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Old 09-04-2008, 06:09 PM   #31   [permalink]
SamIam
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Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
I'll never understand you Rei lovers. So instead I'll just assume you're all creeps who like women that can't reject you because their own sense of self is so small.
I think it has something to do with the culture ... the traditional Japan was very regimented and structured, so much so, that individualism was looked down upon in favor of role assimilation and duty.

In particular, the role of women was more or less to be a dutiful wife & homemaker who catered to her husband. Now, in the modern era, much of the male bias has fallen to the more liberal and egalitarian view of equal rights (in particular against gender, race and creed)

... which then leaves a moral vacuum in regards to a deeply entrenched cultural expectation for the "obedient and docile wife" figure. Hence, the adoption of anime for purposes of fantasy in the form of "Rei" and her conceptual siblings.
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Old 09-04-2008, 07:02 PM   #32   [permalink]
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I'd agree with Sam here in the sense that Rei has the qualities of a house-trained female entity which is reminiscent of the concept of the archetypal woman in a patriarchal household. An entity lacking individualism and thus sensitive to the needs of humanity as a whole. This makes her an ideal candidate to serve as some sort of faceless, generic "guardian angel" for calamity Shinji.

Although her popularity is more easily explained by obsessed fans getting a rise from lewd thoughts and pornographic fan-fictions. Stripping Rei naked in the End of Evangelion, whatever purpose that has in the plot, also serves as a cheap (but effective) marketing ploy.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:30 AM   #33   [permalink]
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Bullshit. Do you guys really buy that "50s women were docile" crap? Sure, maybe in Japan..but Westerners used to have women who kicked ass, even if their legal/political and cultural power was curbed.

Looking at the older generations, there is no doubt in my mind that only rich folk had pushover wives. Everyone else had a wife who knew you couldn't divorce or cheat on her without massive social stigma. Remember when cheating with the secretary was news? Rei is less than a child. My 7yo niece has more backbone and spirit. God, she's not even a doll. She's a walking corpse (to borrow the phrase from "Lost Odyssey").

Kinda like how most guys dating asians will tell you flat out that asian women are *not* docile. They wont degrade you in public, but that so does not ------- mean you can bully em. As fun as that would be....

When Rei rejected Gendo Ikari, she was only just getting the sense of self and choice that my 4yo nephew possesses. Seriously, kid tells me what to do.
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Old 11-04-2008, 08:49 AM   #34   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Bullshit. Do you guys really buy that "50s women were docile" crap? Sure, maybe in Japan..but Westerners used to have women who kicked ass, even if their legal/political and cultural power was curbed.
Relatively speaking ... yes ... but that really was not the point, go back further to the core of the "traditional" view and you will find that proper meant dutiful and faithful. The husband by cultural view had the right to beat or even kill the wife for relatively minor infractions ... heck, the Samurai as a class could kill any commoner for something as vague as a perceived lack of respect.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Kinda like how most guys dating asians will tell you flat out that asian women are *not* docile. They wont degrade you in public, but that so does not ------- mean you can bully em. As fun as that would be....

When Rei rejected Gendo Ikari, she was only just getting the sense of self and choice that my 4yo nephew possesses. Seriously, kid tells me what to do.
Yes, in todays world, that makes sense ... and as such, the modern japanese male (actually male period) has to evolve with the cultural changes as manifested in a more "enlightened" era.

... as for kids telling adults what to do, well, speaking from personal experience, from a third generation Japanese family living in Hawaii ... as watered down as it may be compared to our ancestors ... the children RARELY talked back to the adult. The sense of self you refer to was traditionally put into the context of the larger group effort.
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:30 PM   #35   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Bullshit. Do you guys really buy that "50s women were docile" crap? Sure, maybe in Japan..but Westerners used to have women who kicked ass, even if their legal/political and cultural power was curbed.
I don't buy that, bros before hoes!
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Old 14-04-2008, 06:11 PM   #36   [permalink]
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I think if you go back that far for your idea of what a woman should be, its time to just drop the act and admit straight up you're terrified of girls. (When I say 'you' I'm not referring to anyone in particular other than Rei fans using that line).

A 'traditional' woman should be someone from the last 100 years. Any further back and she is practically an alien for all that we'd find common ground. Sure, you could beat and probably 'honour kill' a woman at some point, but we've only been using toilet paper for less than 2 centuries. Thats a great (imo) way of framing just how ridiculous it is to think standards from that far back apply today.

