fasad
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 10:37:57 am)
203.23.145.163
Reply | Edit | Del All children
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ok, a couple of questions.... ("inspired" by eva2000's post about the new eva info
why do you think the pilots for the evas are all born after the second impact? is it because people born after this date are some-how different?
and why are they called children (plural) ? 3foolishmen, is there some subtle meaning from the japanese that doesn't translate?
also, what makes you think unit 02 has asuka's mother's soul in it??
Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 11:03:07 am)
216.209.145.115
Reply | Edit | Del Eva-02 = Asuka's mom!
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I'm not going to get into that whole thing about mother's souls in Evas and stuff right now. It is elsewhere on this board if you look for it. Also, children is just used because it sounds cool as far as I know. 3foolishmen, put your trilingualness to good use and help us out here. Also we know that Askua's mom is in Unit-02 cuz in Evangelion Rebirth she finds her mother again. She realizes that her mother has been with her in the Eva the whole time. This gets her her sync ratio back just in time to open up a can of whoop ass on the JSSDF
3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 12:20:59 pm)
168.122.7.78
Reply | Edit | Del Re: children
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"why do you think the pilots for the evas are all born after the second impact? is it because people born after this date are some-how different?"
My guess is yes. There's little information in the series about this topic, but since all of the children were born after the 2nd Impact, I suppose that it was some sort of threshold. So they were pilots because they were born after the 2nd Impact rather than vice versa. Still, there are personal 'aptitudes', considering Shinji seems to be blessed(or cursed) as a pilot.
"why are they called children (plural) ?"
It's actually got nothing to do with translation, the term appears as is in the non-dubbed/subbed Japanese version.
The Japanese people are usually terrible with English. Grammar mistakes, spelling errors, 3 word vocabularies(yes, no & thank you), aweful pronunciation, name it, and they've got it.
On the contrary, one thing that impressed me about the series is that the level of mastery of the English seen in the series was quite superb(umbilical cable? surely no Japanese guy would be able to think of that off the top of his head). It seems unlikely that Gainax would allow such an elementary error.
Consider the case of the first "child", Rei. She was "plural", right? I guess the researchers at Gehirn referred to her as the first "children", and the use of that term stuck.
"what makes you think unit 02 has asuka's mother's soul in it??"
What Cap'n says. There's little material about this issue in the series to work with, although I think that Asuka's mother's mental condition was a hint, ie, she lost her 'soul' to Unit 02 when an activation/synch test went awry.
Access
NERV-Technician
(5/12/00 2:25:11 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: children
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Their is no argueing that Auska's mum is uin Unit-02. It is stated "Now I understand, my mother is watching over me, protecting me etc..."
And I am un sure what makes them need to be born after 2nd Impact, but that would seem to be the cause. But it is understanding that they wernt all born 9 months after 2nd impact, they were born at varies stages AFTER 2nd impact.
Access
Atomic
NERV-Technician
(5/12/00 4:54:47 pm)
139.130.76.169
Reply | Edit | Del ???
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it has somwg to do with the evas and the children being SPECIAL, which people have already stated
don't mind me i'm just bored
Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/12/00 9:36:01 pm)
206.172.239.19
Reply | Edit | Del After the impact
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well the answer is simple. After the second impact that was when thier mother's died and the Eva's were built with thier mother's soul's in the Eva's. it must have something to do with that fact but It maybe just was when the Eva's were all built.
Access
NERV-Technician
(5/12/00 9:48:39 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: After the impact
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Auska's mum died when she was 8, AFTER 2nd impact.... same with Shinji's mum.....
Access
fasad
EVA-Pilot
(5/13/00 1:18:24 am)
203.23.145.164
Reply | Edit | Del Re: children
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in ep 23 (maybey 22), when ritsuko destroys the rei clones, and is giving her speach (its very hard to understand with the music being a tad too loud), she says the "room of gaf" is empty. from what i've read, this is a place in heaven where souls are kept for new babies. does this mean they have no "heavenly souls"? also, in anno's rainy day intro, he says the world of eva has fewer and fewer children each year. any more ideas?
so the use of children could be just a bit of engrish? ha! but your idea about rei(s) is a good explaination. when they refer to them in japanese, do they use plural, or is it just the english on the computer displays?
3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/13/00 4:47:45 am)
168.122.12.233
Reply | Edit | Del Re: children
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Fasad: "when they refer to them in japanese,"
They literally say, "chee-rue-doe-ren". Nouns don't have a plural form in Japanese.
I think discussion about the Room of Guaf(Gaf? no clue) deserves its own thread. From what I understand, the term comes from esoteric Judaism, and it houses the souls of children yet to be born. Hopefully, ATh will better inform us.
