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Old 13-04-2003, 05:24 PM   #16   [permalink]
Dr0nak
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Hmm, I don't know. I probably wouldn't buy a sub only DVD or a dub only DVD for that matter. If I'm going to purchase anime on DVD, I'd rather get both the sub and dub versions. That way I can pick whichever format suits me at the time. I'll watch subs for some reasons and dubs for others so I'd prefer to have both options available. I could live with only one or the other (e.g., TV is only dubs), but I do find it nice to have a choice with DVDs. I don't think I'd buy DVDs with only one format on them. You're right, APF, that for some people this might be a good idea, but I don't know if you'd be able to convince the anime companies that it's worth doing.
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Old 13-04-2003, 06:58 PM   #17   [permalink]
thedarkmarine
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I'd support it. Frankly, I do not use dub tracks. Making something faster while removing something I don't need, is just making something faster, and faster, cheaper, and all that good stuff is *gasp* good.
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Old 13-04-2003, 07:11 PM   #18   [permalink]
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Personally, I'd prefer the "hybrid" versions of anime DVDs. I like having the choice between sub and dub, as I use both at times, depending on the show/series I'm watching at the time.
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Old 15-04-2003, 01:57 AM   #19   [permalink]
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Quote:
Says Project Akira:
Apparently you have no idea about ADV's business practices. They released a few series as sub only on DVD, the most notable series being Nadia.
ADV, of course, being one of (if not the) biggest anime licensor(s) in the US. If anyone can afford to experiment, it's them. You won't see it widespread unless people's tastes change on a large scale.
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Old 15-04-2003, 08:18 AM   #20   [permalink]
Likkle Baer
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If only they would release things sub-only *sighs*

Provided you can read and aren't blind or something why on earth would you WANT to watch dubbed anime anyway?

Dubbing is almost always appallingly bad and I don't like how they often simplify the story and add stuff to make the characters seem like surfer dudes or something. I want the original vocal track and music everytime.

And if it was actually cheaper and released in the UK I might even be tempted away from HK DVDs entirely.

People might say that HK DVD subs are bad sometimes but I've noticed some bad mistranslations on official releases too and I don't even know that much Japanese.

I think companies should concentrate on decent subtitled translations for the ORIGINAL versions of series.

I would definately support such a move.
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Old 15-04-2003, 01:06 PM   #21   [permalink]
Dr0nak
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Quote:
Originally posted by Likkle Baer:
Provided you can read and aren't blind or something why on earth would you WANT to watch dubbed anime anyway?
Let's not turn this into a sub vs. dub thread, OK? Simply put, some people *like* watching dubs. And if they do, that's all the reason they need for watching them. If you don't like dubs, fine, you don't have to watch them. But don't get down on people who do like them. After all, we're all doing the same thing -- watching what we enjoy. It shouldn't matter if some people watch it with a spoken translation while others watch it with a written translation.

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Old 15-04-2003, 05:38 PM   #22   [permalink]
Westlo
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Would I support dub only releases?

No way.

It's just a waste of time & effort for the company, I'll rather they focus on bringing it over quicker than releasing 2 seperate versions.

And IIRC Dub tapes outsold sub tapes 9-1 back in the VHS days, Bilingual DVDS have been the bestthing to happen to anime period.

And LB was the last dub you watched Overfiend or something?
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Old 15-04-2003, 06:33 PM   #23   [permalink]
Likkle Baer
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Dr0nak - this IS a sub versus dub thread what else is its purpose? You can't refer to the dub as a 'spoken translation' since they are not as interested in using an accurate translation as they are in making the lip-sync match up. That's why every time a character opens their mouth a little its usually dubbed with "huh?" or some other such garbage that simply isn't present in the original. Have you heard the Hellsing dub? They've obviously decided that they can improve upon the original by making every other word a swear word. And for another thing voice-acting in Japan is as respected a profession as live-acting, in some cases more so, in America they seem to just go for the cheapest 'actors' they can find and as a result you get stuck with people who couldn't get a part in a school play.

I think it would be a mark of respect to all those involved in creating the original if anime was only available in its intended form since I can't imagine any artist with pride in their work being happy with what is in some cases a complete reworking and 'americanisation' of their creative output.