As I said before, the 'meek' woman idea is probably not an accurate portrayel of many women in the last half century or more. Lets not forget how many widows there were thanks to WW1 & WW2. I doubt they got to spend their days pouting and ironing. 'Course none of today's Rei fans would be man enough for that kind of 'meek' woman. They just want the stereotype presented by those who most need to ensure women don't revert to that old way of life.

(Forget it guys, I'll never forgive Rei fans. I can admit enjoying it when Rei rejected Gendo but at no point does she ooze sexuality.)
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Old 14-04-2008, 11:50 PM   #37   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
I think if you go back that far for your idea of what a woman should be, its time to just drop the act and admit straight up you're terrified of girls. (When I say 'you' I'm not referring to anyone in particular other than Rei fans using that line).

A 'traditional' woman should be someone from the last 100 years. Any further back and she is practically an alien for all that we'd find common ground. Sure, you could beat and probably 'honour kill' a woman at some point, but we've only been using toilet paper for less than 2 centuries. Thats a great (imo) way of framing just how ridiculous it is to think standards from that far back apply today.
Well, I see where you are coming from, but have you considered the relative speed in which the cultural context has changed within the last 2 centuries?

Now for us Americans that 100 years is a significant span when taken against our national age ... but for the asian cultures, (who put much stock in tradition and historical relevance) whats a century? Add to this, the even more dramatic context of change for a cultural entity like Japan.

Hmmm... IIRC the Yayoi period 300 b.C - 300 a.d. the early beginnings of the "rice culture" and the beginnings of societal/cultural unification. ... which more or less embodied the basis for the 'traditional' roles of the asian male and female. to say the the Taisho period (1912-1926) ... which translates into something like the shock of the industrial revolution (or perhaps the progressive simultaneous expansion as the social revolution which disrupts 2 millenia of cultural expectation and historical precedence.

The end result? A mildly schizophrenic and repressed male that embraces technology and reason and yet is tied to the age old cultural precepts on identity and role. Rei, it can be argued is the 21 century musings on the role of women in the eyes of a virtual creator where Rei represents the docile Eve (Geisha metaphor) who was created to replace the independant and assertive Lilith (the modern woman) as the mate to Adam.
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Old 15-04-2008, 02:43 AM   #38   [permalink]
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The age of a culture is nothing. If you've only got your own short life span to influence your perception of the world then it doesn't matter how far back you can trace your ancestors.
I highly doubt the average Rei fan is that way because of some old dusty belief.
More likely that those old "traditional woman" models are based around a stereotype that males are hardwired or inclined to desire. In the past, the model became the reality because the world was so stupid and ------.
Now its slightly less stupid and ------ and the model is not the reality. If they continue to desire the model and indeed seek it out (even if in the form of Rei) then I'm going to rate them on the same level of a guy who likes to let his poop lay where it falls or the guy who insists on using violence to solve all problems.

Our past in regards to women is shameful at best, and to suggest it holds any legitimacy by claiming "tradition" is a weak excuse that nobody in the last quarter decade should be using.
Anyone older than the last quarter decade has bigger problems if they're hard on for a 14yo drawing (with no sense of self, sexuality or pretty much anything)
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Old 15-04-2008, 06:03 AM   #39   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
The age of a culture is nothing. If you've only got your own short life span to influence your perception of the world then it doesn't matter how far back you can trace your ancestors.

I highly doubt the average Rei fan is that way because of some old dusty belief.
If one was capable of living outside the influence of society and culture, I would agree with you ... but as it stands, humans are fundamentally social creatures with a critical need for a certain level of nurturance while young - which in turn creates a window for fundamental impressions and perceptual molding which often have major implications later in life. Best guess is that both nature and nurture play significant roles in the formation of a persons world view.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
More likely that those old "traditional woman" models are based around a stereotype that males are hardwired or inclined to desire. In the past, the model became the reality because the world was so stupid and ------.
Now its slightly less stupid and ------ and the model is not the reality. If they continue to desire the model and indeed seek it out (even if in the form of Rei) then I'm going to rate them on the same level of a guy who likes to let his poop lay where it falls or the guy who insists on using violence to solve all problems.
Well, now here is the tricky part, in that it appears that such views may have elements in both nature (your hardwiring) and nurture (your rusty old beliefs)
... my one hope is that the hardwiring aspect (if any, is minimal or dying genetically speaking)

That is if one believes that the sciences have it basically right in terms of relative evolutionary stasis for Homo Sapiens for say, the last 100 - 150 thousand years ... let alone 2 thousand.



Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Our past in regards to women is shameful at best, and to suggest it holds any legitimacy by claiming "tradition" is a weak excuse that nobody in the last quarter decade should be using.
Anyone older than the last quarter decade has bigger problems if they're hard on for a 14yo drawing (with no sense of self, sexuality or pretty much anything)
I totally agree with your sentiment ... in that there is no argument. The question remains though, what is the motivating cause or mechanism for this particular view and its apparent motivational element? Personally, as stated above, see such a perception as a legacy blend of Darwinistic "wiring" and (hopefully) a greater percentage of learned behaviours.

The sobering aspect here IMO is that if one were to reverse engineer the hypothetical selection process, one could make valid arguments for the promotion of the following traits on an quasi-instinctive level.

1. Truncated life span with harsh environmental elements may select for relatively early child bearing strategies (for number of offspring and recuperative robustness of mother figure). (Look at that PYT!)

2. Fight or flight ... where successful strategies utilizing controlled aggression equate to better survival stats. (I'm king and here are the heads to prove it)

3. Reliable adherance to social order with a hierachy of leadership and established roles within community to promote survival. (the beginnings of the notion of the female as the dutiful homemaker and the husband who gets the food).

Me Tarzan, you Jane.

So, once again, lets hope that the "hardwiring" you spoke of earlier is going the way of the appendix, otherwise ...
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Old 15-04-2008, 10:43 PM   #40   [permalink]
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Why would it disappear? We have no trouble breeding these days.

Lets introduce new 'evidence' into the discussion. And by evidence, I mean unsupported claims that are probably true, or it'd be convenient if they are.


NERDS like anime.
Ok, anime is popular these days. But Evangelion is still pretty popular with either young children or nerds. Most of the newer anime fans would be put off by the 'difficult' concepts of perception and ego. Oh and that ------ animation, melodramatic plot twists and oversaturation of meaningless symbolism.
Which leaves only the nerdlier elements, who don't mind thinking about meaningless crap instead of trying to get laid.

If the Rei archetype is so popular with the general population, why don't we see more Rei types IRL? Seems to me that Rei types are popular with the males who can't even score the attention seeking fat chicks who cosplay Rei.
Hence, Rei lovers are losers.
Circular logic, what is that?



p.s. Personally I think Hikari or whatever the class Rep's name is is a far better example of the kind of traditional woman you refer to. Equal parts compassionate and bully. Cooks food, has a sense of attraction but not like a male.
Rei is just a goddamn blowup doll.

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Old 15-04-2008, 11:19 PM   #41   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Why would it disappear? We have no trouble breeding these days.
True ... but would you not agree, by giving the female equality, the factor of her choice helps to guide the gene pool to some degree?

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Lets introduce new 'evidence' into the discussion. And by evidence, I mean unsupported claims that are probably true, or it'd be convenient if they are.


NERDS like anime.
Ok, anime is popular these days. But Evangelion is still pretty popular with either young children or nerds. Most of the newer anime fans would be put off by the 'difficult' concepts of perception and ego. Oh and that ------ animation, melodramatic plot twists and oversaturation of meaningless symbolism.
Which leaves only the nerdlier elements, who don't mind thinking about meaningless crap instead of trying to get laid.

If the Rei archetype is so popular with the general population, why don't we see more Rei types IRL? Seems to me that Rei types are popular with the males who can't even score the attention seeking fat chicks who cosplay Rei.
Hence, Rei lovers are losers.
Circular logic, what is that?
Actually, that was my point ... the male (who is beset by a relatively new social model - finds comfort in the "old ways" ... the older generation may see the likes of Rei in a somewhat nostalgic light ... the middle generation may find the concept of a dutiful and docile wife to be desirable ... and the younger generation may find it less intimidating from a social context.

Why are there not more Rei types in real life? Simple, if you were a young liberal women of the 21st. century, would you strive to emulate a doll? I wouldnt and am guessing you would not either.

Rei lovers are losers ... I think that the group that finds this model attractive will contain the "losers" you speak of, but I am inclined to think that it goes significantly beyond the poor sap that can't get a date ... but rather, such creations are the cultural echoes of an older era that stubbornly refuses to die a quick and enlightened death
[/QUOTE]



Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
p.s. Personally I think Hikari or whatever the class Rep's name is is a far better example of the kind of traditional woman you refer to. Equal parts compassionate and bully. Cooks food, has a sense of attraction but not like a male.
Rei is just a goddamn blowup doll.
Well, to be honest, traditional Japanese values DO NOT place assertive or bullying females high in terms of "lady like" behavior.
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Old 16-04-2008, 01:59 AM   #42   [permalink]
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Really? So Japanese women were submissive to their children too?
Rei couldn't do that. She'd probably just blink and tilt her head at a misbehaving child. Unless it insulted Gendo of course.

