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Old 30-06-2009, 07:42 PM   #1   [permalink]
John Faulkner
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Is Pokemon More Mature than the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya?

This thread is a spin-off from a discussion I was having about the maturity of Haruhi. Specifically, the question arose as to how mature it is, and I am struggling to see why it is even as mature as Pokemon. Some elaboration here is in order, and is as follows:

1. Haruhi is set in high school, whereas Pokemon sees the three original protagonists (Ash, Misty and Brock) travelling through many varied locations, such as forests, beaches, casinos, large cities, mysterious deserted towns, towers, volcanoes ... the list goes on. This rich variety of settings expands the mind of the audience and gives a fresh outlook on life outside the confined, stuffy environment of high school.

2. Haruhi does not seem to have any non-human characters. In contrast, Pokemon has a catalogue of creatures that are often based on real-life animals (e.g. Arbok - Cobra). Thus, Pokemon, in stark contrast to Haruhi, highlights the biodiversity of life and reminds the viewer that we share the Earth with other creatures. In addition, the protagonists regularly highlight how fragile these creatures can be when man (e.g., Team Rocket) intervenes. Furthermore, Pokemon evolve and this gives a nice introduction to the concept of Darwinian evolution, and how this has shaped the array of wonderful creatures alive today. The animal aspect of Pokemon gives a holistic story that educates the viewers in a remarkably mature way.

3. Ms. Suzumiya is an egocentric, spoilt brat who dresses up in a bunny suit in a shameful attention-seeking stunt. Thus, Haruhi appears to implicitly endorse the repugnant me-me-me (hey look, I'm so interesting!) attitude that is so prevalent in modern society. Mr. Ketchum, on the other hand, is seen to be a paradigm of virtue. He is always thinking of his Pokemon and of helping other people, and has a strong sense of justice. For example, he let Butterfree go because it found its true love, even though this broke his heart. In addition, in one episode, he was willing to brave a hellishly cold night in an igloo alone, and told his Pokemon to go into their Pokeballs for warmth. Eventually, the Pokemon came out and they suffered together - a remarkable scene of true, sincere friendship and raw guts. Also recall Ash's willingness to help total strangers - for example, a Samurai who had lost all his badges ("I will forever be in your debt" - heartwarming words indeed).

Now admittedly, I have not experienced Haruhi first-hand, so I would appreciate if someone who has is able to make the case for it; otherwise, I am just baffled at why young adults like this show so much, given its apparent lack of maturity. My arguments appear to give strong evidence that Pokemon is far more mature in terms of both characters and story. And I have even more arguments should that be needed.

Last edited by John Faulkner; 01-07-2009 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 03:07 AM   #2   [permalink]
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Talking about unbiased view, you have none of it.

How about watching Haruhi and then come back to delete this silly thread please, talking about Haruhi won't do the serie justice anyway.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:06 PM   #3   [permalink]
John Faulkner
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Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Talking about unbiased view, you have none of it.
Why am I biased? As far as I can see, I've drawn logical conclusions based on facts about the Pokemon anime. What points do you disagree on? Have you actually seen Pokemon?

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
How about watching Haruhi and then come back to delete this silly thread please, talking about Haruhi won't do the serie justice anyway.
I've read the wiki entry on Haruhi and it's not something I would watch voluntarily. So it would be great, Takahashi, if you could at least try and make a case for it being more mature than Pokemon. That way, we can have an interesting and stimulating discussion. I'm always willing to learn more about why Haruhi is so popular .
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Old 02-07-2009, 11:09 AM   #4   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by John Faulkner View Post
Why am I biased? As far as I can see, I've drawn logical conclusions based on facts about the Pokemon anime. What points do you disagree on? Have you actually seen Pokemon?
Answer to that question is right there in the second sentence, which you quoted. Knocking something based on the setting without ever watching is not what I call unbiased
I've read the wiki entry on Haruhi and it's not something I would watch voluntarily. So it would be great, Takahashi, if you could at least try and make a case for it being more mature than Pokemon. That way, we can have an interesting and stimulating discussion. I'm always willing to learn more about why Haruhi is so popular .
I have 2 nephews who loves pokemon to death, so I think I had my fare shared of pokemon. I use to play the pokemon game, so I know a fare share of the settings it is in.

If you have ever seen pokemon, which I doubt, there is barely any plot in it except they train, they catch and they fight. In between they throw in some stupid running joke which get old real fast. You say they bring in darwinian theory of evolutions, but they failed to mention how or why pokemon instantly evolved, I mean it is anime so I won't argue the implausible instant evolutions, but atleast explain it, then again who would expect little four year olds to understand thus why bother explaining it at all.

Then you say Haruhi does not have non human character, but you never questions kids running around without parental guidance catching flame throwing dragons, giant snakes, electricfying mices. Nor do you questions how Ash or any of the humans character allways sacrifice themselves to protect said dangerous creatures, who can perfectly protect themselves, I mean they did grow up in the wild. And on the subject how about pokemon rights, If our society is so against having dogs and cock fights, wtf are kids doing holding little fight to the death fights with dangerous pets(have you played the game, I killed plenty of pokemons just to catch 1 of each kind).

Why you should watch Haruhi, well I don't really care. I liked it cause it was random, funny, with serious issues that has not been adressed before, I couldn't care less if it was set in a highschool or at some random pokemon arena. Pokemon is repetitive and boring, same sh!t in a new suit everytime is not what I call mind challenging fun.
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Old 02-07-2009, 09:55 PM   #5   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Answer to that question is right there in the second sentence, which you quoted. Knocking something based on the setting without ever watching is not what I call unbiased
I've read about the storyline of Haruhi, so I have got at least an idea of what it is about. My initial analysis focused more on Pokemon because I am more familiar with it, but also tried to draw conclusions about Haruhi based on facts. In addition, I explicitly stated that my analysis would benefit from arguments from someone who has watched Haruhi. Thus, overall, I'm not certain yet that Haruhi is less mature than Pokemon, which is why I framed the issue as a question (see thread title). However, I think there are good reasons why Pokemon could be more mature, and by detailing these reasons, I hope to stimulate a really good discussion. And a good discussion is what we're having right now. .

