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Old 01-07-2000, 04:23 AM   #1   [permalink]
eva2000
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Access
NERV-Technician
(4/27/00 9:54:44 pm)
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Love
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Here is a question that has circulated around many boards... I thought I would introduce the question here.

Does Shinji romatically love anybody....Kaoru, Misato, Auska or Rei.

What about any love shown in return. Kaoru did say he loves Shinji but this proabbly is a higher form of love, one of respect, not one of being homosexual. What about Rei or Misato or Asuka.... those dreams he has of picking to be with one of them.... in the unedited EVA sequences Shinji sleeps with Asuka, but only in his dream...is this a reflection of his true emotions. What about Misato "That is a grown up kiss.. We will finish when you get back". Signs of love were shown then.. but of course that could of been a last gift to Shinji, but does that imply that Shinji loved Misato. Their certainly was a bond between Misato and Shinji maybe one of a parent but what about anything further.

What about the relationship with Rei...Did Shinji love Rei, probably not, but did Rei love Shinji and not just in the sence of her being a clone of Yui. She showed true effections stonger to him than anybody "Thankyou...Words of gratitude...words I have never spoken....even with him (refering to Gendo)". In EoE when things merged some things were said about a more in depth relationship with Shinji...Was this just a mothers love...or more.

Now Asuka he ended up with her at the end... he obviously liked her sexually the scene in his dreams and that ummm....inncident. But did he Love Her?
Access


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(4/27/00 10:58:24 pm)
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Finally (prob with browser)

This is a very good question and a good topic.
Romantic love, its safe to say Karou, and Rei were more in the realm of the higher love

while both Misato and Asuka were lower down. Exactly how far down is up for discussion. I dont think Misato would have done any thing of a sexaul nature with Shinji, Asuka

well maybe, if her ego didnt get in the way.

(a very interesting thing to read here would be Freud's -
The Universal tendancy towards debasement in love. Now i know some of you will scoff at the very mention of Freud, but Jung, was one of Freuds best pupils and if im not mistaken Anno-san read a bit of Jung)

ATh




corpse
NERV-Technician
(4/27/00 11:17:58 pm)
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didnt freud imply that every son had a sexuzl yearnign towards their mother...like in the play oedipus rex?
would this relate to rei at all?

and i think that asuka did have some inkling towards shinji becoz she offered to kiss becoz she "had nothing better to do" ( id ont know if this is exactly right). i think deep down she repects shinji for his ability to fight but wont show her true feelings becoz she is 'strong'.


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(4/28/00 8:06:44 am)
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I think many people 'loved' Shinji, although in different ways, during the series. We see Yui, Misato, and Kaji directing agape - in the sense of selfless, nurturing love - towards Shinji(Yui during ep20 when she/Unit01 decide to give birth again to Shinji after the salvage attempt fails).
About Asuka, I think her relationship harbors eros - sexual, biological 'love' - for Shinji and she becomes consciously aware of it, but it seems like she struggles with a number of factors that prevents her from pursuing it. First, she is aware that Shinji is attracted to Rei, and she fears that the indecisive Shinji might not make a choice, or make a choice unacceptable to her.(In the scene in EoE right before Shinji strangles her in his apartment, she says something to the effect of "Unless you're wholly going to be mine, I don't want you.) Second, she herself is struggling with the fact that she is attracted to someone who she thought was inferior to her.
Still, it's hard to reconcile these views with the final scene in EoE, when she caresses Shinji's cheek, but says, "Gross." (Incidentally, that phrase can also be interpreted as, "I feel sick" or "You make me feel sick".)


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(4/28/00 10:10:10 am)
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First of all I do not belive that Kaworu was Gay. I hate it when people think that because too many people are too shallow to believe that two men can love eachother and not be Gay. It was like a brotherly love or best friend love. They are true friends so of course they loved eachother but it wasn't sexual love.

Rei and Shinji shared a motherly love or brother sister love because they shared similar genes. And yes there was a thing about boy's being attracted to their own mother but Shinji is no Alabamian here. Rei obvioulsy loved Shinji for she sacrificed herself to save him.

Misato and Shinji share a Mother son Relationship. A very casual one however. They are roomates. Misato clearly loves Shinji like she was his mother. I don't even need to state examples of that. She felt the need to see to it that Shinji grows up and becomes a man so she gave him an "adult kiss" before she died. As to that doing the rest thing I don't know if she would. It would be cool for Shinji if she did but I'm sure that she said it because she knew she was going to die and it was her way of saying "Hey, there will be a next time"

Askua and Shinji are soulmates plain and simple. They love eachother but Shinji is too chicken and Askua is too proud to admit it. We know Shinji loves her because he chose to be with her forever during the third impact. We know she loves him because she wanted to kiss him and used the I'm bored thing as an excuse to do it. She also tried to kiss him in her sleep.

