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Old 01-07-2000, 05:00 AM   #1   [permalink]
eva2000
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Question

Eva Unit 02
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(5/23/00 5:41:14 am)
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7th Angel
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Hey When Eva unit 01 and 02 fight Israfel ( 7th angel ) and got beaten why didnt tha angel rip the eva apart or sumting?
it just dumped the evas.


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/23/00 6:29:05 am)
206.172.239.55
Reply | Edit | Del It's simple simon
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the reason is because the angels arent out to cause destruction. They only want to return to Adam. Once a threat is out of the way no need to go overboard and destroy it. They just see the Evas as an obstacle between them and Adam. Once the Eva's were incapacitated there was no need to destroy it fully. Also the Angels all seem to have different personalities. Sacchiel is the only Angel which decided to self destruct. Zeruel was pissed at Unit-01 cuz it just got it's ass kicked so it wanted to destroy Unit-01. Israfel made short work of the Evas and wasn't hurt badly so it wouldn't see the Eva's as much of a threat. Their mistake.


Covax
NERV-Technician
(5/23/00 6:47:46 am)
142.194.242.252
Reply | Edit | Del Simple Simon met a pie man, going to the fair
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I've got a better reason:
The Angels have a sense of huomor.


Eva Unit 02
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(5/23/00 10:08:16 am)
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Re: 7th Angel
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ok thanks Capt jake and Covax

~ Eva 02 ~


Access
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(5/23/00 6:11:18 pm)
203.21.78.66
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Re: 7th Angel
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Sorry now I am just BEING VERY picky. No one cares about this point but me... hehehe. But would just like to add something to that. Cap when you descibe soemthing it is a very casual message thats fine, thats great. This seems like a casual thread... covax used humour. Cap you descibed Angels having personalltys like humans... but I think it would be far differnt we as the lillim ate the fruit of knowedge and have the ability to think and have oppion and "be pissed" at something. ANgels did just have their aim and went for it... no thought went into it... all are under the will of God (I beleive their was divine intervetion).
Access


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/23/00 11:11:34 pm)
203.21.47.3
Reply | Edit | Del Re: 7th Angel
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Not too true Cap,

the Third angel is busy destroying stuff, then 01 pops up, it turns to face 01 and then attacks.

the 16th attacks as well- infact seeing as Rei could not even wound it with her rifle it would seem that if it wanted to it could have just walsest by down to Adam (Lilith). It also attacked 01 when it sensed 01's A.T.Feild.

The reason why it didnt just ripped up the Evas is because the UN dropped an N^2 mine on it, giving NERV a few days to regroup and attack.

ATh


Ura
NERV-Technician
(5/24/00 12:53:03 am)
203.29.192.74
Reply | Edit | Del Re: 7th Angel
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ATh is right shortly after the Angel(s) threw the EVAs around the UN used an N2 mine on it. The question is why didnt they just carve it up while it was incapacitated, instead of going through the whole choreography routine.


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/24/00 7:20:47 am)
206.172.239.151
Reply | Edit | Del Angels got personality smartypants
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Sacchiel was only busting stuff up because it was pissed off, you'd be too if the UN shot stuff at you. It was looking for Adam and would have to tear through some stuff to get to him. Also that fact that it attacked the Eva was proof of some thought. It figured that these people dont want it there and since they tried to hurt it so many times before that this was just another attack. Even by the way that the Angel fought the Eva it showed personality, a mindless drone would never think to poke out an eye, crush the wrist and chuck it away. It knew what it was doing, a mindless drone would just jump on it and rip it apart. It also chose to die, none of the other Angels did that. And Kaworu, look at him and tell me he had no personality. The whole point that he was in the form of a human and not some big monster was to prove that the Angels weren't evil and they had personality like us. Sure they want to get to Adam, but it's more of a sort of instinct. Much like humans have a sex drive only this instinct is much much stronger. Not to start another debate but their individual personalities(at least the ones who showed personality) could be evidence of them being the actual Angels sent by God. They are there to test humanity so each one would get more and more difficult. They were life forms like us and when a lifeform sees a threat it has to fight it off. Look at Bardiel, It was just looking for Adam when these Eva's come at it. It has to destroy them of it'll die. The one after it Zeruel diced up Unit-02 because it hit it with a barrage of firepower. I'm sure it would of bypassed the Eva had it just sat there. Also as they would watch their bretherin be defeated from the heavens they would know their enemy and attack accordingly. If you are still bent on that whole fruit of knowlege stuff whatever it is then think. You don't need much intelligence to have personality. There have been tests that have shown animals to have personalities. Just watch them and you'd realize that. Over time they would reaize their Enemy. Maybe like an animal they would sense the Evas as another Angel thus, competition to get to Adam. I have presented you with numerous possibilities off the top of my head. Next time you are going to try and shoot sombody down think about it a little more.


Access
NERV-Technician
(5/24/00 6:43:27 pm)
203.21.78.66
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Re: Angels got personality smartypants
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I dont think the angels even had the capcity to be pissed off or to have any form of pain or feeling.....

Except Kaoru, but ONLY because he is the Angel of Freewill so had the oppion to decide...
Access


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/25/00 7:50:52 am)
216.209.137.6
Reply | Edit | Del You're getting sloppy
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It never said anywhere that Kaoru was the angel of freewill. You actually think that "I think" statement is going to override the proofs I have presented in the past? And to think,you were the person who used to get on my case for not backing up enough. I hope that's not all the proof you have cuz I know what all of the Angels are Angels of and it never said which one Kaworu was. Where did you hear Angel of freewill?


