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Old 30-03-2008, 10:24 PM   #1   [permalink]
NeneMaxwell195
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She, The Ultimate Weapon

OK I just watched the series and I absolutely hated it! (Not the same kinda of hate I have for BAD animes like "Space Adventure Cobra" or "A Wing Called Amnesia").

I hate it for the fact it seems to exist just to make you feel god awfull, it seems like it just kills everyone on the planet for no reason at all and does not give you any insight into anything.

You do not know who Japan is fighting or why, you do not know if they have any allies.

At the start the characters seem almost oblivious to the fact that there is even a war going on, then suddenly it is just like "Oh yeah we are at war with someone".

Chise is this "Ultimate Weapon" she is like a Nuclear Bomb wherever she goes destroying city after city, and yet she can not stop this invading army?

It is stated that the other 1/2 of the Earth id in ruins, and that the invading army is invading because they do not have anywhere else to go. Well what caused 1/2 the Earth to be ruined? Was is Chise during the war? Did a meatior hit the Earth? What was causeing all these natural disasters?

Just what exactly was Chise?

What was the giant spikey ball in the final battle, was it Chise?

If they knew the final battle would destroy all life on the planet why did they carry on fighting? Surely at some point someone would step in and say "enough is enough"?

Would it have been better if Chise was just killed? Japan would have easily lost then but atleast the human race would have survived.

Gah this series was worse than End of Evangelion! Infact I loved EoE, I liked the characters, I cried when they died. However with this series I genrally disliked the characters, they were far more anoying than Shinji ever was, I felt no real attachment to them and did not feel sad when they died, I was just angrily shouting/swearing at the screen asking "WHY!?! WHY?!?! WHY?!?!" and juts wanting to know why all life was being wiped out. Atleast with Evangelion I had some clues as to what to think and feel, even if it was as simple as saying "God leant his powers to a young boy and allowed him to judge the world", this series gives you nothing at all, you do not kow why anything is happening at all. I HATE THIS SERIES!

Having said that I am gonna sit through the OVA hoping it gives me some sort of answears! However I bet it just gives me more questions.
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Old 30-03-2008, 11:32 PM   #2   [permalink]
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Its been a while since the saw the anime, but I think maybe you're missing the point.

I also seem to recall that the other side of the planet wasnt in ruins as such..it was completely destroyed. As in, astronomical scale.

As for why Chise couldn't stop it, I think the enemy had units similar to her, or used enough conventional weapons.

Overall it was a pretty hard anime. Not one of the hardest because you knew it was being hard on you. It wasn't offering honey. It was offering the world being torn out from under you. Of watching unique individuals die or exist without understanding their signifigance or getting a break for it.

You watched Evangelion so let me try putting it this way. Eva is about destiny and heroes. About the fundamental and groundbreaking questions of reality.
She the Ultimate Weapon was about the individual NERV personnel & Tokyo 3 citizens crushed beneath the feet of the angels, murdered without mourners during the invasion of NERV HQ etc. About the countless billions who grew up expecting to use their 12-20 years of study and education, or not use it as the case may be..who were suddenly wiped out by an enormous flood when a couple of scientists somewhere decide to play god.

Put into that context, "She, The Ultimate Weapon" gains a bit of meaning. If every story is epic and grand and ends happily, they lose meaning.
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Old 31-03-2008, 08:05 AM   #3   [permalink]
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I understand that it is about the "normal" people but that does no excuse the fact that the series gives no explanation at all about anything happening.

OK We know that something devastated half of the earth. We do not know what, we can eliminate things such as nuclear war, super volcano's or meteors as they would leave the earth in a nuclear winter type situation. Now since I remember the weather patterns being fairly normal in the series, I think we can eliminate those scenarios.

Now lets just say that it does not matter, all we need to know is something nasty happened. Was it the result of war? Or was it what started the war? Or did Chise do it?

Well for now let us move on. 1/2 the planet has been devastated, lets say both American continents and some of Europe and Africa. This still leaves a lot of countries intact, Japan, Korea, China, Australia and Russia. Now surely if these people know something nasty has happened and that a lot of refugees would be coming to them they would take them in? Maybe not all of them but some?

Bah lets just forget this for now... All we really know is:

Japan is at war, the enemy outnumbers them vastly, however the enemy is not fighting them out of hate but because they need somewhere to live.

