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Old 26-11-2001, 09:50 PM   #46   [permalink]
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shenrezade
You raise good points, Sheex. I'm glad we can have a legible discussion. Unlike your chats with some people. (*cough* Black_Knight!!*cough*) I did know that Allen was protecting his sister, But he chose to fight Van. I really think that Van would have left her alone if Allen had told Van a bit more than he did about Dilandu. I also knew that the F.A. machine was affecting them, which kinda supports my theory about the whole episode being an excuse for Allen and Van to fight each other. And, in my opinion, Van didn't need to beat Allen. There wasn't a reason to reslove a duel in the first place.
I think if the whole episode was an excuse for them to fight, then the stuff that was built up through the series wouldn't have happened and the fight would have been longer than the 2-3 minutes that it was Due to Van's current state of mind with his brother dying mere minutes ago, I highly doubt he would have left that dismembered red Guymelef alone unless Serena suddenly came out of there and showed him that she was no longer Dilandau. Since Van had no idea of that, it makes perfect sense for him to want to kill Dilandau, and think that Allen is crazy for protecting him. After all, it was Dilandau who ordered Fanelia to be burnt to the ground, wouldn't you be a little upset and eager to go through anyone who got in your way? 0


Secondly, when I said they threw away everthing that made the series good, I was talking plot-wise. I wasn't sure what I was expecting to see as a final episode, but from what the plot gave me, I know it wasn't that. I know, it's my bad that I don't have a reason. I got some, but I can't remeber what they are. What do you mean, though, when you said Hitomi did what she wanted to do?

Give reasons instead of senseless criticism. What the series was trying to say was that there is no such thing as predetermined fate, its something that each person must create on their own. And thats exactly what the final episode showed. All the relationships were resolved, the big war on Gaea was resolved (in an insanely fast method unfortunately), etc... As for your question, Hitomi wanted to go home the entire series, thats what she did.

Please don't think I'm bashing the relationship developement between Van and Hitomi. I think it's the best I've seen in any anime so far. I'm just saying because of that, they deserve to stay together, physically. I don't think Hitomi should have stayed on Gaea, but Van could have at least gone to her in the flesh, rather than the metaphysical.

There is nothing in the final episode that doesn't say they can't see each other whenever they want. Van and Hitomi are from 2 different worlds, and I don't think, atleast in this point in time that either should abandon their particular life in their home world.
You know, though, I wonder why Sunrise yanked those episodes. Think what Escaflowne would be like if they weren't yanked. Would it be better? Or worse? Shall we continue this debate of ours, Sheex?
Escaflowne was originally going to be a 39 episode series. The creators wrote up the entire plot, story, etc... then went into production. The ratings weren't too good after the first few episodes put on the air, so Sunrise decided that they would remove the final 13 episodes from the show. While this resulted in the pacing of the show to be extremely fast after episode 12 or so, it also is the reason for Escaflowne having no filler whatsoever. So its a mixed blessing. Its good that every single scene in the show is important to the story/characters somehow, but at the same time plenty of those episodes in the second half of the series deserved a little more than just the single episode worth of time that they were given.
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Old 27-11-2001, 04:22 AM   #47   [permalink]
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I agree that if no one had stopped him, Van would've cut Dilandu to pieces, but Dilandu wouldn't have turned into Celena in the first place, either. The fate alteration machine messed up Allen, as well as Van. Did he say "Zaibach experimented on her and turned her into Dilandu"? did he say "I haven't just found my sister only to lose her again"? And he didn't say "please try to understand, Van! She's all I have, now!" either. He said "Her crimes are mine, now fight me to the best of your ability, or I'll kill you" or at least something along those lines. With a flick of his sword he could've disarmed Van and gotten Celena out of there, but he didn't. He tried to kill him. Him fighting Van had nothing to do with protecting his sister. She was just the excuse he needed that started it.