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/25/00 9:47:39 am)
168.122.15.118
Reply | Edit | Del Angels and Personalities
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Getting back to the original issue, the Evas didn't receive any further damage because the U.N. Forces intervened. I think they gave the 7th Angel all the N2 mines they had, but still only managed to destroy 28% of its substance.

About Angels having personalities, on a mediatory note there's one point worth bringing to attention: that there is very little actually known as fact about the Angels. Behaviorally speaking, I think that any assumptions made about Angels having any kind of temperament, such as less or more aggressive, based on observations of their behavior, is easily dismissable. There is absolutely no way to be factually certain that they have "motives" which reside in some kind of self-aware, self-conscious "mind", so to speak. The supposition that they feel "emotions" they way people do, and sense the environment the way people do, is totally without grounds(btw, emotions are only pre-programmed or learned response patterns to stimuli originating from the very basic regions of our brains, very little of the higher brain functions are involved in emotions). What Misato says in response to the HIP Committee's questioning captures heart of this point:

Quote:
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Committee Member A: Was the Angel interested in the human spirit and mind?
Misato: I am not able to answer that question.
Do Angels have a concept of mind?
Do they understand human thoughts?
This is absolutely unknown.
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Actually, their behavior seems to indicate their "self-less"ness. To me, all the Angels seem to be "driven" by some kind of pre-programmed "instinct", and their behavior is predestined, only a result of how their "insticts" are programmed to respond to external stimuli.
For example, the 3rd Angel self-destructs, when it judges that it won't come out of the fight alive. The fifth Angel shows typical respond-to-stimuli behavior, totally lacking anything indicating temperament. The 10th Angel's final mode of attack is to plunge itself towards Nerv HQ. Iruel continues to evolve with only one objective: to gain control of the Magi and self-destruct.
The later Angels seem to follow drives other than the seek-and-destroy instinct of the lesser Angels(another indication that the Angels are governed by the Law of Evolution). Bardiel searches for and attaches itself onto Unit 03, for whatever reason. Arael appears to probe a human mind. Armisael actually communicates with a human. Well, sort of, Rei isn't fully human. Finally, the 17th Angel comes to see and judge for himself whether the human race deserves survival over "his" race.
Seems to me that returning to Adam becomes less of a priority as the Angels highten in evolution.

Finally, Cap'n: "[Sachiel] also chose to die, none of the other Angels did that."

The 17th did.


Access
NERV-Technician
(5/25/00 10:15:20 pm)
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Re: Angels and Personalities
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To Cap...

we discussed angels names in a past thread called 'angels names'

Sachiel - "Angel of Water"
Shamshiel - "Angel of the Sun"
Ramiel - "Angel of Thunder"
Gagiel - "Angel of Fish"
Israphel - "Angel of Music"
Sandalphon -"Angel of Embryos"
Matriel -"Angel of Rain"
Tzachquiel - "Angel of The Sky"
Iroul - "Angel of Fear"
Leriel - "Angel of Night"
Bardiel - "Angel of Hail"
Arael - "Angel of Birds"
Almisael "Angel of the Womb"
Tabris "Angel of Free Will"

Have a look at the past thread... we discuss the relevance of each one their... Pen2 gave me these...

Well just think here.... Angels got the fruit of Life... and Mankind got the fruit of Knowedge... this was mentioned in EVA so is relevamct. What would distinquish Angel from man if Angels could have knowedge and have emotions like we do... thats what seperates us from them... we are differnt beings... you could say they are a more higher evolved being... God called becoming intellgenct the ultimate sin... so this was a bad step in the evolutionary ladder in his eyes... 3rd Impact makes us the perfect being better than angels.

Hwever I would perceive that an angels emotions are rather similar to the ones that would occur in the lillim after 3rd Impact.... and they would be almost nothing.... incomaprible to mankind... without hate and pain.... their would be no love.... no sin... no greed...no joy... we would be content with just existsing.... and thats what the angels are... however they have been given a goal by God to see if mankind was ready to reach a higher level of evolution...... God gave them the 'will' to reach adam by any means necessary.... so the angels just did so... using evey technique their body allowed....
Access


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/25/00 11:29:30 pm)
203.21.47.3
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Angels and Personalities
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Access, your are still making a few fallacies,

nowhere in NGE is it said tha the Angels got the fruit of life and humans got the fruit of knowledge (to my knowledge)

and if it is it may have been said as a metaphor.

Also the 15th doesnt even seem interested in reaching Adam, and this may even apply to the 16th as well.

Perhaps these two were just forerunners to the 17th, gathering information.

also, becoming intellegent and having knowledge of good and evil is not the same thing. And this is very metaphoric, though i suppose you are entitled to take a literal interpretation of the bible, but be warned, there are many contridictions.

I would agree with 3f about the seeming lack of self consciousness the angels show, until the 15th that is.

ATh


Ura
NERV-Technician
(5/26/00 2:38:39 am)
203.29.192.74
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Angels and Personalities
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I think that he is a bit far ahead of himself with the fruit of life and knowledge reference, it is in fact in EoE that this is mentioned and explored.