Westlo - If you mean Urotsukidoji, I had it in a raw unsubbed version shortly after its release in Japan and so never had the misfortune to see it dubbed. I now have the Region 1 Perfect Collection so I guess I've been spared it forever.
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Old 16-04-2003, 01:17 AM   #24   [permalink]
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally posted by Likkle Baer
Dr0nak - this IS a sub versus dub thread what else is its purpose? You can't refer to the dub as a 'spoken translation' since they are not as interested in using an accurate translation as they are in making the lip-sync match up. That's why every time a character opens their mouth a little its usually dubbed with "huh?" or some other such garbage that simply isn't present in the original. Have you heard the Hellsing dub? They've obviously decided that they can improve upon the original by making every other word a swear word.

Actually the original Hellsing was toned down so they can get it to air in Japan. It aired at like 1.45am or something and many words were censored on the fansubs I have for episodes 5 and 6. The English dub is a more accurate represntation of the dialouge for Hellsing, not the edited Japanese dub. It also had proper accents unlike the japanese dub.

And on the topic of lip-sync vs accurate translation, either way the dubbing studios can't win.

And for another thing voice-acting in Japan is as respected a profession as live-acting, in some cases more so, in America they seem to just go for the cheapest 'actors' they can find and as a result you get stuck with people who couldn't get a part in a school play.

With attitudes like yours English Voice Acting will never be a respected profession. How could it ever be when people are saying they should never do it in the first place.

I think it would be a mark of respect to all those involved in creating the original if anime was only available in its intended form since I can't imagine any artist with pride in their work being happy with what is in some cases a complete reworking and 'americanisation' of their creative output.
I seem to recall a japanses director telling his VA's that he wanted them to have more emotion and act better for the next series/ova of a certain anime that was being made.

He showed them an example of another teams work. What did he show them, he showed them the english dub of the first ova that was produced for this series.

The series is Your Under Arrest.
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Old 16-04-2003, 07:44 PM   #25   [permalink]
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Hi Westlo ^_^

Firstly - I'm not aware that the Japanese have an equivalent for some of the swear words used in Hellsing. I know enough Japanese to recognise when swearing is used and the dub used far more than was there.

Secondly - the Japanese track ISN'T a dub since it is the ORIGINAL track and a 'dub' means that a track has been replaced ie overdubbed.

Also - I prefer Japanese accents to American accents. American voice-actors over-emphasise their dialogue in many cases, which I find annoying. Japanese and English voice-actors don't tend to do this.

Dubbing anime is akin to taking the Venus De Milo and sticking arms on it just because it would make more sense to the american public.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, it isn't unheard of for america to move into something, change it to suit themselves and say they've made it better.

A dub is all about dumming it down to make it more accessible to americans just like Harry Potter and the Philosopher's/Sorceror's Stone. If you want another example 1988 James Bond film License to Kill was originally going to be entitled License Revoked until a survey revealed 82% of the american public didn't know what 'revoked' means.
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Old 16-04-2003, 10:47 PM   #26   [permalink]
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Likkle Baer: Settle down, this isn't a sub vs. dub thread. God knows there are enough of those around.

I understand where you are coming from in not liking dubs, and I generally agree with you. But I still am not against the existence of dubs; I just don't like to watch them, and don't think I should have to pay for them if I'm not going to watch them.

Dubbing is a fairly new artistic dillema; most are against dubs of foreign films, but anime presents an entirely new problem in that the characters and the voices are seperate to begin with. I'm not going to explain why I prefer subs here, this thread is not the place for it. My major point is, people shouldn't have to buy something they don't want merely because they are bundled with what they do.
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Old 17-04-2003, 12:06 AM   #27   [permalink]
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i wouldn't buy a sub only DVD, if there was a hybrid due for release.

The only "sub only" release i'm looking at is the Macross series (i do watch both subbed and dubbed).

what's the point if they are going to release a hybrid at a later date (probably cheaper as well due to higher expected sales).

As people have mentioned sub only releases whilst technically cheaper to produce in pure start up cost, are not actually cheaper than the dub to produce when you look at the sales and the return from the sales.

