one another in order to procure the resources. I'd say that humans have come to evolve to a balance that doesn't put them into conflict with roaches. We each occupy our specific niches, and do not share essential resources, and the resources that we do share are plentiful for us both. Perhaps roaches have already battled it out with their own "angels" and emerged victorious.
Within the series, it does not seem to be the case that humans and angels can share whatever resource they need. Now it's our turn. Apparently, mankind and angels require some resource and are competing for it. "The life that escapes annihilation is only one."

You say: "It is very hard to see this selection process (humans/angels) without a higher purpose behind it as the driving force."
Life evolves in order to evolve. Why? Why not? =) Honestly, that's good enough for me.

On a final note, what is this resource? Guessing from the series' themes, it's probably not anything tangible, rather, I think it's something to do with the human condition, perhaps a mental state of enlightenment that 'complements' humanity. That's my 2 cents' worth.


Capt Jake
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Alright already. Now the whole point to this Angel attack thing is to help humankind evolve to their ultimate final form and break away from their darwinian dead end. But by communing with Adam and destroying humanity what would they have to gain from this? Sure humanity would be destroyed but they have no real gain. Thus as the dead sea scrolls even said the Angels are here to test humanity to see if we are worthy of earning our place back with "God". We ate the forbidden fruit and thus screwed ourselves over big time. We had to earn our way to reach the final form in evolution. According to pretty much every religion out there once a person dies thier soul is judged based on their previous actions and if their good deeds outweigh the bad ones they go to Heaven, Nirvana, Valhalla or wherever their heaven is. The good third impact allows us all to get into heaven regardless of our actions in life and to essentially become a God like being or an Angel. We all would be merged into our final form whence we came (did I just make up a word there? cool!). Thus they are there simply for the purpose of testing us and who else would or could send someone to test us than God. They have the names of the Angels which backs that up. The names must of been said in the dead sea scrolls cuz where else would the proper and rather suitng names come from? Notice how if you think about it enough all of their names make perfect sense and coinsidence like that isn't too likely. Also one thing you have to realize about this whole thing in general is that all religions, although may seem different at first glance have the same basic principles behind them. They are all basically different interpretations fo the same God. Our good friends at Gainax probably realized that and took that into consideration when producing the series.


A T h 401
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The Captin makes a few good points
but im still not sure about this resourse thing (you are right about species compeating only when they have to) but in light of both Christian and Jewish religion the Angels are already complete.

I see no 'competetion' between the angels and humans in NGE, its like capture the flag, but the angels dont seem conscious enough, they resemble pawns. (i can already feel the -What? no competition- the only way to decribe it is that the angels have nothign to lose and nothing to gain. Kaurow is the only Angel who consciously recognises this)

The angels dont seem to be able to reproduce and are not even really a species in darwinian terms.

The evasion of destruction--- that seems to be the resourse that humans and angels share, so i do see that point you make.

I would have to say that 3-16 (angels) are like machines acting purely on instinct, doing what they are programmed to do.
17 had mind and intuition but more importantly empathy. He was the only Angel i see as competing for this intangable resoure, the only one with reason to live- which is why he also had a reason to die.

ATh


3foolishmen
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Cap'n: "But by communing with Adam and destroying humanity what would they have to gain from this?"
ATh: "...in light of both Christian and Jewish religion the Angels are already complete. ...no 'competetion' between the angels and humans in NGE..."

ATh, I don't know first-hand how angels are regarded in the Judeo-X'tian traditions; I'll take your word that they are complete. In that context. I don't think this is the case within the context of NGE, though. Angels and Mankind were both born of Lilith as possible candidates for a certain niche. Let's say that complimentation is awarded to the champions of this niche.
Mankind is incomplete. The various cases of the Hedgehog's Dilemma that the central characters face depict this theme repeatedly. Therefore, Angels, originating from the same source, ~!could!~ be incomplete. On a side-note, I'd say that the Angels' attempt to return to their origin in the series, just like Mankind does, is certainly a cue attesting to their incompletion.
With the possibility that Angels in NGE can be incomplete now provided for, consider this dialogue in between Rei and Armisael, the 16th Angel.

