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Old 18-07-2004, 04:55 PM   #1   [permalink]
dheu
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Paranoia Agent

What an extremely twisted ride that was. Did anyone else watch this?

I'd like to put up a brief summary of the show so that people who've never heard of it can understand what I'm talking about... but frankly it's impossible. I guess the simplest thing I can say is that there is a mysterious boy riding around on rollerskates beating up people with a bent golden bat... and then there's a detective or two pursuing him. After that (which sums up probably the first half of the first episode), it all gets a little weird.

If you haven't seen all 13 episodes, you might want to stay away from the spoilers below.

Spoiler:
So... basically... Shounen Bat represents people's desire to avoid reality and live in a dream world... and Maromi represents the illusion that those people exist in. Which would explain why there was a run on Maromi paraphanelia: no one really wants to live in the real world without their rose-colored glasses. Or, rather, Maromi-shaped glasses. So what is the message here: deluding yourself will cause the destruction of the world by way of an enormous black sentient mass?

And what happened at the end? From the short clips of the different characters leading their old pre-batting lives, things apparently just went back to normal. The cycle begins again with a new cute/cuddly evil character and a new "sage". But what does the old man writing on the sidewalk have to do with the entire storyline? How did he know what was happening? Did his insanity give him the ability to determine the real from the fake, and the ability to see how the people around him were deluding themselves?


Agh. Maybe the show means absolutely nothing whatsoever, and I'm really thinking too hard about this.
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Old 23-07-2004, 05:29 AM   #2   [permalink]
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I saw the first ep with a group of friends and the general consensus was:

"This is fucked up."

I mean, an opening involving the cast standing around laughing accompanied by a theme that sounds like a hymn to all Kamikaze Pilots everywhere?!
Weird.....
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Old 24-07-2004, 09:48 PM   #3   [permalink]
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Someone replied? I was thinking I'd have to start talking to myself in here...

Yeah, the opening sequence ranks as one of the weirdest I've seen: everyone standing around laughing while terrible calamities go on around them, with that song.... I'd say it's pretty fitting for the series, though, considering what happens in later episodes!

Were you planning to watch any more episodes?

If so, leave your sanity at the door.
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Old 11-08-2004, 12:51 PM   #4   [permalink]
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dheu, excelent post on your short-hand synopsis of 妄想代理人 (Paranoia Agent) and theorized meaning of said story.

i absolutely loved this series. when it first began airing in February, i found it to be the most refreshing anime i'd seen since Serial Experiments Lain, Boogiepop Phantom, and FLCL. excited, i kept up with it thru the very end.

not many stories challenge my mind in the ways that Paranoia Agent did. it demands your attention, yet also demands that you relax and simply take it in - instead of focusing your strangth at the attempt to piece every clue together like a million-piece jigsaw puzzle with no face.

i recommend this series to anyone who's looking for something refreshing, new, unique, creative, intelectual, odd, beautiful, uplifting, creepy, mindblowing, confusing... etc.


however, back to dheu, i must also add the following...
Spoiler:
i think you're right on key with your comprehension of the substance of Paranoia Agent. what happened at the end, however, i believe is far simpler than the events that lead up to it. does the cycle begin again? or are we given another chance to avoid Shounen Bat? or could it possibly be, that we are regurgitated elsewhere, to simply observe the cycle?

the old man, i believe, is one of two things... either the storyteller in form of his knowledge of the events that are to come and the truth of what is. the storyteller as the being who experiences these events before they are even realized on paper. the prophet, so to speak.

or, the old man is us, the observer. putting things to gether as he observes, yet already thinking ahead of the images on screen, in attempt to anticipate how things are connected, or what will come before us as effect of such incidents. the old man isn't entirely certain of the events... he doesn't anticipated the answer he draws on the sidewalk.



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Old 11-08-2004, 06:12 PM   #5   [permalink]
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Thanks for the compliment. I love this series too, and I'm glad it's going to be released in October already. I know I'm going to be picking this up. Paranoia Agent deserves another viewing... and another... Kon really knows how to direct fascinating anime.

