purpose of instrumentality?

[fireguy]

Was the true purpose of instrumentality to serve the good of all mankind or was it something to fulfill the selfish desires of a select few who tried to control the proceedings from the background?

My opinion is that it was motivated by the selfish desires of individual men who wanted something for themselves and decided to neglect the wishes and desires of the rest of the world in which it would effect. In regards to Gendou Ikari, I say that his selfish desire had to do with his reunification with Yui, who he had lost in a synchronisation experiment with unit-01 and in regards to Lorenz Keel, he wished for himself to be returned to nothing, to finally greet death, something it seemed he had yearned for quite some time.

Anyway those are my opinions, forget what is said in the show and just write what instrumentality meant to you?

[Sheex, The Dark Stalker]

(IMO) It was basically a select number of people, mainly SEELE and Gendo deciding that humanity was unfit in its current state and felt that Instrumentality was the only way for the species to continue. Of course they managed to fool the military and such getting them to try and prevent a third impact when all they were doing were helping SEELE. I for one don't want Keel Lorenz and a dozen nameless, faceless men deciding my fate

[Robotech Master]

Yeah, the purpose is supposedly "good" and necessary for the survivial of Mankind, but only from the perspectives of SEELE. Gendo just wants to be reunited with his wife.

Basically, they want to destroy all AT fields, thus bringing all human souls together into one single highly evolved being. In this form, humanity will be perfect and human suffering will not exist, because all of the human souls have joined together and complemented eachother, filling in the loneliness (the gap) of the soul. However, individuality is lost during the process. Rather than ask the majority of humanity, SEELE and Gendo simply tried to lead humanity on this course. Fortunatly, when humanity was forced to decide, the instrumental decision was placed upon Shinji, not Gendo (I believe that each individual makes their own choice, but is forced to view the analysis of the one who starts Instrumentality and their decision will be based heavily on his decision. Gendo started it, but Rei turned it over to Shinji, so he had a strong influence on the outcome, but its still possible that some may return and others may remain joined.

[Foxxe]

I just thought that it was a dandy way to end the world as they knew it.

[EvaOtaku]

fireguy wrote:
In regards to Gendou Ikari, I say that his selfish desire had to do with his reunification with Yui, who he had lost in a synchronisation experiment with unit-01

Gendo certainly wanted to be reunited with Yui, but it is clear he did not want the sort of Human Complement Project that SEELE was trying to initiate. At every turn Gendo was there to hinder their wishes. In 'The End of Evangelion: AIR' the following dialogue transpires between Gendo and SEELE -

SEELE 05(?):
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death.

Gendo:
Death gives birth to nothing.

SEELE 01 (Keel):
Then death is what you shall have.

The 'The End of Evangelion' theatrical program (affectionately referred to as the Red Cross Book) offers this notation in its summary of Episode 25', Air -

SEELE immediately instructs Gendou and Fuyutsuki to complete the Project using Eva-01, but the two are reluctant to carry out a plan that will bring about the death of all people, and they rebut SEELE's wishes.

--------------------

So as you can see, Gendo may have wanted a version of HCP - but it is clear whatever he wanted did not involved the death of Humanity in order to be reborn in a single being.

and in regards to Lorenz Keel, he wished for himself to be returned to nothing, to finally greet death, something it seemed he had yearned for quite some time.

Hehehe... I hope this isn't in repsonse to the faulty idea Kihil is the "Wandering Jew"? ^_^;;;

forget what is said in the show and just write what instrumentality meant to you?

heh, I didn't do a good job of that did I? =P

-brendan
www.EvaOtaku.com

[dochuki]

Originally posted by EvaOtaku
Hehehe... I hope this isn't in repsonse to the faulty idea Kihil is the "Wandering Jew"? ^_^;;;
www.EvaOtaku.com [/B]

Is Keel not the wondering Jew? AGH!

[KEEL]

Foxxe is quite correct, it basically ends the world, collapsing it into the nothingness of consciousness.

