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Old 02-08-2001, 08:57 PM   #1   [permalink]
Maccy99
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Question about instrumentality

OK, I was reading some threads on instrumentality in the index. And I have a question(hence the title.) If instrumentality is the merging of all human minds using the anti-AT field, why is it that individuals are showcased in the last 2 episodes. If we all unite into one being, what do individual problems have to do with anything. Individual thoughts should have nothing to do with the greater being and all individual problems that people had before instrumentality should be automatically solved by the greater being.

Or are the last few episodes the PROCESS of instrumentality. And the process of the greater being solving these problems.

Can somone help me out on this? And if you think it's a stupid question please take into consideration that this is my first sojourn into the Eva discussion forum.
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Old 02-08-2001, 11:55 PM   #2   [permalink]
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I've always believed that the last two episodes are the process of instrumentality... As for why their individual struggles are being shown, I haven't heard or read much about that yet...
So far, my opinion is that each person was having to choose whether or not they would become part of instrumentality. This would also tie in with EoE, where Shinji is making a decision about whether he'll choose or reject instrumentality.
Either that, or maybe they each had to overcome their problems individually before they could participate further in the instrumentality process...
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Old 03-08-2001, 12:01 AM   #3   [permalink]
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But if they're mind shield(AT field) that protects their individuality goes down, would htey have a choice. I'm asking you guys because you know way more about the secrets of Eva than I do.
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Old 03-08-2001, 01:11 PM   #4   [permalink]
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The sheild goes down unless they reject instrumentality...

I think...
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Old 03-08-2001, 07:06 PM   #5   [permalink]
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Cool

Here's my theory with Instrumentality and the AT Fields. In EoE, Everyone looses their AT Field and reverts to the most primitive form of life, LCL or the Blood of the Mother, Lillith. Now Shinji does loose his form. They just dont show it, when he's talking to Rei or in flashbacks or talking with Yui, thats in his LCL state. But at the end he chooses to live. Just like it says, a person can regain their form if they have the will to live. Shinji regains his will to live, and gains back his body. I dont know anything about Asuka seeing how she's not covered much in 26', all I know is that she's there and she is bandaged up.
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Old 03-08-2001, 10:44 PM   #6   [permalink]
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Quote:
OK, I was reading some threads on instrumentality in the index. And I have a question(hence the title.) If instrumentality is the merging of all human minds using the anti-AT field, why is it that individuals are showcased in the last 2 episodes. If we all unite into one being, what do individual problems have to do with anything. Individual thoughts should have nothing to do with the greater being and all individual problems that people had before instrumentality should be automatically solved by the greater being.

Or are the last few episodes the PROCESS of instrumentality. And the process of the greater being solving these problems.

Can somone help me out on this? And if you think it's a stupid question please take into consideration that this is my first sojourn into the Eva discussion forum.
"The complementation
by the Instrumentality of Man
begins."

"complementation" or "completeness" is the goal. Instrumentality is the process.

Instrumentality is what it sounds like, using humankind as the "instrument" to "complete" one being. Everything is being merged into one (shinji), and that's where the interaction happens.

If the process is finished, Shinji would become "complete". His existence is everywhere and is everthing. He is basically God and is completely free in this world. It is closely related to nothingness because there is nothing in this world except him. Everything becomes "nothingness" and he becomes "everythingness".

But in this world he feels that he exists nowhere by existing everywhere because he can't figure out his shape. He understands that the physical world with other people doesn't have to be bad if he chooses to accept himself rather than hate himself. And so he rejects complementation.

So basically we saw the process of instrumentality where minds are directly interacting through being merged into one, but didn't see the goal of complementation since Shinji rejected it.
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Old 03-08-2001, 11:33 PM   #7   [permalink]
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Now that I get that I'm going to watch the last episodes over again. Maybe they'll be better since I know what's going on.
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Old 04-08-2001, 02:04 AM   #8   [permalink]
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I'd make your own theories on it.

There are plenty of them.

There is my theory, which is that Completion of the Instrumentality project would combine all of humans into one perfect being where the original Sin was destroyed, thus making Mankind free of Adam and Eve's sin and we would be perfect. Suffering would come to an end.

Suffering is what Shinji and many of the other char. go through in the series, and Shinji is given the opportunity to destroy the AT field. Among other things, destroying the AT field will also destroy The Hedgehogs dilemma, because now everyone would be connected without a barrier. These are things Shinji wants, but to destroy the At field would be to destroy Human individuality.