Okay. And now, a ton of spoiler tags:

Originally Posted by heart havok
however, back to dheu, i must also add the following...
Spoiler:
i think you're right on key with your comprehension of the substance of Paranoia Agent. what happened at the end, however, i believe is far simpler than the events that lead up to it. does the cycle begin again? or are we given another chance to avoid Shounen Bat? or could it possibly be, that we are regurgitated elsewhere, to simply observe the cycle?
Spoiler:
The cycle does begin again. Regardless of the destruction of escapism, I think humankind is just prone to want things sugar-coated. They want to live in the world they like, and they don't like it when things go wrong. Even after what happened as a result of Tsukiko's desire to avoid the truth of what happened to Maromi, I think there are tons of people who still have that escapist mentality. Even with the chance to avoid Shounen Bat the next time, I doubt that things will change.

And I'm not quite sure what you meant by the regurgitation remark.


Quote:
Spoiler:
the old man, i believe, is one of two things... either the storyteller in form of his knowledge of the events that are to come and the truth of what is. the storyteller as the being who experiences these events before they are even realized on paper. the prophet, so to speak.

Spoiler:
Yeah. It makes me wonder if the first sage experienced a previous cycle as well and became the prophet because of some connection to that. If there is a cycle coming again with a new "old" man, then it seems likely that there have been others before.

Just how many times has Tokyo been destroyed by giant black blobs?


Quote:
Spoiler:
or, the old man is us, the observer. putting things to gether as he observes, yet already thinking ahead of the images on screen, in attempt to anticipate how things are connected, or what will come before us as effect of such incidents. the old man isn't entirely certain of the events... he doesn't anticipated the answer he draws on the sidewalk.
Spoiler:
Ooo. I didn't think of it that way. Hmmm....
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Old 11-08-2004, 11:53 PM   #6   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by dheu
Thanks for the compliment. I love this series too, and I'm glad it's going to be released in October already. I know I'm going to be picking this up. Paranoia Agent deserves another viewing... and another... Kon really knows how to direct fascinating anime.
quite true. i can't wait to preorder it =) thusfar, my favourite of 2004.


Spoiler:
Originally Posted by dheu
Spoiler:
The cycle does begin again. Regardless of the destruction of escapism, I think humankind is just prone to want things sugar-coated. They want to live in the world they like, and they don't like it when things go wrong. Even after what happened as a result of Tsukiko's desire to avoid the truth of what happened to Maromi, I think there are tons of people who still have that escapist mentality. Even with the chance to avoid Shounen Bat the next time, I doubt that things will change.

And I'm not quite sure what you meant by the regurgitation remark.
certainly, in our real life, the cycle begins again. i definitely agree there.

i'm speaking, however, in context of the story. is the storyteller suggesting that this cycle is unavoidable? or rather, that to destroy this black glop, we must all face reality? people certainly are prone to escapism. hell, that's why i'm here discussing Paranoia Agent instead of focusing on work i should be doing.

in the context of the story, we aren't given enough to tell whether or not the nExt line of people will turn towards escapism or not. in suggesting such, i'm considering that we are "regurgitated" to another plane of existence. perhaps, in the context of the story, when we face our harsh realities, we see a new life (after glop) in which we can freely observe those around us with an open and clear mind. kinda' how the addict's first reaction is to deny addiction. those clean of the addiction see it clearly.

those clean of escapism see it clearly.


Originally Posted by dheu
Spoiler:
Yeah. It makes me wonder if the first sage experienced a previous cycle as well and became the prophet because of some connection to that. If there is a cycle coming again with a new "old" man, then it seems likely that there have been others before.

Just how many times has Tokyo been destroyed by giant black blobs?
i hadn't considered this much, but i should have. you bring up a great point. it's so true: if the new sage was from the "Paranoia Agent" cycle, then it's only logical to presume that the first sage was from a previous cycle. but that means, if that's the case, then that clears up who the 'sage' character represents in the story...

the sage most certainly is he who learns from the mystakes of others.

the person who observes and tries to comprehend and aide others selflessly. such a person usually finds in the end that there's only so much you can do for others, and it is until a victim is willing to help themselves that they can be saved. he who experiences such tries to warn others, tries to save them before they result to unordained actions (prophcising?). however, no one notices in the end and thus unneccessarily and irresponsibly repeat the cycle.

this seems quite similar to the common story of friend aiding friend.
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Old 12-08-2004, 04:06 AM   #7   [permalink]
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Grrrrrrr.... I had a wonderful reply written up, and then everything went to hell. Let's see if I can recreate it.