The purpose of the instrumentality of mankind is complementation. This complementation is of consciousness, turning it into everything.

-----
Shinji: What feeling is this?
That I feel like I have experienced before.
My body seems like it's disappearing.
Agreeable.
I feel like I'm spreading, and becoming large,
to here, there and everywhere.


That was the very beginning
of the complementation of the people
by the instrumentality of man.
the thing people lost.

the lost minds.

complimenting the vacuum in the mind.

The complementation by the instrumentality of minds and soul begins. All things return to nothingness. The complementation by the instrumentality of man
has just begun.
------

Removing the AT Fields would turn everyone into one, effectively neutralising them and turning them into "nothingness" so that Shinji becomes everything. Shinji thus becomes God in the sense that his consciousness is everywhere. Everything becomes his own world.

---
Ryouji: This is what you wanted.

Asuka: Destruction, Death, the return to nothingness, All of these did you wish for.

Misato: This is reality.

Shinji: What's reality?

Rei: Your world.

Makoto: With time, with space, with other people, a world of your own.

Shigeru: The world where how to accept things and how to perceive things is absolutely up to you.

Maya: It's your world, only given to you now,
That is reality.

Misato: Your world, which nobody else can deal with.
---

Consciousness however is not something "in-itself". You can't just be conscious, you have to be cosncious of something. So consciousness is a nothingness in the sense that it only exists by being conscious of something else. Because in this world there is nothing except his consciousness, everything becomes "nothing", vague and undefined. There is only him and since he is completely free and exists everywhere, he can't figure out his own shape with nothing existing outside of him.

---
Shinji: The world of freedom.
Shinji: Freedom?
Shinji: The world of freedom which will never be restrained by anybody.
Shinji: Is this Freedom?
Shinji: Yes. The world of freedom.
Rei: As a result, there's nothing.
---

Shinji: Ayanami... where are we?
Rei: This is the sea of LCL... The primordial soup of life. A world without AT Fields... without your own shape. An ambiguous world where it is impossible to tell where you end and other people start.
A fragile world where you exist everywhere, and thus exist nowhere.
Shinji: Have I died?
Rei: No, everything has just been joined into one. This is the world you have been hoping for... your world.
---
Shinji: This is the world of nothing, space with nothing,
the world of nothing.
The world with nothing but me.
I am understanding myself less.
I feel as if I'm going to disappear.
My existence is fading away. Why?
Misato: Because there's nobody but you.
Shinji: Nobody but me?
----

[Dazman]

yeah, I think its made pretty clear that Instrumentality/Complementation is carried out without any regards as to the wants of the rest of mankind... personally I like my AT field and believe that being a perfect being would royally suck ass...

[AsukaLangleySohryu]

yah,they did not care about the rest of mankind,but the rest of the mankind can choose to reject,so there is no point asking....

[Sir_Viktor]

I'm a little confused on this whole "why Gendo wanted instrumentality" issue...
I'm probably wrong, but I always thought that Gendo and Yui had planned instrumentality all along... I thought it was the purpose of NERV. If Gendo wanted to be reunited with Yui so badly, then why did he allow her to be sucked into EVA-01 in the first place? If that was an accident, then why did he become content with it eventually? Why did they even start NERV if they weren't planning on instrumentality? I always thought that Gendo and Yui wanted instrumentality to occur so that they could be together for all eternity...

[AsukaLangleySohryu]

gendou and yui plan the instrumentality under the control of SEELE,but when yui die (got absorb),i dont tink he is content with that.
gendou grew wilder as he wanted yui back so much, he wanted to control it ,so he turns his back at those old man in the end...




this is just wat i tink

[EvaOtaku]

AsukaLangleySohryu wrote:
yah,they did not care about the rest of mankind,but the rest of the mankind can choose to reject,so there is no point asking....

But humans would not have had the choice if Shinji had not rejected Complementation. At the end of the film the question is not if people will accept HCP, but if they have the will to regain their human form.

