The Endless waltz Cheapness effect!

[Black_Knight]

Originally posted by Githon


OMG, that was a BK moment.

Don't go draging me into a Gundam Wing argument... I am still on MSG... Just got lazy since I got SATs...

And Eddy goddamn it, lay of the snochps or stop with the hong kong subtitles at least...

[MauveVandal]

Originally posted by Black_Knight
Don't go draging me into a Gundam Wing argument... I am still on MSG... Just got lazy since I got SATs...

And Eddy goddamn it, lay of the snochps or stop with the hong kong subtitles at least...

Got lazy? You mean got embarrassed and disproved every comment? Whatever your excuse or reason...

As for Hong Kong subs, I figure with as many mistakes you have in your post you would be a Hong Kong subber with your "Gau".

[Githon]

Originally posted by Black_Knight
Don't go draging me into a Gundam Wing argument... I am still on MSG... Just got lazy since I got SATs...

And Eddy goddamn it, lay of the snochps or stop with the hong kong subtitles at least...

Meh, I don't care. You left so I'm bored with you now

[Valkyrie]

You're telling Anwar and me to grow up?
You people are the ones who keep using old reasons to bash Wing no end (Gundams being invincible, Zechs being a rip-off etc)
OK! I GET IT! YOU'VE SAID IT A MILLION TIMES!
And even after that I still defend it with evidence and good, honest and valid points. Take a good look at this thread. Every time you bash it I've made a good response with valid points. Do you just ignore those? I've explained why Heero acts like he does. I've explained why Relena, Wufei etc act like they do. I've explained the Angel Wings on WZC. You keep saying that Wing is the worst Gundam Series (DarkPrimus) I pointed you to the direction of Stardust Memory, G-Savior and ZZ.
I've even made it clear that I'm not saying that Wing is the best series. All Anwar and me are doing is defending a series from being bashed. Like a kid defending another kid from a bully and you just keep using old tactics to wear the series down.

Thank you for showing how mature you are. You just love pointing and accusing but having little else. I just DARE you to show me when did I ever say Gundams being invincible or Zechs being a Char rip-off.

I never gave you a stereotype. But you have. You've explained and have been rebuffed as of consequence due to more reasoned thinking. But instead of going back to those posts and proving your point with more clarified statements, you think that just one statement is enough when I've clearly shown otherwise.

I don't think I'll bother expecting more from you or anyone else "defending" GW. Clearly you just can't cut it. I've shown myself to be very consise and open-minded with your reasons. But obviously you can't respond in kind. So yes, I do advise you to grow up. Bully a series?? Get a hold on yourself, the series is one of the most popular AU Gundam series around; I doubt your mere comments on this board's going to offer much else but proving my point of your lack of depth and perception.

[DarkMagician]

I said you "people". That mean that YOU may not be the one who says these things but other people too. You want to see how mature I am? Why don't you take a moment and see how mature your colleagues are?
QUOTE]Originally posted by Githon
"And it was the same reasons that every other whiny don't-bash-wing people use, therefore it doesn't count!" [/QUOTE]
WTF kind of a response is that? That's really mature isn't it? This just proves that some people just ignore other peoples comments. No matter how many times I've defended Wing with good clear points you have given me absolutly no respect whatsoever. I have seen and taken into your points and respected them (note that none of my posts are or intented to be the least bit offending).

List of Wing Arguments I have heard in my life.

1. Zechs is a Char rip-off! (Not seen in this thread but in other threads I've seen)
Thank you for stating the obvious. Sure, Zechs may have copied off Char but that doesn't mean he's a bad character. He's tragic past reflect that of Char and his skills as a MS pilot is indeed noticible. Later on in the series he defects to the White Fang side and wishes to destroy the Earth because he believes that the sources of wars was the Earth. This is true when you think back to the wars that had happened on Earth. He believes that once the Earth is uninhabitable, people will live only in colonies where there won't be any wars anymore. Compared to the Earth, the colonies didn't nearly have as much wars. Zechs ideals of peace were in the right place, but his methods to obtain peace is wrong. When he saw that Heero(whom he had fought many times and had a respect for him) is persistent and determined in saving the Earth, he realises that Earth might have hope after all. In EW he tries to stop the Mariemaia army because as he himself said,"They'll end up giving birth to a 2nd Milliardo Peacecraft." Which means that he renounces he actions a year ago and wishes to amend it.

