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Old 27-03-2002, 05:27 AM   #1   [permalink]
MDWigs
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Me within Eva

Yes this is an Eva-00's soul related thread however I would like to keep it devoted to a specific scene if that is at all possible.

From episode 22, during the battle with the 16th Angel just after Asuka in Eva-02 is retrieved Rei says the following:

Rei: "Who? Me? Me within Eva. No, I feel someone else other than me. Who are you? An Angel? The being that we call an Angel?"

This is my interpretation of the scene.

"Who?" - Rei initially senses a presence.

"Me? Me within the Eva." - Rei questions whether that presence is herself within the Eva (which I take to mean "herself" (Rei) as the resident soul of the Eva)

"No, I feel someone else other than me." - She then discounts that possibility, saying that it is something else other then me. In my opinion "me" meaning "me within the Eva".

"Who are you? An Angel? The being that we call an Angel?" - Then she finally figures out that it is an Angel.

Ok so why do I interpret the "Me within Eva" line to mean, "me" the resident soul of Eva? Well apart from the fact that I already think that Rei-001 is the resident soul of Eva-00, it seems logical to me that Rei is obviously not referring to herself. She is being contacted by another "being", if you are being contacted by another being you don't think "am I being contacted by myself?". She is being contacted by another being and she recognises it as such. She asks who it is, she wonders whether it is "Me within the Eva", that is she wonders whether it is the resident soul of the Eva contacting her, then she discounts that possibility, "No", because the being that is contacting her is something else other than the "me within the Eva".

We have three "beings".

Rei the pilot, the resident soul of the Eva, and the Angel.

Rei the pilot is being contacted by the Angel, she is being contacted by an outside being. However at first she isn't sure where this contact comes from, and thus ventures forth the suggestion "Me? Me within Eva". Now obviously she wouldn't think an outside contact is coming from herself (that is Rei the pilot), thus it must be from one of the other two "beings". She eventually discounts her first guess because she feels something else other than that guess.

The first guess was "Me within Eva", the feeling is coming from something else other than "Me", that is something else other than "Me within Eva". I think she is saying that the outside contact is coming from something other than the resident soul of Eva-00, which she identifies as "Me within Eva".

Think of it this way. Suppose Shinji in Eva-01 was being contacted by the Angel. I think his equivalent statement would be something like this.

Shinji: "Who? "Mother? Mother within Eva. No, I feel something else other than Mother. Who are you? An Angel? The being that we call an Angel?"

So Rei is basically saying that the resident soul of Eva-00 is "Me within Eva". The resident soul of Eva-00 is Rei (a separate Rei, Rei-001). Logically I can't see any other way of interpreting that statement. In case you are wondering I have checked the translation and I don't think it is an issue.

Of course that scene ends with Eva-00 being destroyed, in the Japanese Video version of that episode you can see clearly Eva-00 turn into Rei just before it explodes.

Screen Capture 1
Screen Capture 2
Screen Capture 3
Screen Capture 4
Screen Capture 5
Screen Capture 6
Screen Capture 7
Screen Capture 8
Screen Capture 9
Screen Capture 10

So what do people think? Questions? Comments?
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Old 27-03-2002, 07:25 AM   #2   [permalink]
SeI ThIm
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So you are saying that Reis 001 soul resids in Eva-00?
Hmm...who, or rather what is Rei 001? You said that this is spare Rei...what do you mean?
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Old 27-03-2002, 07:35 AM   #3   [permalink]
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Rei-001 is the little girl Rei we see in ep. 21 (the flashback episode) and is killed by Doctor Naoko Akagi. She was the first "Rei". When she died, her soul was passed on to her next incarnation, Rei-002, who was then pulled out of the "spare Rei" tank, and is the Rei we see for most of the series.
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Old 27-03-2002, 07:39 AM   #4   [permalink]
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Yeah, I agree with youy MDWigs, it does sound like that Rei is referring not to her physical self, but rather the prescence of Rei1 in the eva. I remembered once she said, after a spell in eva-o1: 'eva-01 smells like Shinji' [not exact words], which probably meant she felt the prescence of Shinji's mum. Similar case with eva-00.