The final episode said that mankind has a love for war and bloodshed, but love could break that attachment to war. It didn't say there was no such thing as "pre-determined fate." Here's some reasons that I forgot in my last post(I finally remebered some!!) What role did Escaflowne play in the ending? All through the series Escaflowne seemed to have an important role, that would be shown in the final episode, but it went haywire and Van dumped it. Then, during the final moments, he removes the energist and says "Thanks, Escaflowne." FOR WHAT!!? For letting me down!!? Also, what did Hitomi need to be saved from? She wasn't in any danger, as far as I saw. I was expecting her to be in some situation like Deedlit was when Parn rescued her in the Lodoss OVA. However, all that happens is that she and Issac have a little chat. The uneccessary fight, as I mentioned. And an answer of whether Millerna loved Dryden or Allen at the end. Don't tell me she didn't love Dryden, cause she got some feelings for him after she got to know him. Are those solid reasons? And, yes, at the beginning she wanted to go home, but when she got home she wanted to go back, because she missed her friends and was worried about them. And at teh very end, she wanted to stay with Van. She said, "I want to see it (the Gaea without war) with you. Or can I?" So what she wanted to do changed at the end.

I'm not saying that they should abandon their lives in their home worlds at that point in time, either. I'm saying that at the very end, after the credits, time should have passed, and they should've shown Van and Hitomi get together, instead of the image of Van that Hitomi sees on the rocks, after she goes back. Tell me the truth, do you think they deserved to be separated from each other after everything they went through to realize their love for each other?

I don't know if you know it or not, but there was a PS game of Escaflowne, that told the story of Escaflowne in an interactive way. However, it had scenes that weren't in the show. Do you think the game had the parts that were cut from the show? I'd like to find out. Well, I think you have the board, now, Mr. Sheex.


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Old 27-11-2001, 08:13 PM   #48   [permalink]
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shenrezade
I agree that if no one had stopped him, Van would've cut Dilandu to pieces, but Dilandu wouldn't have turned into Celena in the first place, either. The fate alteration machine messed up Allen, as well as Van. Did he say "Zaibach experimented on her and turned her into Dilandu"? did he say "I haven't just found my sister only to lose her again"? And he didn't say "please try to understand, Van! She's all I have, now!" either. He said "Her crimes are mine, now fight me to the best of your ability, or I'll kill you" or at least something along those lines. With a flick of his sword he could've disarmed Van and gotten Celena out of there, but he didn't. He tried to kill him. Him fighting Van had nothing to do with protecting his sister. She was just the excuse he needed that started it.
Which is what I'm trying to say Its not a useless battle, its a battle caused by Van's intent to kill Dilandau/Serena, Allen's attempts to protect him/her, and the Fate Redirector Machine magnifying their feelings so much that these 2 friends would fight each other like so. And no, Allen never said anything about killing Van.
------
Van: Allen.
Allen: Don't, Van! Draw back your sword!
Van: He's possessed by fighting. I'll kill him to eliminate the root of the evil on Gaea!
Allen: No! Even if you kill Dilandau, people won't be free from grief!
Van: What?
//Van swipes at Allen.
Van: How can you understand the sadness of someone who lost his country?!
Allen: I'll be your opponent. Dilandau is my sister!
//Allen blocks Van's attack.
Van: Allen, have you gone crazy?
Allen: Her sin is my sin, even though she was controlled by Zaibach's black magic. You don't have to hold back! Defeat me! Fight me, Van Fanel! The Knight of Heaven, Allen Schezar, will fight you as best as I can!
-------
Van showed no intention of stopping his assault on Dilandau, so Allen had no choice but to protect his sister by fighting Van. The dialogue supports me



The final episode said that mankind has a love for war and bloodshed, but love could break that attachment to war. It didn't say there was no such thing as "pre-determined fate."


Actually, they did mention it, Hitomi said something along the lines of that in the last episode The message that the show tried to portray is that fate is caused by the actions of people. Its not something that is set in stone, it can be changed. They don't spell out everything for ya, you gotta look a little deeper in to it. Granted, its not a Lain or Evangelion in philisophical terms, but its no DBZ either.


Here's some reasons that I forgot in my last post(I finally remebered some!!) What role did Escaflowne play in the ending? All through the series Escaflowne seemed to have an important role, that would be shown in the final episode, but it went haywire and Van dumped it.

Van was the important element, not Escaflowne. I thought they made that pretty clear too Dornkirk was simply scared of Escaflowne because he had visions of it destoying Zaibach. Van was the important 'dragon' role, and in the end it was he who ended up disabling the Atlantis machine.

Then, during the final moments, he removes the energist and says "Thanks, Escaflowne." FOR WHAT!!? For letting me down!!?

Oh I don't know... Only a mech to pilot for 25 episodes, I guess Van owes Escaflowne no gratitude.