Originally Posted by heart havok
Spoiler:

certainly, in our real life, the cycle begins again. i definitely agree there.

i'm speaking, however, in context of the story. is the storyteller suggesting that this cycle is unavoidable? or rather, that to destroy this black glop, we must all face reality? people certainly are prone to escapism. hell, that's why i'm here discussing Paranoia Agent instead of focusing on work i should be doing.



Quote:
Spoiler:
in the context of the story, we aren't given enough to tell whether or not the nExt line of people will turn towards escapism or not.

Spoiler:
Hmm. Actually, I disagree there. I'm not sure if I'm remembering it correctly, but I seem to recall near the end of the last episode that the new sage was chalking up something on the pavement, and he had a dismayed look on his face as he finished his calculations. That seems to indicate that there will be another victim of the Shounen Bat; he knows that there will be another person with the longing to delude themselves to escape reality, and that the Shounen Bat will strike again.


Quote:
Spoiler:
in suggesting such, i'm considering that we are "regurgitated" to another plane of existence. perhaps, in the context of the story, when we face our harsh realities, we see a new life (after glop) in which we can freely observe those around us with an open and clear mind. kinda' how the addict's first reaction is to deny addiction. those clean of the addiction see it clearly.

those clean of escapism see it clearly.

Spoiler:
Interesting point. But would this then only apply to the people who had once been victims of the Shounen Bat? Having been forcibly faced with the results of escapism, they would be the ones to truly understand that self-delusion is not, in the end, the way to go.

Yet at the same time something that's bothered me is that near the end of the final episode, we see the victims of the Shounen Bat walking around. Some of them seem different (I believe the two boys were talking and laughing together instead of being rivals, which indicates the one boy is not blaming the other to escape from his own situation, so he's grown to accept reality), but then others seemed exactly the same as before the Shounen Bat got to them (the one weasely little guy, son of the old sage I believe, was speaking on the phone in a similar way to how he was speaking before his attack, which seems to show that some people will go on escaping reality regardless of the consequences it might have).

But then again, it's been awhile since I watched that last episode and I'm afraid those small snippets whipped by pretty quickly. I'll have to watch it again.



Quote:
Spoiler:
i hadn't considered this much, but i should have. you bring up a great point. it's so true: if the new sage was from the "Paranoia Agent" cycle, then it's only logical to presume that the first sage was from a previous cycle. but that means, if that's the case, then that clears up who the 'sage' character represents in the story...

the sage most certainly is he who learns from the mystakes of others.

the person who observes and tries to comprehend and aide others selflessly. such a person usually finds in the end that there's only so much you can do for others, and it is until a victim is willing to help themselves that they can be saved. he who experiences such tries to warn others, tries to save them before they result to unordained actions (prophcising?). however, no one notices in the end and thus unneccessarily and irresponsibly repeat the cycle.

this seems quite similar to the common story of friend aiding friend.
Spoiler:
Aha! I never connected those thoughts together. That's the significance of the sage. The new sage (before he became a sage) saw through the self-delusion of the fake Shounen Bat.


Never fails. The posts I spend the most time developing always manage to disappear somehow, and they're never quite as good the second time I write them.
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Old 12-08-2004, 02:17 PM   #8   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by dheu
Grrrrrrr.... I had a wonderful reply written up, and then everything went to hell. Let's see if I can recreate it.
i know exactly how that is! that's why at one point i stopped taking my time posting enormous, in-depth, 3 hour long posts. well, until now, that is... now i'm starting to take my time to analyze again ^_~

let the spoiler-filled discussion begin!

Spoiler:
Originally Posted by dheu
Spoiler:
Hmm. Actually, I disagree there. I'm not sure if I'm remembering it correctly, but I seem to recall near the end of the last episode that the new sage was chalking up something on the pavement, and he had a dismayed look on his face as he finished his calculations. That seems to indicate that there will be another victim of the Shounen Bat; he knows that there will be another person with the longing to delude themselves to escape reality, and that the Shounen Bat will strike again.
awesome! i also noticed the disgruntled look on the sage's face. i interpreted that completely different, however, and more as a sign of the sage's frustration with the possibility and outcome of Shounen Bat and less of a sign that guarantees the cycle to repeat itself. in low man's lyric: as though the sage knows the possibility of Shounen Bat's return and knows exactly how peoples' escapism brings the return of Shounen Bat, and his disgruntled look is a disappointment, upset that it's still possible even though reality 'reset' itself (so to speak).

it's neat how we both interpreted a single expression on a character's face so differently.

when i consider your theory as well, i can't decide which idea works best for me. perhaps our ideas on the symbol of the sage character would clear that up.