==============================================

Sir_Viktor wrote:
I'm a little confused on this whole "why Gendo wanted instrumentality" issue...

Judging from Yui's dialogue with Fuyutsuki under the tree (in D&R, and also in Episode 21 Sp. Ed.) Yui was aware of SEELE's intentions for Complementation, and entered Eva-01 to put all cards in the hands of NERV. Gendo thereby sought to make sure SEELE was foiled; and in turn get Yui back.

Fuyutsuki:
The same weather day after day... The disappearance of autumn from this country is sad beyond words. According to the scenario in SEELE's Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Third Impact will definitely occur in a little over ten years.

Yui:
SEELE and Gehirn - organizations for preventing the final tragedy.

Fuyutsuki:
I support your intentions - Not SEELE's.

Yui:
Professor Fuyutsuki, it would be terribly dangerous to break that seal onto the world.

Fuyutsuki:
I've given all the materials to Ikari. It's not something one can do alone. (pause)
(cont'd)
We won't repeat what happened last time.
Oh, and I've also been given a warning -
It seems that it would be no trouble at all for them to erase me.

Yui:
And those who survived as well. It's easy to exterminate people.

Fuyutsuki:
Still, that's no reason for you to become a test subject.

Yui:
Everything happens as it must. That is why I am with SEELE - for Shinji's sake...

I'm probably wrong, but I always thought that Gendo and Yui had planned instrumentality all along...

I'd say it was a bit of both SEELE and Gendo. The dialogue between Yui and Fuyutsuki sort of conflicts with what Gendo says in Eps 21 (which itself conflicts with what we come to understand in later episodes - ie: that Second Impact was not an accident, that Gendo clearly disagrees with the means to Complementation - and so on and so forth.)

Ikari:
I know. Today, I'm starting a new project.
I've already made the proposal to Chairman Kihl.

Fuyutsuki:
You're going to do That?

Ikari:
Right.
The way to become a god, which no one has achieved.
The Human Instrumentality Project.


Which makes it sound as if Gendo was the one who thought up Complementation.

>I thought it was the purpose of NERV.

Hmm.. I dunno. NERV's official purpose was to get rid of the Angels. Even SEELE finds NERV's existence to be unnecessary once Kaworu is gone.

If that was an accident, then why did he become content with it eventually?

Well, it wasn't an accident...

Why did they even start NERV if they weren't planning on instrumentality?

Because the Angels needed to be eliminated before the Lilim could initiate their Complementation.

I always thought that Gendo and Yui wanted instrumentality to occur so that they could be together for all eternity...

Perhaps so - but not in the way SEELE wanted it. At least not at the cost of the death of every living being on Earth =P

-brendan
www.EvaOtaku.com

[Pengi_Ken-Ohki]

Actually Asuka, mankind could not reject, ONLY shinji could reject. everyone else would be filled with such a huge emptiness and have the solution staring them right in the face in their favourite form (rei's form if they don't have a favourite) so more or less.. impossible to reject. considering that at our own current level of lonliness we already go for wives and girlfriends (or vice versa), let alone a huge lonliness beyond comprehension.

Some people in this world see humans only as a sickly disease. I am not sure how to view us, it's true that we do far more harm than good, and as Kagato says in Tenchi Muyo: "Human feelings are but dust..". SEELE would simply be one of the groups of people who see humanity as filthy, flawed and unworthy of it's current status in life. Thus it is of course only for their reasons, as they clearly haven't consulted anyone else on the issue (u see this when the prime minister discovers what NERV was up to).

Terry Goodkind's book "Faith of the Fallen" mentions that sort of belief, of seeing humans as impossible of perfection and being just filthy dirty horrid creations of a perfect and flawless being.

[Kawanua the Samurai]

well really it was to find out how Mankind will live and ---- after 3rd impact or something

i don't remember seeming i couldn't record those episodes so im going by guessing mainly

[kosh2000]

I guess they can only choose to reject because Shinji was in control, if it was Gendo or Lorenz they probably wouldn't have a choice.