So why is Japan refusing this request? Why to the point where they are basically nuking there own cities, there own people to prevent the enemy from taking hold?

Now ok lets look at this, OK Tokyo has been wiped of the map, by a large, non-nuclear explosion, the area is still habitable. Why don't the enemy forces settle in these areas? There is no longer a Japanese presence there, it would be easy enough to set up refuge camps there, and the surrounding areas could still be used for farming. Surely this solves some of whatever the problem is?

Also the enemy is using weapons of war till the very end, therefore they must have production centres and bases where they operate from? If Japan is at war and losing ground each day, that means the enemey is gaining ground, the enemy must have cities and areas where the civilian populations live in relative peace and safety, maybe in China or Australia? If this is true then how come the final battle, over one small Japanese city would result in the total destruction of the human race/all life on the planet?

Surely it would have been better to surrender and live, than to keep fighting and die? It just seems to me that things would have been better if Chise did not exist. Towns like Tokyo would have been captured, Japan would have lost the war, but at least almost everyone would still be alive!

I see no strategic or military use for Chise, in terms of using her as a defensive weapon. It is like knowing an army is invading one of your own cities and using a nuclear weapon to defend it, well I am quite sure nobody is actually stupid enough to do that.

It would have been like America during the cold war, putting a nuke in the centre of every single city and then telling Russia that if they try to invade America they will set off all the nukes.

I just give up on this series it is horrible, it seems like it only exists to delibratly torture the viewer, it makes all the characters in the series suffer, to the point of extinction of all life on the planet, just to make the viewer feel horrible. I see no real point in this at all!
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Old 31-03-2008, 03:03 PM   #4   [permalink]
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You're selectively applying logic here. Chise disobeys the basic laws of physics, but you're worried about the political madness of 2 sides not seeking reconciliation?

People caught in the middle of war have no idea what is going on, or why politicians are making the choices they make. We as the viewer are used to getting a god's eye view of things. Intelligence reports etc. In the real world, a lot of that stuff is sealed for 30 years or buried. Like the "Loose lips sink ships" campaign, which was in part to prevent citizens from gathering their own intel and realising that the Germans were hitting the U.S coast. To an everyday citizen in say, France, during WW2, how confusing would it all be?

Put into cultural context, Japan suffered Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think those events would have impacted on the psyche of many people, even if their own exposure was reading about it long after the cities have been rebuilt.
To take it further, can you imagine what a Japanese peasant might have thought as they learned an entire city had been wiped off the map, and a day or two later, another one? After years of being bombed and napalmed and pushed back onto their little island. Of watching their numbers and prosperity dwindle to nothing. Yes, maybe they too would want to know whats going on. Would want to know why better choices weren't being made in regards to protecting the best interests of both sides. You as the viewer of that anime, might gain that appreciation, though its not given to you on a silver platter.

Don't take the anime literally. Just look at the facts. You've got people essentially struggling with human psychology in the midst of changing conditions. How people respond to peace, how they respond to war. Desensitisation to violence in the case of Chise. Loneliness, or a desire for relevance/meaning for other characters. It doesn't matter what the landscape looks like outside. It doesn't matter how it started. Truth is, we often don't even realise ourselves. We're still arguing over what started WW1. What matters is that hell is knocking and we're given an intimate view of how people answer that knock.
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Old 31-03-2008, 04:27 PM   #5   [permalink]
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Let us logically look at a recent war and the role the media plays in it. Ofcourse the obvious thing is to look at the Iraq War, how it stated and what the people thought, just briefly.

It started with the twin towers falling (Lets not get into politcal reason for the attack because they can be traced back to well before World War II, or conspiracy theories about letting it happen).

Basically the WTC was attacked, thanks to the media people around the world knew withing a few mins-couple of hours what was happening. They did not know who they were being attack by or why they were attacking but they knew it was happening.

Right away people wanted to know "Who, How and Why". Eventually it was revieled that Al-Quieda (spelling?) were likely behind the attacks. Some people did believe this, others did not, some called for revenge others wanted to find peacefull way to talk and stop such happening again.

Eventually, it was stated that Sadam had links to Al-Quieda and that he had WMD, we were told we may be going to war due to this, eben if it broke UN law. Many did not believe this, many protested and yet the war still happend.