I have a theory that the 25th and 16th Angels were sent to attack Rei and not go after Adam, both attack the soul of the pilot and teh fact that Asuka was attacked nby the 15th is an accident rei was supposed to take the point position


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/26/00 6:43:10 am)
206.172.239.55
Reply | Edit | Del Hmmmmmm,
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Well first of all Access your interpretations of some of the names are different from what I heard.

First of all Shamshel is the angel of day, not sun as I heard it.

Israfel was angel of art from my understanding,

Sandalphon was angel of birth,

Bardiel was the angel of blood, that makes much more sense than hail

I also never heard of what Tabris was so I will make no comment.

3f:Finally, Cap'n: "[Sachiel] also chose to die, none of the other Angels did that."
The 17th did.

I stand corrected, I forgot about him.

Also I don't use take the bible too literally when it comes to Eva because that whole fruit of life and intelligence thing could of been a metaphor. However the bible could explain why the Lance of Longuinus is so damn big. As we all should know the lance is the one that stabbed Jesus to make sure he was dead. I heard from a religious friend that humans according to the bible that humans used to be huge, maybe huge like Eva's. We got smaller as we fell from grace. It could explain the entire artificial human Evangelion thing that sinse they are artificial they are like humans that have not yet fell from grace because they are clones from Adam, the first human being. Rei would be so small because she was made from Lilith and Yui so she would definitely fall from grace being human and all. It's just interesting food for thought.


Eva Unit 02
EVA-Pilot
(5/26/00 8:00:01 am)
63.25.52.96
Reply | Edit | Del 7th Angel
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hey guys, Sorry i could'nt reply for tha past few days sum1 deleted sum Important Files on windows ( dam )
some errors happen :-| anyway thanks..

By the way any1 here seen Evanjellyon or Evangelion Wazzup? der edited Eva stuff in mpg ( Badly edited )
i got it from dalnet. well thanks cya


Access
NERV-Technician
(5/26/00 3:28:39 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: 7th Angel
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Well I dont know about the names... I just got them from Pen2.

And about this Fruit of Life and Intellgience thing...
Fugitsu: "Angels possess the fuirt of life, Huamns posess the fruit of intellgience... It has both now, EVA-01 is existing like God, now. EVA-01 now posess the seed of both and is transforming to the Tree of Life were all life orginated. Will it become an Ark in the Third Impact? Or will it become the demon that destorys us all? Everything is in the hands of Ikari's son, now."

It was not written as a metaphor... when Unit-01 received both seeds it became the tree and became equal with god.
Access


Pen2
EVA-Pilot
(5/26/00 4:33:34 pm)
203.101.17.56
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Re: 7th Angel
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Yeah if something's wrong with the names Access has, blame me, i gave them to him. But Cap, i wanna know where you got the names from to see how it differs to my source

but anyway - most of the ones you have there seem to be fairly close anyway - bar bardiel, so where did they come from?
----"Gyaaa" -Penē

Edited by Pen2 at: 5/26/00 4:33:34 pm


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/26/00 11:57:36 pm)
203.21.47.3
Reply | Edit | Del Re: 7th Angel
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I stand corrected but will not go quietly,

i still get the feeling it is a metaphor, the fruit of knowledge and the fruit of wisdom.

My reasons for this?
At the moment ----knowledge is Daath (or you might know it as Daas) (lit trans)

and of course Daath does not exist

It is a statmenet to show that Eva has now got both apsects of existance.

Humans are lacking a core, the angels are lacking a circumfrence (here i mean something akin to a social network, or even an outer reason for existance-- Karou caught a glimpse of this through his bonding with Shinji)

Eva 01 now had both, (both of which are spiritual qualities)
From that quote it would seem that the Tree only appears when both are unitied.

i can not quite say what i want to say, it is coming out wrong. so i will go onto my next point.

I do not see the destruction of the Angels as being too permenant. Both Rei and Karou are there at the end, and sort of flank Shinji in a way.

It is almost like Shinji has united the two poles (Angels and Humans), or even Shinji is the point about which this new consciousness centres.

I think i am begining to formulate a theory for the end of EoE in my own mind, it is begining to make sense.

comments?

ATh


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/27/00 3:23:06 am)
168.122.16.196
Reply | Edit | Del Re: 7th Angel
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Pen2: Remember the first half of ep12? The HIP Committee are reviewing the Angels that have attacked so far, and these Angels are labelled with their apporpriate names.
My vague memory tells me that there was another such scene later again, listing and labelling the Angels which have appeared so far. Perhaps it was in ep24(or D: R)?
So the names do appear within the series, only with one exception. Like Cap'n says, the 17th was never directly labelled as "Tabris". If I remember with any accuracy, during the battle with the 17th, the computer consoles that the operators at Nerv HQ use only display "17th Angel" when referring to him too.

Addendum: Personally, though, I'd say that "Tabris" is a fitting name for him, ^^;, given that it really is originally the name for the Angel that governs free will.

Edited by 3foolishmen at: 5/27/00 3:23:06 am


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/27/00 5:01:02 am)
168.122.16.143
Reply | Edit | Del Re: 7th Angel
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Did I just majorly miss the whole point of the issue? You guys were talking about the domains that each angel is said to govern, and not their names as they appear in the series, right? Never mind my previous post.



Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/27/00 6:13:47 am)
206.172.135.143
Reply | Edit | Del Sort of
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Actually I beleive the original point of this thread was why didn't the 7th Angel proceed to tear the Eva's apart once they were incapacitated. I argued that they didn't see the Eva's as much of a threat and besides, they were nuked. I happened to mention how I thought the Angels had distinct personalities(which I still stand behind) and all of this erupted from that. Also Pen^2, I got it from the Reflections of Eva site, It had them listed there. The URL escapes me at the moment.


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/27/00 8:53:36 am)
168.122.13.46
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Sort of
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Reflections of Eva can be found at dk1098.future.easyspace.com/reflections/
and the Angels' page at
dk1098.future.easyspace.c...angel.html

Actually, I was referring to the talk about the Angels and their names and what they govern when I said "the whole issue". Taking amiss a misunderstanding of a mistake, look what happens when you aren't clear enough. ^^;
Anyways, anyways, anyways, getting back to business...


Pen2
EVA-Pilot
(5/27/00 11:43:35 am)
203.101.17.56
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Re: Sort of
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It wasn't the names themselves that Cap had a problem with, it was their spheres "angel of free will" etc.

but anyway thanks for the site. now we just have to work out which is more true
----"Gyaaa" -Penē


Access
NERV-Technician
(5/27/00 2:25:48 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Sort of
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My last statement on angels personalities... well if angels DID have a personallity this would give them the ability to disobey God and actually be able to sin.... and I think the Angels in EVA are incapable of sin... they just follow his orders reguardless. if angels possessed a personality they could have the right of free will and could do anything they wanted... if they did have human emotions like human ones... such as anger and hatred... and God poses to you this order "Alright return home we are doing all this for man, so if you dont make it... yah! Mankind evolves...." if this was the question asked an Angel with a personality would/could refuse it. If an Angel has a personality would what make it differnt from man...
Access


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/28/00 4:28:40 am)
206.172.239.62
Reply | Edit | Del I kinda see what you are getting at here but...
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Well we humans like to think that we have 100% freewill but don't. We still follow insincts. Although we can we dont' choose to stop eating or stop sleeping because these are things we have to do. The Angels are kinda like that with Adam. They have to get to him, much like humans have a sex drive. And the reason we sin is because we have fallen from grace. Angels are "NOT" human(just check the good book) thus have not fallen from grace. They still had personalities however. Kaworu chose to disobey God and we do not yet have conclusive proof that Kaworu is the angel of freewill. Most Angels just didnt show their personalities because their form didn't really allow it to be expressed.


Pen2
EVA-Pilot
(5/28/00 1:37:31 pm)
203.101.17.56
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Re: I kinda see what you are getting at here but...
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"And the reason we sin is because we have fallen from grace."

it may just be me but I thought this was the other way around? we fell from grace because we sinned. The whole story of the fruit of wisdom and whatnot......
----"Gyaaa" -Penē


Access
NERV-Technician
(5/28/00 9:35:36 pm)
203.21.78.66
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Re: I kinda see what you are getting at here but...
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yes good point Pen2... and we only sinned because we got the fruit of wisdom... which was somthing that angels never got.
Access


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/29/00 1:07:33 am)
206.172.239.106
Reply | Edit | Del Enough with thst stupid fruit of wisdom ----!
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Okay, according to the Bible yes we did fall from grace once we ate the fruit and continued to sin after that becaues duh, we fell from grace. Remember though, according to the Bible it was Adam who ate the fruit and what was he but the first Angel. One thing you people have to learn is that the Bible is not an accurate reference. It is just a collection of stories with a point or a lesson, and the problem with people today is that they take it too literally. It may be loosely based on some facts from the old days but it has also been so screwed up in it's many translations that we dont know what the hell the original said. Also on this Fuyutski issue, it definitely was meant as a metaphor because think for a second and you'll realize, how the hell would Fuyutski know?? was he there? NO! he wasn't! nobody would have any way of knowing whether the fruit of knowlege thing is true, it's just a legend if even that. ---- that story, The angels are just messengers from God sent to test humanity. They even said that it was a time of testing that humanity could not escape and they would know that because it was in SEELE's Dead Sea Scrolls. Forget that stupid fruit story because it has no real basis in reality or the story. How the hell woudl Fuyutsky know? Gendo wouldnt even know that. Hell Keel wouldn't even know that so give it up. You are taking everything you hear too literally and thus missing the metaphor.


Pen2
EVA-Pilot
(5/29/00 4:55:28 pm)
203.101.17.56
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here we go (my longest post ever, hee hee)
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::smacks forehead in frustraton::

I think i'm going to use the "3foolishmen" technique here

I really don't get what you're aiming for there captain.


Quote:
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It is just a collection of stories with a point or a lesson, and the problem with people today is that they take it too literally. It may be loosely based on some facts from the old days but it has also been so screwed up in it's many translations that we dont know what the hell the original said
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You're trying to disprove the bible!?!? <sarcasm> Good luck </sarcasm>.

I'm not religious but I don't think whatever you're trying to accomplish by that is going to change anything. The point is, true or not, Many references in Eva come from it. It validity as a historical text means nothing in the context we're disscussing here. But also the references are changed to fit the setting. I'm fairly sure that in the Bible Eve was NOT a 20-story tall humanoid robot and the Lance of Longinous was NOT a 100 meter long Anti-At field weapon. (can see a roman soldier hefting that around now...) So you CAN gain more insight into Evangelion by brushing up on all those primary school scripture lessons. But don't take it as gospel.