Therefore what we must conclude here is that Shinji is a real guru when it comes to the ladies and deserves a hand! *begins clapping hands* Congratulations Shinji!


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(4/28/00 10:26:02 am)
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"[Asuka] also tried to kiss him in her sleep."
When did this happen? You mean the Shinji tried to kiss her?

"Shinji is a real guru when it comes to the ladies..."
Shinji's behavior gives me the exact opposite impression. So many people direct love to him, yet he is passive about it. In fact, in his belief of his worthlessness, he actively avoids reception and reciprocation. Pretty sad kid. OTOH, Evangelion is in part a developmental account of how Shinji deals with his self-worth, and begins to take responsbility for his value.


Atomic
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(4/28/00 10:46:53 am)
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hi people, my computer offically died as of tuesday so i got no computer. i'm getting a new one, but it will probably be at least 1 week untill things turn back to normal.

so now your probably wondering where i'm posting this from. i'm doing this from a local internet place down on the esplanade in CAIRNS.

i reckon it would be a bit hard to know who shinji really likes, because he always looks depressed, sad or angry. he seen rei naked, kissed asuka, looked up asuka's dress (i supose he had no choice in an air vent), and he was looking at someone else, i can't remember who, during school, and the other guys were making fun of him


Access
NERV-Technician
(4/28/00 11:00:30 am)
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That was Rei.

Well I think the love between Shinji and Kaoru was deeper than just "brotherly love" not sexual of course, just a new category all together one of absolute highest respect no brother would say to another "I think I was born to meet you" it was something unseen. However whether the angels have a perception of love is not determined. But Kaoru was being open, and expressing how he felt.
Access


Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(4/28/00 12:55:00 pm)
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3foolishmen, when I said that he was a guru with the ladies I was being sarcastic. I was referring to how introverted he is and basically what he said. I thought that it was a given and that everybody would of picked up on that. Well next time I'll know.


3foolishmen
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(4/28/00 1:39:32 pm)
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Oh, it was? I didn't pick it up, especially since your whole post was totally sober in tone. Perhaps I may suggest that you stoop low from the heights of your genius and omniscience when talking to mere foolish mortals like me.


Exarch
NERV-Technician
(4/28/00 4:16:12 pm)
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Funny how we argree that so many people loved him
yet he felt so unwanted

I agree with all said before,
+
Asuka loved Shinji
in the final sceen when Shinji is trying to kill her
she puts her hand to his cheek,
had it been someone else she may have fought them off.
- in the final sceen there was only Shinji and Auska,
so there was no reason for Auska to act superior.
thus could act her true self.








eva2000
NERV-Commander-(Admin)
(4/28/00 4:40:51 pm)
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sorry to hear about your computer Atomic...


as for Shinji being introverted and passive, I remember reading up on this during my uni course subject, Peace and Conflic: non-violent action etc...

that passivity and introversion is a kind of power tool that people use over others.. i can't remember the specifics but it's a way of getting what you want ...


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(4/28/00 11:01:52 pm)
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Yes eva2000 ive done some of that myself, i think it was in some interpersonal skills course for my psych degree.
But when you think about it Shinji does get what he wants, all the time. He may not like it when he gets it but it is what he wanted.

The eight aspects of Love, that also brings back memories, but there is another model to consider- Jung's four types.

Placing Shinji in the middle of the crossbars, We place Asuka below in Sensation
Karou above in Intuition
Misato to the right in Intelectual and
Rei to the left in Feeling

This is of course open to dissuccion and i would like to hear what people have to say
(they may seem very odd at first glance)

ATh


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(4/29/00 1:03:20 am)
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Im not too sure where to put this so im putting it here

I was just going through my Eva files and i came across a pic called everyonewall.jpeg.

it has everyone, well sort of (not Asuka's nor Dr Akagi's mother, but Yui IS there)

BUT importantly it has Karou there as well.

(i have a strange feeling i got this image here at Eva2000)

ATh


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(4/29/00 7:44:09 am)
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Eva 2000: The idea of Shinji manipulating people under the cover of passivity is interesting, and like ATh follows up, Shinji usually does get his way. I never really understood why Asuka was attracted to Shinji, but I think your account gives some leeway for explanation. After all, Shinji is the son of Gendo; he might have inherited the tendency for ruthless manipulation of people. ^^;

ATh 401: Hey, I never thought I'd see Jungian theory on an Eva board! Been a while since I last looked into it too. What were the poles again? I know Introversion/Extraversion and Sensation/Intuition, but I'm not clear on the other two. Judgment/Thinking and wasn't there a P in the character types somewhere? <-I'm probably all mixed up here.