Over time the war has devloped from a war with Al-Quieda to a civil war in Iraq.

The point I am trying to make here is that in the modern age, people know what is happening (thanks to the media) and have some idea as to why we are at war, aswell as there own opinions on the subject, if it is good or bad, right or wrong.

Yet in this series we are presented with none of this. It delibratly keeps you in the dark about everything, the world is ending and we are given no reason at all for it, we do not even here the characters in the series comment on it. It is like they are all sticking there heads in the sand and pretending nothing is happening.

From what little I have heard about the manga atleast it makes a little more sence, the world was at war, most places were in ruin but people were still alive, however Chise decides that all humans would be better off dead than living in a destoyed world and so goes and kills everyone. I might not agree with her choice and what she is doing but it is a slightly more realistic scenario which I can atleast understand.

What I do not understand here is how this 1 battle destroys all life on earth.

There is an army invading from somewhere, they have militry equipment, it must be being produced somewhere. The whole rest of the world can not be an army, there must be towns and cities belonging to the enemey which are populated by civilians. Those cities must be 1000's of miles away from the war.

I guess the real thing I am having trouble grasping is that some how, by the end of the series, everywhere else on earth was destroyed, except for this one small japanese town. And that somehow an army has survived this destruction and that everywhere else on Earth is 100% uninhabitable and so they have no choice but to head to this town if they want to live. Surely if things had gotten this drastic at this point people would step in and say enough is enough, we need to work together if we want the human race to survive. Hell if there are really so few humans left why couldn't they go settle in that other town we saw briefly towards the end of the series, sure it was in ruins but ou could still live there and rebuild.

I could even "Buy" the story, maybe just maybe, if it did not have the "Oh by the way everyone else on Earth is dead. You are the last living creature left on the planet" ending.

Im gonna stop here for now, as I just can't wrap all of this around my head right now, it all gets far to complicated.
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:04 AM   #6   [permalink]
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When you completely fucked up the opening, I decided the rest of your post wasn't worth reading more than skimming.

Iraq was more complicated than that. Far far more complicated. That is the problem here. There are bound to be a lot of Iraqi citizens (wtf made you think American citizens are the people 'caught up' in this?) who have no damn idea what is going on.
They will be more in the dark than you realise.
In the same way that many in Zimbabwe or Venezuela wont understand why their countries are being fucked up.
In the same way that many in America wont understand even 1 of the theories for why their currency is headed to the toilet.

We really do not have a birds eye view of any of the major wars. Look at the last election for USA president to see how divided people still are over Vietnam. If we had more sources of information for every war right back to Troy, we'd have the same confusion.
Thats the truth. Thats the ------- Illiad right there. That the world is mad, moreso during war.

You don't NEED the background. Thats what I'm trying to tell you. To the average villager or citizen in Japan, all that other ---- would not have mattered. You're talking about people who would self immolate rather than be taken prisoner. That is not the kind of logic we are used to.
Its not even about Japan. Not my point anyway.

If you knew what was going on, you could frame it. Put it into context and rest your soul. You watched Evangelion, didn't you notice how often Hideaki ------- Anno not only didn't bother to colour between the lines, but sometimes was too lazy to draw the goddamn lines? Of course, he saturates you with that ---- so you eventually click "ohhh, I'm not supposed to be able to frame this. Its deeeep mannn".
She, The Ultimate Weapon is a story of normal people in conditions that remove 'normal' from the equation. (Or to quote Pratchett "Trying to save X against a world gone mad"). Its not about a specific war, or tactics or technology. Its about a girl trying to be human but being tortured by her own humanity because of the (inhuman) things she must do.
Of course its anime so she has to be a cute girl, cyborg, high schooler.