Quote:
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nobody would have any way of knowing whether the fruit of knowlege thing is true, it's just a legend if even that. [ think i'll skip a bit here ] The angels are just messengers from God sent to test humanity. They even said that it was a time of testing that humanity could not escape and they would know that because it was in SEELE's Dead Sea Scrolls.
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I think you've just disproved your own point there, el capitano. I'm assuming you don't exactly have a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls sitting on your lap (and of course the ones in Eva are entirely a work of fiction....)
and so there's no limit to the amount of knowledge that could be portrayed in them. No-one knows. I don't think even Hideaki Anno knows because he probably doesn't care. Plus if the theory that Keel is the Wandering Jew of biblical folklore has credence (and I think it does).....


Quote:
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It may be loosely based on some facts from the old days but it has also been so screwed up in it's many translations that we dont know what the hell the original said.
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I don't even know where to begin here. In a translation, the worst you can loose in a non-literal translation is insinuation, not meaning. I think you'll find that if two christians are talking, one only speaking english and the other fluent in the "true" bible, I doubt they'll accuse each other of being satanists.....

----"Gyaaa" -Penē


Access
NERV-Technician
(5/29/00 7:26:39 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Continuation
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Fugitsu: "Angels possess the fruit of life, Humans posess the fruit of intellgience... It has both now, EVA-01 is existing like God, now. EVA-01 now posess the seed of both and is transforming to the Tree of Life were all life orginated. Will it become an Ark in the Third Impact? Or will it become the demon that destorys us all? Everything is in the hands of Ikari's son, now."

I still see no reason to see this as a metaphor.. each humand and angels got a seperate gift and when the seed of both are united then the tree of life forms where all Life orginated.... and how does he know.... well how do they know anything about this... the dead sea scrolls... but still it seems to be that Gendou and Fugtisu and Keel know eveything that was occuring.. they knew each stage... just each of their plants conflicted with another... this caused neither of their plans to become a success. Anyway I see no reason to see this as a metaphor... his mentioning of the tree of life... where all life orgianted... it sounded like he was just saying what was happening rather than a metaphor.

Well ok I wont use this as evidence against the facts that angels have personalities... thats a pretty tedious link to make. So I exclude that from my arguement. And still I see no reason to believe that any angels had a personality except Kaoru.... they didnt show it.... they did speak of it..... some of the angels were just a double helix of energy and one was composed of billions of organic nano machines... they seem to be all just following orders... feeling no pain..... empty droids...... I see 3rd Impact very similar to being an angel except an angel has a specific form... or at least A form... even if the one they could change. While 3rd Impact is just LCL....

I cant pervceive how a being such as the angel with millions of nano machines could have a personality... would each machine have a sepearete device... no the collection of all the nano machines are the angel... and I find it difficult to see that this angel would have pain love suffering.... none of those angels felt remores... none of them felt for humans... they did what they were ordered without the ability to doubt god's wishes.... empty mindless robots... who live in a world of nothing... no pain, no pleasure... no freedom... except the only angel that was differnt from all the others... was Kaoru... he showed love, effections, emotions, communicated, and felt remore and pity... he was the angel of free will seperate free....
Access


The Nondescript
EVA-Pilot
(5/29/00 7:50:34 pm)
129.127.222.6
Reply | Edit | Del Yo!!!!!!
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I've always taken Kauru=Tabris as fact. It seems I have 'known' this for a long time.
Where did this info come from? Is it given in the series or movies?


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/30/00 8:17:02 am)
207.61.115.91
Reply | Edit | Del Oh boy, now it's on
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First of all Pen^2, I don't have to go far to disprove the Bible. Anyone who takes it literally is a moron. Even if you are religious you should know that the Bible is there for the soul purpose of teaching us lessons through stories, not facts. And you didn't see what point I was getting at? It was blatantly obvious, I was saying why we cant use the Bible or that fruit of life whatever as a valid proof. You think that the folks at Gainax are scholars of the Bible? No they probably haven't even read it. They wanted to tell a story with religious overtones so they used some points from it cause it would make a real impact(no pun intended). After all of this I have come to realize the fact that perhaps Anno hasn't figured this stuff out. Eva has contradictions in it. It's not like he tried real hard to make a story that fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. I have realized that they most likely made it up as they went. That's another thing with EoE. Those movies were made because fans didn't like the original ending. I'm sure Anno would of left it at episode 26 "The beast who shouted I at the heart of the world"/"take care of yourself". That's why I'm thinking perhaps we shouldn't be anaylizing EoE too heavily because it could of just been Anno's way of saying "---- you! if you don't like the ending then here's your ------- giant robot show" Perhaps he made it cryptic with no real meaning behind it and then he goes and says "if you don't get it then it's not my problem". that's not what I would imagine a person who knows everything about the story say". Personally I feel no real reason for the movies, I was extremely happy with the TV ending and I belive that if you didn't like the TV ending then you are not a true Eva fan. Anno hasn't got it all together himself. If he saw you guys he probably would say "you nerds need to get a life". I don't think about Evangelion all the time, my floors aren't covered with Eva papers, I don't study it, I just use logic to clarify things for people who should be able to figure it out themselves. So the point behind this is perhaps we shouldn't take the movies too seriously, they were just crowd pleasers, nothing more.


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/30/00 9:55:01 am)
168.122.13.129
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Cap'n says: EoE could have been [Anno's way of saying "---- you! if you don't like the ending then here's your ------- giant robot show"].