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
I have 2 nephews who loves pokemon to death, so I think I had my fare shared of pokemon. I use to play the pokemon game, so I know a fare share of the settings it is in.
But have you actually sat through episodes of the Pokemon anime and paid attention to it, as opposed to just glancing at the TV when it is on? If not, then you may well miss the finer points of the storyline. Also, the plot in the Pokemon anime is vastly superior to that in the game, so playing the game does not give a good indication of the quality of the anime.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
If you have ever seen pokemon, which I doubt, there is barely any plot in it except they train, they catch and they fight. In between they throw in some stupid running joke which get old real fast.
Why do you doubt that I've seen it? . I've seen all episodes in the first 2 series of Pokemon, most episodes in series 3 and some episodes in the later series. How many episodes have you seen?

I must take exception to your claim that there is barely any plot in the 1st series of Pokemon. I agree that the later series became repetitive, but the 1st series had a really good variety that cannot simply be characterised as "train, catch and fight". I will give you 5, that's right, 5 specific examples from just the first 21 episodes:

1. Episode 1: Pokemon, I Choose You!. Ash Ketchum becomes a Pokemon trainer. However, when the day comes for him to choose his first Pokemon from Professor Oak's lab, he wakes up late and the only Pokemon left was a disobedient Pikachu. This twist of fate sets up a complex relationship between Ash and Pikachu for the rest of the episode; Pikachu's erstwhile faux hatred for Ash turns into respect and admiration when Ash risked his life to try and save Pikachu. Solid plotline here that establishes the intrinsic bond between man and beast.

2. Episode 4: Showdown in Pewter City. Ash is scheduled to fight Brock, one of the gym leaders which he has to defeat to earn a badge. However, this is no simple, brainless fight to the death. This is an episode about social necessity, about how Brock has to care for his little brothers and sisters after his good for nothing dad left them. The emotional complexity in this episode is laid bare when Ash, with a heavy conscience, struggled in his heart to defeat Brock, having learnt of Brock's social condition. In a well-structured plot, Brock's dad helps Ash to defeat his own dear son and reveals himself in a Darth Vader-like moment at the end. Ironically, Brock's enmity for his father dissipates as he learns that his father is willing to burden himself with caring for the Brock household, allowing Brock the freedom to traverse the world and achieve his dreams.

3. Episode 11: Charmander – The Stray Pokemon. Ash, Misty and Brock chance upon a stray Charmander, a fire-breathing Pokemon akin to a salamander. They left it alone, but whilst recuperating in a lodge, they heard a trainer brag about leaving a Charmander behind because it was too weak. In an incredible scene where justice coursed through Brock's veins, Brock went up to this trainer and physically man-handled him while giving him a verbal ear-bashing. As Brock notes, the stray Charmander was in severe danger of dying and the rest of the episode focussed on how the protagonists braved the cold night to rescue Charmander and bring it to the hospital for convalescence. A powerful story.

4. Episodes 15 and 16: Battle Aboard the St. Anne and Pokťmon Shipwreck. This action-packed 2-parter details a bungled operation by Team Rocket operatives (not just Jessie and James) on board a luxury cruise-ship. But this is no superficial episode. During the chaos of the Team Rocket heist, a violent storm strikes and the ship capsizes! In an outstanding plot twist, the protagonists have to work with the antagonists (Jessie, James and Meowth) to escape the capsized ship, forming an intriguing temporary truce. When they succeed in reaching the water's surface and onto a raft, they are all struck by a hurricane-like force generated by a Pokemon, sending them spinning into the air. This concludes episode 16, leaving the viewer in total suspense as to whether anyone survives. In the background, there is a subtle sub-plot whereby Ash deliberates and cogitates on whether to swap his Butterfree for a Rattata. He eventually does, but after a touching montage of heart-felt memories of Butterfree, he decides to undo the swap. Ironically, this made Ash and friends miss the window for escaping the ship with the other passengers. Brilliant scripting which betrays a surprising sense of intelligence.

5. Episode 21: Bye Bye Butterfree. This is possibly the episode that confirms the maturity of the first series of Pokemon. Showing true compassion, Ash helps Butterfree find its true love, even though he knows deep down that Butterfree will have to leave him afterwards. In a gut-wrenching scene at the end of this episode, Ash fights back tears of despair as he thinks back to cherished memories of Butterfree's life, from caterpillar to a fully developed butterfly. Emotion at its best.

And I haven't mentioned the underlying plot of Ash travelling the world to hone his skills and earn badges to partake in the Pokemon League competition at the end of the series, or his trials and tribulations in the competition, including how he overcame nerves and self-doubt in a night of depression. This continuity in the series serves to give the characters a real history. I haven't even mentioned the heart-twisting episode where Ash threatens to desert Pikachu apparently for its own good, the dramatic departure of Brock, the enigma of MewTwo in the context of an anthropocentric world and Ash's lesson in humility during the Pokemon League.

So Takahashi, you still think Pokemon barely has any plot?

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
You say they bring in darwinian theory of evolutions, but they failed to mention how or why pokemon instantly evolved, I mean it is anime so I won't argue the implausible instant evolutions, but atleast explain it, then again who would expect little four year olds to understand thus why bother explaining it at all.
Pokemon evolve when they have experienced and survived enough battles. This alludes to the idea that animals which are most fit are best suited to survive and pass on their genes to the next generation, resulting in evolution. In addition, Pokemon can evolve through the use of stones; this has parallels to a random mutation that leads to phenotypic variation which aids in the evolutionary arms arce. Thus, although the anime portrays evolution as instant for the sake of simplification, it subtly alludes to sound genetic theory.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Then you say Haruhi does not have non human character, but you never questions kids running around without parental guidance catching flame throwing dragons, giant snakes, electricfying mices.
a) Ash never catches a flame-throwing dragon; instead he nurtures a flame-throwing salamander that grows up to be a dragon. This fosters an emotional bond that is conducive to the safety of the trainer, especially since the salamander was treated well. Furthermore, Ash is accompanied by Brock, an older trainer, and has the guidance of his mentor Professor Oak.

b) Ash never catches a giant snake; only Jessie of Team Rocket, an adult, has a giant snake.

c) Pikachu, the electrifying mouse, and Ash have a mutual respect for each other after Ash put his life on the line for Pikachu in the first episode. This mutual bond ensures Ash is never in danger from Pikachu.

d) The episodes point to the fact that if you treat Pokemon with respect, they will return the favour.