Rei2/3 doesn't say much, but she certainly is very perceptive.
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Old 27-03-2002, 10:01 AM   #5   [permalink]
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You discount the possiblity that there is a perceived seperation between the personality and the individuality (soul)

Considering the make up of the human condition it would be acceptable that the first contact of such a refined form would make it appear that this 'contact' was indeed a seperate being, when infact it is little more than the persons soul.

The Qabalah speaks of ones 'Holy Guardian Angel' which is a seperate being. Though is is infact simply a much higher aspect of the self.

So i dont see this as any indication whatsoever that there is a resident soul in unit 00.

You will need to discredit a great bulk of esoteric thought regarding the perceived seperateness of the soul and the personality to give any weight to your argument.

I still believe that this is an aspect of Lilith speaking to Rei directly

Which i also beleive to have inhabited Rei1. So the only part i disagree with you on in practise is that 00 has a resident soul.

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Old 27-03-2002, 10:30 AM   #6   [permalink]
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About Rei...I allways used Rei 01 or Rei I...never Rei 001...
Sorry...my mistake...

ATh...you said that there is no resided soul in Unit 00. Than what about the AT Field? Are you implying that Rei II is manifesting the AT Field all way along?
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Old 27-03-2002, 10:43 AM   #7   [permalink]
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I believe the resident soul only amplifies or at best is an aspect of the AT field.

The pilot is more important, and their mental state (emotional too) is a big factor.
So yes, Rei is what is generating the at field, just as asuka and shinji are the ones generating the at field.


The cores of the angels allows the angels to generate the at field of their variety. Being the fruit of life

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Old 27-03-2002, 11:24 AM   #8   [permalink]
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In episode 12 (think it's 12, been so long!) when Shinji is inside Eva-00, he sees images of Rei as her current self, also when Eva00 explodes in the Director's Cut version of episode 22 Eva-00 does indeed turn into a giant Rei/Lilith, but NOT a child version. Don't you think that if it was definitely Rei-001 that the self-image of that soul would be a child?? Therefore Shinji wouldn't see images that Rei had RECENTLY experienced while in 00.

My explanation for this is that there is a nameless dummy Rei without a soul inside the Eva, like a reverse dummy plug. Rei's memories and experiences are more than likely shared with this soul giving it a mirror image of sorts of her own soul. like a blank slate that can be molded by the pilot's soul.

The Rei dummies are the source of the dummy plug system, the proof:

Episode 22 -
Ritsuko: This is the true source of the dummy plug system - lights come on in Reiquarium

Ritsuko explains that they are soulless, and we know that a REAL soul isn't necessary for an Eva to activate (episode 18, eva01 activates with a dummy plug, which Ritsuko explains tricks the Eva into thinking there is a soul inside it) as long as we can assume that their is one soul present either in the eva itself (eva01 - Yui, eva02 - Kyoko) or the soul of the pilot (eva00 - Rei w/ Lilith soul, and also Shinji). To me it makes more sense that it's just a BLANK Rei clone, or reverse-dummy plug, and there's really nothing to base it being the actual Rei-001 resident in Eva-00 and not just any ol' Rei clone.
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Old 27-03-2002, 11:32 AM   #9   [permalink]
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I agree that the rei clones are within the evas and hold the souls.

(Yui and Asuka's mother. (as they are the only things that can hold a soul)

It is possible a soulless clone is in 00 though i dont really expect it. I dobut that the dummy system was used in 00 as well (not that is goes against your reasoning)

I do expect that a com,plex computer system is in 00 as in all the eva's. It could be that the brain used could come from these clones allowing a seemless integration of the eva and the soul.