As to the Iraq war..man, media really fucked your head on that one. I was one of the most rabid supporters for that and when the yellowcake thing came up I was scratching my head wondering why it got so much airtime. I remember the state of the union address in 2003. I remember plastic shredders, videos of the sons publicly whipping people, Iron maidens, rape cards etc. I do recall some stuff about chem labs on rails and that sort of thing, but I was of the understanding that the goal was to PRE EMPTIVELY STRIKE TO PREVENT A THREAT FROM ARISING.
In other words, I didn't actually believe Saddam was sitting on nukes. I don't want to deny thinking he might have bio or chem weapons because I'm sure I expected them to find quite a bit of that sort of thing (and they did, just on the scale of horrificly insanely vile and bad, they tended to be at the bad end).
For me, the major justification for hitting Iraq revolved around the above mentioned torture, stuff about Kurds and mass graves. WMDs was there but more of a "what if they got em?" sort of thing. Oh and a "why wont they let us inspect without playing games?".
Personally I think thats far worse. Finding no WMDs is a pretty big oops, but throwing the nation into the grinder to prevent mass graves is..considerably worse.
I expect the causes for invasion will continue to be debated, perhaps even longer than the Vietnam debate. Although like the Vietnam debate, Depression debate, etc the common people will settle on an explanation regardless of truth.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:52 AM   #7   [permalink]
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Ack! Atleast read all my post, I read all of yours. Also I am not American by the way and I never believed the govornment story about why we were going to war, asfar as I was concerned the US and UK were breaking international law and that made the leaders of those countries war crimminals, however that was not the real point of the post so lets drop it.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that in modern times, with the large amounts of near instant media coverage in the western world people are a lot more informed about things.

Now I am quite sure that the average civilian in She, The Ultimate Weapon knew who they were at war with and reasons as to why. However we are never presented with this information. I guess the writers reasons behind this are "That is not something they need to know, it is not the story I am trying to tell".

However like I said, from what I have read about the manga, it is atleast a little more clear as to what is happening, I can get my head around it and make some sence of it. With the anime the delibratly keep you in the dark.

Now to someone with my way of looking at things, I do not think I can ever understand or appreciate this story. I have studied history and science, this has made my brain ask all these types of questions, if I didn't I would be bad at those subjects. The point is I really can not understand the story which is trying to be told about the characters, untill I understand a little bit about the world in which they live.

Again I would not have such a major problem with the series if I atleast knew how the entire worlds population was reduced to one small Japanese town and the army invading it. If this were the case why would an army invade in the 1st place it would have no food or suplies and also a choice of almost anywhere to choose to settle and live, even if 1/2 of the Earths surface were obliterated.

If they just droped the whole "Oh by the way EVERYONE is dead" ending, then I would be able to accept the series or if they want the whole EVERYONE is dead ending atleast give some explanation as to why like the manga did. Also from what I understand, the Live Action movie droped the whole "End of the World" scenario I am guessing because the knew it was not a nescisarry part of the story.

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Old 01-04-2008, 05:11 AM   #8   [permalink]
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Well I had my own reservations about it at the time and sadly its been too long for me to judge how well the message carried across. I think that I may have complained that the use of global annihilation and slaughter of all characters was a cheap emotional spicing to cover up a fairly mediocre set of stories.
But I can't find any reviews or comments from me about it at all and I don't feel like watching it again.

But I think you're missing the point.
I also think that you way way overestimate current information dissemination. Its better than it has been, but the fog of war over Iraq was thick.
It wasnt a lack of information, more of an over-abundance of the kind of information you got when Katrina hit New Orleans.
You know, rapes in the stadium, that sort of thing.
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Old 01-04-2008, 09:20 AM   #9   [permalink]
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Thinking about it I think the kind of story trying to be told here is similar to that of "Voices of a Distant Star" but VoaDS does it 100x better.

Incase you have not seen is VoaDS is a short love story of a young couple seperated by war. A young woman goes off to war whilst the young man stays at home.

The earth fighting an unknown enemy on another planet, they send there only fleet to said planet but on the way stop off along the Moon, Mars, Pluto and eventually the alien planet, this is all over the course of about 1 month.

At each stop the young woman sends a text message via her mobile phone to her lover. To her this appears to happen over the period of a few days.

What you have to realise though is the distances involved, the first text message arrives after a few seconds, the 2nd a few mins, then days, months and finally sevral years. So what are to her texts a few days apart to him are texts that are years apart.

What you eventually realise is, that had she survived, had the humans been sucessfull in there battle, she would have arrived back home on Earth before her texts would have.

So what you have is a young man in love waiting for his girl to come home, waiting for those text messages, whilst at the same time knowing that she is dead and that she never will return.

However she did survive the battle, the only human to do so, and so she lands her mech on the Alien planet, not knowing what will happen and so it ends.

It is a tragic and sad end for both characters, however the story is brilliant and very clever and the characters are very likeable, your really do get the feeling they are in love and just want to be with each other.

