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Old 01-07-2000, 04:54 AM   #1   [permalink]
eva2000
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Access
NERV-Technician
(5/21/00 5:40:54 pm)
203.21.78.66
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Simpathy
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I question I pose to you... can we simpathize for Gendo's cause is all he put Shinji thought and the rest of the planet in fact for the love of his wife. I am sure he has killed many of people just to get his plan into action. For instance I am pretty sure that he was the one who ortharized Ritsuko to change Jet Alones programming. He was willing to have Jet Alone have a nuclear meltdown.. except Misato plan changed that. For all this bad cold side of Gendou be justified for the goals that Gendo had to see his wife again.

Also can we blame Keel.... he is a person who is punished by living forever having his body rot around him.... he wishes for death.... can he really be blamed for his actions?
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Yuusuke
EVA-Pilot
(5/21/00 10:19:43 pm)
24.165.88.67
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Wasn't Kaji the one who changed the plans for JA?
And. . .I wouldn't simpathize with Gendo or Keel.
I might get into my reasons at a later time, but right now, it's too late.


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/21/00 10:55:11 pm)
203.21.47.3
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I am not too sure if sympathise is the right word,
I see Gendo's actions as noble in a way, well not his actions but his reason.

It also seems that the battle between humans and angels was unavoidable, so he used this as a platform to further his own ends, of course this changed once Yui died.

As for Keel, he seems to distant within the series to understand his motives. I say this with the thought that christian religion is not the driving factor in mind.

in other words if Jesus was to return, then Keel is the jesus as it is through his senario that humanity evolves to a more perfect being, but jesus is not even mentioned in the series.

As the topic is titled sympathise i would ask who do you think you could sympathise with most?
Hmmmm?

ATh


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/22/00 7:26:29 am)
216.209.137.17
Reply | Edit | Del Gendo must be shot!
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Gendo is a cold hearted individual who cut off all ties to humanity. All his life he used people to get his way and never thought twice about it. Nothing justifies neglecting your son. He definitely killed people in his quest. He most likely put Kaji to death so we know that much. Also about the JA. If you need to question whether or not Gendo was behind it you weren't paying much attention. Gendo, Ritsuko and that other spy were in on it. At first I thought was Kaji who Gendo was talking to on the phone at the beginning but I checked the voice credits and it wasn't the same person. Kaji had nothing to do with it. Also he wasn't going to make it melt down. They altered the program to make it come to a near meltdown then have all systems go back to normal. Remember how Misato nearly died in there but the program went back to normal. She even said "but the miracle was set up by somebody". At the end you see Ritsuko and that other spy guy in Gendo's office and they said that aside from Katsuragi's operation, everthing went according to the plan."


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/22/00 10:54:50 am)
168.122.12.152
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Cap'n: "They altered the program to make it come to a near meltdown then have all systems go back to normal."

This seems pretty clear to me. The "meltdown" of JA was staged by Nerv.
Consider the context. Nerv has been under criticism by the G7 nations because of the astronomical costs they incur; already the U.N. had expanded their budget to deal with the damages from the battle with the 5th angel, and in order to dispose the remains of the 4th and 5th angels.
At the beginning of ep7, Gendou is attending a meeting about the proceedings of construction of the Eva series. After the meeting, Gendou and an Asian guy(the Chinese delegate, I think) are discussing how it went, and the Asian says that all nations except the U.S. have allowed for the budget for the construction of Unit 06, and it was only a matter of time before the U.S. would join the agreement. He also mentions that "his country" will join contruction starting with Unit 08.
When Nerv is trying to get the Eva series project going against the temporary objection of the U.S., a commercial firm tries to take a chunk out of the "anti-Angel market" pie. Gendou probably knows that his competition is inferior in performance, and decides to put an end to his competitor's life by sabotaging the inauguration ceremony.
BUT, he wasn't going to take the sabotage operation far enough to actually detonate the nuclear reactor inside JA. Like Cap'n says, he probably ordered Ritsuko to program JA to feign a meltdown, but shut off just before the reactor exploded. Ritsuko definitely knows about the sabotage operation, because just before Misato takes off from the ceremony hall, Ritsuko tells her that her efforts will be futile, and warns her not to go. Misato's "intervention" would not have changed the course of events even if she had decided that it was probably not worth the effort.


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/22/00 12:19:18 pm)
216.209.137.16
Reply | Edit | Del Fine sabotage indeed
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I agree with you fully except for one thing 3f. I do not belive that it was Ritsuko who reprogrammed the computer. I know that she knew about this but it wasn't her. When would she of had the time to do it. She was at the show. It was the other spy on the phone with Gendo at the beginning. Remember how at the end Ritsuko, Gendo and another agent were in his office. I'm pretty sure it was the agent who did that and he was the man on the phone at the beginning who said it was being taken care of.


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/22/00 12:51:57 pm)
168.122.12.152
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Cap'n: "I'm pretty sure it was the agent who did that and he was the man on the phone at the beginning who said it was being taken care of."

That, Mon Capitan, makes more sense.


Access
NERV-Technician
(5/22/00 5:37:38 pm)
203.21.78.66
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Re: Fine sabotage indeed
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Well we have diversed from Sympathy to who blow up Jet Alone.... I knew I mentioning that would stir up some controvery when I typed it.... but who cares what we talk about, except EVA2000 who likes order.