The French aside, this is exactly my sentiment. It's really a shame that after the airing of the TV series, Evangelion fans raised havoc to the extent that Anno was pressured into making the movie. The TV series was complete as one literary work, despite its value as a work of anime was questionable.

Cap'n: [If he saw you guys he probably would say "you nerds need to get a life".]

I don't know about that though. The process of analyzing and understanding something is like looking into a mirror; it's a reflective process. Ananlyzing and understanding something helps you analyze and understand yourself, it shows you why, what, who, when, where and how you are at any given time. Dynamics predicts that no two analyses will be the same, even if conducted by the same person. Like Kaji says, "Living means changing."
The object of analysis is not half as important as the process itself, to the extent that whatever you choose to analyze, you can always reap the benefits of the reflective nature of analysis. In this sense, I don't think that the distinction of whether it's the movie, or the series, matters much.


Access
NERV-Technician
(5/30/00 5:11:18 pm)
203.21.78.66
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Re: Oh boy, now it's on
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That all getting a little harsh... and the movies... I am one actually to beieve that Anno knew all along he was going to make them. I love the last episodes... yes... I love them... I love the movies equally.... I dont think the movies spoilt anything... alot IS still being debated and talked about..... scenes in the last episodes such as Auska curled up in a fetus position in Unit-02 in the water.. Misato dead lying on the ground, Ritsuko dead with a bullet wound in her back laying in LCL.. to show scenes such as these in the last episode show that probably Anno had a Extremely high amount of knowlegde he has thought about.... I wouldnt be surprised if he had plotted all the stages of the movies already... as a personal oppion... with out the last two episdoes the movie is nothing... it needs the episodes... it is impossible to describe and convey Anno thoughts about what he felt was truly third impact.. but he did a very good job in the ep 25 and 26.

However accompanied by the movies the last episodes are enhanced even more... I think they need each other... I except the series and EoE as one giant package.... he left a gap with all those seens leaving us begging for more... I think he was sly and knew all this... a real Geroge Lucas... if you know what I mean... (sorry f I offend any SW's fans) except when Anno slotted his movie into it... he did an EXCELLENT job... I see no reason why Anno would compromise the EVA storyline by creating a movie with fabricated facts... I think it is VERY consitent... and if someone asked me which ending did I prefer the series one or the movies I would say that they complement and almost need each other.... but of course I would of been happy with just seeing either...
Access


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/31/00 4:15:44 am)
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Access: There's no doubt that some of the details of the events of, and those leading up to the 3rd Impact had been plotted out prior to the airing of the TV series. There's no denying this; as you mention, some scenes from the TV series' 25&26 depict these events("scenes in the last episodes such as Auska curled up in a fetus position in Unit-02 in the water.. Misato dead lying on the ground, Ritsuko dead with a bullet wound in her back laying in LCL").
But, I think this exact fact, that Anno didn't divulge the details of the 3rd Impact, is the biggest hint that Anno didn't plan on ending Evangelion with just the denouement of the 3rd Impact. Anno's message behind Evangelion was not about the Instrumentality Project nor was it wasn't about the characters' fates. Such technichalities have little bearing on the message that Anno intended for Evangelion.
The movie is only a crowd pleaser. If Anno had intended Evangelion to be about the characters and the HIP, he would have produced the series just like that for the original airing.


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/31/00 12:24:20 pm)
207.61.115.96
Reply | Edit | Del Hmmmmmm,
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Interesting points brought up by both. Upon further thinking about it analyzing a great piece of literature like Evangelion is not childish. University professors do it. I think that people should analyze Evangelion as a work of literature. Beats the ---- out of A Separate Piece, The Lord of the Flies or Animal Farm(all of which excluding Animal Farm I liked.) Thank you 3F and Access for helping me come around and for the proverbial slap in the face. I needed that. I was in a bad mood yesterday and I know that the movies were planned from before. I'd be suprized if there is somebody on this board who haven't read my repeatedly posted defense of how the movies fit into the Tv series. What was I thinking. Last time I be cynical about Eva. Sorry, but as I was saying.

One thing that you need to realize when watching Eva is that it is not a normal anime. It personally bugs me when people compare it to other animes as if it was on the same level. Most are just about action and use character development as an excuse between battles, Eva uses the battles as an excuse to develop character. The only thing that Eva has in common with most animes is that it is drawn in anime. But Eva never was about the Eva's or Nerv or the Angels or the third impact or anything like that. It is about the hearts of people. More importantly it is about growth of the main characters as people. How they mature through life. All of this however is set to the awesome backdrop of a war with the mysterious beings known as Angels. Just like life it has it's funny moments and it's sad moments. The last few episodes leading into the ending which I consider ep.19 and up(which had considerably better animation quality than the earlier eps) were beautifully twisted.

Just one more question 3F. What was up with that "all French aside" remark. Although I speak some of it I didn't use any there. That line of mine which you quoted was pretty devoid of the language of love from what I could tell.


The Nondescript
EVA-Pilot
(5/31/00 12:57:26 pm)
129.127.222.6
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Right on Cap.

Eva transends ordinary crap TV and even quality entertaining anime.
It is a work of art, a piece of literature.

It raises questions and discusses many things.
It could easily be studied at the Uni level. It is only up to people to see animation, (or cartoons), as just another medium for art and not dismiss it as pulp just because of the medium.