This story actually touched me and made me cry, unlike She, The Ultimate Weapon which just had my shouting angrily at my TV Screen.
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:35 PM   #10   [permalink]
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I dont consider the stories to be really the same thing. I have seen vods, an interesting thing about it (iirc, too lazy to google) was it was made by 1 man. Or 1 computer or something. When I first saw it, I knew that and figured it was a proof or a project or something because it wasn't quite polished enough.

I was quite surprised when I saw it licensed and for sale in stores.


Another example of an anime where people might be looking at the wrong thing, is Argento Soma. The anime isn't really about fighting space aliens.
Kinda like neither is Evangelion (which is about looking on the bright side or some ----).
Just that Hollywood has trained us to expect great action sequences and crap. If you make a movie like "The Thin Red Line" people complain that "There is hardly any war in it. 'Saving Private Ryan' was better!".
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:35 PM   #11   [permalink]
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I've heard about this Saikano anime, but never watched it. From this thread and by reading the plot on a website, it seems like the focus of the story is on the Chise-Shuji relationship, rather than on details about the external circumstances they find themselves in.

It sounds like: Viewers, here is a small, shy high school girl who dates some laconic high school boy. Hang on a minute, the girl is actually a walking god-like hydrogen bomb with the capacity to kill the whole of humanity. Fucking hell. What a gigantic, discontinuous leap from reality into fantasy. I hope they added sufficient details to explain the whys and hows, but from this thread, it seems like they've left the context of the conflict at the bottom of the pile. On paper, the overall plot seems to me like a stupidly contrived love for life VS kill all life scenario.

Having said that, Saikano might be interesting, but the young boy/girl with capacity to destroy/save the universe theme is getting far too old.

And a live version - WTF? Did they take a small, shy high school girl and stick metal wings on her back or something?

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Old 02-04-2008, 05:19 AM   #12   [permalink]
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hmm, if I'm going to describe it in a completely reckless way I'd go thus:

Cyborg girl with no attachment to physics, grows at an exponential rate, loses her humanity, and pines for boyfriend that is cheating on her...then destroys everything..uh..
no, I give up.

Just go watch Gunslinger girl.
Or Akira.
Or Evangelion.

Then watch Peach Girl.
Then shoot yourself for having seen Peach Girl.

experience complete.
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Old 02-04-2008, 05:30 PM   #13   [permalink]
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Hay John since your in the UK too I will say that you can get the box set for 15 in HMV, that is where I got it.

I actually would like to know EVAFiends opinion on the series, she normally makes a lot of sence when talking about things like this.
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Old 02-04-2008, 05:49 PM   #14   [permalink]
John Faulkner
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Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Cyborg girl with no attachment to physics, grows at an exponential rate, loses her humanity, and pines for boyfriend that is cheating on her...then destroys everything..uh..
no, I give up.
Shuji cheats on Chise? Just because a person happens to be a divine, city-vaporising genocide machine is no reason to hook up with another girl behind that person's back (or wings in this case). Bastard.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Then watch Peach Girl.
Then shoot yourself for having seen Peach Girl.
From Wikipaedia:

Quote:
"Peach Girl is a high school drama centered on Momo Adachi. A member of the swim team, Momo tans easily and her hair is bleached out; unfortunately, she is stereotyped as a ganguro girl by her ignorant classmates, and is forced to endure rumors about being a beach bunny and a slut. Her only friend is Sae, who is actually responsible for spreading the nasty gossip. Momo is in love with Toji, a taciturn baseball player, but the scheming Sae also has her eye on the boy. Momo's life is further complicated with the introduction of Kairi Okayasu, a wise-cracking playboy who is determined to make her his because she had saved him from drowning the summer before high school started."
Sounds .... interesting.
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Old 02-04-2008, 05:55 PM   #15   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by NeneMaxwell195
Hay John since your in the UK too I will say that you can get the box set for 15 in HMV, that is where I got it.
I might check it out sometime - just got to find some spare time first.

Originally Posted by NeneMaxwell195
I actually would like to know EVAFiends opinion on the series, she normally makes a lot of sence when talking about things like this.
She's been MIA for a long time, much like 99.99% of the AB population. Only way to reawaken this forgotten army, IMO, is to make changes as per the administrator's suggestions in that AB Revival thread.
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