Also, what did Hitomi need to be saved from? She wasn't in any danger, as far as I saw. I was expecting her to be in some situation like Deedlit was when Parn rescued her in the Lodoss OVA. However, all that happens is that she and Issac have a little chat.

Van didn't go to rescue her, he just went to be with her again. They never potrayed it as something vital and important in the first place, if so I think they would have spent more time on that oh so short scene -_-


And an answer of whether Millerna loved Dryden or Allen at the end. Don't tell me she didn't love Dryden, cause she got some feelings for him after she got to know him.

She couldn't decide between the 2 of them for most of the series, why do you think she'd suddenly make up her mind? Escaflowne doesn't suddenly make its characters act out of character like other shows


Are those solid reasons? And, yes, at the beginning she wanted to go home, but when she got home she wanted to go back, because she missed her friends and was worried about them. And at teh very end, she wanted to stay with Van. She said, "I want to see it (the Gaea without war) with you. Or can I?" So what she wanted to do changed at the end.
What, this whole "No!!!! Hitomi went home!!! The endings ruined!!" argument again? I've had enough of this, watch the episodes from beginning to end CAREFULLY and you'll understand her feelings better.


I'm not saying that they should abandon their lives in their home worlds at that point in time, either. I'm saying that at the very end, after the credits, time should have passed, and they should've shown Van and Hitomi get together, instead of the image of Van that Hitomi sees on the rocks, after she goes back. Tell me the truth, do you think they deserved to be separated from each other after everything they went through to realize their love for each other?

They can't all have ultra-happy everyone gets together type endings. Thats what I like about Escaflowne's ending. Its realistic. Hitomi isn't going to suddenly abandon everyone on Earth to be with Van, who she loved for a grand total of THREE episodes (and didn't admit it til the finale). Escaflowne's great at showing how their relationship developed, but this isn't a perfect world and who knows if they'd be the perfect couple years away. Thats why they didn't go showing them in their 20's being together. Besides, don't you think the ending they used would result in a better sequel if they ever decided to make one? (which they have expressed interest in BTW)


I don't know if you know it or not, but there was a PS game of Escaflowne, that told the story of Escaflowne in an interactive way. However, it had scenes that weren't in the show. Do you think the game had the parts that were cut from the show? I'd like to find out. Well, I think you have the board, now, Mr. Sheex.

No, the game's got nothing to do with the series' plot at all and features animation not as good as the series' You can see pics/scripts at my website: http://www.escaflowneonline.com/game/
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Old 27-11-2001, 11:03 PM   #49   [permalink]
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Actually, Allen caught Van's attention by saying that Dilandu was his sister. When Van said "Are you crazy?" Ithink he meant in the sense of "Dilandu's a guy!" Explaining this more might have ended the battle. Instead, Allen urged Van to fight him, and had every intention of killing Van, just as Van wanted to kill Allen. It started as a meaningful battle, but quickly degenerated into a useless brawl. Even Issac said it. "It is what they wish."

As I recall, Issac said that he was unable to control fate after all. Hitomi replied "Are you giving up? I don't believe in pre-determined fate." That has nothing to do with it. When Van came for Hitomi, their love for each other was so strong, it was able to undo the effect of the Zone of Absolute Fortune. Issac said "Can it be that their love for each other can surpass even man's love for war?" Sadly, I haven't seen Lain yet. It's much easier to comprehend than Eva, also. Or was that what you meant? And, while I like DBZ, please don't ever mention it in the same sentence as Escaflowne!

Sorry about that, my bad

I can't see him saying thanks merely for that. And besides, It almost killed him! TWICE!!

What do you mean they never showed it as anything vital in the first place? What do you think they were building up to during the whole second half of the series!? Van and Hitomi were what broke the Atlantis machine. Neither one could have done it separately. Van felt that Hitomi was in trouble and desparately needed to get to her(I still don't know why.) If he merely wanted to see her again he wouldn't have put as much importance on it as he did.

For the beginning she liked Allen. Crap, she even said she'd dump her own country for him!! And at first she didn't care much for Dryden, up until she found out Allen had a kid, and that Dryden wasn't the letcher she thought he was. I think she realized she admired Allen, rather than loved him. After they got married, she started liking Dryden more, but this might have been because Allen was paying attention to Hitomi. Then, Dryden, in a great act, realizes that neither of them are ready yet, and decides to split up, to give her more time to think up her decision.
After that, we never see him again. What happens?