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Rei: Who are you? An Angel? The being that we call an Angel?
Armisael: Don't you want to be unified with me?
Rei: No. I am I. Not you.
Armisael: Hmm, but you shall. It's too late. I give you part of my mind. I give you this emotion. Pain, see, your mind has pain.
Rei: Pain? no, something different. Loneliness. Yes. Loneliness.
Armisael: Loneliness? I don't understand.
Rei: Do you hate being alone? We are many, though you hate being alone. That's called loneliness.
Armisael: That's your mind. Full of sadness. That's your own mind.
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Both Mankind and Angels are incomplete. Both struggle with the 'human' condition(the angels with their own version, I assume).

ATh: "...the angels dont seem conscious enough..."
I don't think you need to be conscious to compete, much less engage in any sort of behavior.

ATh: "The angels dont seem to be able to reproduce and are not even really a species in darwinian terms."
Reproduction aside, which, btw, Iruel does, the Angels do seem to have evolved into various forms. They do come in a variety of shapes and sizes, from the rather standard limb-and-legged style, the arachnid style, winged, or to hybrid amorphous types. In addition they are adapted to suit a given environment as well. Some are aquatic, some designed to withstand high temperatures and pressures, others can survive above the stratosphere. To me, the law of evolution and adaptation seem to apply to them fairly well.

ATh: "I would have to say that 3-16 (angels) are like machines acting purely on instinct, doing what they are programmed to do."
Daresay you that mankind is any different?
And like I said above, you don't need to be conscious to compete for survival. Instinct usually performs better in that regard.

Cap'n: "to pretty much every religion out there once a person dies thier soul is judged based on their previous actions and if their good deeds outweigh the bad ones they go to Heaven, Nirvana, Valhalla or wherever their heaven is."
Don't confuse mythology with religion. ^^; Nirvana is nothing like heaven, too. Eschatology is a concept embedded primarily in the Judeo-X'tian tradition and Islam. Likewise is the concept of a linear timeline, and a LOT of religions do not subscribe to this view. Consequently, these lots of religions do not have a concept of a Dies Irae.

Cap'n: "They have the names of the Angels which backs that up."
Circumstantial.
Cap'n: "Notice how if you think about it enough all of their names make perfect sense and coinsidence like that isn't too likely."
Likewise.

Cap'n: "The names must of been said in the dead sea scrolls cuz where else would the proper and rather suitng names come from?"
I hope you're aware that the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Dead Sea Scrolls of Seele are ~!NOT!~ the same? Your argument that the Dead Sea Scrolls of Seele warrant the angels' names kind of hints that you're not. The DSS of Seele is totally fictional, a figment of imagination conjured up by Anno, in the name of the real DSS unearthed by the Dead Sea in '47(48?). The names of the angels are totally circumstantial, and do not have any value as support. Like I said earlier, the divine hierarchy was just a convenient system to use.

Cap'n: "Our good friends at Gainax probably realized that and took that into consideration when producing the series."
Well, which is it? Do you support a multi-system background to the series or not? You seem to jump in between multi- and single system at your convenience.


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 12:16:34 am)
203.21.47.3
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Apposels
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i dont really have a great deal to say but...

i do not subscribe to the angels been born of Lilith (but this has been discussed elsewhere).

I see the Angels of NGE as single unities, each is different, a species with only an individual, no more. It is hard for me to put it across in a way which will make sense. I do not see the 3rd and 14th mating to produce say the 16th. There is a seperate mould for each angel (contained within Adam)
True the 11th did replicate, but its replication was only in that its got smarter, more adapted, better fit for its enviroment, however there was never the possibility of speciation (though this itself seems to be an interesting topic- it may have been possible?)

With regards to christain/jewish religion the angels are complete
But i can really only give a biased perspective- what i have been told.

The Angels are forces- and can really only be thought of as existing in their Order-- ie Seraphim- the Fiery serpents of Geburah. The Seraphim are perfect within this sphere but have no possibility of evolution, they embody one force and one force only. The Archangel Khameal governs the Seraphim and has some degree of evolution possible, Archangels thus have a persona which allows them to communicate with man as well as some degree of freedom ( the angels have no freedom of will)

of course there will be people out there who say different. The stance within the catholic church is 3 fold i think. ie 1) there imaginary but useful to dedicate the mind.
2) they are real but are not independant personalities (Archangels here)
or 3) they are real and independant beings of another order.