Originally Posted by dheu
Spoiler:
Interesting point. But would this then only apply to the people who had once been victims of the Shounen Bat? Having been forcibly faced with the results of escapism, they would be the ones to truly understand that self-delusion is not, in the end, the way to go.

Yet at the same time something that's bothered me is that near the end of the final episode, we see the victims of the Shounen Bat walking around. Some of them seem different (I believe the two boys were talking and laughing together instead of being rivals, which indicates the one boy is not blaming the other to escape from his own situation, so he's grown to accept reality), but then others seemed exactly the same as before the Shounen Bat got to them (the one weasely little guy, son of the old sage I believe, was speaking on the phone in a similar way to how he was speaking before his attack, which seems to show that some people will go on escaping reality regardless of the consequences it might have).
ooh, good observation. it's possible that i had only noticed the characters who seemed changed afterwards. i will have to give the final episode another viewing to see if i notice the same reactions by some of the characters also! we'll come back to this one =D

Originally Posted by dheu
Spoiler:

But then again, it's been awhile since I watched that last episode and I'm afraid those small snippets whipped by pretty quickly. I'll have to watch it again.
my thoughts exactly... me too.

Originally Posted by dheu
Spoiler:
Aha! I never connected those thoughts together. That's the significance of the sage. The new sage (before he became a sage) saw through the self-delusion of the fake Shounen Bat.
indeed, which would also suggest that each time one becomes a new sage, he would also have a hope for the future [see sage's disgruntled expression].

Originally Posted by dheu
Never fails. The posts I spend the most time developing always manage to disappear somehow, and they're never quite as good the second time I write them.
that's the way it goes. i wish i had seen the other post too, 'cause these are strong ideas as is. but, what can we do but face reality and move on?
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Old 12-08-2004, 06:16 PM   #9   [permalink]
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Ha ha, you're such an awesome person to be discussing this with, because you always think of things I didn't catch.

Originally Posted by heart havok
i know exactly how that is! that's why at one point i stopped taking my time posting enormous, in-depth, 3 hour long posts. well, until now, that is... now i'm starting to take my time to analyze again ^_~
Here's an obvious pointer I found out much too late: make a copy of everything you've typed before you post it. Then again, with my luck, it's always the time I forget to do that that I lose everything, so that pointer might not be so helpful after all.

*sigh*

Spoiler:

Quote:
Spoiler:
awesome! i also noticed the disgruntled look on the sage's face. i interpreted that completely different, however, and more as a sign of the sage's frustration with the possibility and outcome of Shounen Bat and less of a sign that guarantees the cycle to repeat itself. in low man's lyric: as though the sage knows the possibility of Shounen Bat's return and knows exactly how peoples' escapism brings the return of Shounen Bat, and his disgruntled look is a disappointment, upset that it's still possible even though reality 'reset' itself (so to speak).
Ahhhh.... It could be that after all. I really need to watch that again.

I think what also made me assume that the cycle would definitely continue is the fact that they had another "Dream" segment at the end, with the new sage speaking and prophesizing another coming of Shounen Bat, basically. But is it a prophesy or a warning? Will it definitely come to pass, or is he trying to alert the potential victim and alter their way of thinking before it is too late? I always thought it was a prophesy, but thinking of it differently, it could just be warning after all.

Quote:
Spoiler:
it's neat how we both interpreted a single expression on a character's face so differently.
Mm-hm, mm-hm. That's what makes this series so great. There are so many ways to interpret things.

Quote:
Spoiler:
ooh, good observation. it's possible that i had only noticed the characters who seemed changed afterwards. i will have to give the final episode another viewing to see if i notice the same reactions by some of the characters also! we'll come back to this one =D
See, but that's another thing I'm not sure about. Were all of those people changed, were some of them, or none of them? I only remember glimpses of that last sequence. Yes, I'll be back later to clarify this one.