In case you forgot, the entire series was about the relationship between Van and Hitomi. The writer said as much. I never thought the ending was ruined, I just thought it was bad that she never got to stay with Van. I know she wanted to, and I also know she knew they both had responsiblities (for the time being) on their own worlds. But that shouldn't have caused them to give up each other entirely.

She didn't love Van for a grand total of three episodes. She had feelings for him for most of the series, she just wasn't sure of them, and felt like Van didn't share those feelings. (Boy was she ever wrong.) Need I remind you that the episode is called "Eternal Love?" Their love for each other was something that would never die, and could cross any boundary. Why, then, should it have to cross those for all eternity? And by the way, I know the writer reeeeeaallly wants to make a sequel, but I doubt sunrise, being themselves, would ever agree to it. I mean, these are the people who shot down 13 episodes of Escaflowne, and canceled Big O right when the series hit break-neck speed in the story(I wanna know what happens next, dammit!!), among other things. Their thinking would be "What? Escaflowne? We already did that!"

Really? I thought it did. It does have Merle, Allen, Hitomi, and the rest of the crew, doesn't it? Is it like some sort of omake plot, or something, then?

I'm betting this is one of your better discussions, isn't it Sheex?
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Old 28-11-2001, 12:31 AM   #50   [permalink]
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shenrezade
What do you mean they never showed it as anything vital in the first place?
Hitomi's need to be rescued from there. She obviously wasn't in any danger a la other parts of the series when she was in trouble.

She didn't love Van for a grand total of three episodes. She had feelings for him for most of the series, she just wasn't sure of them, and felt like Van didn't share those feelings. (Boy was she ever wrong.) Need I remind you that the episode is called "Eternal Love?" Their love for each other was something that would never die, and could cross any boundary. Why, then, should it have to cross those for all eternity?

Hitomi couldn't really admit to herself that she was in love with Van until late in the series and for most of the first 23 episodes her crush on Allen hindered most of the chance than Van ever had As much as I like their relationship, I think people at this board/the now-deceased Anime Shack board have a tendency to overrate it to an insane extent. And outside of the episode title, there's no attempt to put off the relationship as some eternal, crossing all bounds, will never end relationship. Not bashing it or anything, it is my fave anime after all, but I think people go a little too overboard on this ending thing.

Thats all
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Old 28-11-2001, 04:37 AM   #51   [permalink]
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So then you agree with me about Hitomi not being in any danger, then?

Precisely my point. They didn't do anything with Van's and Hitomi's relationship other than the image of Van on the rocks. As Hurricane Helmsley says (btw he is the only reason that I watch wrestling. He parodies it like no one else.) "What's up wit dat?" After everything they went through, it derserved a little more screen time time than Sunrise gave it. I wonder if any of the yanked episodes had more in them.....

Ah, yes, before I forget. Dornkirk, and various others, stated that Escaflowne was a key element to Altlantis technology. It also performed several strange things over the course of the anime. Yet, they never really finished this idea. Once the idea of Hitomi affecting the FA machine struck the scriptwriters, Escaflowne's connection with Atlantis was utterly dropped with no conclusion. WHAT IS ESCAFLOWNE'S LINK WITH ATLANTIS!!?

Have we reached a common ground, or should we move on, Sheex?
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Old 28-11-2001, 11:07 AM   #52   [permalink]
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So then you agree with me about Hitomi not being in any danger, then?

Precisely my point. They didn't do anything with Van's and Hitomi's relationship other than the image of Van on the rocks. As Hurricane Helmsley says (btw he is the only reason that I watch wrestling. He parodies it like no one else.) "What's up wit dat?" After everything they went through, it derserved a little more screen time time than Sunrise gave it. I wonder if any of the yanked episodes had more in them.....

Eww... Hurricane Helms? Can't stand him, thank god he's gone No episodes were yanked, they just had to rush everything in the second half of the series. Its not that footage was made, then never aired, the footage was never made in the first place even though it was originally planned in the story.

Ah, yes, before I forget. Dornkirk, and various others, stated that Escaflowne was a key element to Altlantis technology. It also performed several strange things over the course of the anime. Yet, they never really finished this idea. Once the idea of Hitomi affecting the FA machine struck the scriptwriters, Escaflowne's connection with Atlantis was utterly dropped with no conclusion. WHAT IS ESCAFLOWNE'S LINK WITH ATLANTIS!!?
You're right, something they didn't explain enough But as the series reached its end, the focus on Escaflowne pretty much dropped off, so atleast you can't say they were talking about how important Escaflowne was in episode 25, then forgot about it in episode 26.