Next, the quote you give (lovely as it is) does not fully back your argument.
God is perfect and complete, but humans strive to become unified with Him/Her/It.
To take your example, the 16th may still be complete and still offer Rei the chance of unification. (as i say they are pefect within their sphere- they dont know everthing though)

Finally you ask me - Are humans no more than machines doing as we are programmed? I must say no i do not believe that (somethings are cetainly predisposed) but to answer why- my own personal belief is that we are here to do something but we are not doing it. Yes, i believe there is a purpose to life and i believe it can be known individualy, but presantly we are naughty -not doing what we should be- the program is not predetermined.

(also you may have notice i quite like Freud and his attitude is that people are like machines so i am aware of the argument for it, old and new)

Back to NGE this purpose could be the core which is missing, that something which lost has been filled with fear, shame, guilt ect.ect.
Unfortunatly third impact did not seem to be able to replace this core, alot was learnt and fragments may have been recovered but the core itself still remained obscure.
(Perhaps if this core is recovered then the program will be activated and we do exactly as we are programmed to do???)

ATh


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 11:26:17 am)
216.209.145.115
Reply | Edit | Del foolish times 3
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3foolishmen, give it up, you think you are some kinda big man and cutting apart someone's arguments? You are a bigger ------- than I first anticipated. But here's my defense so all may realize what a complete jerkoff you are who is just trying to prove that he's smarter than everybody else when you're not and just bullshit stuff.

First of all somebody obviously has a very different view of heaven than I do. Along with most religions. Now I am a christian and I know what Heaven is. It is a place where your soul achieves peace and may rest. Nirvana is just that. Once completing the sections of the wheel of life a Buddest can achieve Nirvana once completing the wheel of life or something like that. I'd have to check up on it. Basically they can be defined as the same thing. A place where a soul can achieve pure peace and happyness.

Also about that dead sea scrolls thing. I knew that the real one's haven't been translated or at least released much like the fatima prophecy but I'm not going to get into that now. Apparently somebody got so wrapped up in shooting down other's arguments that they forgot about the fact that although SEELE'S dead sea scrolls are fictional they said what they said. No matter what Gainax made up for what they say it doesn't change the fact they predicted the coming of the angels and that was where the names for the angels came from. Next time, before you try to upstage someone take time to let what they said sink in and understand it before countering with a dumbass attempt at attacking my theories.

I don't know what the hell that jumping between systems remark was all about. I stick with my belief in the Christian God but also respect other religious beliefs.

Also to all those of you reading this. About threefoolishmen. personally I wouldn't listen to him. I don't find much credibility in someone who thinks the Angels are from Lilith when Kaworu clearly said that they were born from Adam. Just keep that in mind.

Threefoolishmen. I tried to reason with you and thought we could get along but now it seems like you aren't willing to keep such an alliance.

Edited by Capt Jake at: 5/12/00 11:26:17 am


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 2:29:04 pm)
168.122.7.78
Reply | Edit | Del Re: foolish times 3
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My, my, I keep forgetting how touchy you are. You take things too personally. If you can't take criticism, at least don't retaliate with personal insults. Take my advice, you don't get far doing that.

"First of all somebody obviously has a very different view of heaven than I do."

Yes, obviously. If memory serves me correctly, X'tianity teaches that Heaven's doors are not open to all, only those who repent before the Last Judgment, and subscribe to the view that Jesus is the Saviour, will be admitted. Others will go to Hell. On the other hand, Buddhism teaches that nirvana is a stated of mind, an awareness, that frees somebody from the cycle of reincarnation. It has nothing to do with belief. It has nothing to with g(G)od(s)(technically, Buddhism isn't a 'religion', because there is no god). It definitely has nothing to do with Heaven.

Cap'n said: "They are God's angels sent to test humanity as was said in the dead sea scrolls. If they aren't sent from God then what are they? Tell me that."