As y'all may have seen, people have written heaps in response to Eva on the net and discussed many a point, (as we are doing now). Many have also written spin offs.

To the Animes I have seen, it has no comparison, except on superficial levels. e.g. character design.


Access
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(5/31/00 6:59:21 pm)
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Re: Masterpiece
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Well 3f I think the movies is more than just a crowd pleaser. This is a bit of a mouthful but I feel very strongly for the quality of the movies... most of the more educated EVA fans considered the Movies to be not that good.. while I think that it was the best think I had ever seen.

NOTE: I suggest you ignore this and just read the last paragraph it will be alot easier... on your brain the brain gets tired of crap pretty easily.... lol. Actually most of this message goes of the actual topic... oh well.

My belief the true aim of EVAGELION is the character development the true feelings that flawed humans feel in such time. Anno was suffering from Depression and EVA is a result of that... the relationship the characters is what makes EVA.... without all the relgious references you are still left with the philosiphy between the human and their interactions. These are the key parts of NG. Hence Anno's use of two videos describing Insturmentality and the feelings expressed by Shinji.... hence the need for that scene of Shinji &&^$^$##^%$$^%$&^%*%%&%&* when Auska was naked. This was not irrelivant or a Japanese Porn seen... it was a down to earth honest feeling of what characters out into this situation would feel... none of them come from a picture perfect family... EVA is a personifcation and gernilsation of the world around us now... hence the 18th Challenge the Lillim... it could be interpreded that this was the JSSDF attacking NERV but I would like to read more into it and say it is the general poverty and war that goes around us everyday... this is TRUELLY what EVA.... all of us can see varies attibute of our own persona in many of the NG characters this was internally done....

In a series such as this we have many favorite characters... none are perfect they are almost real people.... flawed, weak, lonely, vulerable in the search for something greater in their own life.... these are the thoughts that ran around Anno's head during depression, his conclusion was to solve the Instrumentality of others by the completion of man.... 3rd impact... we have ALL desired to be someone else at one time or another in our lives... but as the sunsceen song says "Sometimes your up, and sometimes your down" we just have to live with it... or die trying to solve it. I think that the movies does not stop this trend in the series of character development.

Let me put to you this question... where do you think the series fits into the movie?
In the episodes he descibes himself fading... as 3rd Impact takes place... so thrid impact definetly occured in the series. So when was the only time that Shinji ever actually experience instumentality in the movies was when the image of him merged with Rei... with her ontop of him... he expressed how he felt the pressence of eveyone.. but knew it to be wrong... this I believe is where the series episodes fit into the movie. The series aim was to express 3rd Impact in as much detail as possible... which the movie was based around the events that took place around 3rd impact. The actual only thing Shinji experinces of 3rd impact in the movies WAS that scene with Rei and him merged. All those metaphyscial scenes were of him making the desion of whether mankind should evolve... while ther episodes was focusing on instrumentality itself. However their are deffintely links between the to.

In the series when the statement posed to Shinji is that this is the world we he descides mankind's fate... it was expressing what would happen if mankind did evolve... he expressed that he didnt want the world were everyone died.. and 3rd impact is very closely related to death. Eventually by the end of the series Shinji understood that he could live on without the mergeure of everyone... he could exists in the real world... he did not fear people as much as he did... it was the relisation of the errors of his previous actions which caused him to reject the mergure of mankind.

I will admit that it would seem that the series did end on a lighter and happier note than the movies did. EoE was definetly darker.. but I would not call it a sad ending as I have expressed in other posts. I rather see that EoE ended with the sign of renewed life... of hope... of a new beginning. Yes the world may of evolve or it may return to how it was. But if it evolved and Shinji and Auska are left on Earth it shows a sign of new life. When Noah's Ark got flooded and him and his wife reached the 'new land' in the bible it was not a sad story is one full of promise and hope of a fresh start. If Mankind returns to how it was it still is not a sad ending.... in time all will be well. Either way it is not a sad ending.

I dont think that the movies or the series descibes 3rd Impact as heaven... yes it is certainly could be argued it is bliss. A world without pain or suffering in the movie Shinji is overwelmed by the temptation of 3rd Impact but... he just relises to himself that this is a world without pain and suffering but is also deprived of love and happiness. This relisation that 3rd impact is not what he believes mankind should have is expressed in the series. This is where the series fits in. Yes defineltly the series had time to express many issues while the movies only brought up the fact their would be no love. However this is not an inconistancy. As I said early the series and the movies complement each other. And at annaylsing EVA at this depth that connection between the two is even more visible.

The movie itself does focus on a more reality based side... definely but so did the rest of the series... were they just a crowd pleaser as well.... no.... it is what EVA is... 'hicks' who enjoy the movies for the action seens would certainly enjoy the other action seens in the series... it does not mean that Anno made the movie basing these hicks as his taget audience. The movies and Series I think go together are unsepeartable. I think Anno would not of put a seen in with Auska underwater in Unit-02 in a fetal position without going any further... that is a bit un belivevable he would just leave a gap that wide. Their is no way anyone could interpret what actually occured between the series and the movies... it was not just made to leave us ponder the future events but to give us a taste and beg for more... and his plan worked to perfection.
Access

Edited by Access at: 5/31/00 6:59:21 pm


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/31/00 11:19:00 pm)
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Some good points but also mostly opinion.

Has Anno ever said why he created the movies?