Maybe you can step into the shoes of the main characters and try the questionnaire to guesstimate their personality types. ^^;


eva2000
NERV-Commander-(Admin)
(4/29/00 10:12:50 am)
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ATH: yeah i believe the everyonewall image was from Ed's WallPaper gallery on my site http://www.eva2000.com/gallery/wallpaper/

I remember Jung's theory of psychological types, covered it back in my uni subjects for Managerial Behaviour and Organisational Behaviour as well... strange in my intro psych subjects I never came across it... or maybe i did but forget

From what i remember there's 4 dimensions which result in an outcome of 16 personality types ?

E ---------- I
S ---------- N
T ---------- F
J ---------- P

Extroversion vs Introversion
Sensing vs Intuition
Thinking vs Feeling
Judgement vs Perception


eva2000
NERV-Commander-(Admin)
(4/29/00 10:21:50 am)
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Quote:
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Maybe you can step into the shoes of the main characters and try the questionnaire to guesstimate their personality types. ^^;
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Is that the MBTI thingy ?

oh and i believe everyonewall picture is here

http://www.eva2000.com/gallery/w...ewall.html

Edited by eva2000 at: 4/29/00 10:21:50 am


A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(4/29/00 11:32:25 pm)
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Its my understanding that Anno-san had some knowledge of Jungian psychology (but i may be wrong).

Introversion- Extroversion is not exactly a type (im rusty on this as well) but a mode of consciousness? That we alternate between the two but most people tend towards one pole rather than the other.

then Sensation- Intuition, whether one lives life through the senses or through a higher intuition.

Thinking- Feeling, interesting to know that Jung saw emotion to be excessive Feeling and a bad thing.

Judgement- Perception, i know little about. From the sources i read i was under the impression that Jung did not like this as much as the others but found undeniable evidence for it. (or am i making this up? it has been a while)

(and i did this MBTI for one of my major assignments- Myer- Briggs something something)
No doubt that some Jungian knowning would be a benifit when watching the series.

Still, what do you think about the placements of some of the Women figures in Shinji's life??

ATh


Ordog
NERV-Technician
(4/30/00 12:30:51 am)
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One thing a lot of people are forgetting is Ritsuko, Naoka and Gendou. It seems obvious that the two females are intrested in Gendou, and think heavily on what he thinks of them. Naoka killed herself after it was revealed Gendou had no feelings for her, and Ritsuko destroyed Rei because she felt as a substitute for Rei. So i wonder did Gendou love them in return, obviosuly not but he did say before shooting Ritsuko how much he cared for her mother.

I also wonder whether Gendou loved Yui in return. I've heard a theory (from others) that Gendou killed Yui, is this true? Did Gendou love Yui?


Capt Jake
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(4/30/00 4:46:18 am)
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Gendo did not kill Yui. She dissapeared into Unit-01. It has been theorized however he planned the sync accident but I don't belive that. He was crushed enough after it happened the he totally changed into the heartless bastard who left his son that we see in the series. I have also heard that she planned it which is a possiblility. What I find most likely was that Naoko did it though. She had the skill and knowlege to and she had an obvious motive. She openly admitted to hating Yui because she was with her man. Naoko could of tried to kill Yui by doing that and instead of killing Yui she indirectly saved the world(sort of). Gendo loved Yui however. The reason why he wanted to initiate the impact so badly was so that he could be reunited with Yui for he loved her so much. He even said "Take me to Yui" or something like that when he ordered Rei to commune with Lilith. So yes he loved her indeed. Don't listen to those idiots at Eva-R if that was where you got it from because according to them Gendo never loved her but they are wrong about a lot of stuff. I know that Shinji said to Gendo(in his mind)in episode 20 "You hurt Touji and killed my Mother" but he was just saying tha out of anger and jumping to conclusions. Gendo loved Yui more than anything. Even more than his own son.


Access
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(4/30/00 4:48:03 pm)
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Well Gendo indeed loved Yui, more than he loved anyone else, as the Cap has said. His motivation wasnt just to see Yui again, he did in a way Kill Yui. The whole incident was planned. He wanted to bring around 3rd impact himself, and used Yui as the base soul in Unit01. Remmeber when Shinji got a 400% sync ratio with Unit-01 and Ritsuko says that the majority of the data on this came from 10 years ago. Thats was when Yui went into Unit-01.

In D:R a scene shows Fugitsu and Yui talking under a tree discussing if her going into Unit01 is the best thing for her but she says "Man can only live on Earth, but EVA can live on without the sun moon and earth, but I could be alone." Or something like that. It was all planned.

The newspapers during the static screens shown in EVA series say murder and all that sort of stuff. It was a set up. Everyone thought it was an accident to explain her disaperance. remmeber "Death is the beggining of life". She was put into Unit01. Remmeber how Yui on the day of the accident brought Shinji in, this was done because it would be the last time he saw her in a human form.