Get your argument in perspective. Your point#1: Seele's scrolls contained some angels' names and predicted their arrival. True. Your point#2: The angels are sent by God. My point: #1 is circumstantial to #2 and does not provide support.

In addition, your statements like, "The names must of been said in the dead sea scrolls cuz where else would the proper and rather suitng names come from?", made me think that perhaps you weren't certain about the Dead Sea Scrolls, given how uncertain and general your knowledge about religion tends to be on occasion. My apologies, I was only making sure.

Cap'n: "I don't know what the hell that jumping between systems remark was all about."

I think you do. Respecting other religions has nothing to do with your argument. I think intelligent people who find NGE interesting already have a scope wide enough to respect religions, even if it isn't their belief. You said earlier that, "The point is that if you don't think that the angels are from God then you haven't been paying too much attention to the NGE storyline." This is your contention, right?
God, and religion, isn't the only theme NGE touches upon. In fact, no attempt is made to take sides with ANY religion, NOR define "angels" as messengers of g(G)od(s). I can think of several pagan interpretations of NGE, psychological(oedipal tragedy), philosophical(existentialism and karmic transcendence[hmm, that's something to think about, Cap'n]), scientific(evolutionary theory). In fact, NGE strikes me as least religious among these systems, considering the weight given to the development of the pagan ideas.
Note: as the title implies, Neon-Genesis, is Anno's rewritten version of Genesis and Revelations. I believe rewriting the scriptures is blasphemy, punishable by Condemnation, according to Judaism(X'tianity?).

Cap'n: "I don't find much credibility in someone who thinks the Angels are from Lilith when Kaworu clearly said that they were born from Adam."

Adam, just like Mankind, was born of Lilith. Angels were born of Adam. Ergo, Angels were born of Adam.

Cap'n: "it seems like you aren't willing to keep such an alliance."

Alliance? What alliance? I'm not on anybody's side, I'll criticize what deserves such, and I expect nothing less for myself. That doesn't include personal insults, for which I think you owe me an apology for the usual volley of and obviously libelous statements.


Pen2
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 5:11:15 pm)
203.101.17.56
Reply | Edit | Del
And the score comes in...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3foolishmen : 2

Captain Jake : 0

<edited>
(sorry, couldn't seem to shut up )
----"Gyaaa" -Penイ

Edited by Pen2 at: 5/12/00 5:11:15 pm


eva2000
NERV-Commander-(Admin)
(5/12/00 8:51:31 pm)
198.142.149.113
Reply | Edit | Del Re: And the score comes in...
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**cough ..cough ** come on don't add fuel to the fire

i thought the personal attacks ended back in the old threads ?

please


The Nondescript
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 8:56:21 pm)
129.127.222.6
Reply | Edit | Del It's the Gospel for the New Genesis!!!8)
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Eaze up Captain sensitive.

Nirvana can be reached by the living, Christian 'heaven' certainly can not.

On another note I must lean to Adam being the first or at least being created
at the same time as Lillith. Adam is the first being in all forms of Judaic texts
I have heard of. Lillith is never the originator.

On the quote, a brilliant Eva moment, but along with other scenes, very difficult to interpret.

Who is feeling the loneliness? Rei? Angel? both?
The Shito seem to take random form. Like stinji in the last ep.
Are they seperate in their former dimension? Or merged, completed?



Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 9:27:24 pm)
206.172.239.19
Reply | Edit | Del It actually translates better to "New Age"
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Well first of all Pen^2, if you wanna tally up the score don't forget to take into account my hundreds of other theores and questions I have answered for people. Then people would see the real difference. Second of all I never once said that Heaven had to come when you are dead. Sure Christianity tells us that much but I don't necessarily buy into that. Heaven can be achieved on earth if you just think positive and take everything with stride and that is one moral to Neon Genesis Evangelion that I hope somebody other than me picked up on. Second of all I never heard of Lilith as the originator. Adam was the first period as it usually is. Also threefoolishmen, I am never going to appoligize for anything. Personally if you were to get hit by a bus and die tomorrow I can't say I'd mind much. If a stranger offers you a ride in their car I suggest you take it =) I have nothing to apoligize for and therefore shall not apologize.


eva2000
NERV-Commander-(Admin)
(5/12/00 9:53:43 pm)
198.142.149.113
Reply | Edit | Del Re: It actually translates better to "New Age"
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come on Cap the last sentences weren't called for...

i hate to start editing or censoring inappropriate posts....