Its not nostalgia for a bygone era. Just embrace the truth Sam. Rei lovers are losers. Its not just that they like pathetic women. Its also about identity. That is why they are Rei lovers and not just "submissive type x" lovers.


As for women selecting genes, well evolution works by removing genes right? Either by the person dying of their breeding partner having a more dominant pair etc.
As long as they breed, those genes stay with us. Doesn't matter the quality of who they breed with. We're stuck with men who'll wanna propogate their genes in the fastest way. Which probably means wanting to overpower women. Dancing is for birds.
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Old 16-04-2008, 03:37 AM   #43   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Really? So Japanese women were submissive to their children too?
No, they could be firm in such instances, but if push came to shove, the next level would be "your father will hear of this" ... and if it came to that then (speaking from experience it meant OWWWWWWWWWW)

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Rei couldn't do that. She'd probably just blink and tilt her head at a misbehaving child. Unless it insulted Gendo of course.
True, but then again, like the Geisha, they would not be expected to do such things, or in the idealized scenario, they would oversee the basic function as "lady of the house".

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Its not nostalgia for a bygone era. Just embrace the truth Sam. Rei lovers are losers. Its not just that they like pathetic women. Its also about identity. That is why they are Rei lovers and not just "submissive type x" lovers.
Well, we differ here because, I see it as being broader than just the "losers" dream. IMO, its fundamental to the oldest notions of basic roles for an asian family unit. Keep in mind that the reality of a consistent (and often harsh) code of conduct, affected even the children to the extent that misbehavior, while not unknown, was considerably less that what is allowed in this day and age.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
As for women selecting genes, well evolution works by removing genes right? Either by the person dying of their breeding partner having a more dominant pair etc.
As long as they breed, those genes stay with us. Doesn't matter the quality of who they breed with. We're stuck with men who'll wanna propogate their genes in the fastest way. Which probably means wanting to overpower women. Dancing is for birds.
PKO, despite the horrors of an amoral minority, by and large, the notion of force in relation to the issue of genderal interaction is considered barbaric and justifiably criminal by intent and deed. Thus, it stands to reason, that with a more eqalitarian mate selection process, the "dysfunctional" male will contribute less and less to the gene pool over time. It may take awhile, but given the present trends towards global attitudes of a progressively more liberal nature, it stands to reason that such genetically motivated behaviours should decrease over time.
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Old 27-01-2009, 03:54 PM   #44   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Master85 View Post
Have you ever liked a certain anime character that much?
Oh yeah. What's the point of fiction if you're not going to fall in love with any of the characters?

(I should mention that my definition of "falling in love with" is more akin to "developing an obsession with," as opposed to "becoming infatuated with." The characters I fall in love with tend to be flawed, and I love them all the more for their flaws.)

Off the top of my head, I immediately fell in love with Amiboshi, from Fushigi Yuugi. He is, in fact, pretty much the sole reason I liked the series, and is the central character in all Fushigi Yuugi plot bunnies I have, some of which are fully written out in my head, with some major variations on the themes.

Oddly enough, when it comes to anime series... I think that's pretty much it. Nobody in Naruto, InuYasha, or Bleach has sparked that kind of obsession (although I've only just finished the "Soul Society: Rescue" arc in Bleach, so it's kind of hard to say). There are plenty of characters in all three of those series' that I like, some of whom I like quite a lot (Ichigo, Inoue, Naruto, Sai, InuYasha, Kagome, Miroku... just to list a few off the top of my head), but no other character has sparked that kind of obsession.

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Old 31-01-2009, 09:52 PM   #45   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Katerine View Post
Oh yeah. What's the point of fiction if you're not going to fall in love with any of the characters?
What's the point in falling in love with an anime character when you know that the character is not real and will never be real?

That's like channelling a large chunk of your instinctual energy into an illusion, and not only that, willingly.

You say that you fell in love with Amiboshi from Fushigi Yuugi, but conceptually, that's like channelling a large chunk of your instinctual energy into Captain Haddock whilst reading a Tintin book. Both require fixation on pieces of film or paper that, in themselves, don't really mean much in reality.

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