e) Kids forming relationships with Pokemon shows the viewer that a relationship with nature early on in life can have profoudly beneficial effects.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Nor do you questions how Ash or any of the humans character allways sacrifice themselves to protect said dangerous creatures, who can perfectly protect themselves, I mean they did grow up in the wild.
I agree that Pokemon can defend themselves, but not if a Pokemon is out-numbered. For example, Pikachu was completely at the mercy of a flock of wild Spearows and required the intervention of Ash to carry it to safety in episode 1. In episode 4, Charmander was in real danger of dying from the cold and from Spearows (the devil's bird). Also, Pokemon are not dangerous creatures to humans if one treats them with respect, and this parallels the real world in a remarkable way.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
And on the subject how about pokemon rights, If our society is so against having dogs and cock fights, wtf are kids doing holding little fight to the death fights with dangerous pets(have you played the game, I killed plenty of pokemons just to catch 1 of each kind).
Sure, I've played the game, but again, the anime is different from the game. No Pokemon has been shown to die in the anime; battles only last until a Pokemon can clearly no longer continue, and this could be because it is sleeping under the influence of sleeping powder. I would agree that the Pokemon-human relationship is very interesting in that it can easily be seen as justifying the human domination of animals. Yet the mutual respect seen in the anime suggests a more balanced relationship akin to that seen in conservation.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Why you should watch Haruhi, well I don't really care. I liked it cause it was random, funny, with serious issues that has not been adressed before,
What serious issues did Haruhi address and how are they more serious than the issues addressed in Pokemon? Furthermore, does Haruhi deal with serious issues to the same depth as Pokemon?

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
I couldn't care less if it was set in a highschool or at some random pokemon arena.
But that's just a strawman argument - the Pokemon anime is set in many varied locations, not just Pokemon arenas. I've pointed this out in my first post.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Pokemon is repetitive and boring, same sh!t in a new suit everytime is not what I call mind challenging fun.
When you look at the first series of Pokemon critically with reference to specific episodes, as I have done, it is far from clear that Pokemon is repetitive and boring. If you think it is repetitive and boring, how do you explain the variety of plotlines I've highlighted above for just the first 21 episodes and the raw emotions shown in the episodes?

Last edited by John Faulkner; 04-07-2009 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 03-07-2009, 03:51 AM   #6   [permalink]
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I'm not talking about ash nor brock specifically, I say in general what I have seen is disturbing. Brock is barely a year or 2 older than ash, that professor never ever travels around with them(don't quote me on that haven't seen all of the episodes, but everytime I see them its a bunch of kids backpacking through the wilderness without guidance), the only support they had are nurses and cops with the same faces and same name in the same places, with different uniforms and hairdo's, looking like they are little kids themselves.
Also you clearly have not seen evolved raichu's(or any other evolved form of other types of pokemon) on their travel, that waterdragon that capsized their boat, nor the numerous legendary pokemons who are much more powerfull then charizards, there are definately some powerfull animals in the wild that you failed to mentions, which are no doubt lethal. Then again it is a juvenile serie so nobody ever dies, they are merely incapacitated, would have made the game much easier if that was true.
If pokemon evolve through evolutions, then why does that stupid rat never evolve, not even in the latest series on tv, which they finally dumps that annoying misty, by theory that rat got into more fights and had the most experience since its used almost everytime in the first 2 seasons.
Those plot you mentions is nothing new or fresh, just very childish versions of it, how their supposed to be struggling about some serious decission, but in reality an adult would have just beaten brock into submission cause thats what we do, we want to win, all that sappy family stuff should be left outside of the arena. Sure pokemons deals with a lot of trainers-animals bonding, but then these relationships turns sour and I have seen charizard very often gave ash the burn, but he seems to be impervious to any attack, I think ash should be the one fighting if he can take so much pain.
You say there are different settings, but all I can see is the same terrains over and over again, forest-> haruhi camping trip, sea-> haruhi trip to the beach, city-> Haruhi made home video movie etc. again this can be found in any anime, they keep saying different places and different dojos but they all looks the same after a few episodes. Not to say that there isn't any variations or originality in the story its just so few and far from each other.

To name a few things haruhi did, cause I don't have a very good memory, just the moments that makes me giggle, don't even ask for which episodes cause its pretty random.
When the SOS brigade needed computers, haruhi barge into the science club, manipulate them into a contest and then beat them and took their computer as prize.
Later she needs something from them and she somehow blackmailed them into doing her bidding. Giving them a dried up kappa in return.
Mikuru the time traveller, is a very shy person, so haruhi tried to drag her out of her shell by dressing her into embarassing costumes, each time more embarassing then the last and eventually she warms up to the group.
The bunny suits was haruhi's way of trying to attracts new members, she abandonned that idea really quick though.
Nagato the information alien beign, seems to live outside of our dimensions, knows almost everything but could not comprehend Haruhi so they manifest her into some girl of haruhi's age to observe her, since nagato is not human she never aged, could travel through time and is aware of the time traveller before she arrives.
It doesn't sound good cause mere words could not describe haruhi, you have to see it to experience the randomness, its the same as me saying I have never seen pokemon but from the description of some random website that said its about raising, training and fighting with a little mouse, would I really want to see it too?
Just give it a try, think out of the box, if by any chance you still hated it, then I apologise for wasting your time, atleast you get the respect from some random person on the internet for trying. Instead of listening to someone who tells you it sucks, atleast you can say it sucks cause you think it sucks.

ps. watch atleast the first 5 episodes.
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Old 03-07-2009, 04:25 AM   #7   [permalink]
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Taka, John is a troll.

John your comparison is superficial. Who cares about the scenery? Lots of artists have managed to convey enormous ideas in very restricted environments. A child would get bored and go play pokemon before trying to nut out Suzumiya Haruhi. That is enough to explain a difference in demographics. The rewards at the end of the day are the same provided the individuals watching each are enjoying what they're watching. It certainly isn't an anime designed to upend your life.

For my own part, I was a part of the swarm who went straight for Pokemon red when it came out. It was entertaining and interesting. I even briefly played the card game. I don't really think the franchise has been well looked after though. They basically do the same thing but in colour with a differently named character and occasionally add a few pokemon.
TV show was only interesting as a plugin for the game. Never saw the movies (at the time I wish I had though).
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Old 03-07-2009, 04:44 PM   #8   [permalink]
John Faulkner
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Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Brock is barely a year or 2 older than ash,
Ash was 10 at the start of series 1 and although Brock's age is never revealed in the series, his much stronger physique and superior mental aptitude places him near 16. So you're a bit off here.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
that professor never ever travels around with them(don't quote me on that haven't seen all of the episodes, but everytime I see them its a bunch of kids backpacking through the wilderness without guidance),
An old man like Professor Oak would only hinder the team; it is wise that Oak only offers sage advice from afar. Remember that not only has Ash got a hotline to Oak, he has his Pokedex and his two friends Misty and Brock. Recall that Brock has years of experience looking after younger children - he's a mean cook and he's the sort of person who can tough it out in a fight. So Ash and Misty are in safe hands. Also, are you forgetting that they have their Pokemon to help them out in times of need (e.g., Bulbasaur saving Ash from falling off a cliff in Episode 22, "Abra and the Psychic Showdown").