Lack of a soul would possibly cause a few imbalances in teh eva unit too ^^

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Old 27-03-2002, 11:35 AM   #10   [permalink]
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But the thing is, the clones ARE the true source of the dummy plug, not a computer, Ritsuko comes right out and says it in what I quoted in my last post. They're blank slates basically, so you could assume you can sync them with anyone.
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Old 27-03-2002, 02:03 PM   #11   [permalink]
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Well first of all:
Quote:
So yes, Rei is what is generating the at field, just as asuka and shinji are the ones generating the at field.
At Field is something that Eva has. It`s the light of Evas soul just as humans. Shinji and Asuka can`t generate their AT Field...they are using Evas in the battle and that comes from Evas soul. Rei can generate her own but that is not the point.
Look at the Eva Series. They are controled by the dummy plug and it hasn`t got any soul but the Evas are generateing AT Fields...so that means that this AT Fields is manifested by Eva controled by d.p.
And also look at what Asuka states in EoE:
"Now I know the meaning of th AT Fieald...You have allways protected me mama..."
So as much as I can see Evas souls (Yui, Kyoko, and well...Rei)
are what manifest the AT Fields.
Second:
Quote:
My explanation for this is that there is a nameless dummy Rei without a soul inside the Eva
Well...that is not possible. Look what I wrote above.
And even if that "dummy Rei" has some sort of image of herself this still doesn`t make sense. Soul is a soul...without it there is no AT Field. The most resonable explanation to it is that in Eva 00 resids Reis I soul.

Ofcours I could be wrong.
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Old 27-03-2002, 02:22 PM   #12   [permalink]
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Ah...and one mor thing. About what Ritsuko says...Dummy Plug(Rei clones) is the only thing that can hold a soul.
Don`t you think that this sounds more like : D. P. is the only thing that can control the Evas.
I think that souless clone (dummy plug) is only needed to activate and control the Eva. It is not in the Eva all the time...not as some sort of a soul holder. It is only usefull when pilot can`t control Eva.
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Old 27-03-2002, 06:50 PM   #13   [permalink]
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Arrow I disagree

Quote:
Originally posted by MDWigs

"Me? Me within the Eva." - Rei questions whether that presence is herself within the Eva (which I take to mean "herself" (Rei) as the resident soul of the Eva)
I just take that line that she is refering to herself. Sure it might be a little strange to identify yourself seperatly from yourself, but there are occasions when you do, and she is a pretty bad situation at the time, and I just thought it added to the feeling that her mind is racing to try to get a grasp on something, so you just hear her thoughts as they come...

Hey, heres a story... Once, I had my hand on my shoulder, and I was really sleepy, and then suddenly I felt this thing grasping my shoulder, and I thought it was a huge terrantula, but then I saw it was just my hand, and I was like "o phew, it was just my hand", and that doesn't mean my hand is seperate from me
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Old 27-03-2002, 07:49 PM   #14   [permalink]
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SeI ThIm:

So you are saying that Reis 001 soul resids in Eva-00? hmm...who, or rather what is Rei 001?


Check out the numerous other threads on this forum where I discuss my theory of Rei-001 in Eva-00.

ATh:

You discount the possiblity that there is a perceived seperation between the personality and the individuality (soul)


No. I think that Rei discounts that possibility. I don't think she considers that. She is being contacted by an external being, she doesn't look internally for its source.

Considering the make up of the human condition it would be acceptable that the first contact of such a refined form would make it appear that this 'contact' was indeed a seperate being, when infact it is little more than the persons soul.

That doesn't sound acceptable or logical to me. Rei the pilot is being contacted by an outside force, that is external to Rei the pilot. Her first thought is that it could be "Me within Eva" and then she realises it is the Angel.

The Qabalah speaks of ones 'Holy Guardian Angel' which is a seperate being. Though is is infact simply a much higher aspect of the self.

Your point being? Eva doesn't follow any particular religion or any particular belief set. In Eva souls can be quantified, measured and captured. How can you perceived your own soul to be separate from yourself?

So i dont see this as any indication whatsoever that there is a resident soul in unit 00.

I wouldn't expect you to. There is ample other evidence to show that all Evas possess souls but you discount that as well.

You will need to discredit a great bulk of esoteric thought regarding the perceived seperateness of the soul and the personality to give any weight to your argument.

There is no need for that at all. In Eva the soul and the mind are effectively the same. Neither have a physical representation. The "mind" isn't housed in the brain. Shinji loses physical form in episode 20, he no long has a brain, yet still retains his "mind". Rei isn't examining her own soul, how do you expect your own soul to contact you, when in essence your consciousness is derived from that soul? Whatever external religious beliefs exist is irrelevant to the issue at hand. The Eva universe doesn't work by those rules.