Access
NERV-Technician
(5/13/00 1:28:10 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: children
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Now the Room of Guf( or Guaf according to the RCB)is where all souls come from according to Jewdaism, when a person is born a soul is entered into their body from the Room of Guf. It is said their are seven signs of the appocylpse, eg, dead rise from the grave, rivers turn to blood, and the final one is that the Room of Guf is empty, thus no new life can be created.
But when Ritsuko said it she was refering to that Rei had a fabricated soul. She was the only being EVER to just create its own soul, while everyone gets theirs from the Guf.
Hope that helped.
Access
A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/13/00 11:39:48 pm)
203.21.47.3
Reply | Edit | Del Re: children
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Maybe not as enlightening as you hope
all i can find is
Gaph--- Gimel Pe 803 or 83
1 Back, top
2 Body, person
or
Person, self, (Ch) wing (Ch means Chaldee)
I find it odd now that my sources did not see this to be important enough to make note of it.
(i could always ask around if it is imporatant)
Personally i thougt Ritsuku was saying
The room of God is empty
(which is a significant statement as it is meant to be a truth) but reading the script you are right. Though the scripy i have asks an new question
Ritsuko: Yes, that's a human.
Eva, which did not have a soul ab initio,
now that has a human soul.
All of these are salvaged.
However the vessel which truly contains a soul is Rei.
Only she has a soul.
None of the other vessels have a soul.
There was nothing within the room of Gaff.
These Rei-like things here do not have a soul.
Nothing but vessels.
So I will destroy them, because I hate them.
Obviously they (gendo ect) did not get Rei's soul from the room of Gaff as it was empty, so where did Rei get her soul?
You all know my answer-- Lilith!!!
hahaha
ATh
fasad
EVA-Pilot
(5/14/00 4:43:10 pm)
203.23.145.163
Reply | Edit | Del Re: children
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i'd have to say lilith as well, if she has a soul at all that is. but what about the other children? if the room of gaf was emptied (?) at or by the second impact, where do they get their souls from??
Access
NERV-Technician
(5/14/00 7:34:47 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: children
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Well I have a movie I suggest you watch.. 'The Seventh Sign' starring Demi Moore. It speaks of the room of Guf.
About Lillith soul being in Rei, or vice versa... well I have read that arguement it was before my time here, so my oppion is no.. Lillith soul is in Lillith just like everybodys souls is in everybody else.
Thats scene that you descibe, is shown in D:R and differnt words accompany that scene. I guess porbably because of traslation. But I never understood what she ment, in the series, but it is said alot clearer in D:R. I will find an exact quote when I find D:R its floating around somewhere around me... somewhere under a ton of paper, books and other vids. I remmeber Ritsukop saying "Rei is the only person who created her soul". But I will (hopefully) get a proper quote.
Access
3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/15/00 10:20:57 am)
168.122.13.79
Reply | Edit | Del Re: children
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Access: "[Rei] was the only being EVER to just create its own soul, while everyone gets theirs from the Guf."
ATh: "Obviously they (gendo ect) did not get Rei's soul from the room of Gaff as it was empty, so where did Rei get her soul?"
I took Ritsuko's passage, especially "Only she has a soul", to mean that only Rei I, II and III successively got a soul from the room of Gaph, and the other spare clones were soulless vessels.
In other words, there can only be one soul per soul. ReiSoul can probably be transferred from ReiBody to Reibody, but only one ReiBody can contain a ReiSoul at any given time.
I've come up with two feasible possibilities: a) ReiI, II and III are the same souls, or b)ReiI, II and III are separate souls.
ReiIII did not know/remember memories of ReiII(I assume the same for ReiI&II): "No, I don't know. I'm probably the third." In the case of a), it could be that memories of the past have been "sealed" once ReiSoul returned from the room of Gaph. There's a piece of info that I found, that says a soul in the RoG(which is also in the heavens) knows past, present and future, and the angel that accompanies the soul from the RoG to the body seals this knowledge as the child is born. Can anybody confirm this?
In the case of b), I,II and III's souls are individual. Therefore they have no knowledge of and share no memories of each other.
Either way, I think Rei's soul is Rei's soul, individual or continuous, like Access says.
Fasad: The other children(Shinji, Asuka, Touji, Kensuke, Hikaru) were not cloned. They probably all had fathers and mothers who bore them(although Kensuke is an orphan, Touji's mother's identity is never clarified, and the same for Hikaru.) Only in the cases of the spare Rei's was the RoG was empty. I suppose children who were conceived 'normally' got their souls 'normally' from the RoG.
Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/15/00 11:51:48 am)
206.172.239.92
Reply | Edit | Del I got it!!!!(I think)
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Well first of all yesterday I was watching my english copy of Genesis 0:12 at my friend's house and he has a kick ass sterio system with surround sound and all and I heard that scene pretty well and I could of sworn that she said rule of God is empy or room of God but I'm pretty sure that it was God. However I did mishear phone as bullet so I'm not sure. I've gotta stop listening to my music so loud. Oh well, back on to the topic. We all know that the reason that these children can pilot is because their mother's souls are in the Evas. Maybe the syncronization thing is simply coincidence. Open your mind and take in this theoy for a sec okay. Maybe their dead mothers are just reincarnated into the Eva's. Forget about this room of Gaf thing for a sec and adopt the possiblility of reincarnation. Since Eva's are technically human they have to get their souls from somewhere and maybe their mothers were just reincarnated into the Eva's. Now we know that Unit-01 is different being based off Lilith's DNA(but still with the body of ADA) and that Yui was in fact absorbed into it thus making Unit-01 the only Eva with such a strong level of self awareness. Rei and kaworu are exceptions however because they are at least part angel and can control the Eva's because they consist of the same matter.
It is confirmed that Auska's mother is in Eva-02 and assumed that Touji's mother is in Eva-03(that must suck having your mother die twice). So what if their mothers were just reincarnated into the Evas. Hey, If I could choose one body to be reincarnated into it would be an Eva no doubt. That'd be helluva cool!
Covax
NERV-Technician
(5/15/00 1:43:26 pm)
142.194.242.127
Reply | Edit | Del I got it?
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3foolishmen said:
"it could be that memories of the past have been "sealed" once ReiSoul returned from the room of Gaph."
Uhm.. just to add my 2 cents.. but I would think the room of Gaph/Guaf/Gaff is just the name of the room with the clone tanks...
"Room of Guaf" being empty meaning that none of the Rei-clones had souls... I mean, what else are you gonna call a room where you make children in a tube?
3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/15/00 3:07:33 pm)
168.122.13.79
Reply | Edit | Del Re: I got it!!!!(I think)
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ATh & Cap'n: In Japanese, Ritsuko says, "Ga-foo no Hey-yeah". I doubt this would translate to anything except the Room of Gaph(whatever spelling). Rest assured, in the original, she says the Room of G. For those who have seen it, there are also some references to the RoG in the very beginning of D:R, when cuts from the Katsuragi expedition at Antarctica right before the 2nd I. are shown. Some member says, "The RoG is going to open!" or something to the same effect.(Covax, it seems like there was a RoG before the 2nd I., or it was somehow involved in the 2nd I. Rei wasn't cloned yet.)
Cap'n: "Maybe the syncronization thing is simply coincidence."
Could very well be, although I don't think you have to forget about the RoG to maintain consistency in the reincarnation theory(as I understand, the RoG as it appears in NGE is symbolic rather than literal). If the Gehirn technicians had the technology to attach a soul to an articial clone(Rei and/or Eva), and then revive a/the soul in ReiII, then it would seem likely that they possessed the means to attach a soul to Units 00 and 02.
Cap'n: "Maybe their dead mothers are just reincarnated into the Eva's."
RoG is the gateway for reincarnation? It seems to me that souls need some sort of pathway to be transfered. For ex, when Shinji went 400%, he travelled(?) from the entry plug to the LCL, somehow(?) into Unit 01, and finally to Unit 01's core, from which he was spat out(Incidentally, during this time, Unit 01 harbored 2 souls).
Access
NERV-Technician
(5/15/00 4:47:09 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: children
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No here is the proper quote drom D:R.
Ritsuko: "EVA doesnt originally have a soul but they were given a human soul. All were salvaged. Rei is the only one with a soul, she is the only one that grew a soul. The Guff room was empty."
So I interpret that as being Rei was the only person to get her soul, while everyone else got theirs from the Room of guf. (except the EVA's who got "salvaged" souls.)
And no I dont believe that the tank is the room of Guf here is the quote from the RCB;
"Gauf's Room
According to religious beliefs, when a new baby is born on planet Earth, he or she gets the soul from the Room of Gauf in heaven. However, during the course of the Evangelion series, Ritsuko points out that there are no souls left in the Room of Gauf it is empty. Now, remember the fact that fewer and fewer children are born after the Second Impact. Well this is explained as there are no more souls to spare except for the salvaged souls in the Room of Gauf.
He said that the opening of Gauf's Room has the same meaning as the start of the world as well as the opening of the door of the finale. When this door is open, and no soles are left the surface of the Earth turns to LCL, human can no longer keep intact their physical forms as individuals but return to LCL form."
I believe this is not accurate but proves that the Room of Guf is used in EVA, and that it is more than just the tank the clones were floating in.
Access
A T h 401
EVA-Pilot
(5/15/00 11:39:45 pm)
203.21.47.3
Reply | Edit | Del Re: children
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Well Access you said most of what i was going to say but with more info included.