So Pokemon's not about a bunch of kids walking about randomly - it's about 3 adventurers who take calculated risks to pursue their dreams together. That is an incredibly mature theme relevant to real life and highlights the protagonists' courage and determination.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
the only support they had are nurses and cops with the same faces and same name in the same places, with different uniforms and hairdo's, looking like they are little kids themselves.
Officer Jenny and Nurse Joy don't particularly look like little kids - more like people in their early 20's.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Also you clearly have not seen evolved raichu's(or any other evolved form of other types of pokemon) on their travel, that waterdragon that capsized their boat, nor the numerous legendary pokemons who are much more powerfull then charizards, there are definately some powerfull animals in the wild that you failed to mentions, which are no doubt lethal. Then again it is a juvenile serie so nobody ever dies, they are merely incapacitated, would have made the game much easier if that was true.
The Raichu they met in Episode 69, "Lights, Camera, Quack-tion!", was a very tame one. The other Raichu they met was kept under strict control by gym leader Lt. Serge and posed no threat to Ash and co. The water-dragon, Gyarados, only seemed to get mad because it was previously mistreated by James of Team Rocket as a Magikarp. The legendary Pokemon in the anime were not threatening to humans at all; quite the opposite - for example, Moltres actually saved Ash's life by dealing a palpable blow to Team Rocket (Episode 74, "All Fired Up!"). Again, Takahashi, the underlying theme is that if you treat Pokemon with respect, you are in no danger at all. This is a really powerful message for humans in relation to the fragile biosphere.

Also, it is true that nothing dies in Pokemon, but the point is that in the series, humans and Pokemon are capable of dying. For example, in the shipwreck episode, Jessie and James nearly drowned and in the Charmander episode, Charmander nearly died and Brock explicitly said it was in danger of dying. I'd agree that Pokemon would be much more powerful if a few characters died, and I would certainly have included a few deaths.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
If pokemon evolve through evolutions, then why does that stupid rat never evolve, not even in the latest series on tv, which they finally dumps that annoying misty, by theory that rat got into more fights and had the most experience since its used almost everytime in the first 2 seasons.
Takahashi, you should never underestimate the complexity of the first series of Pokemon. Pikachu actually had the chance to evolve in Episode 11, "Electric Shock Showdown". The story is as told: Pikachu was brutalized by Lt. Serge's Raichu and Ash wanted Pikachu to evolve to a Raichu using a thunder stone. But Pikachu slapped the thunder stone out of Ash's hand and proceeded to give a Martin Luther King-esque speech on how it was proud to be a Pikachu - indeed, proud to fight in the name of all Pikachus. You see, it was Pikachu's free will that meant it did not evolve, and this touches on the red hot philosophical debate on free will VS determinism.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Those plot you mentions is nothing new or fresh, just very childish versions of it, how their supposed to be struggling about some serious decission, but in reality an adult would have just beaten brock into submission cause thats what we do, we want to win, all that sappy family stuff should be left outside of the arena.
Beating Brock into submission is an incredibly short-sighted and immature decision, because if Ash had done that, then he would never have got Brock as a travelling companion. This once again highlights the maturity and intelligent decision-making of Ash.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Sure pokemons deals with a lot of trainers-animals bonding, but then these relationships turns sour and I have seen charizard very often gave ash the burn, but he seems to be impervious to any attack, I think ash should be the one fighting if he can take so much pain.
Charizard is the only Pokemon which openly disobeyed Ash on a regular basis, but even this mighty fire-breathing beast proved its worth in the second series, being instrumental to Ash's win in the Orange League. In fact, the time it takes Ash to win over Charizard shows how it is necessary sometimes in life to show patience in order to achieve your goals and how fortitude can reap huge benefits where impatience would have left one with bitter failure. Also, Charizard knows that Ash is a kind-hearted person, so only gives him light burns that do not leave physical scars.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
You say there are different settings, but all I can see is the same terrains over and over again, forest-> haruhi camping trip, sea-> haruhi trip to the beach, city-> Haruhi made home video movie etc. again this can be found in any anime, they keep saying different places and different dojos but they all looks the same after a few episodes. Not to say that there isn't any variations or originality in the story its just so few and far from each other.
Ah, good! Haruhi also has some different settings. However, let us list the different settings in the two anime:

Haruhi
High school
Forest
Beach
City

Pokemon
Forest
Beach
City
Volcano
Polar region
Cave
Cruise ship out at sea
Port
Power plant
Boxing/MMA ring
Race course
Pokemon stadia
Swimming centre
Hospital
Police station
Village
Perfume shop
Lodge
Lighthouse
Fair
River bed
Dojo
Safari park
Mansion
Park
Festival
Ash's house
Research lab
Cinema
Ancient ruins
Casino
Shopping centre

So you still think Haruhi has more diverse settings? The facts don't support that at all.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
To name a few things haruhi did, cause I don't have a very good memory, just the moments that makes me giggle, don't even ask for which episodes cause its pretty random.
Well, the thread topic isn't about which anime was funnier, but which one is more mature, and I'm only seeing one winner at the moment, and its name begins with P.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
When the SOS brigade needed computers, haruhi barge into the science club, manipulate them into a contest and then beat them and took their computer as prize.
Sounds like a typical high-school prank.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Later she needs something from them and she somehow blackmailed them into doing her bidding. Giving them a dried up kappa in return.
Again, sounds pretty juvenile.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Mikuru the time traveller, is a very shy person, so haruhi tried to drag her out of her shell by dressing her into embarassing costumes, each time more embarassing then the last and eventually she warms up to the group.
So Haruhi forces Mikuru to do something against her will and furthermore, totally embarrasses her by coercing her into silly outfits? That may be funny, but mature? I don't think so. You will never see Ash, Misty or Brock doing that.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
The bunny suits was haruhi's way of trying to attracts new members, she abandonned that idea really quick though.
She's a bit of an ego-maniac, isn't she! . Plus, I bet the makers included a bunny suit just for the fan service.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Nagato the information alien beign, seems to live outside of our dimensions, knows almost everything but could not comprehend Haruhi so they manifest her into some girl of haruhi's age to observe her, since nagato is not human she never aged, could travel through time and is aware of the time traveller before she arrives.
See, this is what I don't get. This sort of plotline does not seem to have any relation to reality at all, and just seems to be a fantasy scenario designed to give laughs (of the high-school variety). How is some alien from another dimension causing trouble in high-school mature in any way, shape or form?