Something that cost 50,000 and sells 25,000 copies is not cheaper in cost per unit than something that costs 100,000 and sells 60,000 copies (with retail and manufacturing it is the expected cost/profit per unit that is important not the actual initicial cost if that makes sense).

Subbed VHS sold a lot less copies than the dub (so replication costs were higher/less stores were willing to sell it).

Dubbed releases only have the dub cost extra (which is probably not much compared to licence and translation), and sold a lot more copies.

Say the Dub cost as much again as the licence/translation, then they would only need to outsell the sub release by 2 to 1 to make the same profit (from what i've read/seen they actually outsold the subbed stuff by a lot more than that)



Sub only release

Pro
Faster to the market
Possibly cheaper...(but unlikely as the 2 of the 3 main costs are still present but it won't sell as many copies)

Cons
the market for it disappears as soon as the hybrid (with all the same content plus some).
Costs more in the long term (2 seperate sets of masters, smaller production runs = higher cost per unit).


Hybrid
Pro's
Cheaper per unit cost (one set of masters, packaging, and bulk savings when replicating)
Retailers only need space for one item on the shelves
Keeps both sides happy (subs for those who want to watch it subbed, dub for those who want it dubbed).
No 15 for the Dub, 20 for the Sub price differences (an example of what it used to cost in the U.K. now it's usually 15 for the hybrid DVD if you look around)

Cons
Higher initial cost (recouped in overall sales fairly quickly though, so borderline)
Longer wait until it reaches the market.


As someone has already said, DVD has been a godsend for the anime market for severall reasons
Both sets of content on a single media (keeps both sets of fans happy)
Easier for the publishers to deal with (no more twin production runs, one for subbed and one for dubbed)
Easier for retailers (no more stocking both versions, which means more shelf space for other stuff).

If anything i suspect that dubbed anime has often subsidised the subbed releases.


Quote:
Originally posted by APF
My major point is, people shouldn't have to buy something they don't want merely because they are bundled with what they do.
In the U.K. a good point could be made about the validity of including subs with Anime, as it costs the publishers more to get a release with subs + dub past the censors, and as only a small percentage of people buying the DVD will make use of it, it can be classed as an unwarrented additional cost.
One of the (few) Anime publishers/distributors still active in the U.K has stopped adding subs/japanese tracks to most of their new releases for this reason.
Something that I can understand from a business point of view (it costs them less in lost sales that it would to include it and pay the additional censors fees), but loathe as an anime fan.
They have also cut down on DVD extra's as well (another case of it costing to get them on the disk).

Fortunately ADV and Manga for all their faults are releasing DVD's with both sub and dub where they have the raw materials.
ADV are paying for a fair amount of new stuff to get rated for release in the U.K. and could just go for the dub track but are paying for the sub track as well.
For this reason i'm willing to pay about 20-30% extra per DVD and get their U.K releases as opposed to Madman or U.S. versions (sounds daft but i want to support a company that gives the fans a choice).


P.S.
Likkle Bear, the original Japanese track is most certainly a dub
In the same manner Disney and the Simpons are always dubbed.
Dub = adding sound to film (or adding new sound to film, both are correct and applicable to anime).
Animation is always dubbed as there is no way for it to have an original track done at the time of creation (as in live action film where the vocal recording can often be done at the same time as filming*).
The simple act of recording and adding a soundtrack with spoken language seperately to the visual side of things is dubbing it (it doesn't make any distinction between the first dub and the thirty first).


P.P.S.
If anyone is still reading

Re the Hellsing Dub.
From what i've heard/seen most of the changes were to correct locations etc (making the English dub more accurate than the Japanese, an improvement if anything).
This may not be important to say an Australian or American, or even known to a Japanese person, but to someone who live in England or knows england's layout/history reading/hearing something saying "x is south of y" or "a is near b" when you know it's not** can totally ruin the credability of an otherwise good story (imagine how you would react if i said that Perth was in New South Wales, or Ayers Rock was near Melbourne..).
Oh and as an English guy, the dub accents for Hellsing were quite passible (although maybe a little to victorian/Dick Van Dyke at times).