I still believe that this is an aspect of Lilith speaking to Rei directly.

That might make sense from an external real world perspective (certainly not my perspective though) however within the Eva universe it doesn't work at all. Rei is Lilith in Eva. Rei has Lilith's soul. That soul makes up Rei, then Rei changes an adapts that soul to be her own, she grows with it, her mind and personality change from Rei-001 to Rei-002 to Rei-003. However fundamentally Rei still has Lilith's soul. The only time that Lilith ever talks to Rei is when Rei (with Lilith's soul) returns to Lilith's body. In that case it is clear from the "Welcome Home", that Lilith's body see's Lilith's soul and that's it.

Which i also beleive to have inhabited Rei1. So the only part i disagree with you on in practise is that 00 has a resident soul.

Well Lilith did inhabit Rei-001, just like it did the other Rei's we see out walking around. However Rei specifically says "Me within Eva". She doesn't say "Me within the Entry Plug", or "Me piloting Eva". She says "Me within Eva".

SeI ThIm:

About Rei...I allways used Rei 01 or Rei I...never Rei 001...


Well I call her Rei 001 because that is what it has on Ritsuko's controller in episode 23. Rei 004, Rei 005, Rei 006, Rei 007 etc...

Of course Rei 001, Rei 002 and Rei 003 themselves are missing from her controller.

ATh:

So yes, Rei is what is generating the at field, just as asuka and shinji are the ones generating the at field.


As SeI ThIm pointed out later in this thread, and as I always point out whenever someone makes this claim. "What about the MP Evas". They do not have pilots, they only have soulless Dummy Plugs, yet they produce AT-Fields. The pilots don't produce the AT Field, the resident souls of the Evas do.

So you are now claiming that Rei does not "pilot" Eva-00 like Kaoru does Eva-02. That Rei and Shinji do it the same way (in Eva-00)? I just want to get what you are saying correct because this is different to your statements in that other thread.

The cores of the angels allows the angels to generate the at field of their variety. Being the fruit of life

Yes, becuase the Cores of the Angels contain the Angel's soul.

Antioch-X:

In episode 12 (think it's 12, been so long!) when Shinji is inside Eva-00, he sees images of Rei as her current self,


It's episode 14. He also sees a child-like Rei as well, which he can't be "remembering". I would like to keep this discussion to just the events surrounding the incident in episode 22, there are ample other threads where we discuss episode 14.

also when Eva00 explodes in the Director's Cut version of episode 22 Eva-00 does indeed turn into a giant Rei/Lilith, but NOT a child version.

How can you tell? It turns into a Rei the size of Eva-00. Who is to say that isn't a child Rei?

Don't you think that if it was definitely Rei-001 that the self-image of that soul would be a child??

I think it is.

Therefore Shinji wouldn't see images that Rei had RECENTLY experienced while in 00.

Shinji saw a child-like Rei too. Rei certainly hadn't "recently" experienced that. Anyway this is for another thread not here.

My explanation for this is that there is a nameless dummy Rei without a soul inside the Eva, like a reverse dummy plug. Rei's memories and experiences are more than likely shared with this soul giving it a mirror image of sorts of her own soul. like a blank slate that can be molded by the pilot's soul.

Again I didn't want this to turn into just another "Whose soul is in Eva-00 thread. I want to focus specifically on this scene and that statement. There are numerous other threads where Eva-00's soul is discussed in depth.

That being said, your idea doesn't make sense to me, see below:

The Rei dummies are the source of the dummy plug system, the proof:

Episode 22 -
Ritsuko: This is the true source of the dummy plug system - lights come on in Reiquarium


She says it is the source of the system. Note that this is the room where Rei "downloads" her memories, where she has her personality transplanted into the Dummy Plugs. Ritsuko is referring to the whole system here in my opinion, not the Rei clones themselves.

Also in episode 17 Ritsuko says in reference to the Dummy Plug, "This is nothing but a fake, a copy which imitates the pilot's thinking. It's nothing but a machine."