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
It doesn't sound good cause mere words could not describe haruhi, you have to see it to experience the randomness, its the same as me saying I have never seen pokemon but from the description of some random website that said its about raising, training and fighting with a little mouse, would I really want to see it too?
Yes, if you go to a random website, you may think that Pokemon is immature. But I've detailed very carefully why it is much more than training and fighting with some rodent. I've shown that the series touches on so many aspects of real life and by virtue of that, gives a good sense of maturity.

Now can you do the same as I have done for Pokemon, but for Haruhi? Can you demonstrate once and for all that it has maturity?

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Just give it a try, think out of the box, if by any chance you still hated it, then I apologise for wasting your time, atleast you get the respect from some random person on the internet for trying. Instead of listening to someone who tells you it sucks, atleast you can say it sucks cause you think it sucks.

ps. watch atleast the first 5 episodes.
If you can convince me that Haruhi is more mature than Pokemon, than I will definitely consider watching it. .

However, you haven't quite done that yet - you have shown that Haruhi may be funny in a high-school humour kind of way, but you have not made a strong case for its maturity.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
Taka, John is a troll.
Pengi, Taka and I were having a nice on-topic discussion and you just jump in and call me a troll? What in the world is that all about!? Is it not enough for you that various people here have labelled me a fuckwit, a douchebag, a nerd, an a-hole, as self-righteous, as condescending, etc. etc.? Justify your label of me as a troll.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
John your comparison is superficial.
Why?

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
Who cares about the scenery?
I do and Pen2 seems to in that other thread. The environment sets the mood of the anime and sets boundaries as to what type of story and themes can be reasonably explored, as well as the type of characters that can be portrayed.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
Lots of artists have managed to convey enormous ideas in very restricted environments.
Give me examples of artists that have conveyed enormous ideas in a high school setting.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
A child would get bored and go play pokemon before trying to nut out Suzumiya Haruhi. That is enough to explain a difference in demographics. The rewards at the end of the day are the same provided the individuals watching each are enjoying what they're watching. It certainly isn't an anime designed to upend your life.
But you've simply avoided all my detailed arguments as to why Pokemon is more mature than Haruhi. At the end of the day, both series probably won't change your life, but the question is: which is more mature? At the moment, Pokemon is winning hands down.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
For my own part, I was a part of the swarm who went straight for Pokemon red when it came out. It was entertaining and interesting. I even briefly played the card game. I don't really think the franchise has been well looked after though. They basically do the same thing but in colour with a differently named character and occasionally add a few pokemon.
Yes, I agree that the Pokemon franchise just fizzled out because of a lack of originality. The newer Pokemon anime episodes were symptomatic of this deterioration in quality.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
TV show was only interesting as a plugin for the game. Never saw the movies (at the time I wish I had though).
The TV show was interesting also for its surprisingly in-depth plot (see above posts). The first movie was average at best, with the saving grace being a full-on Pokemon war reminiscent of real-life conflicts, set to a haunting song.

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Old 03-07-2009, 08:18 PM   #9   [permalink]
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I labelled you a troll because I can't imagine anyone actually trying to push Pokemon above Suzumiya Haruhi. It looks just like someone teasing fanboys and pushing the level of outrageousness just to see when the fanboy will catch on.

I believe your environment comparisons are superficial because almost no anime address actual environmental conditions. Few if any acknowledge the way extremely bright hot sun and dry air makes a person go through copious amounts of water. Few will address how sticky and unpleasant a highly humid environment is. Its all very much like you'll find in WoW: Characters never get cold (unless its a plot device), never get heatstroke etc. Simply changing the background on the scene does not make something more mature. MacBeth was pretty much set ENTIRELY in a castle, it did not need to go outside to make its point (aside from visiting the witches or whatever).

For anime that stay within high school but address big themes?

GTO (sometimes he is in the city, and it ends in Okinawa, the rest is all on schoolgrounds in his class or near his apartment).
Kare Kano - pretty much everything happened at school
Vampire Knight - not generally my type of anime, but another school based anime which had big plot arcs all set within school boundaries.


I can't really focus at the moment, but a lack of variation in environment is not immature so therefore a variation in environment is not mature. In fact, its childrens shows that will most often change location/scene because kids arent affected by wondering how they magically got there, why they're there, etc. Anime like Haibane Renmei deliberately restrict the environment.

I am thankful I saw the anime long after the show. I could not understand why Pikachu was his favourite, I didn't think much of the pokemon.
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Old 04-07-2009, 05:20 PM   #10   [permalink]
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Don't want to quote that long post, but in summary.
You are saying that pokemon is mature because it does not deal with death and people don't really get hurt, unless getting hurled through the skies almost every episodes is something we regularly do on a daily basis(just an example, I could have said electricfied, roast or whatever).

Like said before, you name all these places they visit but it rarely ever has any significance except for the pokemon that lives there. I do have to make a note, that it still is over the top that somehow a 10 year old, could walk to antarctic one day and spent another on expensive cruise with no parental guidance and not to mention how a simple small town boy could get the funding to travel around the world like that, let alone that a 10 year old would have never survived the antarctic or able to climb the top of some mountains, total disregards to reality for the sake of incorperating the scenery into the plot, tell me how mature is that. Atleast in Haruhi they tell kids that if you want something you have to work for it, in pokemon everything is given to you by awfully nice people. Then there is this very convenience handheld computer that would put a startrek tricorder to shame, talking about video conferencing(through satellites connections I bet cause they are connected anywhere on the planet), navigations, bio scanner, data recorder and tip of the iceberg it even has a library of all the pokemons, type, habitat,their evolutions and even their favorite food eventhough these pokemon were the reasons ash was supposed to investigate in the first place, why bother going out at all, the thing seems to be all knowing when it comes to pokemons.

And really now, pikachu choosing not to evolved into a more powerfull state, with better attacks and defense, what was the reasoning behind that, I would have dropped it like its hot. That is like so you can be superman but would you rather stay as clark kent and then choosing for the latter one. As a trainer I would have been thoroughly pissed.