2. The Leo designs are ugly!
Okay, I'll admit they're not exactly beautiful but the UC have had their fair shares of ugly MS/MA designs as well (Bound Doc, Zakrello, Big Zam etc)

3. The Leos are weak! Why would anyone in their right mind uses these to challenge a Gundam?
Before the Gundams first appeared, the Leos were thought to be the most feared weapons the world had ever seen. It proves this by performing a number of successful missions in the past. So when reports come in and say that 1 MS have destroyed an entire OZ base, you'd find it hard to believe. So you just go on out there and see for yourself. Usually when you do, it'll be too late. And even if they do realise that it's for real, WTF can they do about it? They're soldiers, they've signed their life away and they've put on the uniform. Sure they may not want to do it, but do they have a choice? No.

4. What's up with Heero?
Heero is a complex character. He was trained to be an assasin from childhood (although he still had his emotions as Dr.J said, he used to be a kind hearted young boy). Ironically, the man who raised him was also the man who killed the real Heero Yui. He was also trained to be part of Operation Meteor. However, during one mission to destroy a base, he accidently killed a girl and a dog. His emotions got the better of him and burying the dead dog. Dekim Barton saw this emotion as a sign of weakness and ordered him to be retrained. This is to play a key role in the series. When GW started, the effects of his retraining is shown as he kills without mercy. He also threatened to kill Relena because she saw him and might jeapodise his missions. However, Relena and her kindness starts to trigger back some memories of his about the little girl and her kindness. After this, more and more emotions starts to return to Heero. He starts to defend civilians later in the series (something which he wouldn't have done earlier). He also starts to see that some battles are unessessary. He also had a conversation with Relena, during which he finally shows that his emotions have returned. He promises Relena he'll come back, he was smiling when he talked to Relena. During the the final battle between Heero and Zechs, Heero didn't finish Zechs off because "Relena would be sad", once again showing that his emotions have returned. Finally when Heero was shooting the last piece of Libra, he shouted "I don't want to die!" (or "I will survive" depending which version you're watching). because he now learns the value of life. EW proves this because he doesn't actually kill anyone and after Mariemaia, he says "I will never kill again. I don't have to anymore" which ends his battles and he can forget about his past.

5. What's with the Wing Gundam? And the WZC?
The Wing Gundam is the main Gundam of the series. It's a pretty good all-rounder. It has a buster cannon, which although powerful, can only be fired 3 times before it needs recharging. The bird mode is used for flying in the air and for re-enty to the atmosphere. Without bird mode, the Gundam would crumble as Wing Zero did when it shot Libra or a piece of it. In the first ep, the shuttle was used for disguising but OZ already knew about Operations M but in a crucial mission like this, any disguise is worth a shot. Wing Zero is the bigger brother of Wing Gundam. It has two buster cannons, it can also enter bird mode and has the devastating Zero system. This system allows the pilot to be more aware and calculate the oppenents tactics. However, it also drives you nuts. Every single person who had piloted it went crazy (including Heero) Heero however, piloted a bit more and finally mastered it. Wing Zero Custom is the one with the Angel Wings. These wings serves two perposes, it acts as a heat shield for re-entry to the atmosphere since bird mode is gone. And it also acts as a shield since it's normal shield is gone.

I have to go now but you cannot honestly say that these posts is lacking in depth and perception. I do have some more arguments which I will post later. All I ask is that you read them and if there's one thing that you don't agree on or if there's another point I haven't covered then just tell me. Don't insult me and call me immature coz that just is bullying. I'm trying my best here and I really don't need abuse.
Things I will include will be:

What's up with Wufei?
The Gundams are invincible!
What's up with Relena?
How do they do it?
Why do none of the "pretty boys" die?
And more..

[Eddy]

Originally posted by DarkMagician
[B]I said you "people". That mean that YOU may not be the one who says these things but other people too. You want to see how mature I am? Why don't you take a moment and see how mature your colleagues are?
QUOTE]Originally posted by Githon
"
List of Wing Arguments I have heard in my life.

1. Zechs is a Char rip-off! (Not seen in this thread but in other threads I've seen)
Thank you for stating the obvious. Sure, Zechs may have copied off Char but that doesn't mean he's a bad character

2. The Leo designs are ugly!
Okay, I'll admit they're not exactly beautiful but the UC have had their fair shares of ugly MS/MA designs as well (Bound Doc, Zakrello, Big Zam etc)

3. The Leos are weak! Why would anyone in their right mind uses these to challenge a Gundam?
Before the Gundams first appeared, the Leos were thought to be the most feared weapons the world had ever seen. It proves this by performing a number of successful missions in the past. So when reports come in and say that 1 MS have destroyed an entire OZ base, you'd find it hard to believe. So you just go on out there and see for yourself.