I have a few comment to add to that email between you and Fasad but i do not recall them right now. (maybe you can type the whole thing up and post it hehe)

Qabalistically speaking, the union depicted in third impact would not be a loss of love, infact it would represent a union through love (and love and death are very closely related even in exoteric terms).

I should get around to that file (email, i think i have a few good points)

ATh


3foolishmen
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(6/1/00 2:14:28 am)
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I'm going to restrict this reply to points raised by Access, for the sake of keeping things simple.

Access: "where do you think the series fits into the movie?"

While the TV series focuses on the abstract events of the 3rd Impact and the mental processes as the characters experience it, the movie complements(#note: 'compliment' means 'praise' while 'complement' is the noun form of complete) the TV series by depicting the physical events of the 3rd Impact and follows up on the fate of the characters. Therefore there is a strong link in between the the TV 25&26 and EoE. I don't doubt, nor debate this.

Access: "I will admit that it would seem that the series did end on a lighter and happier note than the movies did. EoE was definetly darker."

I don't know... My impression was that both are happy endings, although "happy ending" doesn't capture the essence well. It's most definitely not the fairy-tale "and they lived happily ever after" kind of ending. What I want to say is that both endings are ~!NOT!~ tragedies, thus "happy endings" to that extent.

Access: "As I said early the series and the movies complement each other. And at annaylsing EVA at this depth that connection between the two is even more visible."

I think there is no question about that.

Access: "The movie itself does focus on a more reality based side... definely but so did the rest of the series..."

Yes, the rest of the series(1~24) have a stronger emphasis on physical reality rather than the abstract, although several scenes done in abstract expression mark their presence throughout. Ep 14, when Rei is reading prose of loose associations, Ep 16, when Unit 01 is taken into the Sea of Dirac, Ep 20, when Shinji goes 400%, Ep 22, when Arael is probing Asuka's repressed memories, Ep 23, when Armisael fuses with Rei, several scenes set in the train car, when Shinji, Child-Shinji, Rei, Touji, etc, argue and debate each other(btw, these train-car scenes are highly significant and meaningful).
My point is that originally, the TV series was concluded in abstract expression. Anno chose to charge Evangelion with a certain central theme, and chose to express, develop and conclude this theme in abstract expression.
Some fans didn't like this. They didn't want to listen to the theme of Evangelion as Anno chose to produce it. They wanted to know what happened in context to the characters, and how things turned out to be, when this was only an auxilliary aspect of Evangelion. I thought the TV series conveyed its message clearly to the point, and I was satisfied with my interpretation of the TV series' ending. I didn't think that EoE was necessary, and I still don't think so.

Access: "[There] is no way anyone could interpret what actually occured between the series and the movies..."

True, the series left a lot of questions unanswered, and it's pretty much impossible to fill in the gap just by the information given in the TV series. Still, I say that these 'questions' weren't the main point of Evangelion anyway, and the TV series is still a conclusive, and complete, work of literature. The movie is an unnecessary addition.


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(6/1/00 2:59:59 am)
168.122.15.155
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The Nondescript: "I've always taken Kauru=Tabris as fact. Where did this info come from?"

Myth and lore?

Cap'n: "More importantly [Evangelion] is about growth of the main characters as people. How they mature through life."

I think this statement is right on the mark.

Cap'n: "What was up with that 'all French aside' remark."

I was referring to the swearing. You get to slap me if that was a trick question.

ATh: "Has Anno ever said why he created the movies?"

Although I can't say anything about why Anno created the movies, Anno said, in a radio interview, that he was "more than satisfied with eps 25&26 of the TV series." -from Hayashibara Megumi's Tokyo Boogie Night, aired April 14th, 1996 on TBS radio.


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(6/1/00 6:17:12 pm)
202.65.67.180
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I can see why he would be more than satisfied with the tv ending.

But i think the Tabris-17th angel thing is not to do with myth or lore.

I heard that Tabris was the name on the Evangelion trading card of the 17th angel.

So it never actually appears in the series, but has come to be rather household. In fact other than names i already know (Sandalphon ect) Tabris is the only name i remember (and it is the only name that never actually occurs)

We take so much for granted and build our own perspective of the world on this, whether it be reality or illusion.

ATh


Access
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(6/1/00 6:34:03 pm)
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Re: Miscellaneous
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Well 3f you mentioned that the series has focus on the reality part but has the metpahpysical static screens with the inner feelings of the characters. But so did the movie...

Anyway.... I think they go together... of course that is an oppion.. and in this case I dont think evidence can change a personal preferance.
Access


Capt Jake
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(6/2/00 6:44:58 am)
206.172.135.156
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Didn't the RCB say that Kaworu was Tabris? I could of sworn that's what it said. Am I right or am I wrong here?


Unit04 prime
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(6/5/00 11:13:14 pm)
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hi
I haven't read the rcb, but it's fact that tabris is karwou.. or would it be the other way around?? Karwou is tabris?? yeah i think that would make more sense rather than tabris- karwou.
because that's who he really is, tabris, the angel of free will, but under the name as karwou
enter the arena, Harbinger of Death


A T h 401
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(6/5/00 11:59:06 pm)
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Well Unit04 prime

thats what is up for debate, it is never mentioned in the series at all, nor in any of the movies.

and i just looked, no entry for Kaoru or Tabris in the RCB (still i might be blind)

So it would appear that there is no evidence for this being the case.

So why do we still refer to Tabris ?????

What is it about this name?

ATh
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