*Although there is a lot of ADR (Additional Dub Recording) used to redo bits of script that weren't caught properly during filiming etc in things like Farscape

**Rather like the film "Krakatoa East of Java", if you can point out the innacuracy there you'll get what i mean (it doesn't really affect the film, but it's a constant reminder that the researchers/marketing didn't check or didn't care about the accuracy)

Krakatoa is 40 miles WEST of Java

Last edited by Nilrem; 17-04-2003 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 17-04-2003, 08:13 AM   #28   [permalink]
Likkle Baer
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Quote:
Originally posted by APF
My major point is, people shouldn't have to buy something they don't want merely because they are bundled with what they do.
I'm perfectly calm and I totally agree - but I think arguing is fun! It gets the blood pumping and makes me look healthy for a change ^_^

I do have a major personal objection to the fact that what is available to ME is limited by what the majority of people want - I hate to pay more or be patronised in this fashion. The whole point of having stuff from another culture is to experience something different imo.

Many people won't watch subtitled films at all (not just Japanese stuff) and I find this amazingly odd and can only assume that such people are either incapable of reading the subtitles or too lazy to do so.

The trouble is that until we can convince the companies that a large enough market exists for sub-only anime it simply won't be produced regularly. Point me in the direction of a petition for this and I'll sign up immediately to lend my support - otherwise this is just so much hot air so to speak.
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Old 20-04-2003, 07:46 AM   #29   [permalink]
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I would rather buy the subs because they are cheaper (about $20 more so for me), but some of the subbing I saw on the Sub DVD's changed the names of characters and other things. I know that this happens with the dubs but I find it annoying to have to read a completly different name then what I hear. So to save myself a headach I buy the sub/dub DVD's. That's my experiance with some of the sub only I've seen. I also like buying the sub/dub so I can compare them.
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Old 20-04-2003, 09:18 AM   #30   [permalink]
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Let me start by saying this is a sub vs dub thread. And unless one of us has shares in an anime distribution firm that they're keeping quiet about, this whole thing is academic anyway

Quote:
Hybrid
Pro's
Cheaper per unit cost (one set of masters, packaging, and bulk savings when replicating)
Retailers only need space for one item on the shelves
Keeps both sides happy (subs for those who want to watch it subbed, dub for those who want it dubbed).[/B]
Those first two points are more than enough reason for the distributors to go with hybrid DVDs. All the purist arguments in the world don't make up for a difference in the bottom line.

Quote:
No £15 for the Dub, £20 for the Sub price differences
Incidentally, I suspect that was a large factor in subs not selling as well. It was the same with widescreen, it was an 'extra' so you had to pay more for it.

Quote:
One of the (few) Anime publishers/distributors still active in the U.K has stopped adding subs/japanese tracks to most of their new releases for this reason.
That's scary. I certainly won't buy anime without subtitles.

Quote:
They have also cut down on DVD extra's as well (another case of it costing to get them on the disk).
I don't mind that, as I have often thought the extras were only there as filler anyway. I'd rather have 6 eps on a DVD, than 3 eps and a bunch of extras.

Quote:
Fortunately ADV and Manga for all their faults are releasing DVD's with both sub and dub where they have the raw materials.
That's all I ask of them. Give me what I want, and I'll buy it. But take away the subs and I'll import it instead, or even buy HKDVDs.

Quote:
(sounds daft but i want to support a company that gives the fans a choice).
Makes good sense to me.

Quote:
Likkle Bear, the original Japanese track is most certainly a dub
In the same manner Disney and the Simpons are always dubbed.
Dub = adding sound to film (or adding new sound to film, both are correct and applicable to anime).
Actually, the soundtrack is laid down before the animation is added. Then everything is timed to match it.

Quote:
The simple act of recording and adding a soundtrack with spoken language seperately to the visual side of things is dubbing it (it doesn't make any distinction between the first dub and the thirty first).
In this context, I think we can agree that dubbing refers to a soundtrack that is added later, often by a different studio, in a different language.

Quote:
**Rather like the film "Krakatoa East of Java", if you can point out the innacuracy there you'll get what i mean
That's a classic goof
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