After shinji excepts himself, his life, and the meaning of his existence, he reflects back on the "I musn't run away" thing and decides that sacrificing individuality to solve your problems is the ultimate form of running away, and therefore, he rejects it.

I believe that despite their differences, EOE and the TV ending both follow this path to some degree.

There is the other theory that all of Evangelion was a dream in which Shinji made up a fantasy world in which he was someone important, during which, he was eventually forced to come to terms with himself, and in the end, returned to the real world ( the weird alternate world in Eps 26)

People who follow that theory believe that it pertains to the TV series, and that EOE is nothing more than the end of the world as we know it.

Then there is the "becoming God" theory already explained to you.

You may pick an already excepted theory, or make one of your own, I believe thats the best way to watch Evangelion and walk away with some understanding.
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Old 04-08-2001, 05:19 AM   #9   [permalink]
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You are viewing complmenentation in the wrong context. You talk as if there are seperate entities after everyone becomes one. I thought so at first before I realised this cannot be the case.

Quote:
Suffering is what Shinji and many of the other char. go through in the series, and Shinji is given the opportunity to destroy the AT field. Among other things, destroying the AT field will also destroy The Hedgehogs dilemma, because now everyone would be connected without a barrier.
What connections? Where's this "everyone" you speak of? Becoming one means one. There are no other entities except for "the one" who is Shinji.

Ryouji: This is what you wanted.
Asuka: Destruction, Death, the return to nothingness, All of these did you wish for.

Misato: This is reality.

Shinji: What's reality?

Rei: Your world.

Makoto: With time, with space, with other people, a world of your own.

Shigeru: The world where how to accept things and how to perceive things is absolutely up to you.

Maya: It's your world, only given to you now,
That is reality.

Misato: Your world, which nobody else can deal with.
Quote:
These are things Shinji wants, but to destroy the At field would be to destroy Human individuality.
It would destroy everyone else's individuality except for Shinji's.
Quote:
After shinji excepts himself, his life, and the meaning of his existence, he reflects back on the "I musn't run away" thing and decides that sacrificing individuality to solve your problems is the ultimate form of running away, and therefore, he rejects it.
It's not the running away itself which is he finds bad, its the result of running away. He finds out that he still can't understand himself, even if he ran away by turning the objective reality into his subjective reality. He feels uneasy and still can't understand himself if he exists everywhere because he can't see his shape without others.

EoE
Shinji: Ayanami... where are we?
Rei: This is the sea of LCL... The primordial soup of life. A world without AT Fields... without your own shape. An ambiguous world where it is impossible to tell where you end and other people start.
A fragile world where you exist everywhere, and thus exist nowhere.
Shinji: Have I died?
Rei: No, everything has just been joined into one. This is the world you have been hoping for... your world.

Ep 26
Ritsuko: Since this is your own world.
Misato: The real form that you conceive. That is reality.
Shinji: This is the world of nothing, space with nothing,
the world of nothing.
The world with nothing but me.
I am understanding myself less.
I feel as if I'm going to disappear.
My existence is fading away. Why?
Misato: Because there's nobody but you.
Shinji: Nobody but me?

Quote:
There is the other theory that all of Evangelion was a dream in which Shinji made up a fantasy world in which he was someone important, during which, he was eventually forced to come to terms with himself, and in the end, returned to the real world ( the weird alternate world in Eps 26)
Shinji: I've got it. This is also a world.
The possibility within me.
The me at the moment is not always the me as I am.
There are many of myself.
Yes. There must be a me who is not an Eva pilot.
Misato: Considering that, the real world itself is not always bad.

It's highly unlikely that "alternate" world is the objective world. It's only a mind opening possibility that Shinji sees and reflects on. From that Shinji understands that there is no "fixed" him, he is in a large sense what he chooses to be.

Quote:
Then there is the "becoming God" theory already explained to you.
Which of course we know is correct.
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Old 04-08-2001, 04:05 PM   #10   [permalink]
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As i said, there are many ways to view and interpret the TV series and EOE.

I.E. nothing you said above, as good as it was said, changes my mind on the theory.

Anyway, What I'm saying is that in the TV series, everyone was going through a process in which they were individuals for a few moments. The instrumentality part of it. I'm not talking about the end result.

The "connection" I spoke of is something similar to the "great link" that the Founders in Star Trek have. Where all individuals meld into a single being. You retain no aspect of individuality because you are nothing but a part of numerous linked minds (The borg may even be a better example of this). There are no individuals in the Borg culture, but there are still linked minds.

IOW, Individuality would be destroyed, but the linked minds still applies.