3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/13/00 4:11:37 am)
168.122.14.37
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Apposels
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ATh: "True the 11th did replicate, but its replication was only in that its got smarter, more adapted, better fit for its enviroment, however there was never the possibility of speciation (though this itself seems to be an interesting topic- it may have been possible?)"

I'm sure this is familiar, but just to raise a point, reproduction doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. Many multi-cellular, and most single-cellular organisms and some plants reproduce asexually. Although Iruel is described as a colony of nanomachines, I think it can be compared to viruses. To the extent that they do reproduce and adapt, I'd say they do qualify as organisms, just as viruses do, despite the fact that they don't conform to all of the criteria of life(that definition of life is obsolete in my opinion).
I really can't add much to the characteristics of angels as they appear in the Jewish and X'tain faiths. Taken this far, it all rests on how an individual chooses to construct his worldview, and I guess that's that.

"Are humans no more than machines doing as we are programmed? I must say no i do not believe that..."

Like I said, that's that. ^^; I think I've already made my stance about that issue earlier.

"Back to NGE this purpose could be the core which is missing..."

Interesting speculation. Extending on some of the ideas people have forwarded in the thread about the Evas' cores, it does fit in with the idea that the Eva's cores are empty, inactive, or cases. Further ideas?

The Nondescript & ATh: The translated passage comes from the Eva Sage's page found here. It seemed like you thought I did it, credit goes to Botchan-Bird.

"...the 16th may still be complete and still offer Rei the chance of unification..."
"Who is feeling the loneliness? Rei? Angel? both?"

Both, probably. I took Armisael's words, "I give you part of my mind. I give you this [pain]", as indication that the human condition also applies to angels(or to Armisael, at least).


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/14/00 12:10:44 am)
203.21.47.3
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Apposels
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From the script (and i was meaning it is lovely in NGE) i take it that the 16th does not feel loneliness, that Rei is filled with this.

Even in christianity, Angels can feel pain (and still be complete).

As the 16th says Loneliness no that is your mind, it fills your soul (or something similar)

I see Rei as being torn between Humanity and Angelicity (new word to be added to our dictionaries). If she was full angel she would not be lonely as each angel is a seperate entity. Humans however are not seperate entities, we are only individual due to Our A.T. feilds. (here i believe an A.T. feild offers humans mental protection, but offeres the angels physical protection, the feild itself is the same)

One thing i notice is that the angels never make any attempt to communicate with one another, not even Karou when face to face with Lilith communicates WITH her

(maybe their communication is touch - which adds light to my a.t. field rant.)

i was going somewhere but its gone for now
so ill go onto my last point

The core aspect- i was not thinking in relation to the Evas but that is a very interesting point (thanks, this is what the MB is for) With a soul and a core the Evas are complete, just like the angels, only human
(this means more to me but i wont go on)

ATh



3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/16/00 12:06:32 pm)
168.122.12.211
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Apposels
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ATh: "(this means more to me but i wont go on)"

Being nosy, why not?


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/16/00 11:37:43 pm)
203.21.47.3
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Apposels
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably becuase it was getting late and i didn't think i could explain it well enough.

Of course now im not too sure what i meant (oops)

This might also be due to a change in perception. But i will try to explain how i see it now.

I have said some where that i think Yui and thus Gendo had a purpose for the Eva's which did not include the destruction of all life.

Maybe the Eva's would be shells or new bodies for humans, New Form.

This is not going well at all
hmmm
I was going on about communication, A.T.Feilds and seperate entities.

The Angels are complete, an Eva with a core and soul is complete. The barrier of mind is displaced and becomes a physical barrier, the circumfrence of the sphere of mind is removed, so the hole (the empty core) of longing disappears also.

these are just random thoughts comming into my head, but i seem to be missing the point of communication, and it seems that that was a major factor.

Maybe later

ATh
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