4. What's up with Heero?
Heero is a complex character. He was trained to be an assasin from childhood (although he still had his emotions as Dr.J said, he used to be a kind hearted young boy

5. What's with the Wing Gundam? And the WZC?
The Wing Gundam is the main Gundam of the series. It's a pretty good all-rounder. It has a buster cannon, which although powerful, can only be


And more..

1. Zechs character is just very starnge, he sais that earth is the cause of all battles but that's complete bull since the white fang are presenting war just as much as oz is, you'd have to be completely brain dead not to see that..well of course zechs fits that bill. His meaningless duels with heero made no sense at all AS DID HIS EMANINGLESS SPEECHES ABOUT "ASPHETIC SENSES IN BATTLE" AND SUCH, they were supposed to be rivals but there was no real hatred between them, then they tried to talk it off with some crap about "honour" as usual. What makes me wonder is why zechs is so concerned about not killing off heero when noin found hIm because of honour but later when he fires the libras cannon and fries thousands he did'nt give a ----..why?

2.there have been many ugly designs in uc..but not on the continous scale of the leos there was just no variety it was just leo and aries for the most part.. The leo's were really ugly yet they were consitant throughour the whole show..they never seemed to advance at all and where were all the custom suits for the oz aces? even zz gundam had plenty of em but there nowhere to be seen in wing.

3. As i said before tehy should have advanced the leo designs or made upgraded suits like they did in all the other series, contnually using leos was just suicide....not only that it was in credibly cheap and unentertaining seeing stock footaghe after stock footage of leos being destroyed, could'nt we have seen new moves and skills used by pilots of each side?

4.If he was a kind hearted boy he would'nt start laughing manically after slaughtering defeseless cargo plane pilots..it seems like his emotions only show through when its convinient for the plot. And is'nt it amazing that he turns into a nice guy right at the end of the show?

5. I Thought the gundams themselves were pretty cool..the wing zero just seemed like an advanced version of the zeta gundam only with a ridcously overpoweered beam rifle..where the hell does it get its energy from?

[Githon]

I'm amazed you still have not gotten the point of what I said, but more amazed that you're still complaining about it.

That is *exactly* what you said to us, several times. "I've heard that point before, therefore it is invalid, therefore you have no argument and so that means I'm right".

You continually complain that we have not brought up any points you haven't heard before, despite the fact that not only are they all still valid points, but every point that can be made has been made. If the entire series except for the backround music is listed as a fault, there's nothing left to fault except the music, which everyone agrees is at the very least decent.

At the same time, however, you have not brought any new arguments to the table either. You repeat the same mantra of defenses every other wing fanboy chants on why Wing isn't bad. But somehow, it's okay for YOU to recycle points that have been made millions of times and assert that they are valid, intelligent, and reasonable, but not for us to say anything you've ever heard before.

You also state that you have respected everyone elses points when you have clearly not, and state that none of your posts are made to be offensive when several have been, regardless of intention. But then at the same time, this can't be true of everyone else?

Everyone else's responses are vile, immature attacks, but yours are polite coherent arguments that make a valid case? Think about that.

[DarkMagician]

This is why I've started the list in my last post. State what YOUR argument is for hating Wing and I shall put up your argument on that list and I shall try and respond to it. That way I WILL be answering your post and NO ONE will be re-using arguments. So tell me your points now, and I'll stick it in my post and will respond with clear, on-topic reply.

[Githon]

If you haven't noticed, I wasn't even participating in the 'discussion. I only started posting because Anwar started flaming me because he could remember my name, and then only continued to point out how silly your complaint was. I really couldn't care less wether you like wing or not.

[DarkMagician]

So you don't really have any reasons for hating Wing?

[MauveVandal]

Thats great, you ask Githon why he dislikes Wing. Only so you can bring up the point of saying "I've heard that before! I'm so tired of hearing that!" If the same thing keeps getting repeated by different people on one common subject that means there is something wrong with the subject not the people.

[Anwar]

DM wanted to see if Githon had any original reasons for disliking Wing, unlike the same old crap over and over. Those things you keep on saying are bad can be explained if you think about it, but you keep ignoring those possibilities and saying those saem things over and over. That's what we're PO'ed at.