You see, I don't believe that the dialogue you pointed out to me really means that Shinji alone is the one instrumental part of the process, the one who is going to become God. I believe the dialogue directed towards him isn't said because he will become the only individual, I believe that every human on Earth was going through the same process, but we only see Shinji's. In each of these scenarios, each individual is talked to in the same way because they are trying to get them into accepting Instrumentality.

This just happens to be the way they want to persuade Shinji into accepting it.

I mean, it was pointed out IIRC that Instrumentality was meant to effect all of mankind, not just one person. Even Gendo did not wish to become a God, he only wanted to reunite with his beloved wife.
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Old 04-08-2001, 10:19 PM   #11   [permalink]
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My theory (Along with pretty much everyone else's) is that in the last tape shinji was going through "Apotheosis" ( I think that's the word). Which, if I'm correct, is the process of becoming Divine. He rejects Instrumentality and comes to terms with his life, learns to love himself and others, and decides that: "My Life Is Worth Living Here!"
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Old 04-08-2001, 10:40 PM   #12   [permalink]
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Quote:
As i said, there are many ways to view and interpret the TV series and EOE.

I.E. nothing you said above, as good as it was said, changes my mind on the theory.
You can interpret it however you like, but it doesn't mean its right unless you can show evidence.
[/QUOTE]Anyway, What I'm saying is that in the TV series, everyone was going through a process in which they were individuals for a few moments. The instrumentality part of it. I'm not talking about the end result.[/QUOTE]
I agree that we saw the instrumentality process where the individual minds were communicating directly. What we disagree on is the end result of complementation.
Quote:
The "connection" I spoke of is something similar to the "great link" that the Founders in Star Trek have. Where all individuals meld into a single being. You retain no aspect of individuality because you are nothing but a part of numerous linked minds (The borg may even be a better example of this). There are no individuals in the Borg culture, but there are still linked minds.

IOW, Individuality would be destroyed, but the linked minds still applies.
Linked minds, become nothingness, died it doesn't matter because they have become passive, the only active thing is the whole which is Shinji. There are too many refrences to dreams, "your world" and freedom to say Shinji would becoming a mindless being.

Shinji: What? The world of nothing. The world with nobody.
Shinji: The world of freedom.
Shinji: Freedom?
Shinji: The world of freedom which will never be restrained by
anybody.
Shinji: Is this Freedom?
Shinji: Yes. The world of freedom.
Rei: As a result, there's nothing.
Shinji: Unless I think.
Misato: Yes, unless you think.

EoE
Shinji (voice): Hey...
Misato (voice): What?
Shinji (voice): What are dreams?
Misato (voice): Dreams?
Rei: Yes, dreams.
(Packed theater)
(Screen text:- Do you feel good?) (Three girls standing still in crowd)
Shinji (voice): I don't understand... I don't really understand reality.
Rei (voice): So, you can't understand the gap between other's reality and your own
truth.
Shinji (voice): I don't know where to find happiness.
Rei (voice): So, you can only find happiness in your dreams.
(Crowded street- camera focuses on three individuals; dressed as Misato,
Rei, and Asuka)
Shinji (voice): Then, this isn't reality... Because no one is here.
Rei (voice): Yes, it's a dream.
Shinji (voice): So, I'm not here either.
Rei (voice): You were trying to remake reality with convenient fantasies.
Shinji (voice): Is that wrong?
Rei (voice): You were using fabrications to escape from reality.
Shinji (voice): Can't I dream alone?
Rei (voice): That would not be a dream.- It would just be compensating for
reality.
--
Rei: No, everything has just been joined into one. This is the world you have been hoping for... your world.
Quote:
You see, I don't believe that the dialogue you pointed out to me really means that Shinji alone is the one instrumental part of the process, the one who is going to become God. I believe the dialogue directed towards him isn't said because he will become the only individual, I believe that every human on Earth was going through the same process, but we only see Shinji's.
Just to make sure, when I say God, I don't mean God in the christian sense. I mean God as in his consciousness is everywhere and everything so everything is his world. What I am saying is that this heaven where Shinji can protect himself what he is suppose to want. This is clearly what complemenation would do. The choice is up to him.

Shinji: What's this?
Misato: This is the Instrumentality of Man project that your
father has been working on.

Shinji: This is?

Misato: It's part of them, I think.

Asuka: The truth is still unknown to us.

Ritsuko: The things you perceive are the truth.

Rei: Things within you.

Fuyutsuki: And the things recorded in your memory will be your truth.

Ritsuko: There is a truth that changes through the time.

Shinji: This is the truth.
The result of everything, is this?