Have we reached a common ground, or should we move on, Sheex?

Yep, I think this is pretty much resolved
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Old 29-11-2001, 01:53 AM   #53   [permalink]
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Shenrezade why do you have the impression that escaflowne did nothing at all for Van.

Escaflowne saved Van's ass on many occasions and how else was he going to combat the zaibach melefs? hand to hand maybe

I could go on and list how many times escaflowne saved his butt, but i can't be bothered
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Old 29-11-2001, 03:18 AM   #54   [permalink]
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Ah, I see. I thought they had already made the episodes and then Sunrise yanked them. Gomen ne. Good point with the Escaflowne importance thing. Well, that was fun!! :

I'm not saying that Escaflowne didn't do anything for Van, Westlo. I'm just saying I can't see him saying "Thanks Escaflowne" at the end of the series, as if Escaflowne did something impoortant that saved everyone on Gaea recently.
Escaflowne still almost killed Van twice, though. But maybe I'm just nitpicking. I just resolved this with Sheex and aren't very eager to start it up again right now.
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Old 29-11-2001, 06:32 AM   #55   [permalink]
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too bad i feel like arguing

So you're saying that you wouldn't thank something that has enabled you to gain revenge and save the world over the course of a long period of time. Even though escaflowne stuffed up in the end it symbolised that van didn't need escaflowne anymore and could do stuff himself.

He thanked it for the help it gave him and as a good bye to escaflowne which he was going to bury.

As for it nearly killed him twice, if it wasn't for escaflowne van would have been dead in ep two. I'll take escaflowne and the risks it posed than dieing, wouldn't you?
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Old 29-11-2001, 12:22 PM   #56   [permalink]
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Correction. If it weren't for Hitomi, Van would be dead in episode 2. Heck, he'd be dead in episode one, for crying out loud!! But then again, we wouldn't be debating about this if that had happened. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs.

Maybe I'd take the risks, but I wouldn't have tried to merge with it if I had known it was going to do that. Van piloted Escaflowne perfectly fine before merging with it, and all that really happened was that he ended up getting wounded. I don't see that as a fair exchange, do you?

Also, he could've said something more aside from just thanks. Like, thanks for all the help you gave me, but now you can rest? I'm just saying that they made it seem, as I said, like Escaflowne had done something worth thanking it for recently. And why would you say thank you for getting abandoned and learning that you don't need it?

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Old 29-11-2001, 06:23 PM   #57   [permalink]
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Quote:
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Correction. If it weren't for Hitomi, Van would be dead in episode 2. Heck, he'd be dead in episode one, for crying out loud!! But then again, we wouldn't be debating about this if that had happened. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs.
escaflpwne saves van and hitomis as much as hitomi saves van

Maybe I'd take the risks, but I wouldn't have tried to merge with it if I had known it was going to do that. Van piloted Escaflowne perfectly fine before merging with it, and all that really happened was that he ended up getting wounded. I don't see that as a fair exchange, do you?
and be killed by the dragonslayers instead k if thats what you want


Also, he could've said something more aside from just thanks. Like, thanks for all the help you gave me, but now you can rest? I'm just saying that they made it seem, as I said, like Escaflowne had done something worth thanking it for recently. And why would you say thank you for getting abandoned and learning that you don't need it?
lets see escaflowne didn't do anything worth a thanks between episodes 2-25 nah not any i can recall


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Old 29-11-2001, 10:38 PM   #58   [permalink]
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True, but aren't we debating about a different subject?

But I was saying that Van defeated the Dragonslayers perfectly fine before merging with the Escaflowne. What did he need to merge with it for? Aside from wounding him when it got hurt, it also increased his desire to fight, which was why he went ballistic against the dragonslayers in episode 14. I know Van didn't like it very much after he realized what he did.

Again, I said that the writers made it sound like he thanked Escaflowne for something recently, as in episode 24 or 25. If he was saying thanks for all the help it gave it him up until that point, he should have said so. And if it helped him to realize he didn't need to rely on it, he also should've said so. But just saying "thanks" and nothing more sounds like it saved Gaea in the Last Battle, which it didn't. Van and Hitomi did that.

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