This RoG is important (i think) and it also answers one question which has been floating around the MB Why children born after 2nd impact are the only ones who can become pilets.
Yes fewer children been born, God's 'to do pile' is complete and the last few are processed, but those select children were concieved before 2nd impact? but born after.
I think the awakening of Adam is what opened (closed ) the RoG (if this did not happen the 'to do pile' would be infinte, but when this sign was given, it stopped production)
Rei growing a soul, hmmm 3f (i hope you dont mind the abbreviation) your account of the soul having its memories sealed is a common thought (sort of)
The apsects of reincarnation i have been taught go something like this
The Soul (equated with the Individality -Chesed, Geburah, Tiphareth) is the Higher Self, and exists through the aeons, But in order to learn it creates and projects and image of itself this is the self we know now ( and equates with the Personality- Netzach, Hod, Yesod- Malkuth as well)
now the Personality dies and fragments but its memories are not lost, they are kept by the Individuality. A new vessel is created and a new Personality as well. However some aspects of older Personalities may be used again at any given incarnation.
So to me Rei has one soul (Rei I, II, III is the same soul) but the personality differs. But in Rei's case she is always put back into the same vessel, so it is more of a rearrangement of the fragments than start from scratch.
What do you think?
ATh
Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/16/00 11:33:24 am)
206.172.239.152
Reply | Edit | Del reincarnation station
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I agree with A T H a bit there, There have been real life reports of people having some memories left over from their past lives. Rei would have more than usual cuz she is in basically the same body. Maybe her soul does not see her as dead for it just jumps into another body so some memories are left in the brain while others from the soul, parts of you which make you who you are would be carried on. smell what I'm cookin here or does it need further explanation?
Access
NERV-Technician
(5/17/00 3:34:05 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Same Soul
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I wasnt aware that their was any doubt that the same soul was past between the Rei clones....
Access
Capt Jake
EVA-Pilot
(5/18/00 11:08:23 am)
216.208.51.146
Reply | Edit | Del Hell yeah it's the Same Soul
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I think that you'd have to be a moron to doubt it.
3foolishmen
EVA-Pilot
(5/18/00 12:06:51 pm)
168.122.14.149
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Same Soul?
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Access: "I wasnt aware that their was any doubt that the same soul was past between the Rei clones...."
Cap'n: "I think that you'd have to be a moron to doubt it."
In that case, what are the grounds for your beliefs that it is in fact the same soul?
Or, how can it not be the same soul?
Covax
NERV-Technician
(5/18/00 2:18:44 pm)
142.194.242.117
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Same Soul?
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(not an argument, just points)
A- Soul could have been corrupted by the 16th angel (memories?)
B- "Little Rei" refered to a fake soul in H.I., were those seperate souls or just personalites? (ie doubt)
C- It's not impossible to imagine Geno just updating Rei's memories and pluging them into a new body, Rei didn't remember saving Shinji (or much else).
you can go through EVA without touching uppon the soul, but it's not as much fun.
***
It took me forever to come up with a decent theory as to the relastionship beteww mind and soul, I'll paraprase a line from some comic a read:
A Tool is the extention of the Hand
Hand is the extention of thr Brain
Brian is the extention of the Mind
Mind is the extention of the Soul
(and for the spiritual folk
Soul is the extention of God
Access
NERV-Technician
(5/18/00 4:49:31 pm)
203.21.78.66
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Same Soul?
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Their is lost of evidence in NG.... but I will find it another time... all I said though was I didnt know that anybody doubted it. I have never come across the concept that Rei has a different soul. Well as I said in my quote from D:R Rei 'created' her own soul. And well if the each Rei had a difference soul where did it come from. Did each one created their own... of course I would except that to... but I still say the same soul was shared between each Rei after the previous one died.. of course during the transfer their would be slight persoanlity changes. But truthfully I cant seem to rememeber any differences that come to mind. I mean in EVA-R she developed a complete NEW persoanlity.. and thats all that keeps coming to my mind... so what were the changes in her personality when the Next Rei appeared.
Access
fasad
EVA-Pilot
(5/18/00 11:10:40 pm)
203.23.145.164
Reply | Edit | Del Re: children
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a bit on rei...
in the ep 24 of the tv show, she does do so rather unnatural things. she is the one who creates an at field so that shinji can kill kaouru. i think that rei-3 realises what she really is in this episode. she thought something like "in what way am he (kaouru) and i alike?". i say that all three, being the same person have the same soul. just only the 3rd one realised who she was. the differences in personality are also because of different memories.
also on the use of children, it might just be because this word is more japanese friendly to say, ending in and "n" rather than the "ld" of child ??