Asuka: Out of many truths, this is one.

Misato: That's the result you wanted. Shinji: I wanted?

Asuka: Destruction, Death, the return to nothingness,
All of these did you wish for.

Misato: This is reality.

Shinji: What's reality?

Rei: Your world.

Makoto: With time, with space, with other people, a world of
your own.

Shigeru: The world where how to accept things and how to
perceive things is absolutely up to you.

Maya: It's your world, only given to you now, That is reality.

Misato: Your world, which nobody else can deal with.

Shinji: It's the world where everything is already created,
isn't it?

Ritsuko: No, it's the world that you are creating.

Fuyutsuki: The world that you are trying to create. That is reality.

Misato: The will to live.

Asuka: The mind that wishes to die, which you yourself want.

Shinji: This darkness, this incomplete world...
Are you saying, I wished for all of these?

Asuka: Yes.

Ryouji: The closed world where nobody but you are confortable.
That is the very world you wished for.

Makoto: To protect your weak mind.

Shigeru: To protect your joy.

Maya: This is the result.

Misato: In a closed space with nobody but you in it,
Nobody can live.

Asuka: But you wanted this world, a closed world for yourself.

Ritsuko: Excluding what you hate, you wanted a world of solitude.
A mind all your own.

Rei: This is your world delivered, with a small haven in your
mind.

Asuka: This is one of the conclusions.

Misato: The end of the world that you have lived in.

And the way to the complementation, will be continued.

Quote:
In each of these scenarios, each individual is talked to in the same way because they are trying to get them into accepting Instrumentality.
They have no choice. Everything is up to Shinji as shown in EoE and the previous part of the script.

Quote:
I mean, it was pointed out IIRC that Instrumentality was meant to effect all of mankind, not just one person.
The process of instrumentality effects mankind by turning them into nothing, so one being can become everything and complete, which is the goal.

"The complementation by the instrumentality of minds and soul begins. All things return to nothingness."

"03: For God, Man, and all living things are soon to become one through death."
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Old 04-08-2001, 11:57 PM   #13   [permalink]
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I agree with keel. I just watched the last two episodes again. And Gendo said that instrumentality wasn't the end, it was going back to the begining. And then I remember the episode where Shinji dissapeared in his Eva and they said he had reverted to the primordial soup and was one with his Eva.

And speaking of Eva. Doesn't a smaller version of instrumentality take place when the Eva pilots synch with the Eva's, or the soul that is in the Eva's.

And about which theory is right, I remember something kaji said in the last episode about how people are so eager to search for deeper truths that they miss the real truth because it's simple. I think this was Anno's way of dropping the hint that the simplest answer is the right one. And the simplest answer is the one they spoonfeed you in the last episode. That Shinji is creating his own world and it can be however he wants. I still haven't figured out what his "perspectives on life" have to do with it though.
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Old 05-08-2001, 03:09 AM   #14   [permalink]
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RE:I agree that we saw the instrumentality process where the individual minds were communicating directly. What we disagree on is the end result of complementation.

That is true, though I believe we still have some confusion here.

I believe that when Instrumentality is *completed* that individuality is destroyed. What I don't agree on is that Shinji's individuality is left. I believe that he would lose his individuality as well.

It is the price of becoming perfect. The price of avoiding the Original Sin and Human suffering. Gendo himself said that it was a way of cleansing the original sin, and he told Gendo that what he wanted to do was "Create a new Genesis for Mankind."

I don't believe that the "Return to the beginning" means the return to nothingness as it is literraly put, but rather than it means that Humanity will have a new Genesis, a new beginning, thereby making us perfect.

I believe that Shinji was given the choice to give up his individuality in exchange for this, but in the end chose that he could live with himself as he is, and rejected instrumentality. Every human I believe, went through this, but Shinji's decision may have been influential on other people's decisions.

This is where the theory comes in that, at the end of EOE, Shinji and Asuka are the only ones *seen* on Earth, but that more people are returning, having made their decision.

This IS an actual theory. I mean, I'm sure you have yours set in its place, and I have mine, and there are about 9 others that have been created. I know several people who STRICTLY stick to the "The whole series was a dream until the end" theory.

Then again, being Open-Minded isn't about attempting to change other people's beliefs, its about being able to listen and understand other people's beliefs without it effecting your beliefs, or envoking you to try to change theirs. Therefore, I don't like to try to dispute someone elses theory, which is why I have said nothing to disprove yours. It *doesn't* NEED to be disproven, and niether does mine. All I seek is exceptance of my theory. What you personally believe is up to you.
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