Quote:
but, what can we do but face reality and move on?
No! I can't deal with it. I need to escape from-- *whack*


Man, I'm glad someone else watched this to the end. I had so many questions when I finished it! But now it's making a lot more sense.
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Old 12-08-2004, 07:49 PM   #10   [permalink]
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yeah, i came to post on AnimeBoards for that very reason... to find someone to talk Paranoia Agent with =)

i'm still going to get back to you after watching the last episode again tonight though. see you then!
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Old 15-08-2004, 11:24 PM   #11   [permalink]
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I finally rewatched the last episode... and darn it all, I think it confused me even more.

Spoiler:
First of all, those extremely brief glimpses of all the characters we see after Tsukiko accepts what happened to her dog all seem to point to your idea, that all the victims learned to face reality... or at least have come to face those aspects of reality that they were running from.

But then at the end, the creepy weasely guy from the first few episodes gives a weird smile to what looks like Tsukiko with her hair cropped short and in a school uniform (?)... and I don't know what to make of any of that. Is that Tsukiko? Why is she in a uniform? Doesn't she have a job? Unless she was fired... but that really looked like a high-school uniform... so she... somehow regressed back into high school... huh? And why is that guy smiling at her like that?

And the all-important question: Why is Konya (the kitty) shooting flowers out of his mouth when he yawns?

Oh, and another thing. When the older detective emerges from the subway into ruined Tokyo, he says "It's just like after the War." Whoa, wait a second. Is this series supposed to be some kind of allegory, an analogy for World War II? But that doesn't make sense at all, unless perhaps Kon is trying to make some pointed remark that Japanese officials during WWII were trying to avoid facing the situation they were in, or something like that. And that's stretching it quite a bit. Or is what the detective said just an idle comment made to describe the degree of destruction that Tokyo suffered?

Hmmm.... probably just an idle comment, but it seems kind of a strange idle comment to make in a series where what people say is often very important.


So much for a rewatch clearing things up!

*sigh*
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Old 29-08-2005, 08:45 AM   #12   [permalink]
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Finished Paranoia Agent today. Perfect Blue was a provocative piece of work that was put together quite well. Millennium Actress was sheer unadulterated perfection so I'm surprised I avoided the original release of PA and waited for the DVD box set but it was certainly a worthwhile purchase.

One of the best animes I've seen in years and hands down winner for best of 2005 on DVD. Although itís not quite my idea of a perfect experience but itís very close. Kon managed to bring something really dark and mature to screen without having to resort to over the top violence or nudity to do it.

I've had a taste for the askew lately but PA has done it so much better than other recent efforts like GANTZ or Elfen Lied and has left me thoroughly satisfied.

Highly recommend to all.
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Old 30-08-2005, 04:06 AM   #13   [permalink]
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Could one of you two please put into words your interpretation of the episodes surrounding the little girl and the 2 men. I felt like I was missing a cultural background story or something.

I dont know how to make spoiler button =/
I know they werent people. Could they have represented the extent to which people deny reality? Deny their own death or deny their own life? I.Dont.Understand.

I enjoyed the series, but I was mostly laughing for the randomness of it. I mean, it was so serious, and then suddenly it was so lighthearted (when they arrested the first bat). Then it became serious again, then it went ridiculous.
Theme song + associated images = win.
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Old 30-08-2005, 08:03 PM   #14   [permalink]
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Spoiler:
Yeah, I think you've got the right idea there. They might represent the people who are blind to what is really going on around them because they're so focused on getting what they want rather than accepting what they have. They are disconnected from reality, much like the policeman (I forgot his name; it's been awhile) becomes in the last few episodes. He doesn't want to see what's really there, he wants to see his own fantasy... and maybe it's the same with those three people. Perhaps they didn't actually want to die, in the end, so even though they killed themselves, they "live" on, deluding themselves into thinking that reality is not what it actually is. In other words, pretending that they're not actually dead because they can't face that reality.


And you can make a spoiler button simply with "spoiler" in the [] and [/] tags.
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Old 31-08-2005, 07:09 PM   #15   [permalink]
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There sure is a lot of spoilers here. I've seen all of the episodes and think it gets pretty weird after the first few episodes. The good thing is that the last episode shows a good reason why those happen.
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