Well I think Ritsuko was sent because of her expertise in Computers to sabotachge Jet Alone, anyone from Nerv could of been their just to see what Jet Alone was... no their was a reason for sending Ritsuko the top computer mind at Nerv. Kaji... well it has been dicussed... but Kaji was not introduced into EVA until the next episode and he was in Germany wasnt he? Thats when he arrived with Asuka.

And back to the sympathy topic... me and 3f discussed this over ICQ and couldnt convince each other either way... but I believe that Gendo was well aware of what would happen putting his wife in Unit01. I dont believe it was an accident at all. It was discussed by Fugitsu and Yui under a tree;
Futgutsu:"It doesnt mean you have to be the test subject"
Yui:"Thats the way things go. That is why I stayed, for Seele and for Shinji"

It was all planned and I think if Yui knew and Fugitsu knew Gendo would defently know about it. Also Yui also said "I gave all materials to Ikari". Later on during 2nd Impact I believe Yui said to Shinji in his head "Yes Humans can only live mortallally on this planet. But, EVA can live forever with the human soul that lives within its body. Even after 500 billion years have pasdt, the earth, moon, and even the sun have disappeared, it will still exists as long as one person is alive. Although it will be very lonely, as long as that person still lives...." She knew bout the consequences but "did it for Shinji" to save his life and watch over him when ever he was in combat. I dont think Gendo liked the idea, I believe it was Yui's choice... thats why Gendo became so mean and touch... he would not stop at nothing to get Yui back. I think he knew about it. Thats why I feel sorry for Gendo. Is their any proof he was mean before Yui died or entered Uniot-01.... no.... so maybe he was ambious but not like he is today. He did love his son... but did not have his wife at his side so pushed him away. In EoE Gendo says to Yui that he feared Shinji and didnt think he deserved his respect. So I think he only puashed Shinji away because he was so desperate to see Yui that he lost his relationship with his son.
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3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/25/00 2:32:54 pm)
168.122.16.74
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Some points I want to raise that I never got around to before.

Point 1: Gendou is not evil.
Sure, he's a jerk, and certainly not a model father. Nevertheless, there's nothing inherently ~!evil!~ about him. He strikes me as a hard-boiled realist, somebody who can accurately and objectively judge a situation, and who can take action, whatever the means, in order to deal with whatever situation that calls for attention.
The only exception seems to be situations which involve interaction with people who are affectionately bonded with him. In other words, friends and lovers. He basically has none, because, in these cases, he is extremely cautious, to the extent that people around him perceive him as a cold, distant person. His repertoire of actions somehow lacks reciprocation of affection, or at least the expression of it. It seems to me that he tries to shut out outsiders from his personal space as much as possible.
Yui understood this aspect of him, and received him as is. She wins his trust, he lowers his defenses to her, but ONLY to her(she probably meant this childish and sheepish side of him, when she described him as "cute" to Fuyutsuki). She even took a liking of him, which shows that there must have been an attractive side, no matter how odd, to him.

Point 2: Gendou cares for Shinji.
This is a corollary to the first point, but Gendou, deep down inside, in his own maladapted and clumsy way, loves Shinji; something probably Yui showed him how to do. Take a look at Shinji in ep21, at the rough age of three, at the Gehirn headquarters right before Yui's accident. The innocent smile that Shinji shows is obviously that of a child who has been loved for, cared for and nurtured for. Gendou, with the help and guidance of Yui, was able to provide sufficient parenting for Shinji.
It was Shinji, suffering from a sense of psuedo-abandonment, who ran away from his father and the object of study that absorbed his mother. Of course, Gendou, without Yui, was totally incapable of providing for his child, and ends up leaving Shinji in the care of his teacher. Gendou is just about as distraught as Shinji, and he wanders off whereabouts unknown for a week, before he returns to Gehirn with the decision to start the HIP, with the sole objective of seeing Yui again.
The viewers of the series are brought under the illusion that Gendou heartlessly abandoned his son, and it is only later that the viewers learn that there was more to the story than that.

Gendou is a tragic figure, somebody desperately wanting companionship, yet not possessing the means to contact other people. He is a hopeless addict of Yui, in the sense that she was the only person whom he was able to relate to, and she was the only portal leading to the outer world through which he was able to relate to other people in a humane fashion. In his quest for Yui, he ends up totally neglecting his very own son.
In this sense, I can say I sympathize with him.


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/25/00 11:34:56 pm)
203.21.47.3
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3f

Hmmm,

can i steal that last post of yours for my section of the characters for NGE,

ill put your name on it of course

and if you have any more of this in you, i would love that too

ATh


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/26/00 2:09:05 am)
168.122.14.115
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Surely. Please have the courtesy to make whatever passages you use traceable to this board or to me through email.

I've said pretty much what I wanted to about this subject, I think trying to expanding will only ruin what I have said so far. ^^;


Access
NERV-Technician
(5/26/00 2:57:26 pm)
203.21.78.66
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Re: Sympathy
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Hehehe I thought I was the only one ripping quotes from here for sites and other boards... lol
Access


eva2000
NERV-Commander-(Admin)
(5/26/00 7:03:05 pm)
198.142.59.229
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i am honoured if anyone quotes my board as well

http://www.eva2000.com/board/ is the best url to the board ...
George
Webmaster Eva2000.com
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A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/26/00 11:34:26 pm)
203.21.47.3
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No we are certainly not alone, but i try to give credit where it is due.

Well, the info side is sort of almost ready to nearly get started, and the image side is not even there yet, so it will be a while.

You dont mind that email address being used? Thanks

ATh
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