So Gendo did kill Yui to put her soul into EVA, but it was her idea and she wanted to do it. Fugitsu didn't like the idea though. Thats why Gendo tried so hard for 3rd impact to come around. To see Yui again, but if that was his main reason he wouldnt of tranfered her soul into EVA in the first place. So he wanted 3rd impact all along.
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A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(4/30/00 10:58:35 pm)
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There is also one major point which has been missed,

i forget the exact episode, but Shinji was going through some tramatic stuff in his head (how unusual), anyhow he gets on the topic of his mother. He may have even said here that his father had killed her but then he recalls something which makes him say

no, mother was...... smiling.

from this i take it it was planned by Yui to be taken into 01.
But then what about Naoko, Gendo and Fuytski? did they know about this plan??

ATh


Access
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(4/30/00 11:28:40 pm)
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Well Gendo certainly kew about it, and Fugitsu was talking with Yui under the tree about it. And it was Yui's idea.

Naoko, well I am unceratin if she knew. She speaks nothing of it, when she narrates evangelion for that brief episode. Also when she speaks about the information collected 10 years ago on the 400% sinc ratio trying to get Shinji out of the EVA insuinates that also before they tried to get a soul out of EVA. Hence they were trying to get Yui's soul out of unit-01. But Gendo, knew that it wouldnt work because she didnt want to return, because it was all planned. Naoko tried to get Yui out, so she mighten of known about her soul in Unit-01.
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fasad
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(5/1/00 2:23:23 am)
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...i think shinji only truely loves kaoru, cause he doesn't "hide", and shinji feels kaoru is the only one who understands him (empathy!!). its because shinji doesn't realise that the others have the same experiences and troubles, because they "hide" them. he doesn't realise he does the same to an even greater extent.

he feels strongly for misato, more in a big sister way than mother. he feels a strange attraction to rei, cause she reminds him of his lost mother. he is definately attracted physically to asuka, and later to her personality, maybey because she seems strong to him. but i don't really think these qualify as "love" - he certainly doesn't realise how much he feels for them. (until shadow angel snyway)

as for the other way around, i think misato loved him as a child, he needs her. rei shares the feelings she has for gendo to shinji (gendo's face flashes up with shinji's in ep8 and 22 ?). i don't think this is love at all, its part of yui's feelings. and asuka definately feels for him. she is too "strong/hard" for most people and is attracted to his "weakness". he is the only one she doesn't have to prove herself to.


3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/1/00 1:11:37 pm)
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Is probably not a conspiracy by Gendou. Yui's loss was an accident, and the idea that Gendou premeditated the accident, is also unlikely.
First of all, not all people who impregnate their souls into the Evas are lost. Although Kyouko lost her soul to Unit 02, and Yui was consumed wholy by Unit 01, Naoko did emerge unscathed from the soul impregnation(S.I.) to Unit 00.
Building upon this, from the perspective of the reseachers at Gehirn at 2004, when Yui was lost, they might not even known that a person can be taken in by the Eva. Possibility a) Unit 00's S.I. experiment had already been conducted successfully, and the possibility of being taken in was unknown to the researchers. Possibility b) Unit 00's S.I. experiment had not yet been conducted, thus the possibility of being taken in was not yet known either. With Project E being in its experiemtnal stages, how could have Gendou known about this? Either way, Yui's case was the first, in which anybody had been taken in. Thus, premeditation of her being taken in by Unit 01 is unlikely.
Further, like Cap'n mentions, Gendou takes on a whole new personality after the experiment. Part of, or a consequence of, this change is the undertaking of the Instrumentality Project, through which he intends to find his lost wife. Why would he go through this change in personality, if he planned the murder of his wife? Why would he start the Instrumentality Project, if he purposely made his wife disappear?
The idea that Yui's loss was premeditated by Gendou just doesn't add up.


h0micide
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(5/3/00 10:20:29 pm)
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i think shinji is one messed up kid and mistato kissing him probly sent him crazy evan more

the poor kid now has to spend his life with asuka.
i dont blame him trying to chock her

i like asuka but she is a bitch to shinji


Exarch
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(5/4/00 3:35:42 pm)
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Naoko did not excape,
she went on to kill herself
just like Auska's mom.

Just having Rei insult a normal person would not be enought to push them over the edge.





A T h 401
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(5/4/00 10:48:22 pm)
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Recently ive been doing some Freudian stuff, so ive been in contact with various of his theories, which is proving to be interesting. Especially when i think about Evangelion. Freud of course speaks of that core of anxiety which all humans have and how people seek to eleviate this anxiety through their relationships with others. (not that im saying Freud is 100% right, though he certainly did have an intrging perspective on life)

ATh
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