You keep refuting that pokemon are not dangerous if you treat them right, that my friend is a very immature impression you got there of how the world should work, reality rarely works that way, this only happens in fantasy sugarcoated world where everybody lives happily ever after and even the dumbass badguys deserve some kind compassions. You can try and treat a stingray with the utmost respect, awe and care, it will still stab the ------- through the heart(RIP Steve Irwin), and that is a professional, so reality check 10 year old kid tackling insanely dangerous animals, what are the odds, then again you don't want to get my point.

You accepted that Haruhi simply cannot be conveyed in words, yet you still cling on that one fact that it is setted in high school that you assume it is immature and therefore will not watch it? I'm not sure how mature you yourself are, cause you don't seem to be open for suggestions and cling on to something that really could have been anything, ranging from corporate life to a broken down old restaurant, but you just won't see past that, makes me feel like I'm talking to the wind.
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:30 PM   #11   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
I labelled you a troll because I can't imagine anyone actually trying to push Pokemon above Suzumiya Haruhi. It looks just like someone teasing fanboys and pushing the level of outrageousness just to see when the fanboy will catch on.
Trolls don't give logically sound arguments. Why do you find it so fantastical that Pokemon could be more mature than Haruhi? It's not as if Haruhi is famed for its maturity now, is it?

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
I believe your environment comparisons are superficial because almost no anime address actual environmental conditions. Few if any acknowledge the way extremely bright hot sun and dry air makes a person go through copious amounts of water. Few will address how sticky and unpleasant a highly humid environment is. Its all very much like you'll find in WoW: Characters never get cold (unless its a plot device), never get heatstroke etc.
I disagree with this because the environment does set out what activities the characters are capable of. You don't get people swimming out at sea if there's a violent storm raging in the background, but you do see people swimming near the beach if it's a bright and sunny day. For example, you see Ash doing some surfing when on a sunny day, but when the skies began to darken with anger, he stopped. In a Pokemon episode set in a snow-storm, Ash, Jessie and James all expressed their pain at the freezing temperatures, and Ash was in real danger of getting hypothermia. In another episode, Ash and friends were inside a volcano and became visibly hot.

This points to the fact that the environment often restricts the possible behaviour of the characters and the events that can take place. This is a fundamental constraint on the plot. You don't expect people to take a dip in an icy lake. You don't expect diplomats discussing world politics in high-school.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
Simply changing the background on the scene does not make something more mature. MacBeth was pretty much set ENTIRELY in a castle, it did not need to go outside to make its point (aside from visiting the witches or whatever).
You're right, simply changing the background does not instantly give maturity. But for Pokmeon, the wide variety of settings is often central to the plot. The ship episode couldn't have happened anywhere else because it required a ship capsizing; the ancient ruins episode relied on the presence of ancient ruins to house treasures; the race course was pivotal in providing a setting where the protagonists could race each other; the beach was necessary to provide a setting where they meet a surfer that dared to ride one of the biggest waves of the year; the boxing/MMA ring was necessary for a boxing/MMA Pokemon competition to take place etc etc.

There is an intrinsic link between background and plot in almost every instance in Pokemon, such that the wide variety of backgrounds is not superfluous and instead broadens the scope and depth of storylines available. This is what expands the viewer's mind.

Sure, you can have in-depth plots where the background stays the same, but that requires a skilled story-writer. And you can't seriously compare anime writers to Shakespeare.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
For anime that stay within high school but address big themes?

GTO (sometimes he is in the city, and it ends in Okinawa, the rest is all on schoolgrounds in his class or near his apartment).
Kare Kano - pretty much everything happened at school
Vampire Knight - not generally my type of anime, but another school based anime which had big plot arcs all set within school boundaries.
And what big themes does GTO, Kare Kano and Vampire Knight address? How to pass high school exams and how to date girls?

But to get back on topic, what big themes does Haruhi address? We're not talking about the likes of GTO or Kare Kano here.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
I can't really focus at the moment, but a lack of variation in environment is not immature so therefore a variation in environment is not mature. In fact, its childrens shows that will most often change location/scene because kids arent affected by wondering how they magically got there, why they're there, etc. Anime like Haibane Renmei deliberately restrict the environment.
I agree that a lack of variation in background does not necessarily equate to immaturity. But I'm looking at Haruhi and I'm looking at its lack of background variation in combination with its lack of big issues being addressed (as manifested in its plot, which is constrained by the choice of the setting of high school). This combination is what leads me to think Haruhi is less mature than Pokemon, as opposed to just the lack of background variation per se.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki View Post
I am thankful I saw the anime long after the show. I could not understand why Pikachu was his favourite, I didn't think much of the pokemon.
I think it's probably the emotional, historical bond Ash and Pikachu has, since this mouse was his first Pokemon. Also, Pikachu always seems willing to put its body on the line for Ash, and vice versa, resulting in deep mutual respect. Besides, it could be worse - the show's creators apparently wanted Jigglypuff to be the main Pokemon. That would be horrendous.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
You are saying that pokemon is mature because it does not deal with death and people don't really get hurt, unless getting hurled through the skies almost every episodes is something we regularly do on a daily basis(just an example, I could have said electricfied, roast or whatever).
I'm saying Pokemon is mature because it tackles real life issues such as social necessity (Brock) and overcoming adversity (Ash), takes place in a variety of locations that are intrinsically linked to the plot, deals with real life emotions such as courage and determination, and has intelligent storylines.

So what if nothing dies in Pokemon? Ash and several Pokemon were at death's door on several occasions, which gives a hint of death. I never said people and Pokemon never get hurt - both Ash and Pikachu certainly got hurt in the first episode, and as mentioned, Jessie and James nearly drowned.

Remember what the thread topic is about: we're not trying to prove the maturity of Pokemon with respect to anime such as Cowboy Bebop or Macross, we're talking about whether Pokemon is more mature than Haruhi. Does Haruhi even touch on the issue of death like Pokemon does? Well, does it?

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Like said before, you name all these places they visit but it rarely ever has any significance except for the pokemon that lives there.
Surely you should know (having played the game) that Pokemon have different types and that the habitat in part determines what types are found? This makes the specific location of paramount importance in determining what Pokemon can be found. Caterpie and Bulbasaur, being a bug and a grass type respectively, were found in the forest by Ash, as befits their types. Water pokemon (e.g., Lapras) were only found by Ash in the water, Ghost pokemon were found by Ash and co. residing in a haunted tower, the fire Pokemon Magma was only found within a volcano and MewTwo originated from a research lab because it was genetically engineered by humans, and so on. And the type of Pokemon found is fundamental to the plot in each episode: e.g., Lapras, by virtue of being a water Pokemon, was able to save Ash from drowning.