And as for why their weren't any customs, there were a few. Lady Une used a sort of Custom against Wufei, and Noin had a sort of Custom Aries. The reason there weren't many is because there wasn't a need for them. you don't waste money on that sort of stuff unless it's necessary or at actual war. Since the Alliance was unprepared for the Gundam attack they didn't really have the time for any advancements or anything before OZ took over. Zeon et all could upgrade their suits and everything becuase they were at actual war whereas the Alliance didn't take the Gundams seriously until it was too late.

Afterwards, the Taurus essentially took over for the Leos so OZ abadoned them completely not bothering to upgrade them cause it would cost less and be more time-effective to use Taurus'. And after that they had the MDs so there was even less reason to focus on making any more advancements to things that were essentially obsolete. Those that were left over that Treize used were becuase of his idealistic nature (Man vs Machine, etc) and besides, they didn't have much time to upgrade all the Leos.

Then we had the Serpents, which were supposed to be the Leos sucessor, but then when the MDs came along they were abaondoned. It makes sense if you actually put effort into trying to figure these things out.

Heero laughed at the OZ guys he blew up because he was trained to be only able to feel anything at all when he killed his enemies. He could only feel anything when he fought so that's probbaly why he laughed, he may not have thought it was funny but may as well milked all the pleasure he could out of it.

[MauveVandal]

Originally posted by Anwar

DM wanted to see if Githon had any original reasons for disliking Wing, unlike the same old crap over and over. Those things you keep on saying are bad can be explained if you think about it, but you keep ignoring those possibilities and saying those saem things over and over. That's what we're PO'ed at.

Originally posted by MauveVandal
Well allow me too explain my dislikes. I don't like the characters because they are fairly bland, dull, predictable and they're overall characters are extremely exaggerated to fit their "roles". When I say exaggerated to fit their roles, I mean Heero is the extremely serious and professional person who is very determined. Duo, the loud mouth of the group of G-Boys, who is often more talk than walk. Trowa, strong silent type that when he speaks everyone listens because it has meaning behind it. Quarte, the softy of the G-Boys who is very emotional and overly friendly. Wufei, typical "I have an honor code type, go Bushido!" Zechs, the (now)cliche I have a tragic past so I'm going to cause trouble in the organization who did <enter reason here>. Noin, the support character whom everyone turns to, to talk to. Treize, a respectable villian in the beginning but ultimately had noble and good intentions. They're all real shallow, 2D. There are explainations for the way they act in Endless Waltz and whatever mangas there are. But that doesn't explain why they continue to act the same, instead of changing themselves to change the things around them.

Then the Mobile Suits, first off are the Gundams. All are more flash and less necessity. They do have a lot of unneeded planes, and the useless Bird Modes. There is nothing complex about the Bird Modes, the wrist and waist twist around and the head twist while the shield covers the head and torso. So basically it looks like little more than a normal MS hiding behind a shield, plus all the Gundams bring their own little gimmick factor. I hate the non-Gundam MS-designs the most, they look like little more than some Titanium with a big goggle for eyes and tin cans for arms and legs. Plus there isn't much in the way of variety, they're all MS that can only fight in close-to-mid range with the exception being the Tragos and Vayate.

The plot, it was lacking something crucial to all plots... a central conflict! The whole series just jumps around, plus all this philosophy about war yet there is no actual war until the latter half of the series. Relena's "the key to peace is to disarm all nations" is incorrect IMO, disarming nations just means a more primitive of warfare. Then Treize's belief that the soldier is the most beautiful of all creations, and believes that no machine can take a man's place. I guess that means he condones the mass killing of his troops by things like the Libra Cannon, some leader.

Who is ignoring whose comments?

[Githon]

Originally posted by DarkMagician
So you don't really have any reasons for hating Wing?

Just the idiot fanbase showing it in the US created, causing me to have to deal with seeing billions of topics about how Wing Zero > j00. Other than that, I find Wing, at worst, an annoyance. I certainly like it a lot more than DBZ, and I watch that because I find it amusing waiting to see which new glowy thingy they come up with to beat the new ultimate evil in the universe (Really, think about it, every new ultimate evil is defeated by a new glowy-thingy!)

Originally posted by Anwar
you keep ignoring those possibilities and saying those saem things over and over. That's what we're PO'ed at.

And so do you. Which was the entire point of the quote DM got mad at in the first place, to demonstrate how flawed that argument/complaint is, that our reason is invalid just because you've made *a* response, or even just if you've heard it before.

[Anwar]

I'm not saying it's invalid or anything, just that we already countered it and you still come with the same argument over and over. It's always either "The Gundams are too strong" or "Heero is a hypocrite" and stuff, we already countered those arguments so there's no point in using them again and again unless you want us to keep countering them again and again.