The Dummy Plug is nothing but a machine. It doesn't have an actual Rei clone in it. This is also evident by the fact that the only clones missing from the tank, according to Ritsuko's controller in episode 23, are Rei 001, Rei 002 and Rei 003. None of the other clones have been taken out to be used in a Dummy Plug.

Ritsuko explains that they are soulless, and we know that a REAL soul isn't necessary for an Eva to activate (episode 18, eva01 activates with a dummy plug, which Ritsuko explains tricks the Eva into thinking there is a soul inside it) as long as we can assume that their is one soul present either in the eva itself (eva01 - Yui, eva02 - Kyoko) or the soul of the pilot (eva00 - Rei w/ Lilith soul, and also Shinji).

The Dummy Plug tricks the Eva into thinking there is a pilot inside of it. The resident soul of the Eva synchs with the Dummy Plug, thinking it is a pilot. The Synchronisation is what is important. That is the fundamental system on which the Evas work. Synchronisation between the pilot and the resident soul. If the Eva has no resident soul then how can they possible expect a pilot (or Dummy Plug) to synch with it? How does Shinji pilot Eva-00 if it doesn't have a soul?

To me it makes more sense that it's just a BLANK Rei clone, or reverse-dummy plug, and there's really nothing to base it being the actual Rei-001 resident in Eva-00 and not just any ol' Rei clone.

The only Rei clones missing from the tank at the end of episode 23 are Rei 001, Rei 002 and Rei 003. No others have been taken out. I think there is a great deal to base my theory on, however I have detailed it all elsewhere, here I would like to focus on the topic at hand.

ATh:

I agree that the rei clones are within the evas and hold the souls.

(Yui and Asuka's mother. (as they are the only things that can hold a soul)


Well that is wrong. Sorry. The Core of the Eva holds the soul. As I have said before, on 3 Rei's are missing from the tank. Rei is the only being that can hold a soul, in and of herself. The Evas, being "human" according to Ritsuko, though not having souls originally, have salvaged souls put into them (Yui, Kyouko). These souls are put into the Evas Core. The Core holds the Evas soul. They talk about "preparing" Touji's Core for Eva-03 and they are surprised that Kaoru can use Eva-02 without replacing Asuka's Core.

Even the timing doesn't work for Rei clones to hold the souls of the Eva. Yui was absorbed into Eva-01 before Rei even existed. Rei was only created after Yui was absorbed into Eva-01. After she was put into the Evas Core.

It is possible a soulless clone is in 00 though i dont really expect it. I dobut that the dummy system was used in 00 as well (not that is goes against your reasoning)

There is no soulless clone in any of the Evas. They are all in the tank.

I do expect that a com,plex computer system is in 00 as in all the eva's. It could be that the brain used could come from these clones allowing a seemless integration of the eva and the soul.

The brain isn't important. The soul and mind of the resident soul and the pilot are all that matters for synchronisation (using the A-10 Nerve).

Lack of a soul would possibly cause a few imbalances in teh eva unit too ^^

Yes it would. Like the Eva no working at all, because there is nothing for the pilot to synch with.

Antioch-X:

But the thing is, the clones ARE the true source of the dummy plug, not a computer, Ritsuko comes right out and says it in what I quoted in my last post. They're blank slates basically, so you could assume you can sync them with anyone.


The Dummy Plug is just a machine. Ritsuko says that as well remember. They don't contain Rei clones at all.

Timon:

I just take that line that she is refering to herself. Sure it might be a little strange to identify yourself seperatly from yourself, but there are occasions when you do, and she is a pretty bad situation at the time, and I just thought it added to the feeling that her mind is racing to try to get a grasp on something, so you just hear her thoughts as they come...


I don't think that is very likely (it is possible, I just don't think it is likely). Rei detects an outside presence. She is being "contacted" (like we see pilots being contacted before, Shinji in Eva-00 for instance). I don't think it is logical to say that Rei's first suggestion of who this external contact is, would be herself. She doesn't say herself either by the way. She says "Me within Eva". I think she thinks it may be external contact coming from the "Me within the Eva" (that is the resident soul), then she feels something other than that though and realises it is the Angel.
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Old 28-03-2002, 12:05 AM   #15   [permalink]
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Does this mean that Rei knows her older self is inside the eva?
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