So your claim does not hold under critical scrutiny.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
I do have to make a note, that it still is over the top that somehow a 10 year old, could walk to antarctic one day
It wasn't Antarctica, it was just a region where a snow-storm hit. He was with Brock and Misty, and had help from his Pokemon, so it's not too far-fetched.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
and spent another on expensive cruise with no parental guidance
This is another example of good story-telling - the tickets were too expensive, but Jessie and James gave Ash and co. free tickets to trick them onto the ship (Jessie and James could afford the tickets because they are part of a well-funded criminal organisation), which would subsequently be assaulted by Team Rocket agents. Brock could probably qualify as an adult.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
and not to mention how a simple small town boy could get the funding to travel around the world like that,
He had help from Brock (effectively an adult), Misty, his Pokemon, Professor Oak, his Pokedex and the Jenny's and Joy's of the world. Why would Ash and co. need funding when they can live predominantly off wild produce? Also, Ash's mother probably gave him a wad of cash before he set off and Brock probably has a chequebook or credit card or something, seeing as they can buy stuff like bread and rice.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
let alone that a 10 year old would have never survived the antarctic or able to climb the top of some mountains, total disregards to reality for the sake of incorperating the scenery into the plot,
a) Ash didn't go to Antarctica and he had help from his friends and Pokemon - as mentioned above.

b) Ash didn't climb mountains; whenever he goes to a elevated location, he would walk along a path with a relatively small gradient. Not too difficult at all and does not contradict reality in any way. Teenagers in real life can walk up a mountain if the path is shallow enough (e.g., Ben Nevis).

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
tell me how mature is that.
I've shown that all the "problematic" issues you raised are actually consistent with reality.

Now can you say the same about Haruhi and flipping time-travellers and aliens from other dimensions? How mature is that? Sounds like the bloody kids' story The Demon Headmaster or something.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Atleast in Haruhi they tell kids that if you want something you have to work for it, in pokemon everything is given to you by awfully nice people.
Ash had to work incredibly hard to earn his badges, even risking his own life on several occasions. Also, he actually lost in the Indigo League in series 1, so Pokemon teaches people that even if you burst a blood vessel you are not guaranteed to succeed. This teaches humility and tells you that nothing is certain in life.

Does Haruhi tell you that failure is a real possibility or is it just another anime where the heroine achieves her dreams in the end? Not very realistic if that's the case, is it?

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Then there is this very convenience handheld computer that would put a startrek tricorder to shame, talking about video conferencing(through satellites connections I bet cause they are connected anywhere on the planet), navigations, bio scanner, data recorder and tip of the iceberg it even has a library of all the pokemons, type, habitat,their evolutions and even their favorite food eventhough these pokemon were the reasons ash was supposed to investigate in the first place, why bother going out at all, the thing seems to be all knowing when it comes to pokemons.
That is such an exaggeration and you know it. The "video-conferencing" you speak of is simply a phone with a video-screen attached, for homes that have this facility (which probably works like a web-cam). If I recall correctly, only Professor Oak was seen to use this video-screen, and that's only normal because as a prof, he can buy the latest technology using his lab funds. As for the Pokedex, it is a pretty primitive device that stores a bunch of data and scans and recognises Pokemon (probably by comparing to an existing database). Hardly cutting-edge stuff - just a small advance on the Pokedex you can buy in reality from Argos or Walmart. Apart from this, Ash and friends had to rely on maps for navigation, as well as the help of regular transport such as ships and hot-air balloons.

Ash's raison d'etre is not to find new facts about Pokemon (that's Prof. Oak's job), but to collect badges and take part in the Indigo League. That's why he set out.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
And really now, pikachu choosing not to evolved into a more powerfull state, with better attacks and defense, what was the reasoning behind that, I would have dropped it like its hot. That is like so you can be superman but would you rather stay as clark kent and then choosing for the latter one. As a trainer I would have been thoroughly pissed.
Takahashi, have you actually seen the episode? Pikachu refused to evolve because it was happy with the way it was and felt no need to change its appearance just to pander to other people's desires. And in the end, Ash's Pikachu beat Lt. Serge's evolved Pikachu (Raichu), so your argument that Ash should have been pissed is wrong, because in the end Pikachu used its advantages to win (speed and agility) without the need to evolve. And more importantly, it won by retaining its integrity and by exercising its free will. This episode is also a prescient warning to people in modern society not to bow down to peer pressure and to stand up for yourself, to be an individual that will never come to pass again, and to cherish your individual existence. A clear link to philosophical existentialism.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
You keep refuting that pokemon are not dangerous if you treat them right, that my friend is a very immature impression you got there of how the world should work, reality rarely works that way, this only happens in fantasy sugarcoated world where everybody lives happily ever after and even the dumbass badguys deserve some kind compassions.
We're talking about man's relationship to animals (Pokemon) here, not man's relationship to man. If we're talking about human relationships, then Pokemon shows that bad guys do not always deserve compassion, because Team Rocket regularly get a fierce beating and e.g., Brock man-handled a bad trainer. Pokemon doesn't just sugar-coat this issue.

Rather, Pokemon's respect message is relevant to the relationship between man and beast, and since man has so much power over wild animals, humans as a species are not threatened in any way by them. Instead, we are a major threat to many other species as well as their habitats, which was what I meant by the fragile biosphere. Pokemon teaches us the conservation approach: respect nature and reap its rewards, rather than bludgeon it to death, possibly leading to long-term losses. For example, if you kill all the fish in a lake in one go, then you're not going to get any more fish in the next year. Pokemon teaches us the ethos of sustainability.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
You can try and treat a stingray with the utmost respect, awe and care, it will still stab the ------- through the heart(RIP Steve Irwin), and that is a professional, so reality check 10 year old kid tackling insanely dangerous animals, what are the odds, then again you don't want to get my point.
There's no proof that Steve Irwin treated the stingray with the utmost respect, let alone awe and care. How do you know he didn't dick around and ---- off the stingray, especially considering how rare deaths by stingrays are? Have you ever seen some of his TV shows? He bloody goes hyperactive and jumps on animals like a lunatic all the time.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
You accepted that Haruhi simply cannot be conveyed in words,
No I didn't.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
yet you still cling on that one fact that it is setted in high school that you assume it is immature and therefore will not watch it?
I gave 3 reasons in my initial post as to why I think Pokemon was more mature. And nobody has given me a good reason why the storyline in Haruhi is more mature than that in Pokemon - remember that I gave 5 episodes where the Pokemon anime showed maturity, and more importantly, detailed why what was shown demonstrated maturity. Can you do that for Haruhi? It doesn't look like it, because you've avoided giving more details under the excuse that it's too difficult to put into words. But if I can explain Pokemon in such depth, why can't you for Haruhi? Haruhi's not exactly a really deep, ineffable anime.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
I'm not sure how mature you yourself are, cause you don't seem to be open for suggestions and cling on to something that really could have been anything, ranging from corporate life to a broken down old restaurant, but you just won't see past that, makes me feel like I'm talking to the wind.
You haven't given me good reasons why Haruhi is more mature than Pokemon; that's all there is to it, Taka ... nothing more and nothing less. If you come up with some good reasons, then I will be forced to change my mind.

Until then, and in light of the fact I have successfully countered all of your arguments thus far, the objective fact is that Pokemon is more mature than Haruhi.

And that's the bottom line. .

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Old 04-07-2009, 08:05 PM   #12   [permalink]
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Like I said before I don't really care whether you watch it or not, I'm not here to convince you of anything, if you wish to stay in your little box of pokemon, digimon, bayblade and you're happy with it, good for you. Don't be an @ss about it and ask people to convince you if you are not willing to meet anyone halfway.

ps. You did agree with me, when I gave you that example about pokemon being about raising, training and fighting rodent, words does not covers all, doubly so for Haruhi.

pps. you seem to be ranting about sh!t you haven't even seen yet, cause clearly you have never seen GTO, nor karekano and obviously Haruhi as well.

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Old 04-07-2009, 08:30 PM   #13   [permalink]
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Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Like I said before I don't really care whether you watch it or not, I'm not here to convince you of anything, if you wish to stay in your little box of pokemon, digimon, bayblade and you're happy with it, good for you.
I've watched plenty of anime series apart from Pokemon, Digimon and Beyblade. My box has well and truly been slashed open. .

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
Don't be an @ss about it and ask people to convince you if you are not willing to meet anyone halfway.
How am I being an ass? All I'm doing is constructing logical arguments. Also, why should I meet someone half-way if that person doesn't give a good reason for me to meet half-way, especially when I have logically countered all arguments that person has offered? Like you said, in reality, not everybody lives happily ever after. .

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
ps. You did agree with me, when I gave you that example about pokemon being about raising, training and fighting rodent, words does not covers all, doubly so for Haruhi.
Here's what I said:
Originally Posted by me
Yes, if you go to a random website, you may think that Pokemon is immature. But I've detailed very carefully why it is much more than training and fighting with some rodent. I've shown that the series touches on so many aspects of real life and by virtue of that, gives a good sense of maturity.
I stated that random websites don't give a detailed impression of Pokemon, but that I did. I was challenging you to see if you can do likewise for Haruhi, but you came up short on this.

Originally Posted by Takahashi View Post
pps. you seem to be ranting about sh!t you haven't even seen yet, cause clearly you have never seen GTO, nor karekano and obviously Haruhi as well.
Well, if Pengi can give good arguments as to how GTO and Kare Kano address big themes, then I'm all ears, Takahashi. I wasn't ranting, just asking him to clarify his viewpoint. .
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Old 05-07-2009, 12:37 AM   #14   [permalink]
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Pokemon needs to change background because it uses themes for its creature design. That does not make it any more deep than an anime like S.E.L where a girl will sit in a dark room most of the time. Pokemon could be viewed as mature if it touched more on the topic of why these animals are being made to fight each other in the first place. Instead we get a magical magical explanation of how to heal them, how to store them, and even their fights are quite ridiculous. Pikachu wouldnt need to put his life on the line if Ash wasnt out there making him.

It could have easily taught children about responsibility, like feeding and sheltering your pet..rather than having it all done electronically. A "Pet on Demand", something I've noticed a lot of modern children want.

Suzumiya Haruhi deals with questions and conventions surrounding what life is and has to be. Her energy is right there, and her childlisk curiousity and passion for the world is what makes her her. I'm not saying its making any deep commentary on what the ego is ala NGE, but it is certainly challenging the convention that you should just lead a boring life filled with a bunch of things scheduled that you're not particularly interested in. It is a metaphor perhaps. She is bored, therefore she gets up and does something about it. She isn't certain of her reality, so she makes attempts to prove or disprove it.
The main male character is the one we'll sympathise with the most because his views are the most normal and common sense. Could anyone really argue that the world he was in before (as us, in our world) was better than the one Suzumiya Haruhi was demonstrating?

As for GTO, actually I think its the lightest attempt at discussing modern teaching/education issues. Bullying is one thing it goes in depth in. Most shows will just have the bully as some big dumb kid and leave it at that. They don't go into whether that kid knows how much damage he is doing, why he is doing it etc. They don't normally address female bullying either. I can honestly say that if I'd had a teacher I trusted at my school the way they trust GTO, my life would've turned out very very differently. Unfortunately, for a lot of us, GTO without GTO is a picture of the reality we face. There are other anime dealing with bullying, but they're much darker. Kodomo no Jikan and live action Battle Royale are two I can think of immediately. (Kodomo No Omacha skims by too).

Kare Kano is indeed mature. It is less about the mushy stage of romance and addresses the difficulties people have in determining who they are, what they want, and how to communicate these things. The two main characters became a couple immediately, something you'll not often find in or outside of anime..simply because the chase/flirting etc is far more interesting and easy to cover. There are not many movies, TV shows or Books that will try to cover what its like to live day by day in a serious relationship. Kare Kano does that, remarkably by using lots of flashbacks etc.

I still think you're taking the ---- btw.

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Old 05-07-2009, 03:48 AM   #15   [permalink]
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I gave you plenty of examples of plotlines that pokemon would not even dare tread, but then you raged on like a bull that just saw me raise a red flag and calls it immature this and immature that, without even considering that it would have been an interesting thing to watch. Just out of curiousity, why would you give pokemon, a very lame kiddies anime the benefit of the doubt, but turns around and be totally anal about haruhi, immature or not it is an good anime?

I don't care how many cooked up fact you're going to bring, in the end when ever I watch a pokemon episode it looks childish, immature and boring. Mind boggling how stupid it make me feel at the end of each episode for watching it.
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